Support NeoGAF

[Imbarkus]

Well yeah but the project on Kickstarter didn't exist in a vacuum, either.

The attitudes towards high-dollar Kickstarters themselves has changed lately, in part due to the recent announcements of Double Fine's progress on Broken Age, and also in part due to so many seemingly viable business models using it in ways people question (Spike Lee?).

The other truly sad fact of the matter, being a horror game fan, is that our niche just doesn't seem to be able to generate as much revenue as we'd like to. Console publishers are unwilling to back a AAA horror game now unless it is essentially a shooter, chasing that RE4 acclaim and money. Yet meanwhile RE itself and its offshoots like Dead Space fade over time as the gameplay fails to support a horror experience, and is deadly similar to most everything else a player will have played.

The indie space recognizes the potential in horror storytelling/gameplay and has for a while, but I've about reached saturation for low-budget Slender clones and 16-bit zombies. But can a AAA horror game with non-shooter gameplay sell well?

Ironically Silent Hill 2 sold far better in the AAA space before anybody "refined" the combat, gameplay, camera, etc. Still the best-selling entry in the series. So I think the potential is there.

But it is another uphill battle to add to the list that this team has had to wage.

 

[Scoot2005]

After seeing the insanity effects trailer... I want this to be made. For my Wii U. The asking price is pretty damn high though.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

I just think that, despite perhaps citizens hoping otherwise, there is a point of no return for reputation as a professional and DD and SK is on the other side of that line. It is too bad because the game really does look neat.

I disagree. A decent little downloadable game or two could repair Dyack's reputation and build good foundations for Precursor. They probably just need to stop aiming so high, drop Cryengine for the minute and create a couple of smaller 2D games on a budget of a couple of hundred thousand. If they can create some community goodwill then they could raise more money on Kickstarter, and build towards SotE rather than trying to (financially) run before they can walk.

Out of interest, and I think I already asked this but don't know if anyone answered, what has Dyack done to make people dislike him so? Did her do something specific here on GAF that pissed people off?

 

[Imbarkus]

Oh geez c'mon man not again...

EDIT: srsly Trigger just read back a few pages. Even though this thread has been more fair-handed, it's all been covered at length. Play with the search function and make a day of it.

I think a few people here and myself would play a smaller downloadable follow-up to Eternal Darkness, would it wouldn't be the series' chance to reemerge and triumph as a concept that deserved to be a better hit in the first place. It keeps it niche. How can you blame them for going for the dream? Don't most of us want AAA horror games to survive as a distinct thing?

But name me the last one, even a shooter-y one, that was declared a success. Not RE6. Not Dead Space 3. Certainly not Shadows of the Damned.

If you were a publisher, would you back any AAA horror game? Yet, as a gamer, on Kickstarter, I back projects I want. Not the ones I would finance if I were a publisher.

As a gamer, I'm so tired of aiming crosshairs, or targeting lasers. It didn't make it any more interesting to make my gun a Wheatley wanna-be. This project brings back all the "roads not travelled" since RE4 to my mind.

I'm not going to believe in the project less, just because less people believed in it to less financial effect than was their goal. I want the game as it was shown, the vision of AAA horror done differently. I don't want a 2D Shadow of the Eternals Zero side-scrolling fund-raising project. I still have Home and Lone Survivor on my pile of shame, to fulfill those needs.

 

[duckroll]

Imbarkus, you should go lie down. You're not going to like the next 12 hours much.

 

[Kabuki Quantum Lover]

Precursor aimed for the stars before learning how to walk. They really should've started with smaller, non-Eternal projects before even thinking of embarking on a project of this scope.

 

[Imbarkus]

Don't worry. I'm chill. I did all I could to help the project. If you saw the vids I made I'm not sure you could say any backer made a more passionate plea, crafted with a lot of work and effort, for a follow-up to Eternal Darkness.

Yet, in the meantime, there were dozens of active backers in the forums there reaching out, trying to find Lovecraft fans, fans of Eternal Darkness, being creative and crafting things of their own out of love for the game. I would say any of them probably did as much or more than I did. And that doesn't even account for all the craft and effort from the team itself.

The whole experience has been positive. I had the choice to be skeptical and pass just like everyone. And you guys know I'm no dummy about the industry so I heard all the same scuttlebutt and read all the same articles well before the first campaign.

But I'm just a forgive-and-forget kind of guy, optimistic, expansionistic, enthusiastic. I kicked in with this crew, and I think I had way more fun for it. No regrets.

Tears or cheers, I'll be there for that last stream.

 

[peakish]

Precursor aimed for the stars before learning how to walk. They really should've started with smaller, non-Eternal projects before even thinking of embarking on a project of those scope.

Seriously. It's cool that they have their vision, but if things don't work out immediately you'll have to do it stepwise. I'm not sure how many horror games there are which have been kickstarted, but for instance I know that Frictional Games produced some great smaller titles on very modest budgets before hitting it big with Amnesia - they have not been 2D games with horrible graphics, just good stuff made with budget limitations in mind.

I've backed Asylum, a horror game from the creator of Scratches (wonderful title). It's 3D, it looks all right for a small release, and barely scratched the 100k they wanted to polish it. This is the ball park that Precursor have to aim for instead of going for a home run, there's obviously a huge interested in the titles themselves but they have no trust. Take a smaller attempt and use it to build trust for your larger project.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/agustincordes/asylum-kickstart-the-horror

 

[malfcn]

Their logo for Precursor looks like a Too Human gauge.

Looking like we may get a Sharknado game.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I disagree. A decent little downloadable game or two could repair Dyack's reputation and build good foundations for Precursor. They probably just need to stop aiming so high, drop Cryengine for the minute and create a couple of smaller 2D games on a budget of a couple of hundred thousand. If they can create some community goodwill then they could raise more money on Kickstarter, and build towards SotE rather than trying to (financially) run before they can walk.
?

Dark Legions 2 for iOS. Come at me, Denis.

 

[Imbarkus]

Peakish I agree that Frictional did some great work. It wasn't 2D side-scrolling. But it also didn't involve combat, and in many ways played pretty much like Scratches with a touch of Haunting Ground, right? Good stuff, but not AAA in gameplay, though approaching it in presentation. Better and better as they go, true.

Again, things are turning out how they turned out. Hindsight is 20/20, right? I can't blame for them for going after the dream of that AAA non-shooter horror game. With Resident Evil and Silent Hill all watered-down to hell, I'd have thought it was time for the return of a venerated champion of the genre.

But it's possible that the market reach of the genre itself can't support AAA anymore. So any effort on their part "building up" to the game would just mean building up a company with a bunch of small releases so they could eventually release a company-killing flop, even if it's quality matches its inspiration.

And that's the real reason why it won't fund AND Nintendo won't touch it. Not enough money in AAA horror.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

But they can't make a Triple A game because they don't have the budget, and after a few failed crowd funding efforts, it's clear the community is not going to fund it or them. That's my point; folk here are saying it's because Precursor/Dyack are not trusted, so they should put Eternals on ice, develop a couple of other projects (doesn't have one be 2D, that was just an example) then come back to it when they've got the clout to see a crowd funding effort like this through to success. I would like the game to get made because it looks like the type of genre I'd like to play, but they're aiming too high with their first project.

 

[Imbarkus]

Apparently so. But you have to admit that playable demo is a lot more than most other Kickstarter teams show.

So the shame of it is how the trust judgment has more to do with Silicon Knights of seven years ago than it does with Precursor Games today.

Human nature, I guess. Trust itself ebbs and flows based off human nature. And human nature is by no means fair. Still, it's encouraging to have read that I am not the only one to think that that's a shame.

 

[D-e-f-]

They made a great pitch. Had it not been for the baggage associated with the people involved, we'd see a lot more excitement about this.

Now I know why there are laws against libel...

 

[Gestault]

They made a great pitch. Had it not been for the baggage associated with the people involved, we'd see a lot more excitement about this.

Now I know why there are laws against libel...

Yes, libel is an awful thing when it happens. It can be very damaging. But then again, so is accurate information as a matter of the public record. From an earlier response:

"The fundraiser failed because of the history of behavior by the people behind it. They created a "new" company as the basis of this project, despite keeping the same management and working on the same title, because they destroyed their last business attempting to steal a game engine while trying to sue the company they stole it from. That is a matter of fact and law. Their last two projects were universally panned, amidst not-especially-far-fetched accusations of wrongdoing behind the scenes.

Their character and their talent for creating games have been brought into question, and the fact that they claim being unable to fund this work through traditional channels, despite decades of experience in the industry and a "sure thing" regarding the project, should be a sign in itself.

I want this game to come out, but the barriers to it were erected by the personalities behind it. This isn't a creative project being "suppressed" because people don't like the people. It's people expecting money so they can profit from a venture with no risk to themselves, when they should be as well suited to arranging the funding as almost anyone else in the industry."

 

[D-e-f-]

Yes, libel is an awful thing when it happens. It can be very damaging. But then again, so is accurate information as a matter of the public record.

I've seen that post before.

The part about "with no risk to themselves" still rubs me in a multitude of ways and all of them feel wrong. They've been working on this thing for a your out of their own pockets. How is that "no risk to themselves?"

 

[lordchompy]

They made a great pitch. Had it not been for the baggage associated with the people involved, we'd see a lot more excitement about this.

Now I know why there are laws against libel...

The pitch wasn't the problem, where they made it was. Had they begun their fundraising campaign on Kickstarter while the initial momentum was there and the news coverage was fresh, and if they had requested $750k from day one, they would likely have been funded.

But they waited and waited, and shot their credibility with their greed by trying to collect their money without a middleman.

Moreover, they waited too long to get a Wii U version included, and worried people with their indefinite schedule of releasing additional episodic content after the first episode is completed.

So no, Dyack and the man accused of distributing child pornography aren't the culprits for why this game will fail; there are just too many blunders to write this off as bad luck and a crisis of personality.

Shadow of the Eternals will fail because of its patchwork, sparsely focused fundraising campaign that did little to convince potential customers that their money will go towards a fine product delivered as promised.

 

[Imbarkus]

You may be right but it sucks that group of seasoned game developers with a pitch and a demo as polished as we have seen can fail simply because of lack of PR and fundraising marketing savvy.

Definitely a sign also that this channel which appeals directly to fans has now become so crowded that such things are as great a consideration there as they are out in the open market.

Ironically one bullshit PR Reddit campaign from the shady bot-using pros, instead of all us scrappy and determined but scattered fans and backers, probably would have done the trick.

I want the game, but I'm glad they played the campaign they way they did, straightforward with the fans, adjusting to every request.

Something, at least has been proven here. I guess time will tell.

EDIT: Gestault, as to the matter of public record:

The management of Precursor Games is not the same as the management of Silicon Knights. This false equivalency was one of the most frustrating things about the PR of this campaign. Shawn Jackson and Paul Capporici are in charge of Precursor. The demo was built from the ground up with the CryEngine, which was never licensed by Silicon Knights. Certainly it was the same basic idea as had been conceived before, but what we are seeing is Precursor's work.

This is an experienced team, but their project is not a sure thing with any publisher because AAA horror without gunsights is not a sure thing with any publisher. Nintendo has had every chance to pursue Eternal Darkness. Precursor concluded, and I agreed at the time, that this was a perfect project for fans to speak up and get a type of game that isn't being explored any more, by the big publishers. Seems just as valid to me as using Kickstarter to prove interest in point-and-click adventures, etc.

I want this game to come out, but the barriers to it were erected by the personalities behind it.

Would you kindly justify the plural in the above statement?

 

[Miletius]

I disagree. A decent little downloadable game or two could repair Dyack's reputation and build good foundations for Precursor. They probably just need to stop aiming so high, drop Cryengine for the minute and create a couple of smaller 2D games on a budget of a couple of hundred thousand. If they can create some community goodwill then they could raise more money on Kickstarter, and build towards SotE rather than trying to (financially) run before they can walk.

You're probably right. I retract my earlier statement and modify it as such:

I just think that, despite perhaps hoping otherwise, there is a point of no return for reputations professionals and DD and SK is on the other side of that line. A project of this size is out of their reach and the public's goodwill based on past events.

Well perhaps the 2nd Kickstarter going down will allow them to re-evaluate their priorities and try to secure funding for something smaller. Like Duckroll suggested, target PC only, drop Cry-Engine 3 and use Unity, and take a hard look at every other added expenditure.

 

[Imbarkus]

 

[RPGCrazied]

Oh well. They tried. Wonder if they will try again with a lower goal. Why not, what more could they lose?

 

[Imbarkus]

Boy if you want some indication of the fact that there are plenty of people who want this to fail just out of Dyack hate, check out the comments on the Reddit thread I just made for the above image: http://redd.it/1kyvhq

Apparently he spent all of Canada's money on hookers and blow!

 

[Gattsu25]

I just finished listening to the weekend confirmed episode mentioned a few pages back.

I don't think it was a smart tactical move to defend Too Human's gameplay while advertising a new crowd funded project...

 

[Vintage_Creep]

So... What now?
They'll give it another try?

 

[Imbarkus]

I don't think it was a smart tactical move to defend Too Human's gameplay while advertising a new crowd funded project...

Let's call it the Microsoft Goofy Gameplay Trap.

First Rare and Silicon Knights with right-stick combat, and now anyone developing for Kinect, I guess.

Also, looks like I will have to miss the final stream after all. Hosting a VIP party and slot tournament (working). :|

 

[Gattsu25]

Can we get a thread title rename since the live stream just started? or should that go in a new thread?


EDIT: made a thread for the livestream here..
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=660097

 

[Cmagus]

Real shame honestly this is certainly one of the nicer looking projects on Kickstarter. I really don't get the hate I mean the games SK made weren't that bad with the xmen game aside.

I don't get the hate towards Dyack honestly. May not agree with him but I mean I wouldn't hold it against this team as there are plenty of talented people on it.

 

[Card Boy]

This is what happens when you only stick with Kickstarter. At least with Indiegogo they would of got money even if they failed to reach their goal.

 

[ShellyDeKiller]

Man, this is so sad. I really wanted this game.

 

[Imbarkus]

Welp. That's it guys, official.

43.18% at $323,950.

Don't want to live on this plane anymore.

 

[blizzardjesus]

It's finally over. This does nothing else but show how toxic Denise's name and involvement is to a project.

 

[Imbarkus]

It's finally over. This does nothing else but show how toxic Denise's name and involvement is to a project.

It was a respectable campaign with a respectable demo of a game with a good concept. They ran an agile Kickstarter that listened to their fan's responses and adjusted.

They earned $323,950 from nearly 6,000 backers, plus garnered 40,000 votes on Steam Greenlight.

You are overstating the matter. This project will find a way, one way or another, with Denis Dyack. I can't wait for it!

 

[Lunzio]

This makes me sad. But I completely understand why.

 

[mrpeabody]

The other truly sad fact of the matter, being a horror game fan, is that our niche just doesn't seem to be able to generate as much revenue as we'd like to. Console publishers are unwilling to back a AAA horror game now unless it is essentially a shooter, chasing that RE4 acclaim and money. Yet meanwhile RE itself and its offshoots like Dead Space fade over time as the gameplay fails to support a horror experience, and is deadly similar to most everything else a player will have played.

The indie space recognizes the potential in horror storytelling/gameplay and has for a while, but I've about reached saturation for low-budget Slender clones and 16-bit zombies. But can a AAA horror game with non-shooter gameplay sell well?

I think Amnesia and Fatal Frame show that it's possible. I feel you on the disappointing turn that RE and Dead Space have taken.

Gestault, as to the matter of public record:
The management of Precursor Games is not the same as the management of Silicon Knights. This false equivalency was one of the most frustrating things about the PR of this campaign. Shawn Jackson and Paul Capporici are in charge of Precursor.

Nobody is falling for that "new company, new management" crap. Who runs Precursor? SK guys. Who owns it? SK guys, including one Denis Dyack. It is absolutely 100% fair and just that the reputation of SK and of Dyack follow their new company in whatever it does.

They don't want to be associated with their mistakes, and I understand that because they did some pretty dumb shit. But people aren't stupid.

 

[Imbarkus]

I think Amnesia and Fatal Frame show that it's possible. I feel you on the disappointing turn that RE and Dead Space have taken.

Well I imported this, but this series, as great as it is, falls in the Silent Hill, RE category of having been good last gen. I suppose it has the benefit of having mostly just sat out this generation, rather than mutating like the other two.

Frictional carries the torch. But Amnesia, as good as it is, is still not enough by itself.

Nobody is falling for that "new company, new management" crap. Who runs Precursor? SK guys. Who owns it? SK guys, including one Denis Dyack. It is absolutely 100% fair and just that the reputation of SK and of Dyack follow their new company in whatever it does.

They don't want to be associated with their mistakes, and I understand that because they did some pretty dumb shit. But people aren't stupid.

You know, I am starting to think so much of this is from the early mistake of debuting the company at the same time as the crowd-funding and the demo and all the media.

If the company was Silicon Knights, solvent somehow, and yet Denis Dyack stepped down from running the studio from a business standpoint, letting others in the company take the CEO and COO roles as he focused only on a creative role, would so many people still believe that it hadn't really happened and was somehow a ruse?

>:|

 

[partyphone]

I'm shocked that this ended in an entirely predictable manner.

 

[munroe]

So because Steam Greenlit 100 games today, Shadow of the Eternals was one of them. What does being Greenlit actually do? Does it only allow them to publish on Steam are they still needing funding via Kickstarter or some other sort of funding method.

 

[Purkake4]

So because Steam Greenlit 100 games today, Shadow of the Eternals was one of them. What does being Greenlit actually do? Does it only allow them to publish on Steam are they still needing funding via Kickstarter or some other sort of funding method.

Yup, just allows them the privilege of putting their games on Steam.

 

[Imbarkus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTaGn4fKsiM

Imbarkus added another episode!

Surprise! Part 3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lg4vgppFIU

 

[soultron]

Why not just make a new thread?

 

[doctorcdcs]

Why not just make a new thread?

Yeah, I actually thought they did another kickstarter when I saw the title.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Seriously, I was wondering what the bump was for and... ugh.

 

[Imbarkus]

Chapter 2 of Part 3: "Paul Caporicci: Re-Animator."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfcFbL2-h2Q

I don't think a new thread would be appropriate, I'm actually on-topic in this thread. I know my viewpoint on this isn't super-welcome but please consider the work and thought I've dedicated to crafting it. Thanks.

 

[Imbarkus]

Please don't hate me or ban me for bumping. I'm telling the story of this project from my perspective, and this is the thread to do that and be on-topic. There's a bunch of other old threads too, but I'm keeping it to this one.

Chapter 3 of Part 3: "At The Mountains of Bad Press"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXqO908ZYsY

I do not and have never supported any sordid hashtag campaigns. Peace.