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[Petrie]

I can usually break even with the female servers and destroy earnings by other male servers but I have charm and can read my tables. Even when I am distressed and crashing I can be pretty smooth with each table and just start being honest, I won't say "It'll be right over" and have them get upset with me but I will say "I have a few things I have to do but as soon as I can I will get that to you ASAP!".

This is odd, as male servers statistically make substantially more than their female counterparts. I'd think you'd do as well as the males, and decimate the females.

 

[Cuz_7_8_9_Lawlz]

You did prove me right. You keep responding to people who were discussing my scenario, just because you assumed incorrectly up-front doesn't mean everyone else started talking about your misinterpreted alternate scenario.

Case in point, you were not proven right and you would be the only one that thinks that. You thought I was talking about one scenario because others were. I even backed you up. You then replied to me with the same scenario that you were talking to others, not me, about to to prove your point about something that I was not talking about.

I didn't assume anything, you just aren't very good at comprehension it seems.

It is ok, I guess not everyone can carry on multiple conversations without confusing themselves.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Wow, the dick-waving in this thread is hilarious.

The problem with tipping threads is that it gets rapidly polarized by I-Don't-Tip-Guy and I-waited-tables-in-college-and-that-job-sucked-you-should-always-tip-35%-Guy so there's little room for consensus among the rational.

It's like there's no middle ground between servers massively exaggerating how hard their jobs are and guys who say that nobody should ever be tipped anywhere. The problem is it's two sides of the same coin: self-serving people who want as much for themselves as possible.

 

[Petrie]

Case in point, you were not proven right and you would be the only one that thinks that. You thought I was talking about one scenario because others were. I even backed you up. You then replied to me with the same scenario that you were talking to others, not me, about to to prove your point about something that I was not talking about.

I didn't assume anything, you just aren't very good at comprehension it seems.

It is ok, I guess not everyone can carry on multiple conversations without confusing themselves.

When you respond to people discussing my scenario, anyone who has basic comprehension will believe you are still discussing that scenario. You are wrong and everyone in this thread except you who observed the convo realizes that.

 

[Cuz_7_8_9_Lawlz]

It's fair to interpret it as a false choice if you believe he's presenting those two options as the only two options that can occur when one is been served.

If you've read through the context of the conversation correctly; the fairer and more charitable interpretation (one that stops you from been bogged down in a non-sensical false choice dilemma) is simply; here are two options that can happen, of these two, which do you prefer.

Of course the counter to this is simply; this is an invalid point. While it's obvious to state what is preferable out of those two choices, those two choices in no way demonstrate how overall quality of service is affected by the presence of a tipping or non-tipping culture.

Which is the crux of the issue.

And boom goes the dynamite.

Wow, the dick-waving in this thread is hilarious.

Aint that the truth.

Oh and can anyone clarify what condescending means again? I seemed to have forgotten my SAT vocabulary. Maybe someone in this thread can let me know.

Oh you.

 

[lsslave]

This is odd, as male servers statistically make substantially more than their female counterparts. I'd think you'd do as well as the males, and decimate the females.

In my experience female servers, at least that I know, make a lot more. Then again I only recently left the most redneckish area of Alberta there is right in the heart of Oil rig land and most of those guys thought I was "some kinda faggot" for serving and not being on the rigs.

I'd do 2500 in sales and make what a girl who pushed maybe 1000-1500 in sales made that night (still, that was totally a 300$ night)

Around here there are a LOT more male servers though so it seems a lot different (just moved to a bigger city from a small city)

 

[MaddenNFL64]

Tips are garbage. Subsidizing wages that the employer should be handling. Of course, I tip out of peer pressure. I wish we were like Europe; Just pay the waiters a good wage from the start.

 

[AlteredBeast]

Holy crap. this thread is beyond retarded.

I mean, we argue about some pretty inane nonsense in here, but over 1000 replies about tipping? Come on!

Let it go, people.



(btw, I tip always a little even if the server sucks. I think a small tip tells the server to improve better than an assholish no tip. I once tipped 200% because the service, food, and ambiance was THAT good. The guy refused to take the tip 3 times until I forced him. Haven't been able to go back in 3 years )

 

[Petrie]

In my experience female servers, at least that I know, make a lot more. Then again I only recently left the most redneckish area of Alberta there is right in the heart of Oil rig land and most of those guys thought I was "some kinda faggot" for serving and not being on the rigs.

I'd do 2500 in sales and make what a girl who pushed maybe 1000-1500 in sales made that night (still, that was totally a 300$ night)

Around here there are a LOT more male servers though so it seems a lot different (just moved to a bigger city from a small city)

I could see where that'd be true in that environment, but over-all studies find guests are more trusting of male servers and therefor tip them more. Doesn't really make sense to me, but I keep pretty close tabs on all those statistics as someone who makes my living on tips, I like to know what works and what doesn't.

 

[Cuz_7_8_9_Lawlz]

When you respond to people discussing my scenario, anyone who has basic comprehension will believe you are still discussing that scenario. You are wrong and everyone in this thread except you who observed the convo realizes that.

Once again you missed where I actually defended you on that point, not surprising. Yet you also missed, somehow even though you started it, where I made another point and yet you went back to the point where I defended you and had already closed?

Yep, your comprehension level is about the same as my kindergartners, yet they sometimes have something interesting to say

No one in the thread has seeing as a few of them are already in 2 or more conversations without getting confused like you have already been/still are.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Holy crap. this thread is beyond retarded.

I mean, we argue about some pretty inane nonsense in here, but over 1000 replies about tipping? Come on!

Let it go, people.



(btw, I tip always a little even if the server sucks. I think a small tip tells the server to improve better than an assholish no tip. I once tipped 200% because the service, food, and ambiance was THAT good. The guy refused to take the tip 3 times until I forced him. Haven't been able to go back in 3 years )

It's not a GAF phenomenon. Try a tipping thread on ANY forum and you will get the same results with the same cast of characters.

 

[Jea Song]

I hate feeling pressured to tip. When i get my haircut, its always kinda awkward when they give me a little bit of change and I dont give them all the change back for a tip.

Or when I have a pizza delivered, where I was charged a delivery fee for the 9.99 pizza I ordered. What do you tip $2? That's 20% of the pizza, makes no sense.

 

[perfectnight]

Holy crap. this thread is beyond retarded.

I mean, we argue about some pretty inane nonsense in here, but over 1000 replies about tipping? Come on!

Let it go, people.



(btw, I tip always a little even if the server sucks. I think a small tip tells the server to improve better than an assholish no tip. I once tipped 200% because the service, food, and ambiance was THAT good. The guy refused to take the tip 3 times until I forced him. Haven't been able to go back in 3 years )

200%? you sound like an idiot

did they blow you while you ate, at least?

 

[Cuz_7_8_9_Lawlz]

In my experience female servers, at least that I know, make a lot more. Then again I only recently left the most redneckish area of Alberta there is right in the heart of Oil rig land and most of those guys thought I was "some kinda faggot" for serving and not being on the rigs.

I'd do 2500 in sales and make what a girl who pushed maybe 1000-1500 in sales made that night (still, that was totally a 300$ night)

Around here there are a LOT more male servers though so it seems a lot different (just moved to a bigger city from a small city)

Might depend on the market, in the LA/Hollywood area girls usually made more than most of the guys except maybe being on par with the ones that weren't complete idiots.

Holy crap. this thread is beyond retarded.
I mean, we argue about some pretty inane nonsense in here, but over 1000 replies about tipping? Come on!

Agreed, I feel bad I contributed, but when you see a special needs child that needs help you want to help them from eating their poop.

 

[Sennorin]

Again, as I said earlier. This is like getting outraged at an oil company dumping toxins in the Gulf and instead of boycotting, protesting or lobbying for reform you drive down to the offending companies gas station, fill up your tank with their gas, pay for it, and then kneecap the attendant on the way out.

Its a completely stupid method of protest that does nothing but hurt the lowly gas attendant who just took the job because he wanted some cash to pay his rent during college.

You can create as many absurd comparisons as you want, it doesn´t change that I´m correct.

 

[Zaptruder]

And boom goes the dynamite.

Here's the real dynamite:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/chronicle/00/8.17.00/Lynn-tipping.html

Asked to sum up his findings on the subject, Lynn offered these tips on tipping:

1) Tip percentages are only weakly related to customers' ratings of service quality in restaurant settings. This finding suggests that restaurant tips are poor measures of customer satisfaction with service and that they provide weak incentives for delivering good service.

2) Nonverbal server behaviors that communicate liking for the customer, such as lightly touching the customer and crouching next to the table when interacting with the customer, substantially increase the tips restaurant servers receive. These findings suggest that managers can significantly increase their employees' compensation without adversely affecting the company's bottom line by encouraging their servers to touch customers and to display other nonverbal signs of liking for the customer.

3) Tipping is more prevalent in countries whose populations are achievement-oriented, status-seeking, extroverted, neurotic and tenderhearted. These findings suggest that tipping exists to serve several functions, i.e., to increase the social attention/esteem that servers give customers, to reduce consumers' anxieties about being served by others and to allow consumers to financially help servers.

So, from a guy that makes a living studying the sociology of tipping; tipping is only weakly correlated with service.

In other words, it represents a very weak form of behaviourial reinforcement for better tipping.

Is that an acceptable compromise for the relative bothersome nature of tipping? Well, I'm probably biased in saying this - but hell no. On the other hand, you're probably going to find most of the world biased in that fashion as well - most cultures in the world don't have a tip to make a living culture.

 

[nelsonroyale]

20 percent?!?! Ridiculous unless the service is incredible

 

[Jonm1010]

It's fair to interpret it as a false choice if you believe he's presenting those two options as the only two options that can occur when one is been served.

If you've read through the context of the conversation correctly; the fairer and more charitable interpretation (one that stops you from been bogged down in a non-sensical false choice dilemma) is simply; here are two options that can happen, of these two, which do you prefer.

Of course the counter to this is simply; this is an invalid point. While it's obvious to state what is preferable out of those two choices, those two choices in no way demonstrate how overall quality of service is affected by the presence of a tipping or non-tipping culture.

Which is the crux of the issue.

Well his assertion is based upon the notion that one system always provides mediocre service and one system always provides superior service. His statement

"All non-tipping systems I've seen are FAR better for the customer. I'd like to see your argument against this statement:

Getting excellent service without having to tip for it is better than getting average service and having to tip for it"

When pushed to validate that assertion he kept repeating the same line. The assertion that its true that ALL non-tipping countries provide better service than tipping countries is a fallacious statement until he provides any empirical evidence to support it. The premise that a persons choice is solely between good service if you dont have to tip or mediocre service if you do have to tip is a false choice unless he proves the original assertion to be true. Even then he'd need to prove it's true all of the time or it'd remain a false choice.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Might depend on the market, in the LA/Hollywood area girls usually made more than most of the guys except maybe being on par with the ones that weren't complete idiots.



Agreed, I feel bad I contributed, but when you see a special needs child that needs help you want to help them from eating their poop.

You seem like a pleasant person. I'm sure you'll go far with your personal attacks on other posters. Is there really a need for that?

 

[Cuz_7_8_9_Lawlz]

20 percent?!?! Ridiculous unless the service is incredible

20% standard as the OPs post said, yes ridiculous entitlement all over that.

 

[Zaptruder]

Well his assertion is based upon the notion that one system always provides mediocre service and one system always provides superior service. His statement

When pushed to validate that assertion he kept repeating the same line. The assertion that its true that ALL non-tipping countries provide better service than tipping countries is a fallacious statement until he provides any empirical evidence to support it. The premise that a persons choice is solely between good service if you dont have to tip or mediocre service if you do have to tip is a false choice unless he proves the original assertion to be true. Even then he'd need to prove it's true all of the time or it'd remain a false choice.

Well, I did miss that line. It is pretty dumb. But again, providing charity in interpretation is always a good practice in helping arguments move along.

 

[Cuz_7_8_9_Lawlz]

You seem like a pleasant person. I'm sure you'll go far with your personal attacks on other posters. I'd there really a need for that?

Really? The poop part was a joke. Calm down Nancy.

<3

Wait.....did you not get the condescending jab earlier either?

For shame.

 

[lsslave]

Here's the real dynamite:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/chronicle/00/8.17.00/Lynn-tipping.html




So, from a guy that makes a living studying the sociology of tipping; tipping is only weakly correlated with service.

In other words, it represents a very weak form of behaviourial reinforcement for better tipping.

Is that an acceptable compromise for the relative bothersome nature of tipping? Well, I'm probably biased in saying this - but hell no. On the other hand, you're probably going to find most of the world biased in that fashion as well - most cultures in the world don't have a tip to make a living culture.

In my experience that isn't true. Generally a friendly server is also a competent server. I've also had some friendly as fuck servers I knew make not a cent but some absolute bitches make a killing because they were phenomenal servers.

It might happen, but not that I have seen.

Tips are garbage. Subsidizing wages that the employer should be handling. Of course, I tip out of peer pressure. I wish we were like Europe; Just pay the waiters a good wage from the start.

On the last page I posted a link showing 77 countries with rules for tips, quite a few that didn't have tips have an automatic service charge. Not all of Europe is as opposed to tipping as you seem to believe man. Most of the list did tips, EVEN China!

 

[Jonm1010]

You can create as many absurd comparisons as you want, it doesn´t change that I´m correct.

Correct about what? That you dont have to tip. You're right, you dont. Doesnt mean its not a dickish and useless form of protest against the system you dont like. If you're planning on never tipping but still paying for the food the only person your hurting are servers.

 

[MobileWells]

I'm never sure if I should tip in Japanese restaurants. When I tipped in Tokyo I actually offended the poor waitress and was told later that it meant "here's some money to improve your performance".

Here in the states I tip a % based on whatever my dwindling college fund is at.

 

[Zaptruder]

In my experience that isn't true. Generally a friendly server is also a competent server. I've also had some friendly as fuck servers I knew make not a cent but some absolute bitches make a killing because they were phenomenal servers.

Your experience is a single point of data.

 

[Cuz_7_8_9_Lawlz]

Well his assertion is based upon the notion that one system always provides mediocre service and one system always provides superior service. His statement

When pushed to validate that assertion he kept repeating the same line. The assertion that its true that ALL non-tipping countries provide better service than tipping countries is a fallacious statement until he provides any empirical evidence to support it. The premise that a persons choice is solely between good service if you dont have to tip or mediocre service if you do have to tip is a false choice unless he proves the original assertion to be true. Even then he'd need to prove it's true all of the time or it'd remain a false choice.

Well, I did miss that line. It is pretty dumb. But again, providing charity in interpretation is always a good practice in helping arguments move along.

He did say "I've seen" so its not like he was passing his opinion off as fact.

And the second part was just a statement used for an arguing point that you jumped over.

How is that not glaringly obvious?

 

[Cuz_7_8_9_Lawlz]

Correct about what? That you dont have to tip. You're right, you dont. Doesnt mean its not a dickish and useless form of protest against the system you dont like. If you're planning on never tipping but still paying for the food the only person your hurting are servers.

Just so were clear, you aren't saying that someone not getting a tip is not because the service may have been bad or what have you but because they are protesting or being dicks are you?

 

[Zaptruder]

He did say "I've seen" so its not like he was passing his opinion off as fact.

Yeah, that *is* the charitable interpretation.

 

[lsslave]

Just said, in my experience a friendly waiter is a competent waiter.

And being friendly is part of service, that is a KEY issue.

 

[Jonm1010]

Here's the real dynamite:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/chronicle/00/8.17.00/Lynn-tipping.html




So, from a guy that makes a living studying the sociology of tipping; tipping is only weakly correlated with service.

In other words, it represents a very weak form of behaviourial reinforcement for better tipping.

Is that an acceptable compromise for the relative bothersome nature of tipping? Well, I'm probably biased in saying this - but hell no. On the other hand, you're probably going to find most of the world biased in that fashion as well - most cultures in the world don't have a tip to make a living culture.

Its interesting. But I would want to see how he goes from the findings that people dont seem to tip according to service to proclaiming that servers and such are not incentivized in this system. There's a gap in the explanation of how he goes from one to the other.

 

[Jonm1010]

He did say "I've seen" so its not like he was passing his opinion off as fact.

And the second part was just a statement used for an arguing point that you jumped over.

How is that not glaringly obvious?

The burden is still on him to prove why his anecdotal evidence is able to support the assertion that the whole of all tipping systems are better than the whole of all non-tipping systems and in every instance. That's what would be needed to make his statement as it was stated not a false choice.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Its anecdotal evidence, just like yours. Neither of our anecdotal evidence is any more valid than the others.

Its certainly the most cynical way to look at it. Fact is though, if you paid them a decent wage then food prices go up and more than likely the number on staff would also drop. That would mean that you'd be asking servers to do more than they currently do and stretch them to the point that service would probably suffer. Furthermore, as already stated, the system now allows a reward/punishment system that incentivizes good service. The choice is a system that pays servers a flat wage and lowers the incentive, or a system that has a fluctuating rate that incentivizes good service. My anecdotal evidence has liked the latter better.

I would say a lot of the courtesies also have to do with culture. Japan for example is very proper and polite. Just because that has been instilled so hard and that you get courteous service regardless doesnt also mean that it is due to the fact that people arent required to tip. They might do it in spite of that fact. And no one has presented evidence to prove that not tipping is the reason the service is supposedly better. Or that it wouldnt be better if that system was implemented in those countries.

what are you even talking about!?!?!?!??! in almost every other country on the planet, tipping is not required or expected and they all seem to have restaurants and bars and in many cases, better service than in the USA.

 

[outunderthestars]

I mean, ok. If you feel that you personally add that much to an experience, then more power to you. You may very well be damn good at your job, but it just isn't what I primarily look for when having an evening or night out.

A good bartender or waiter does all of those things without you feeling like they are part of your night out. It is a craft, just like any other profession.

 

[Zaptruder]

Its interesting. But I would want to see how he goes from the findings that people dont seem to tip according to service to proclaiming that servers and such are not incentivized in this system. There's a gap in the explanation of how he goes from one to the other.

Yeah, you're going to have to dig up the studies if you want those details.

To me, it's pretty straight forward - if your actions are not been adequately reinforced; i.e. you get roughly the same tip irrespective of how well you serve, then the quality of your service will be much more strongly influenced by other more salient factors; such as your attraction/liking of a particular group, the time/pressure you have on hand, and your current mood.

Which are factors that exist irrespective of tipping/non-tipping cultures.

 

[dojokun]

Dude, you're wrong. Look at any type of bar hiring ads, you'll see they always want a bartender with a following, and you develop a following through personal connections with your regular guests. Yes, other people go to those places as well, but they are not your bread and butter, and they can wait the 10 seconds for me to finish letting the first guest speak.

Personally I don't mind waiting 10 seconds as long as I know it's 10 seconds. But how am I supposed to know how long the bartender is going to take with this conversation? I've had experiences where the bartender never comes over after a really long time, just talking to people instead.

 

[Cuz_7_8_9_Lawlz]

The burden is still on him to prove why his anecdotal evidence is able to support the assertion that the whole of all tipping systems are better than the whole of all non-tipping systems and in every instance. That's what would be needed to make his statement as it was stated not a false choice.

I don't think that was "his" opinion, from his other posts it seems like he was using that as a talking point. Thus the "id like to hear your argument against this statement.." if it were from him directly he would've just said it.

Do people not bring up points of discussions anymore or something?

 

[Cuz_7_8_9_Lawlz]

A good bartender or waiter does all of those things without you feeling like they are part of your night out. It is a craft, just like any other profession.

A good one can also handle any of the aforementioned situations in a way where a customer wouldn't feel slighted whether it be the conversation or the new customer. They should be able to handle it without any escalation of emotion like Petrie has said he'd display.

 

[Fusebox]

.The assertion that its true that ALL non-tipping countries provide better service than tipping countries is a fallacious statement...

Who said that? Please show me where that was posted, because I specifically said "countries I'VE seen", yet once again you deliberately paraphrase and mangle posts to meet your own agenda. I doubt that you accidentally introduced the difference, so I can only assume you changed my words deliberately because you enjoy being a disingenuous troll.

 

[Walshicus]

Just to chip in again, how fucking stupid does "server" sound in this context?

 

[dojokun]

Just to chip in again, how fucking stupid does "server" sound in this context?

Most restaurants these days don't have the workers literally standing there waiting for you. Nowadays they serve you, but aren't necessarily waiting on you.

 

[Jonm1010]

Yeah, you're going to have to dig up the studies if you want those details.

To me, it's pretty straight forward - if your actions are not been adequately reinforced; i.e. you get roughly the same tip irrespective of how well you serve, then the quality of your service will be much more strongly influenced by other more salient factors; such as your attraction/liking of a particular group, the time/pressure you have on hand, and your current mood.

Which are factors that exist irrespective of tipping/non-tipping cultures.

Well, slipping into completely unscientific anecdotal evidence it has been my experience that tips do reflect level of service. Good servers and bartenders I've worked with always made more than the poorer ones. In my experience I would of expected to see an even field over the long term but it almost always reflected level of service. Again, completely unscientific. On days i didnt talk to customers or act cheery, I saw worse tips, the days I was on my game saw better tips.

Behavioral economics also teaches of how people respond to things just because they believe it to be so. Just because the evidence bares out that there is a weak correlation doesnt mean that most servers dont still feel that the correlation is there and therefore has elevated their level of service because of it. And that just having the belief of that system instilled in employees raises their level of service and therefore is good to have in place.

Not to mention the findings he lists in two seem to suggest that in fact certain actions and courtesies do increase tips so it seemingly suggests there is some conscious or subconsious decisions being made about level of service which is reflected in the tip.

 

[lsslave]

what are you even talking about!?!?!?!??! in almost every other country on the planet, tipping is not required or expected and they all seem to have restaurants and bars and in many cases, better service than in the USA.

You are wrong, I've posted already in this thread a list of tipping rules for countries and most of the world has embraced tipping or at the very least a service charge (forced tipping).

No, there is not a world outside of the US where no one tips and no one but here does it, it is more widespread than you'd think.

Most restaurants these days don't have the workers literally standing there waiting for you. Nowadays they serve you, but aren't necessarily waiting on you.

It was changed to be PC. Server = gender neutral, Waiter / Waitress has that masculine/feminine factor to it.

I prefer waiter but I got in trouble for calling myself a waiter at work so I have to stick to Server now. Fucking politically correct bullshit, waiter sounds more ballin'

 

[Jonm1010]

I don't think that was "his" opinion, from his other posts it seems like he was using that as a talking point. Thus the "id like to hear your argument against this statement.." if it were from him directly he would've just said it.

Do people not bring up points of discussions anymore or something?

Bring up any point you want, but dont be illogical in your arguments or expect to get called out on it.

 

[Cuz_7_8_9_Lawlz]

Bring up any point you want, but dont be illogical in your arguments or expect to get called out on it.

He wasn't illogical....imo. Of course we wont know exactly what he meant. But to me it doesnt make sense for someone to say "I would like to hear your argument on this statement." That's not logical to think that imo. Anyone would just say the statement, no? Once again we wont know unless he clarifies but thats what I got from it. Then you all jumped on him first for his opinion then something that I dont think he meant was coming from him.

And even after that, what he was saying was not illogical to anyone with even the slightest modicum of comprehension. It seems like you were playing semantics due to lack of a solid rebuttal.

Imo.

 

[Spokker]

Here's the real dynamite:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/chronicle/00/8.17.00/Lynn-tipping.html

Great post there, mate. I love when people bring research like this to the table. I'll put 20% extra in your jar.

 

[Agent_J]

.

 

[pieatorium]

If I go to the US and don't tip, will they understand it's because I'm a tourist and don't know my shit or will they get pissed?

 

[Goodacre0081]

fuck tips, if you don't get paid enough find another job. why does the public have to compensate for the shitty wage your employer pays you?

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

I always leave good tips, especially if I get good service.

It makes their day just a little bit better, and it makes me feel good for doing a nice thing.