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[RadarScope1]

I will bet you one hundred US dollars Paypal that if Sony ever introduces PS2 backwards compatibility for the PS3 -- IE not this God of War Collection port, HD remix stuff, actual downloadable PS2 game backwards compatibility -- it will extend to discs in the drive.

If you don't want to take me up on the bet, please stop announcing "THESE ARE THE FACTS". It should be an easy bet for you because you seem very very confident.

Everything I said in that section is fact. I am using those facts to back up my argument as I see it. That's what happens on forums. I don't see how that's worth $100. I am not a degenerate gambler. I don't even play nickel slots. Sorry.

Well, except Nintendo has 100% GameCube backwards compatibility and Microsoft has software emulation of any Xbox 1 game they sell on Games on Demand.

I should have been more clear about this. GOING FORWARD, I think it's dead. MS has stopped updating the Xbox 1 games BC and I doubt Xbox 1 games will work with the next Xbox, whenever it comes around. I would be surprised if Nintendo kept GC BC in its next console, too. Current Wii and 360 games playable on the next Wii and Xbox? Maybe. But I wouldn't be surprised to see it gone. I think in this quarter Sony will show that with a low enough price point you don't need to have these kinds of features to sell systems.

The money to be made on selling old PS2 games online is also miniscule in the broader picture, given the pricepoints ($15, probably) they'd have to come in at. It's not a huge moneymaker -- it's something you do as a low-startup source of revenue, but not one you expect to make much money on. Most people will just buy a $10 copy of FFXII (or whatever) at Gamestop rather than buy it online.

Yeah, that's what you and I would do, but there's a lot of lazy people with credit cards out there. And I'm not sure how it wouldn't be much of a money maker. The game's already developed and there is no shipping or packaging cost. It's only $15, but it's $15 of pure profit for Sony and the publisher.

If BC is being worked on, it could only really be justifiable as a way of bringing back an "important" feature at a lower price to Sony (i.e. transforming a per-unit cost for hardware BC into a one-time cost for developing the firmware upgrade.) Doing so would give them the opportunity to also sell stuff online for no added cost, so it would only make sense for them to take the opportunity

Yeah, that actually makes a lot of sense. Many updates vs one update. Are they smart enough and consumer-oriented enough to do it? .....?

Like I said, I'd LOVE to see it happen. I would love to be proven wrong. Just doubt that I will.

 

[Guy Legend]

so probably Sony will announce this TGS the PS2 BC, even if the initial plan wasn't announce it this week.

I doubt it as it may still be too far off. But if they do announce it, it would be a very welcome development.

 

[DeBurgo]

So I know you guys are all hard up over the PS2 emulation (I am, too) but a couple of the alpha protocol developers (well, one developer and an internal marketing guy) were a little annoyed at SCEA's alleged statements about the game and responded to it in an unofficial capacity:

http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/60558

 

[V_Ben]

So I know you guys are all hard up over the PS2 emulation (I am, too) but a couple of the alpha protocol developers (well, one developer and an internal marketing guy) were a little annoyed at SCEA's alleged statements about the game and responded to it in an unofficial capacity:

http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/60558

wow. didnt really expect for them to retaliate to comments from a leaked set of notes...

 

[DeBurgo]

wow. didnt really expect for them to retaliate to comments from a leaked set of notes...

Well they were just comments on a website, not an official statement or anything. If you read the story and their comments I think the level of damage control is appropriate.

 

[V_Ben]

Well they were just comments on a website, not an official statement or anything. If you read the story and their comments I think the level of damage control is appropriate.

fair enough. i suppose a little damage control could be useful

 

[DangerousDave]

Well... if It's a fake, Alpha Protocol devs shouldn't get mad, because no SCEA tester said that things, and all has been...

Oh, wait.

 

[androvsky]

Well they were just comments on a website, not an official statement or anything. If you read the story and their comments I think the level of damage control is appropriate.

Yeah, it's bizarre. The SCEA tester made what are apparently reasonable comments for someone who couldn't play too much of the game, and the devs made reasonable replies. It's almost like professionals doing business... What place does that have in the game industry?? :lol

 

[ZeoVGM]

Am I reading "$99 for Sonic Collection" wrong? :lol

 

[charlequin]

MS has stopped updating the Xbox 1 games BC and I doubt Xbox 1 games will work with the next Xbox, whenever it comes around.

Again, this is kind of a weird prediction. Xbox 1 BC on the 720 should be easy enough to throw in as a gimme, just like PS1 emulation on PS3. Two generations back is enough to make the emulation coding very straightforward.

I think in this quarter Sony will show that with a low enough price point you don't need to have these kinds of features to sell systems.

The purpose of BC has never been to sell systems in the most short-term sense, but to build a brand strength and a sense of continuity amongst a userbase. Most of the time it isn't actually a tremendously expensive feature to add -- even in the PS3 it didn't cost that much per unit, it only got cut because the system was still losing huge amounts of money even at a ludicrously high price.

Yeah, that's what you and I would do, but there's a lot of lazy people with credit cards out there.

I don't really see any evidence that this demographic of people who are going to drop $15 apiece on games they already own is really out there and large enough to be business-relevant. We've already seen decent evidence that the sales for older games on these services are price-sensitive, heavily skewed towards the top performers, and work out better when limited quantities of titles are released per week than when you get a big dump at once.

It's only $15, but it's $15 of pure profit for Sony and the publisher.

Sure, which is why it makes no sense to not post these titles if you've got the permission, the files, and the ability for them to be played. But people who already own these games do not meaningfully represent a market for these games, which is why operating on the assumption that you need to lock those people out to maintain your profit margin on what is fundamentally a low-input, low-output business isn't particularly logical.

 

[Scythesurge]

Accidentally leaking the minutes...nice

 

[painful fart]

The money to be made on selling old PS2 games online is also miniscule in the broader picture, given the pricepoints ($15, probably) they'd have to come in at. It's not a huge moneymaker -- it's something you do as a low-startup source of revenue, but not one you expect to make much money on. Most people will just buy a $10 copy of FFXII (or whatever) at Gamestop rather than buy it online.

I loled at that one. It will be a huge moneymaker at whatever price they chose, probably the more the lower the price is just ask Apple.

Also remember Sony is not the only one who is deciding the price. Lot of gamedevelopers are probably happy if they can take a bite of the used games market which they hate with a passion.

 

[Dra-Q]

Am I reading "$99 for Sonic Collection" wrong? :lol

Every f'ing Sonic game in HD and on one BluRay? Count me in.

 

[THE Caffeinated]

Every f'ing Sonic game in HD and on one BluRay? Count me in.

Sonic 1, 2 and CD in HD on BD would be amazing... but $99 really ?

 

[OldJadedGamer]

Sonic 1, 2 and CD in HD on BD would be amazing... but $99 really ?

I seem to remember a few other Sonic titles that came out..........

 

[consoul]

Has anyone called Susan at Walmart yet?

 

[erlim]

Sonic 1, 2 and CD in HD on BD would be amazing... but $99 really ?

Would it have all the crappy ps2 and ps3 sonic games?

 

[nyprimus2]

Crazy Taxi, Shenmue, Shenmue 2, Skies of Arcadia, Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2.

Here's my wishlist for DC games on XBLA.

 

[THE Caffeinated]

I seem to remember a few other Sonic titles that came out..........

I don't.

 

[Mama Robotnik]

Assuming Sega have unintentionally broken NDAs with Sony as a result of this leak, could Sony introduce legal action against them? I know that it would hardly help Sony to alienate a publisher, but is there a precedent for any consequences for a leak this big?

 

[A Twisty Fluken]

so, the VC has classic gaming up through the neogeo locked down. if PSN gets dreamcast and PS2, it will have older gaming starting at PS1 locked down

but what's lost in the middle ground? 3DO!

Spoiler

saturn

condemned to purgatory between the 2d and 3d eras

 

[Xenomorph]

I think people are taking this a bit to literally. It was a discussion meeting not a "things that are going to eventually happen" meeting. They're talking business ideas.

 

[Dra-Q]

Sonic 1, 2 and CD in HD on BD would be amazing... but $99 really ?

Here we go (what Wiki says):

- Sonic 1
- Sonic 2
- Sonic CD
- Sonic 3 (Sonic & Knuckels)
- Sonic Labyrinth
- Sonic 3D Blast
- Sonic R
- Sonic Adventure
- Sonic the Hedgehog Pocket Adventure
- Sonic Shuffle
- Sonic Adventure 2
- Sonic Advance
- Sonic Advance 2
- Sonic Battle
- Sonic Heroes
- Sonic Advance 3
- Sonic Rush
- Sonic the Hedgehog (aka Sonic and his shitty friends)
- Sonic and the Secret Rings
- Sonic Rush Adventure
- Sonic Unleashed
- Sonic and the Black Knight

full list with every game sonic was in: here

 

[sarcoa]

Here we go (what Wiki says):



full list with every game sonic was in: here

Chaotix too, just because they always leave it out.

 

[Raistlin]

No, I picked up on what was important to you about this conversation just fine, thanks.

Then I think you just have unrealistic view of what a for-profit company 'owes' you.

 

[DRock]

That Sonic list is fine and dandy, but it does say “Best of Sonic” for around $99...

 

[Fatghost]

I think the every sonic game for 99 was a typo or something.


Even if it was every 2D and 3D Sonic game, 100 bucks is just an odd price point for a single disc compilation.

And you'd have to do expensive revisions of all the 2D games to justify that price..


As for SCEA being mad at SEGA, why would they?

This is great PR for them.

Look at all the positive buzz in this thread.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

I don't.

I know you're a junior but did you just pick up a controller yesterday?

Chaotix too, just because they always leave it out.

Shadow the Hedgehog too, and it's also missing a bunch of Game Gear Sonic games like Sonic Drift and Tales Adventures.

That Sonic list is fine and dandy, but it does say “Best of Sonic” for around $99...

"Best" is in the eye of the beholder in this instance.

 

[Raistlin]

shouldn't there be a way to program some recompilation technique to solve this though? i mean in practice at least.

i understand there's a hefty difficulty in doing so, but i just don't see why it's been labeled as impossible by many people for proper emulation of the gs.

I doubt that's possible. It would be the same thing as porting the games, just at the compiler side (which would be even more time consuming). How can one company do that for 2000+ games? That's before considering that they probably don't have the right to. They need to license the titles to put them on PSN obviously.

And if you meant for discs, how would that work? The ROM is already compiled and imaged?

 

[justchris]

Yeah, that's what you and I would do, but there's a lot of lazy people with credit cards out there. And I'm not sure how it wouldn't be much of a money maker. The game's already developed and there is no shipping or packaging cost. It's only $15, but it's $15 of pure profit for Sony and the publisher.

The PS2 is still on the market and selling hardware units and used software on a weekly basis in all markets. Nintendo gets away with the VC because NES, SNES & even n64 games are hard to find and the hardware isn't being manufactured any longer.

 

[Tricky I Shadow]

Put Shenmue 1 and 2 on psn. PLEASE. And Jet Grind Radio. If you do this Sega, I can retire my trusty Dreamcast.

THIS! Plus throw in Power Stone 1 and 2 + Crazy Taxi then put them all on XBLA too! DO IT SEGA!!! DOOOO IIIIIIT!!!

 

[Obsolete Observation]

Power Stone is a Capcom game. I'm not sure why people think it's a Sega game, maybe because it came out at launch? Regardless, it should definitely be on XBLA and PSN with full online support.

 

[Ponn]

The PS2 is still on the market and selling hardware units and used software on a weekly basis in all markets. Nintendo gets away with the VC because NES, SNES & even n64 games are hard to find and the hardware isn't being manufactured any longer.

Not that i'm against used software, but even I wouldn't use that in an argument that DD PS2 games aren't money makers. I really fail to see how used PS2 game sales make publishers, developers or Sony any money. Nor will it stop those that would be in the market for these DD titles from buying them. I worked at Gamestop during the heydays of PS2, XBox and Gamecube and the people that are buying previous gen systems (at that time shrink wrapped used N64's and Superman 64) are not the target audiences for this or a concentration of Sony.

And are we really going to revisit arguments already went over when people were trying to defend Sony and their horrid PSone classic releases on PSN? They are profit, pure and simple. You have a 120GB HDD in your PS3 Slim and room to fill it up. Yes, there are a niche group of game collectors on boards that cannot possibly fathom not having a PS2 and all the games you want for it already. You people are not the norm.

If they are not going to make the PS3 BC with every PS2 disc then this really is the next best thing. I don't need a PS2 AND a PS3 taking up space in my entertainment center. I don't need a collection of games to go through and changing discs and all that. It is convenient for a lot of people to have a PS2 game folder on your PS3 and a collection of PS2 games ready to play at a button push anytime right from the HDD with possible HD optimizations and hopefully faster load times.

 

[RadarScope1]

I don't really see any evidence that this demographic of people who are going to drop $15 apiece on games they already own is really out there and large enough to be business-relevant. We've already seen decent evidence that the sales for older games on these services are price-sensitive, heavily skewed towards the top performers, and work out better when limited quantities of titles are released per week than when you get a big dump at once.

I think this is part of our disagreement, charlequin. You're talking about building brand equity with longtime gamers who have invested much time and money in all things PlayStation for the last 15 years. AKA, you and I and most of GAF. I'm talking about the average dumbass with a credit card who heard from a guy who knows a guy that God of War was pretty cool. AKA, most other people and like 4/5 of the Wii market.

But seriously, it does seem like Sony is more focused on the general consumer lately and not necessarily the longtime PlayStation gamer.

 

[Tricky I Shadow]

Power Stone is a Capcom game. I'm not sure why people think it's a Sega game, maybe because it came out at launch? Regardless, it should definitely be on XBLA and PSN with full online support.

Ah my bad. I always forget that the Power Stone games are Capcom and not SEGA. I don’t know about you but they feel a lot like a SEGA game to me. And yeah they should still be on XBLA and PSN!

 

[justchris]

Not that i'm against used software, but even I wouldn't use that in an argument that DD PS2 games aren't money makers. I really fail to see how used PS2 game sales make publishers, developers or Sony any money. Nor will it stop those that would be in the market for these DD titles from buying them. I worked at Gamestop during the heydays of PS2, XBox and Gamecube and the people that are buying previous gen systems (at that time shrink wrapped used N64's and Superman 64) are not the target audiences for this or a concentration of Sony.

My point was that it is cheaper to purchase a brand new PS2 and a library of used games than it would be to purchase a used PS3 and download those same games from the PSN. Let's say they put the PS2 games on PSN, but don't allow you to play your on-disc games. What then, are your target markets:

1) Gamers who already own a PS2 and games.
2) Gamers who own a PS3 but not a PS2.
3) Gamers who do not own a PS2 or PS3.

Looking at those three groups, the one most likely to actually have their PS3 connected to the internet is group 1, who are the least likely to want to rebuy games they already own. Digital downloads are a big business or portable devices, but on homebound stationary devices, its still a very specific market you're targeting there. So, are you saying there is a larger market who is willing to buy or rebuy games on PSN rather than just picking them up at random while browsing at their local retailer?

Interestingly, the PS2 still sells new software as well. The used software comment was just to make a point of how your average consumer will see it, from a cost/benefit perspective. There is not a large enough market that can reliably be depended on to buy games digitally that are readily available in hardcopy. While I agree that this will change in the future, we have several indications, on PSN itself, that this is not the case yet.

 

[RelentlessRolento]

ever since Sega announced they'd be doing Genesis for Wii VC back way when, I dreamed of the same for dreamcast games...


here's hoping that's not a fake document... I wanna play mai Project Justice

 

[Ponn]

My point was that it is cheaper to purchase a brand new PS2 and a library of used games than it would be to purchase a used PS3 and download those same games from the PSN. *SNIP REST*

You could have saved yourself time and stop there. Again, you are completely misreading the market and what you have wrote shows me you have not worked retail and if you did you weren't paying attention. The person who is debating to buy a PS2 or a PS3 is not doing it because of the PS2 games and if it would be cheaper or not to download them from PSN. They are going to buy a PS2 and then primarily used games because they are mostly non-gamers, buying to shut up their kids, broke/minimum wage/just buying to appease, etc.

You see Sony touting those PS2 hardware sales numbers but if you haven't yet noticed look at the PS2 software release list. You will notice a decscrepency and there is good reason for that, that is not a viable market for developers anymore (outside the occasional wii cross-platform title or madden) You need to be able to seperate the GAF/Forum video game mentality from actual market. People aren't just keeping their collections and PS2's. When they upgrade its because they want a PS3, not for PS2 games but because they want a PS3.

And believe it or not everyone did not play or owns every PS2 game. If you want proof just watch the sales of God of War Collection when it comes out. So you got a PS3 and you're browsing the store and you see those PS2 games that you have heard about or maybe you owned and traded in but want to play again well BAM, bought, play from HDD whenver you want. It doesn't matter if the systems are still on the market or if you can find the game for sale somwhere.

Its a matter of convenience and immediacy. PS2 DD games are not going to be a planned decison on the consumers part of "Ohhh do I buy the PS2 and hunt down these games or do I buy a PS3 and download them...oohhhhhh I just don't know" On top of that these games don't have to sell in the millions to be profitable. These are going to be pretty much roms of greatest hits just put up for download. Some may be reworked and thats great and those that get that effort are probably the ones that will sell the most.

 

[THE Caffeinated]

I know you're a junior but did you just pick up a controller yesterday?

Yes, it was on sale with your sense of humour apparently.

Sonic 1, 2 and CD are the only Sonic games that matter to me. Did I have to type that out in bold for poeple to understand ? Jesus.

 

[justchris]

...you have not worked retail and if you did you weren't paying attention.

This is true.

The person who is debating to buy a PS2 or a PS3 is not doing it because of the PS2 games and if it would be cheaper or not to download them from PSN. They are going to buy a PS2 and then primarily used games because they are mostly non-gamers, buying to shut up their kids, broke/minimum wage/just buying to appease, etc.

My comments did not argue this point at all. My comments were about the target market for PS2 games.

You see Sony touting those PS2 hardware sales numbers but if you haven't yet noticed look at the PS2 software release list. You will notice a decscrepency and there is good reason for that, that is not a viable market for developers anymore (outside the occasional wii cross-platform title or madden) You need to be able to seperate the GAF/Forum video game mentality from actual market. People aren't just keeping their collections and PS2's. When they upgrade its because they want a PS3, not for PS2 games but because they want a PS3.

I didn't argue that point either. What I am arguing is that buying a PS3 makes PS2s already in customer homes obsolete. The fact that hte PS2 is still selling, and games for it are still selling, shows that the PS2s already in customer homes are not obsolete.

And believe it or not everyone did not play or owns every PS2 game. If you want proof just watch the sales of God of War Collection when it comes out. So you got a PS3 and you're browsing the store and you see those PS2 games that you have heard about or maybe you owned and traded in but want to play again well BAM, bought, play from HDD whenver you want. It doesn't matter if the systems are still on the market or if you can find the game for sale somwhere.

Its a matter of convenience and immediacy. PS2 DD games are not going to be a planned decison on the consumers part of "Ohhh do I buy the PS2 and hunt down these games or do I buy a PS3 and download them...oohhhhhh I just don't know" On top of that these games don't have to sell in the millions to be profitable. These are going to be pretty much roms of greatest hits just put up for download. Some may be reworked and thats great and those that get that effort are probably the ones that will sell the most.

The majority of people who buy video games do so casually. It is an extremely niche group who collects games or even plays a large volume of games. It is a very small cross section of gamers who will rebuy a game they have already played and beaten, and an even smaller one that will rebuy a game they already own on a system that is still functional.

The entire context of my argument was based on RadarScope1's contention that it would be more profitable for Sony to only offer PS2 games as downloads and not allow BC for on-disc PS2 games. My point was that there will not be a significant difference in profit between the two options. The majority of your sales are going to come from people who either don't currently own the game or haven't already played it, regardless of which tact they take. I did not in any way mean to imply that someone, upon seeing this, would go out and buy a PS2 and a host of games rather than spending the money on the PS3. The implication was the majority of people already have, so any games you sell to them are going to be games they don't already have anyway. So it makes no financial sense not to provide support for existing on-disc games, unless there is an actual problem with it from a technical standpoint.

 

[Neiteio]

So when can I download Fatal Frame 2, Silent Hill 3, Haunting Ground and all the other great PS2 survival horror games I missed?

 

[RadarScope1]

To be clear, I don't think they would be making lots of money off the PS2 downloads on PSN. But I do think they would make more doing it than they would off of new PS2 software and PS3 hardware if they put it back in the PS3.

Look, I understand the arguments here. I am just cynical. It seems this generation we haven't been given much in terms of added features after the fact (besides firmware updates, I guess). We have mostly seen features taken away. For me, that has unfortunately become the expectation.

Switching topics ... the Sonic comp disc. I'm not going to debate the price or the content, but I do think the fact that they are thinking about it is cool. It sounds similar in concept to the Sega Ages series in JPN. Maybe the new Genesis Collection did well enough to get them to look further at comps? I crave more of those. I don't have the time, energy and space to collect like I used to and they makes retro gaming on HDTVs simple.

 

[Drkirby]

That Sonic list is fine and dandy, but it does say “Best of Sonic” for around $99...

If they put all sonic games on it, then they will have the best on it no matter how you slice it.

 

[BocoDragon]

A Sonic collection isn't necessarily something to get excited about.. We've had Sonic Mega Collections and Ultimate Genesis Collections.. And you know it'd likely get Backboned

If it had Adventure 1 + 2, and Heroes and Shadow for good (bad?) measure.. I'd be a little excited. If it had both soundtracks of Sonic CD I'd be ecstatic!

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

now i know what it feels like to be one of the people that is missing out on JUST ONE GAME in the whole collection.

sonic spinball

 

[Hydrargyrus]

So I know you guys are all hard up over the PS2 emulation (I am, too) but a couple of the alpha protocol developers (well, one developer and an internal marketing guy) were a little annoyed at SCEA's alleged statements about the game and responded to it in an unofficial capacity:

http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/60558

If the document was a fake, this comment wouldn't have been done, so...

 

[Teknoman]

Yes, it was on sale with your sense of humour apparently.

 

[Xabora]

Bring on the PS2 emulation!

I'm gonna need a bigger harddrive :<

Heres to the SSD Drives!

 

[BocoDragon]

now i know what it feels like to be one of the people that is missing out on JUST ONE GAME in the whole collection.

sonic spinball

I bought the f-n Genesis version last week! I'm hardcore :lol

 

[Night_Trekker]

If they put all sonic games on it, then they will have the best on it no matter how you slice it.

Unless Chaotix is included. Chaotix is so bad, it will infect the other games with it's lack of fun and drag the whole thing down.