blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Sod off, hippie.
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Rumor: Wii U final specs
- Thread starter EatChildren
- Start date
You aren't the only person they are targeting to sell to. So yea, you can wait.
Anyway, this thread has been spiralling down the drain a bit now. In about a months time, gaming journalistic outlets will get their hands on WiiU to open it up and post pictures of the chips. I am certain they already possess a few WiiU's but under NDA to reveal the tech specs.
Smiles and Cries
Member
ghost in the machines and spooky flops
Just how awesome WiiU is and then not so awesome followed by " no no it's awesum, you know nuttin' " bla bla
It's all about the GPU and it's potential etc etc.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
I'm sure that will be very exciting.
Ahh so pretty much people speculating if it uses the rumored GPU or not.
Saint Gregory
Member
Kind of OT but in the general train of thought; Did we ever find out the full specs of the Hollywood GPU? I'm just wondering if a teardown of the WiiU will be enough to settle the speculation or if a full technical leak from Nintendo or AMD would be the only way to settle things.
Fourth Storm
Member
I do think our disagreements are quite minor. Let me try to clarify my position, however. Firstly, no I don't have a list of all the changes they made from DX 10.1 to DX 11. Nor do I care to research it at the moment. Besides, those 2 advances, they do seem minor. We both agree (and I take Arkam's word) that the GPU is capable of beyond SM4. In general, I expect that Nintendo's customizations took a different path to the same end than that of AMD's more recent cards. So tessellation, for instance, could end up running with lower/equal/higher efficiency than a "proper" DX 11 GPU in any given scenario. We don't know yet. When I said some features might be used more sparingly, that's just common sense when thinking about the upcoming generation. The next Xbox and PS will be able to get away with more effects at once while maintaining a playable framerate. It could be SM4 level or SM5 - there will be a performance gap. It's just with the latter, we don't know yet how efficient Nintendo's modifications have been compared to the standard or what they've deemed important enough to include. I don't think it will be SM5 in everything but name. I expect some things will be missing, but I also doubt anybody will really care in the end outside of a few techies like you and I.
I think you're being a bit too liberal w/ your usage of "DX11," but I see what you're saying.
I agree that if we're talking FLOPS, 2-3x is about what I expect. I made the point because you stated something as fact, when that is not clear (other sources say 1.5x). Meanwhile, the specs leak (while not telling the whole story) has been confirmed by multiple parties as being accurate. And that tells us what they were targeting in terms of features and where they started from. And I may as well use this to address your point below since I want to get off this computer and take advantage of the beautiful weather outside. But those target specs are what lead me to believe that perhaps the e6760 is not such a great comparison. I don't expect the ALU count to be the same (although they may be, I'm hoping for 640), I expect the clocks to be lower, and remember: It's all about that eDRAM.
bgassassin
Member
Smiles and Cries
Member
those will be in Nintendo's next next next gen
The Wii U only has one GPU!?!?!?, and the Wii U isn't able to produce Avatar graphics?, WOW Nintendo cheaps out again.
troll face
CaptNfantasy... you're my favorite poster in GAF right now. I don't know how you manage to pull those words together with such clarity. I am convinced that you are a wizard and that you have a magic string that pulls us all together, to face the darkness and the heathens of the underworld.
DaSorcerer7
Member
Ok dude, let me stop you right there, I'm the only real Sorcerer around here.
There are 7 sorcerers and you are the 7th. CaptNfantasy is the true and original sorcerer.
DaSorcerer7
Member
WTF~<#%%#%^%<
Trevelyan9999
Banned
Pffff.....forget that. I was expecting Tri SLi GTX 680's with liquid cooling.
I think we can see that designing, producing and selling a console in this market is really becoming extremely difficult. IMO Nintendo is making a wise choice in having the Wii U be cost effective yet extremely capable with graphical effects and features.
I sure as hell don't want to have the next generation going the way of streaming games to your TV like some kind Neflix Instant Stream Gaming subscription. Depending on bandwidth just to see a clear image of your game at all times would really be lame.....
I would think the eDRAM is actually either part of the CPU die or a separate die. Either way, it's most likely IBM made 45nm SoI. I mean, there was this interesting statement by Bob Patti, CTO of Tezzaron Semiconductors, a few months ago:
http://semimd.com/blog/2012/07/31/the-changing-role-of-the-osat/
The specs talk, while not entirely uninteresting, is sometimes getting a bit too far. Current gen level graphics is tolerable in my eyes so I don't see why it is a big issue for so many people that the Wii U is there (or somewhere slightly above). PS360 have been a joke in the graphical department for years, with people calling them "HD" twins making the joke even more funny, and still their owners didn't sell them or stop using them, they played games on them and didn't care about all the progress that the GPU industry might have made in the meantime. Point is, even today the PS360 visuals don't limit the actual experience too much with lack of detail or anything like that (you know, when not enough information fits on the screen or you can't tell if it's a rock or an enemy on the horizon). I play mostly on Wii so I know that it can really hurt to have those limitations accented by not having enough power. Wii U could probably cost 200 USD if it wasn't for the new controller, or it could have some PC-rivaling tech inside for the same price, but I'm happy that it didn't turn out that way.
I asked a couple questions about 15 pages ago(see how patient I am?)...
But got no answer/response. I know this thread can move pretty fast at times, but I'm getting the impression that these roller-coaster debates are consuming you guys. So much so that sincere questions are being overlooked/disregarded. I'd love to be proven wrong though...
Anyway, if anyone cares to help me... my questions are in the link below:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=42365465&highlight=#post42365465
*fingers crossed*
But got no answer/response. I know this thread can move pretty fast at times, but I'm getting the impression that these roller-coaster debates are consuming you guys. So much so that sincere questions are being overlooked/disregarded. I'd love to be proven wrong though...
Anyway, if anyone cares to help me... my questions are in the link below:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=42365465&highlight=#post42365465
*fingers crossed*
We don't know what the eDRAM is or what purpose it has. It's impossible to answer your question with the info we have. Could be anywhere from a few dozen to several hundred GB/s. To put things into perspective: POWER7 has a regular memory bandwidth of 180GB/s per chip - and that's just the DDR3 RAM, not the eDRAM.
phosphor112
Banned
I know nothing of edram bandwidths.. but bump quoting just for you <3
Ok, gotcha! I'm hoping they use it in a similar way GameCube did.. not just for a framebuffer? Hmmm, I wonder if they could also use it in a way that benefits general purpose processing significantly(similar to CPU cache?).
Cheers mate!
chertipros
Member
Random Question: What is EDRAM and what will the wii u most likely use it for
DragonSworne
Banned
BC is done entirely in hardware, so that means that all the WiiU components have to be able to "do" the same stuff the Wii components did.
Embedded DRAM, it's embedded on the CPU/GPU. Depends. It can be accessed much faster and can provide impressive bandwidth. Could be used for loading certain data that has to be loaded very frequently and make up for slower main RAM. Could also be used for AA, but i'm not a techie so people feel free to add or correct.
I think it's neither a CPU cache nor a framebuffer. I have a theory, but it's probably all kinds of wrong (and stupid), as that stuff isn't really my area of expertise. We have quite a few people on GAF who know a whole lot more about this than I do, and they'll probably laugh at me, but here it goes: I think the eDRAM is meant to be a fast, low latency scratchpad for both the CPU and the GPU, (mostly) meant to make GPGPU operations more efficient. A buffer for high speed data exchange between CPU and GPU to prevent stalls, basically.
DragonSworne
Banned
The biggest benefit the EDRAM provides is lower power consumption.
Come on people, you should know this by now.
Come on people, you should know this by now.
snowdog1971
Banned
I agree, if either Sony or Microsoft have their next gen efforts retailing for more than $400 they're going to struggle. Especially when you consider that Nintendo will have system selling first party titles such as Mario Kart, a 3D Mario, Retro's new game and Monolith Soft's new games waiting in the wings in an attempt to scupper their launches.
There's always a slim chance that this time next year that the economy worldwide might be in a better state but I certainly wouldn't expect it myself. If they release their consoles for a pricepoint higher than $400 I can't see them flying off shelves no matter what sort of software they have available at launch.
Yeah that worked really well for Sony right when they expected people to get 2nd jobs to fund a PS3...yeah those people can't sustain a console's software sales which is what Sony hinges it's hopes on when they sell a console at a loss.
Fact is there exists a price barrier for console's...that barrier seems to be $350 at the top end which is begrudgingly acceptable. The real expectation and hope of the consumer though is at $299.
Stick to WiiU
Yeah that worked really well for Sony right when they expected people to get 2nd jobs to fund a PS3...yeah those people can't sustain a console's software sales which is what Sony hinges it's hopes on when they sell a console at a loss.
Fact is there exists a price barrier for console's...that barrier seems to be $350 at the top end which is begrudgingly acceptable. The real expectation and hope of the consumer though is at $299.
Gahiggidy
My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
What and where are those rumors? I missed that.
Smiles and Cries
Member
Pach-Attack?
Hey bgassasin, appreciate if you could answer this one question.
In regards to the CPU, have your sources commented on its capabilities?
Previous insiders have commented that the Wii U's CPU is weak in comparison to the HD Twins, and there's also a few developers who have publically have made comments suggesting this is indeed the case. We recently had the Ninja Gaiden devs saying the Wii U version has less on screen enemies then the PS3/60 due to its processor.
What is the likely cause of these sorts of comments:
Developers running unoptimised code on the Wii U
Devleopers failing to take advantage of GPGPU and other hardware that could perform these tasks or lighten CPU load
The Wii U's processor is indeed inferior in most regards to the Xenon and Cell processors.
Middleware and development tools not yet optimised enough for developers to take advantage of the CPU's power
In regards to the CPU, have your sources commented on its capabilities?
Previous insiders have commented that the Wii U's CPU is weak in comparison to the HD Twins, and there's also a few developers who have publically have made comments suggesting this is indeed the case. We recently had the Ninja Gaiden devs saying the Wii U version has less on screen enemies then the PS3/60 due to its processor.
What is the likely cause of these sorts of comments:
Developers running unoptimised code on the Wii U
Devleopers failing to take advantage of GPGPU and other hardware that could perform these tasks or lighten CPU load
The Wii U's processor is indeed inferior in most regards to the Xenon and Cell processors.
Middleware and development tools not yet optimised enough for developers to take advantage of the CPU's power
That's what I meant when I said:
"I wonder if they could also use it in a way that benefits general purpose processing significantly(similar to CPU cache?)."
I was referring to general purpose processing (on the GPU...similar to how a CPU uses cache). I know, I didn't make that extremely clear. Sorry.
It'll be really interesting if they did use it that way though. From what I understand, not even current high-end PC GPU's would have that ability, right?
Glorified G
Member
Yeah that worked really well for Sony right when they expected people to get 2nd jobs to fund a PS3...yeah those people can't sustain a console's software sales which is what Sony hinges it's hopes on when they sell a console at a loss.
Fact is there exists a price barrier for console's...that barrier seems to be $350 at the top end which is begrudgingly acceptable. The real expectation and hope of the consumer though is at $299.
That may be your personal price barrier, doesn't mean millions of others won't disagree with you. I personally think anyone is batshit to pay $350 for a Wii U, in context that doesn't mean anything.
The Ninja Gaiden devs didn't say that, I believe it was one of the Koei teams doing Warriors Orochi, those same devs also said they didn't understand the hardware and that the machine could produce much more beautiful graphics than the other consoles.
lwilliams3
Member
It should also be noted that both Namco and Koei, the two companies that pubically stated that they were having trouble with the CPU, are Japanese developers and more than likely made the game engine for the PS3 first. The PS3 is very CPU-oriented, which is apparently the opposite of the Wii U.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Nothing to laugh at here. But you're missing one detail: if we agree that the main pool is DDR3, then it makes a lot of sense for the GPU to keep its fb (not necessarily in its entirety) in the edram pool. Historically, platforms which did not use any form of local fb but instead stored their fb directly in UMA space suffered from some serious memory contention issues (case in point: xbox).
Regardless, I think the edram will be used both as a GPU scratchpad as well as act as a low latency conduit between the CPU and GPU. That's why one of the architecture details I'm most curious about is how AMD solved any potential CPU/GPU contention issues in that pool.
Pretty sure it's not lower power consumption than not having any...
If that's a benefit, it has to be compared to an alternative.
The leaked devkit specsheet specifically mentioned a tesselator. Given the fact that Nintendo A/ is building a custom chip which was finished early 2012 B/ always provides very efficient hardware C/ is not likely to spend money on useless features ... i would think the tesselator should actually be usable compared to the one in the 360.
It is my personal barrier yes...nor am I alone though...look at the history of console pricing...
360 $299
Wii $249
Xbox $299
PS2 $299
GCN $199
Dreamcast $199
N64 $199
PS1 $299
SNES $199
Megadrive $189
NES $199
The anomalies in history are PS3 at $599, Saturn $399, Neo Geo $649 and 3DO at $699...and they all bombed at launch.
There is a reason that you don't go over $299...it's historical a precedent has been set...to break down the $299 will take something special and Sony tried by converging different technology but it only worked for the PS2. The perceived value of a console has not shifted from generation to generation...and we'll continue to want our console's at $299 even if it's the basic and gimped version.