Support NeoGAF

[Kriken]

If sakurai was painting a picture I totally get this argument. 100%.

He isn't. He is making sequels to games while belittling people who rightfully criticize him dropping portions of game they liked or adding in game modes that no one wanted.

"Rightfully criticize him"

You mean agreeing with a childish claim from someone saying he accidentally made a good game?

The irony is too much

Edit: Maybe I worded that improperly, but agreeing with "he accidentally made something good" and following it up with "rightful criticism" just really devalues said criticisms.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

I think "received the most critical acclaim and sales" is a bit disingenuous.

For sales, Brawl was released on a system that has higher sales than Melee and Smash 4's combined and Melee and Smash 4 both have really strong attach rates on weaker systems.

For critical acclaim, I think it's important to see what reviewers are going to value due to the nature of their job. Most of them don't have time to delve deep into multiplayer due to the requirements of their job and the fact that they'll have to get into another game quickly so deep mechanics and balance aren't that important unless they're incredibly out-of-whack. Reviewers don't care that Meta Knight is broken because they'll never be playing at a level where he's too strong.

What they are going to care about is breadth of content and single player content, since that's easy to evaluate quickly and without much investment. Brawl's roster had hype third party characters and some other newcomers so it's not stale or the same roster. Similarly, Brawl had robust single-player campaign, which is more content and easy to finish and evaluate.

This isn't to say reviewers weren't honest, but that they often have different priorities from people engaging heavily with the game and to people who'd spent hundreds of hours with Melee Brawl didn't hold up. If Smash was for parties when you had some people over and want wacky fun, of course Brawl is "better" because you have more characters and stages and items. Melee provides a fine/good party game too, but it's less good the less you care about mechanics. Also I'm nowhere near competitive at Melee and can't do any advanced techniques, but still appreciate them and enjoy the feel of playing it more than Brawl or 4 (though I do love 4 a quite a bit)

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

Every creator needs someone to keep him in line at least a little bit, or else every single idea is being thrown out there and implemented and you end up with a mess.

Miyamoto understands this, and that's probably why HE is the 'No!" man. Kojima needed a "No!" man with MGS4 and 5. They both had issues with story and plot.

Sakurai should understand this.

 

[Nickle]

Melee was a mistake, it's nothing but a party game

 

[SuperLeviathan]

Wouldn't this more-or-less cripple the first wave of NX hardware? Granted, maybe Nintendo could get away with Smash 5 borrowing heavily from Smash 4 & adding more from there, but I'm not sure if a Smash 4 re-release alone would be enough.

If the rumors of the NX console and handheld having a "shared library" are true, then a remaster could basically take the place of the portable version.

I imagine it'd be easier to do a remaster and Smash 5 than having to do two versions of Smash 5 for each form factor again, and Smash 5 would benefit by getting all the new stuff instead of it being split unevenly between console and handheld. I'd be in favor of a Smash 5 where every franchise gets a new stage, and has both a solid single and multiplayer mode, instead of one version having one and the other having the other.

Even a New Hope had an outside editor brought in and a few other creative people to tell George Lucas "No" on the direction of the movie.

You mean like Lucas' ex-wife, who he has basically tried to Stalin out of the history of Star Wars.

 

[MrCunningham]

So basically what he is saying is that he would like to see more games that feel like they aren't designed by a committee to please a group of shareholders, and more games that are designed by creators with a singular vision. Yeah I guess so.

The Star War's prequel trilogy were the movies that George Lucas had the most control over as a creator (outside of his first two non-Star Wars movies). Even a New Hope had an outside editor brought in and a few other creative people to tell George Lucas "No" on the direction of the movie. But with the prequels, there was nobody there to tell George Lucas otherwise. He made those movies exactly the way he wanted to see them with no outside influence, and that was exactly how they were made. It was a bold move I will give it that... but with no outside voices to second guess his ideas.... we ended up with the Star War's prequels... the movies that soured everyone on the franchise and put Lucas in a position to sell it all off to Disney.

Now, The Force Awakens in contrast does feel more like a design by committee movie... As in: "make it like the original trilogy movies that everybody loved, Mr. Abrams". With that said, JJ. Abrams still had a lot control over the project, and the final film was great, I enjoyed it. But I still did get the feeling that Abrams was still restricted to the confines of making this "a Star Wars movie" and he didn't have complete control to take the movie in any direction that he desired. So the movie ended up being JJ's mixtape of his favorite Star Wars moments, remixed and remastered. The type of movie that the fans were begging for.

But at the same time... it was a great movie and a movie that I enjoyed more than any of the prequels.

 

[R0ckman]

So basically what he is saying is that he would like to see more games that feel like they aren't designed by a committee to please a group of shareholders, and more games that are designed by creators with a singular vision. Yeah I guess so.

The Star War's prequel trilogy were the movies that George Lucas had the most control over as a creator (outside of his first two movies). Even a New Hope had an outside editor brought in and a few other creative people to tell George Lucas "No" on the direction of the movie. But with the prequels, there was nobody there to tell George Lucas otherwise, he made those movies exactly the way he wanted to see them with no outside influence, and that was exactly how they were made. Which was a bold move I will give them that... but with no voices to second guess his ideas.... we ended up with the Star War's prequels... the movies that soured everyone on the franchise and put Lucas in a position to sell it all off to Disney.

Now, The Force Awakens in contrast does feel more like a design by committee movie... As in: "make it like the original trilogy movies that everybody loved, Mr. Abrams". With that said, JJ. Abrams still had a lot control over the project, and the final film was great, I enjoyed it. But I still did get the feeling that Abrams was still restricted to the confines of making this "A Star Wars movie" and he didn't have complete control to take the movie in any direction that he desired. So the movie ended up being JJ's mixtape of his favorite Star Wars moments.

But at the same time... it was a great movie and a movie that I enjoyed more than any of the prequels.

I don't understand, the average person isn't going to refuse to buy the game because a character is in or didn't get in. Heck not even the average but the majority will see Mario, Pikachu and Link on the cover and buy it. He's at a point where he can add whoever he wants, even obscures and it won't hurt a thing in the long run.

 

[Oblivion]

I wonder who will be JJ to Sakurai's Lucas.

Someone has to pick up the baton at some point. Hopefully Sakurai's training a successor.

Yeah it's something I thought of quite a bit, and it's going to be really interesting. I don't know if we've ever had a case like this for a major franchise. With Mario and Zelda, and the like, you always had people in the development team, with many years of experience working on those games being cultivated to take the reigns.

But Smash Bros. is a different beast. There were virtually no high level staff members that were involved in SSB64 and Melee that went on to work Brawl, and no major staff members from that who went on to work on SSB4.

The only other people who worked on as many games as Sakurai has would be a few guys from Hal. Yoichi Sukino was a designer on SSB64 and was assistant director on SSBM. Tsuyoshi Wakayama was lead designer on SSB64 and a designer on SSBM. There are of course, tons of other people at Hal who worked on both 64 and Melee, but these two are at the highest levels besides Sakurai. If anyone besides him knows how Smash works, it would be these guys, I'd figure. Of course, Sakurai seems to have some bad blood with Hal, so it doesn't seem likely he'd want either of these guys to take over.

Sad as it may be, Sakurai can't be doing this forever, and will need to hand over the reigns to someone at some point.

 

[Cerium]

Sad as it may be, Sakurai can't be doing this forever, and will need to hand over the reigns to someone at some point.

Hideki Kamiya.

Let Platinum develop it.

 

[Anteo]

"Rightfully criticize him"

You mean agreeing with a childish claim from someone saying he accidentally made a good game?

The irony is too much

Edit: Maybe I worded that improperly, but agreeing with "he accidentally made something good" and following it up with "rightful criticism" just really devalues said criticisms.

People that say melee was an accident refer to the depth of the game. Sakurai fully intended Melee's casual play, but the depth people found, the crazy stuff you can do with the engine is an accident. Its really a beatifull accident, a game able to support causal and competitive games alike 13 years after it's release ..

 

[Dimitri LH]

People that say melee was an accident refer to the depth of the game. Sakurai fully intended Melee's casual play, but the depth people found, the crazy stuff you can do with the engine is an accident.

Yep, just like how comboes in street fighter 2 were a accident that players discovered, it stuck and now all fighting games have em.


Looking at this thread, I cant tell wether or not people have accepted Smash 4 being a good game or not.......which baffles since it totally is.

 

[Anteo]

Yep, just like how comboes in street fighter 2 were a accident that players discovered, it stuck and now all fighting games have em..

And what did Sakurai do? Tripping, air dodge out of hit stun, etc

 

[Oblivion]

Wow, the more I think about it, the more the comparison of Sakurai with Lucas seems absolutely apt.

Both created a series that millions of people absolutely adore, both were responsible (more or less) for some of the best initial manifestations of their series (SSB64, Melee vs. ANH, TESB), and both go on to create subsequent movies/games that were highly unpopular, where they absolutely insist that these new changes are totally how they truly envisioned the series, and disown the previous games/movies they made as being mistakes.

Damn. They're like twins.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Wow, the more I think about it, the more the comparison of Sakurai with Lucas seems absolutely apt.

Both created a series that millions of people absolutely adore, both were responsible (more or less) for some of the best initial manifestations of their series (SSB64, Melee vs. ANH, TESB), and both go on to create subsequent movies/games that were highly unpopular, where they absolutely insist that these new changes are totally how they truly envisioned the series, and disown the previous games/movies they made as being mistakes.

Damn. They're like twins.

Highly unpopular lmao

Melee fantasists, man

 

[foxuzamaki]

I'd argue that people like that aren't really worth listening to. To them it's more of an exercise in narcissism than actually caring for the created work. A chance to stroke their own ego, more than anything else.

As a creator, you have to learn to focus on constructive criticism, not the entitled bullshit spewed by people who are so deluded as to think that they are owed anything beyond what was created. These people fundamentally misunderstand the relationship between creator and audience and elevate it to a personal level, at which criticism becomes worthless because it lacks any semblance of objectivity.

The larger a fanbase, the larger the percentage of such individuals, and Star Wars in particular is such a cultural phenomenon, that by sheer probability, the number of obnoxious blowhards becomes much larger in volume.
Couple that with the way the internet allows anyone to own their own soapbox to declare to the world how sophisticated and superior their opinion is, and it's easy to see how such a positive thing like fandom can turn into such misguided toxic behaviour.


I hope that Sakurai is able to find a balance to offset this emotional drain, otherwise I'd advise him to stop making Smash Bros, as it's simply not worth it to endure the constant onslaught of bullshit spewed by a vocal minority, that in all honesty, hasn't much to do with the creation, but their own sense of entitlement.

I completely agree

 

[Cerium]

Wow, the more I think about it, the more the comparison of Sakurai with Lucas seems absolutely apt.

Both created a series that millions of people absolutely adore, both were responsible (more or less) for some of the best initial manifestations of their series (SSB64, Melee vs. ANH, TESB), and both go on to create subsequent movies/games that were highly unpopular, where they absolutely insist that these new changes are totally how they truly envisioned the series, and disown the previous games/movies they made as being mistakes.

Damn. They're like twins.

Lucas had almost nothing to do with TESB. He didn't write it, he didn't direct it.

 

[JCX]

Wow, the more I think about it, the more the comparison of Sakurai with Lucas seems absolutely apt.

Both created a series that millions of people absolutely adore, both were responsible (more or less) for some of the best initial manifestations of their series (SSB64, Melee vs. ANH, TESB), and both go on to create subsequent movies/games that were highly unpopular, where they absolutely insist that these new changes are totally how they truly envisioned the series, and disown the previous games/movies they made as being mistakes.

Damn. They're like twins.

I wouldn't describe Brawl/4 as unpopular unless you mean just with the small percentage of competitive players. Otherwise spot on.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

Wow, the more I think about it, the more the comparison of Sakurai with Lucas seems absolutely apt.

Both created a series that millions of people absolutely adore, both were responsible (more or less) for some of the best initial manifestations of their series (SSB64, Melee vs. ANH, TESB), and both go on to create subsequent movies/games that were highly unpopular, where they absolutely insist that these new changes are totally how they truly envisioned the series, and disown the previous games/movies they made as being mistakes.

Damn. They're like twins.

Brawl, 3DS, and Wii U have collectively outsold 64 and Melee combined, received much critical acclaim, and competitive players are the extreme minority with many even respecting SSBU but simply preferring Melee. But all righty.

Lucas didn't direct ESB either.

 

[Oblivion]

Lucas had almost nothing to do with TESB. He didn't write it, he didn't direct it.

I know he didn't direct it, but he did create the story and oversee it at least. Sure, maybe not as deeply involved as he was in ANH, but was still a part of it.

 

[Coffee Dog]

I wouldn't describe Brawl/4 as unpopular unless you mean just with the small percentage of competitive players. Otherwise spot on.

You don't understand, the bugfest game with 5 viable characters is how smash is truly meant to be played

 

[Spinluck]

this guy.......this is the guy that gets it. +1 vote.

He's not wrong though. He absolutely hit the nail in the head (and not by accident).

Kind of crazy that soon the average Melee fan on the internet will be in their 30s whining about a game from like 15 years ago and discrediting the great game designers who made the game they are crying about in the first place.

Weird fans you all are. Aside from EVO, Melee can stay where it's at. It's full circle Star Wars, except that the consensus on Smash 4 is that it's fantastic unlike the prequels.

 

[Oblivion]

Brawl, 3DS, and Wii U have collectively outsold 64 and Melee combined, received much critical acclaim, and competitive players are the extreme minority with many even respecting SSBU but simply preferring Melee. But all righty.

Lucas didn't direct ESB either.

EPs 1, 2 and 3 also outsold Eps 4, 5, and 6 combined too.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

EPs 1, 2 and 3 also outsold Eps 4, 5, and 6 combined too.

1 and 2 got money but not much acclaim. Brawl and SSB4 (moreso the latter) received sales + acclaim from players and critics, SSBU even getting many GOTY awards and nominations. Big difference.

I can maybe accept loosely comparing Brawl to Phantom Menace, but throwing SSB4 under the bridge with it is kind of pushing the analogy when the general consensus is that it's superior. At the absolute worst it's Revenge of the Sith.

 

[blackadde]

You don't understand, the bugfest game with 5 viable characters is how smash is truly meant to be played

how many viable characters do you think there are in brawl?

 

[Coffee Dog]

EPs 1, 2 and 3 also outsold Eps 4, 5, and 6 combined too.

Prequel comparisons?

Why are you so defensive over the fact that the game you like is competitive on accident?

 

[Oblivion]

Come on guys, y'all know damn well I'm using "unpopular" to mean critically unpopular, not commercially unpopular.

And okay, maybe this doesn't apply to SSB4, but it definitely does to Brawl and the 3DS game.

 

[Spinluck]

EPs 1, 2 and 3 also outsold Eps 4, 5, and 6 combined too.

Smash 4 has reviewed the best out of the entire series. If we're going to use these arguments, let's not be willfully ignorant.

 

[Coffee Dog]

how many viable characters do you think there are in brawl?

Brawl was an absolute joke of a competitive game because it had so few viable characters. It's what you get when you take an imba party fighter to a competitive level.

 

[Vermillion]

Melee is a great game, but damn are (some of) its fans obnoxious as hell.

 

[Oblivion]

Prequel comparisons?

Why are you so defensive over the fact that the game you like is competitive on accident?

I think you're confusing my criticisms with someone else's?

 

[Azerare]

Brawl was an absolute joke of a competitive game because it had so few viable characters. It's what you get when you take an imba party fighter to a competitive level.

Didn't Sakurai mean to make brawl that way to make it less competitive. Only way melee became competitive was by accident.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

Melee is a great game, but damn are (some of) its fans obnoxious as hell.

Unlike people who tell them to "get over" the game they like and go play ones they don't because they're part of the same franchise?

 

[Azerare]

Unlike people who tell them to "get over" the game they like and go play ones they don't because they're part of the same franchise?

Melee fans are a lot more vocal than the bunch you mentioned. I see more melee "fans" (there are mostly good fans) slamming any smash game that isn't melee.

 

[jnWake]

It's funny how some people want to push the idea that Smash 4 is hated so badly. It's fine if people prefer Melee but, as of now, Smash 4 has a very healthy competitive community and, in my opinion, is very fun to watch and play.

 

[GSG Flash]

That comparison between SSB64/Melee being the original trilogy and SSBB/SSB4 being the prequel trilogy is spot on.

The prequels also have their share of fans. Heck, even I find them entertaining despite the bad acting and writing.

 

[Boss Doggie]

While I'd shake my head at the posts here I blame OP and misquoting and bolding shit for all the shitposting here.

Though I guess you get gems like the post above.

Also I find it funny a lot of folks here think Smash is the only thing Sakurai made

 

[Spinluck]

Unlike people who tell them to "get over" the game they like and go play ones they don't because they're part of the same franchise?

No one is telling them to play Smash 4 (at least from what I see).

Go play Melee, we just want the bitching to stop.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Unlike people who tell them to "get over" the game they like and go play ones they don't because they're part of the same franchise?

Smash 4 fans aren't the ones saying that the series has gone to shit after the series accidentally released one competitively viable game.

That comparison between SSB64/Melee being the original trilogy and SSBB/SSB4 being the prequel trilogy is spot on.

The prequels also have their share of fans. Heck, even I find them entertaining despite the bad acting and writing.

This is the most backhanded shit, lol. Melee is only superior from the standpoint of being a 1v1, competitive fighter, because it wasn't intended to be and the game released with a bunch of tools available for a select few fighters to give them a large skill ceiling over the other fighters.

 

[Oblivion]

Didn't Sakurai mean to make brawl that way to make it less competitive. Only way melee became competitive was by accident.

I'm assuming this is in reference to wavedashing, L-cancelling and the like?

Why do people keep saying this. I mean, yes, those things added to the complexity of the fights, but Melee was already pretty competitive before those things were discovered.

And that's what makes his rationale for Brawl so baffling. It's one thing if he wanted to get rid of those glitches. But he goes way beyond that and does a complete 180, becoming the exact antithesis of Melee. As if it was only around 2007 that he finally discovered that he could plug in lower numbers in the physics programming.

 

[Spinluck]

Didn't Sakurai mean to make brawl that way to make it less competitive. Only way melee became competitive was by accident.

Brawl was such a knee jerk reaction to competitive Melee unfortunately. Sakurai went overboard in closing the skill gap and ultimately made what is the weakest Smash game from a gameplay standpoint. I think he even states that Brawl could've been better, or something to that extent. Tripping was also s huge fuck you.

 

[MrSaturn99]

People that say melee was an accident refer to the depth of the game. Sakurai fully intended Melee's casual play, but the depth people found, the crazy stuff you can do with the engine is an accident. Its really a beatifull accident, a game able to support causal and competitive games alike 13 years after it's release ..

I get the impression this specific definition is at odds with the silly post that sparked the "accident" discussion.

 

[Ekai]

Wow, the more I think about it, the more the comparison of Sakurai with Lucas seems absolutely apt.

Both created a series that millions of people absolutely adore, both were responsible (more or less) for some of the best initial manifestations of their series (SSB64, Melee vs. ANH, TESB), and both go on to create subsequent movies/games that were highly unpopular, where they absolutely insist that these new changes are totally how they truly envisioned the series, and disown the previous games/movies they made as being mistakes.

Damn. They're like twins.

Dat Melee fan revisionist history. Brawl and Smash 4 are hugely popular and Smash 4 is often recognized as a combination of Brawl and Melee's systems. Smash 4 is actually far more balanced than most anything out there too.

Also, it's been known for quite a while now that Lucas had little involvement with Empire (he didn't even direct, edit, or write the screenplay. he's only credited as "story by" in the whole thing) and that A New Hope was heavily edited from what he directed. It's arguable that the only Star Wars movie in the original series that he had a decent influence on was A New Hope and even that was heavily parsed down from what he had 'intended'.

 

[Oblivion]

No one is telling them to play Smash 4 (at least from what I see).

Go play Melee, we just want the bitching to stop.

For the record, I wasn't trying to rain on anyone's parade. The thread topic is about Sakurai and George Lucas, and I just simply wanted to make a relevant observation.

 

[Boss Doggie]

*a competitively viable game after changing the settings

 

[EulaCapra]

I was honestly touched by his article.

But then again...I keep thinking about Dixie Kong still not being in the game lol.

 

[Spinluck]

For the record, I wasn't trying to rain on anyone's parade. The thread topic is about Sakurai and George Lucas, and I just simply wanted to make a relevant observation.

Relevant observations like S64 and Melee being the OT and SSBB and S4 being the prequels?

Amazing how much some Melee fans want this too be true. Even suggesting that Sakurai is a fluke of a game designer...

Some of you guys are in over your head.

 

[Azerare]

Relevant observations like S64 and Melee being the OT and SSBB and S4 being the prequels?

Amazing how much some Melee fans want this too be true. Even suggesting that Sakurai is a fluke of a game designer...

Some of you guys are in over your head.

What?! Smash 4 is one of my favorite smash games! I think it found the right balance of casual/competitive mixture between melee and brawl.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

Where the fuck do you come up with nonsense like this?

Years of testimonies and available evidence. DVD extras, actor interviews, stories from the crew, making of features. Why are people so reactionary to that post? It's 2015. The information available on the making of Star Wars and the perspective of George Lucas is canonized in great detail. I'm not making any claims that people haven't been making for thirty years.

Even in this article, Sakurai refers to Disney's intention to "protect the Star Wars brand." Who do you think they're protecting it from?

The reason I said that is because Sakurai referred to Lucas's sentiment that creators create and fans criticize. I thought this was very strange of a comparison to make, because George Lucas is not a respected creator anymore. That isn't me trolling - that's just true. He is the example of an egotistical creator gone off the rails. His fans hate him (see: The People vs George Lucas), his friends disagree with him (see: Steven Spielberg and John Landis), and his interest in telling a story became a low priority compared to selling toys. He has made edits to films he didn't write or direct because "they're his movies," to the chagrin of basically everybody on planet Earth. Sakurai isn't like that. Sakurai is so dedicated to his projects and trying to make his audience happy that it impairs the stability of his life. He has so much respect for source material and, of course, other creators. Compared to George Lucas, who "sometimes forgets to say action" on set and has the nerve to call a movie written and directed by people more talented than himself "his movies."

But Sakurai seems to just be respectful of creators in general, regardless of how much he likes their product or if he agrees with all of their decisions. There's honor in that, I think. But Smash Bros is a game designed around fan indulgence, not artistic vision, which makes me think Sakurai would be happier making different games moving forward.

One thing is for sure though: nobody will ever say Sakurai wasn't responsible for the success of his games. He has nothing but love and dedication for his creations. I wonder if he thinks George Lucas does.

I wonder if George Lucas does.

 

[mStudios]

Smash vs Smash

 

[Oblivion]

Relevant observations like S64 and Melee being the OT and SSBB and S4 being the prequels?

Amazing how much some Melee fans want this too be true. Even suggesting that Sakurai is a fluke of a game designer...

Some of you guys are in over your head.

I said no such thing, sir. The idea of slandering an innocent poster like that. And on Christmas eve, even!