Support NeoGAF

[5secondrulesucks]

sounds fucking wack. i like my bad behavior it makes my personality. i know a lot of people here are squares so i wont hold it against you if you would want that shit.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

me a single proof.

As I said many people say the Theory of Relativity implies eternalism. Perhaps it does not, but it could constitute evidence towards it if it truly does, some would say it constitutes evidence or proof of eternalism.

The idea that patterns or information is distinct from material substrate is proven. A movie can be copied from dvd to hdd, to ssd to ram to cache it can even be copied to quartz or writings on a book, yet it can still be played back on a suitable medium without loss showing all the images and sounds unaltered.

Combinatorics, it would be senseless to say a possible lotto combination number does not exist until it appears as a winning number. It would be strange to say PI does not exist, but if PI exists in some manner, all you will do tomorrow the day after and all future days may already exist within it.

You may say I'm talking about axioms. But more clearly I'm talking about premises. Premise 1.) Truth exists. Premise 2.) Truth is eternal and does not begin to exist. These are in my opinion sensical and widely accepted statements. You could say they're axioms, but if we actually contemplated the opposite that truth does not exist, or truth begins to exist, we would have nonsense and self contradiction.

Usually many an axiom such as some of those of euclidean geometry can be ignored or we can consider the opposite and still make sensible conclusions from the alternative, such as noneuclidean geometry. But what could be done if we said truth did not exist? Logic and sense cease to exist if we entertain the notion that truth does not exist.

Right now evidence, such as some Deep neural networks appearing to process and organize in similar manner to brain areas, is beginning to suggest the brain itself may be performing similar too, no computation that transcends digital computation.

any and all thoughts of doing anything wrong. So someone is thinking about getting married, but then he thinks he might kill his wife if she ever cheats on him. Then he never gets married ever, cause he knows he might kill her. Then you have other people who think about killing their boss at work, then they just quit their job on a dime with no other thoughts what so ever.

Yeah it could be wrongly implemented if done like that. But usually most people that are moral, or even more moral, do not have such deficits in basic everyday function.

A very moral person suffers brain damage, and they may begin to act immoral or become a serial killer. Fixing the brain to be more moral which in many cases may be fixing damaged brains, which some say damaged brains are ubiquitous amongst those in prison, does not all of a sudden create serious deficit in everyday function.

They say that there are individuals that do not feel guilt or remorse from committing evil, any evil act, they simply don't see anything wrong with that. Restoring the normal sense of guilt and morality that keeps most people moral most of the time, would not be detrimental.

But as I said this should be offered as an option or alternative to prison or rehabilitation, not done by force. Theoretically a brain analysis in the future could analyze the decision making circuitry and classify individuals as moral or immoral. If you are a moral or immoral person, well that could become publicly known. May be some corporations simply won't hire immoral persons or require certain degrees of morality for certain positions.

The problem is once we clarify the genetics of docility, morality, obedience, totalitarian regimes will probably use such to modify future generations into docile obedient slaves, from which no revolution will ever spawn regardless of the abuses that are done.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

As I said many people say the Theory of Relativity implies eternalism. Perhaps it does not, but it could constitute evidence towards it if it truly does, some would say it constitutes evidence or proof of eternalism.

The idea that patterns or information is distinct from material substrate is proven. A movie can be copied from dvd to hdd, to ssd to ram to cache it can even be copied to quartz or writings on a book, yet it can still be played back on a suitable medium without loss showing all the images and sounds unaltered.

Combinatorics, it would be senseless to say a possible lotto combination number does not exist until it appears as a winning number. It would be strange to say PI does not exist, but if PI exists in some manner, all you will do tomorrow the day after and all future days may already exist within it.

You may say I'm talking about axioms. But more clearly I'm talking about premises. Premise 1.) Truth exists. Premise 2.) Truth is eternal and does not begin to exist. These are in my opinion sensical and widely accepted statements. You could say they're axioms, but if we actually contemplated the opposite that truth does not exist, or truth begins to exist, we would have nonsense and self contradiction.

Usually many an axiom such as some of those of euclidean geometry can be ignored or we can consider the opposite and still make sensible conclusions from the alternative, such as noneuclidean geometry. But what could be done if we said truth did not exist? Logic and sense cease to exist if we entertain the notion that truth does not exist.

Like I said, I'm familiar with the argument. Instead of "spirit" or "ether" or "Chaos", you are using the word "information". I also happen to believe in eternalism, after a fashion, but when it leads to a Nihilistic denial of Self that's where I roll my eyes.

After all, this conversation isn't really happening. Your bag of flesh, operated by nothing more than vibrations at the Quantum level, is just "vibrating" over at this bag of flesh on my side. "Self" is an illusion.

If you (as an abstracted personality, separate from your physical makeup) don't exist, then this "conversation" doesn't exist either. There's no point in arguing. There's no point of existence. That is the final conclusion that must be drawn if we're just "electrical signals" (or not even that, we're just the shadow of a Platonic Ideal Form called "information"). I mean, it's internally-consistent, but it's unprovable. It is built upon an axiom that is counter to our a priori knowledge about the world.

Right now evidence, such as some Deep neural networks appearing to process and organize in similar manner to brain areas, is beginning to suggest the brain itself may be performing similar too, no computation that transcends digital computation.

But the brain is doing more than just "computation". It is laying down malleable patterns and recording memories and making symbolic representations of different events and storing those for future reference. The "hardware" of our brains is just as much a part of our consciousness as our "software" (i.e. the electrical pattern).

As you pointed out below, damaging the hardware seems to affect the "pattern" of our consciousness. If the "consciousness pattern" is transcendent of the brain-meat, why does this occur? The ability to transfer the electrical signal from a human brain over to a recording apparatus of some sort comes with the assumption that the pattern itself is transcendent, so why is the pattern affected by the machine it's in?

Yeah it could be wrongly implemented if done like that. But usually most people that are moral, or even more moral, do not have such deficits in basic everyday function.

A very moral person suffers brain damage, and they may begin to act immoral or become a serial killer. Fixing the brain to be more moral which in many cases may be fixing damaged brains, which some say damaged brains are ubiquitous amongst those in prison, does not all of a sudden create serious deficit in everyday function.

They say that there are individuals that do not feel guilt or remorse from committing evil, any evil act, they simply don't see anything wrong with that. Restoring the normal sense of guilt and morality that keeps most people moral most of the time, would not be detrimental.

But as I said this should be offered as an option or alternative to prison or rehabilitation, not done by force. Theoretically a brain analysis in the future could analyze the decision making circuitry and classify individuals as moral or immoral. If you are a moral or immoral person, well that could become publicly known. May be some corporations simply won't hire immoral persons or require certain degrees of morality for certain positions.

The problem is once we clarify the genetics of docility, morality, obedience, totalitarian regimes will probably use such to modify future generations into docile obedient slaves, from which no revolution will ever spawn regardless of the abuses that are done.

From my perspective, the goal shouldn't be for society to more efficiently offer (or impose upon) a system of obedience and behavior. Society is already trying to do that. Instead, we should be leveraging this for the advancement of the Individual who can conform to whatever they wish.

"Restoring the normal sense of guilt and morality" is straight-up Clockwork Orange so I suppose that book makes the case for me. We did use to lobotomize and perform surgery on people's brains to alter behavior. I guess I don't see why this is any different, ethically.

 

[Vicetrailia]

What would you do about white collar crimes? What If a bad thing isn't a crime, like cheating your contractors by not paying them, forcing them to take you to court, only that would be more expensive so they just took the loss of labor and materials?

How can you alter a person's mind for getting caught for theft of a clothes, but not for the above?

You would have to keep it simple. Most people would be like: violent crime, rape, and child abuse. Okay. Then you gotta limit that too.

So imo, this would be for extremely selective cases.

 

[hecatomb]

As I said many people say the Theory of Relativity implies eternalism. Perhaps it does not, but it could constitute evidence towards it if it truly does, some would say it constitutes evidence or proof of eternalism.

The idea that patterns or information is distinct from material substrate is proven. A movie can be copied from dvd to hdd, to ssd to ram to cache it can even be copied to quartz or writings on a book, yet it can still be played back on a suitable medium without loss showing all the images and sounds unaltered.

Combinatorics, it would be senseless to say a possible lotto combination number does not exist until it appears as a winning number. It would be strange to say PI does not exist, but if PI exists in some manner, all you will do tomorrow the day after and all future days may already exist within it.

You may say I'm talking about axioms. But more clearly I'm talking about premises. Premise 1.) Truth exists. Premise 2.) Truth is eternal and does not begin to exist. These are in my opinion sensical and widely accepted statements. You could say they're axioms, but if we actually contemplated the opposite that truth does not exist, or truth begins to exist, we would have nonsense and self contradiction.

Usually many an axiom such as some of those of euclidean geometry can be ignored or we can consider the opposite and still make sensible conclusions from the alternative, such as noneuclidean geometry. But what could be done if we said truth did not exist? Logic and sense cease to exist if we entertain the notion that truth does not exist.

Right now evidence, such as some Deep neural networks appearing to process and organize in similar manner to brain areas, is beginning to suggest the brain itself may be performing similar too, no computation that transcends digital computation.


Yeah it could be wrongly implemented if done like that. But usually most people that are moral, or even more moral, do not have such deficits in basic everyday function.

A very moral person suffers brain damage, and they may begin to act immoral or become a serial killer. Fixing the brain to be more moral which in many cases may be fixing damaged brains, which some say damaged brains are ubiquitous amongst those in prison, does not all of a sudden create serious deficit in everyday function.

They say that there are individuals that do not feel guilt or remorse from committing evil, any evil act, they simply don't see anything wrong with that. Restoring the normal sense of guilt and morality that keeps most people moral most of the time, would not be detrimental.

But as I said this should be offered as an option or alternative to prison or rehabilitation, not done by force. Theoretically a brain analysis in the future could analyze the decision making circuitry and classify individuals as moral or immoral. If you are a moral or immoral person, well that could become publicly known. May be some corporations simply won't hire immoral persons or require certain degrees of morality for certain positions.

The problem is once we clarify the genetics of docility, morality, obedience, totalitarian regimes will probably use such to modify future generations into docile obedient slaves, from which no revolution will ever spawn regardless of the abuses that are done.

Yes but you are just assuming there would be no side effects. And what happens to the people who refuse to take this surgery? Are you going to force them against their will?

 

[Aintitcool]

Hypnosis is real and makes you forget your own name. IT can be caused by bullying and harassment and has existed for years. It happens in the same way as stock holmes syndrome and you can completely change a person with enough resources.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

If you fly around different parts of the world and have bad parts removed you will eventually become empty

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Yes but you are just assuming there would be no side effects. And what happens to the people who refuse to take this surgery? Are you going to force them against their will?

Right now a lot of private data is being passed around. Corporations may not hire you if you have a criminal record, controversial opinions or certain political affiliations. Right now some corporations require tests that are basically covert IQ tests and discriminate based upon that. It is said some insurance companies are buying the data from genetic testing companies and using it to discriminate.

If members of the race you belong to are more likely to default on a loan, or if the gender you belong to is more likely to be involved in a crash, it is held against you by banks and insurance companies.

In the future some companies may require brain scans and use them as a basis for hiring you or promoting you unless legal protections are put in place.

 

[hecatomb]

Right now a lot of private data is being passed around. Corporations may not hire you if you have a criminal record, controversial opinions or certain political affiliations. Right now some corporations require tests that are basically covert IQ tests and discriminate based upon that. It is said some insurance companies are buying the data from genetic testing companies and using it to discriminate.

If members of the race you belong to are more likely to default on a loan, or if the gender you belong to is more likely to be involved in a crash, it is held against you by banks and insurance companies.

In the future some companies may require brain scans and use them as a basis for hiring you or promoting you unless legal protections are put in place.

Doing background checks is a lot different then giving someone a surgery to remove any thoughts of doing something wrong. But thanks for changing the subject.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Doing background checks is a lot different then giving someone a surgery to remove any thoughts of doing something wrong. But thanks for changing the subject.

No what I'm saying is that by the time we have tech to rewire the brain to such extent effectively, probably even long prior to that, it will likely be possible to predict the way your brain computes decisions based on its present structure.

Such information if it becomes available, the ability to predict if you will lie, cheat, steal, defraud, etc with high probability will be used against you unless legal protections are in place.

Who will do business with you, who will hire you, who will marry you, who will associate with you, if it is proven you are highly immoral? In such a world you may view any intervention that made you more moral as a blessing.

Also note that a lot of what I said goes beyond background checks, discriminating based on IQ or based on race or based on gender or genetics, is highly problematic.

Again no one might force an immoral person to take the procedure, outside totalitarian regimes, but social ostracism and unemployment may be their fate.

 

[hecatomb]

Yes but theres going to be people who refuse to get their brain worked on. You can't force people to have their brain worked on. Maybe in the UK, but not the U.S. You are also just assuming theres going to be no side effects.

 

[Tesseract]

Yes but theres going to be people who refuse to get their brain worked on. You can't force people to have their brain worked on. Maybe in the UK, but not the U.S. You are also just assuming theres going to be no side effects.

we already force people to have their brains worked on with chemicals.

 

[thief183]

Who will decide what is bad and what is good?

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

There is no good or evil. Well not once I'm fully chromed out and eradicating all the meat bags.

 

[TheShadowLord]

Who will decide what is bad and what is good?

The government, most likely.

 

[hecatomb]

we already force people to have their brains worked on with chemicals.

thats only their fault for eating junk food and drinking diet soda.

 

[strange headache]

My problem with this is that it basically deresponsibilizes us from our deeds. Part of being human is trying to do the right thing despite our flaws. Not every problem can or should be solved through technology lest we infantilize ourselves. Why would I ever wish for such a thing, only to live in an utopian golden cage? I don't subscribe to such an utilitarian mindset because from a deontological point of view, the value of an action is measured by its intent. There is little worth in a deed that is forced and does not happen out of a conscious decision.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

My problem with this is that it basically deresponsibilizes us from our deeds. Part of being human is trying to do the right thing despite our flaws. Not every problem can or should be solved through technology lest we infantilize ourselves. Why would I ever wish for such a thing, only to live in an utopian golden cage? I don't subscribe to such an utilitarian mindset because from a deontological point of view, the value of an action is measured by its intent. There is little worth in a deed that is forced and does not happen out of a conscious decision.

Very well put.

 

[Gander]

Clockwork Orange definitely gave a message about this. From what I remember the message was removing someone's anger and aggression makes them defenseless and unable to protect themselves.

 

[pimentel1]

...

 

[5secondrulesucks]

If this technology would leave Gilbert Gottfried mute, I say bring it on!

he actually talks pretty normal. the voice he does is just for entertainment or his schtick or whatever you want to call it

 

[Tesseract]

thats only their fault for eating junk food and drinking diet soda.

i'm talking about psych meds

 

[thief183]

The government, most likely.

yes...that was the point....

 

[#Phonepunk#]

i mean this is just the modern tech version of thinking somebody is a witch or possessed by a devil. it's society-sanctioned mass insanity. people killed witches for hundreds of years because they thought there was a for real global conspiracy and once a person was possessed by an evil spirit, there was no hope but to kill them, "for the good of society".

beyond the horrifying moral dimensions, it's entirely absurd and physically impossible. we cannot edit the human brain like that, it's a science FICTION. it's like when people talk about cloning humans like it's an achievable goal. just the same old superstitions lots of people thought died out with religion but are just finding new outlets for bad ideas.

 

[hecatomb]

i'm talking about psych meds

No one forces me to take meds. Does anyone force you to take meds?

 

[EverydayBeast]

Custom traits at birth like creating a new character in a video game

 

[Tesseract]

No one forces me to take meds. Does anyone force you to take meds?

no, but they do force them on people who end up in wards.