The narrator Tolkien used for his book, you mean, right?
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'Shadow of War' Brings a Key First to Lord of the Rings: A Black Character
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JonnyDBrit
Member
It's a weird because while Tolkien leans into a bunch, he also plays with it a bit. Saruman the White is a traitor, while the 'dark lord' Sauron also has a deceptively beautiful form associated with light in the form of Annatar. Which makes the subsequent insistence it has to be retained with regards to the other peoples of Middle-Earth, and that the choice of such has no other implications whatsoever, a bit odd.
Thinking on it, the Shadow games do seem to be leaning into how the dualism of light and dark should not be applied to good vs evil, given Celebrimbor's desire to be a Bright Lord that would be implied to be as terrible as Sauron ever could be.
Well, technically Tolkien was the narrator, due to a premise of sorts where he was translating 'ancient documents' he found - which made 'translation errors' quite useful when he needed a retcon.
The translator of a foreign text is a well established narrator, though, and goes back many centuries. First novel to use it was El Quijote (1605), as far as I know. So, yeah, no.
In what age are we that people still think author and narrator are the same thing?
All this would do is move it back a step: "Tolkien created a racist narrator with which to describe his world." I don't think that changes much.
FF Seraphim
Member
I'm going to be honest when I read that passage the thought of Tolkien using that to describe how he thought of black people didn't even cross my mind. There is another passing reference to half-trolls in the same book and Tolkien was very clearly dealing with a duality of good vs. evil. Gandalf the White, Sauron the Black. So when it said black men like half-trolls, I just thought okay evil guys that Sauron made with white eyes that don't turn to stone when the sun hits them. Kind of like the Uruk-hai.
You do know that JRR Tolkien sold the rights to movies and games, not Christopher right?
JonnyDBrit
Member
Except it's kinda explicit when Tolkien and Lewis had whole letters where they discussed how to fix the story under the premise of discussing the 'accuracy' of the translation. Tolkien even invented the languages he was 'translating' from. Yes, translator/transcriber as author is a trope that's centuries old, but the specific execution in this regard is quite clearly intended as Tolkien himself. There is no other presumed narrator intended to have bias in this regard (ala Watson for Sir Doyle), unless you want to count the vague, unnamed authors of the 'original' texts.
So what? And Nabokov created a pedophile. Was he a pedophile? Come on, are we having this argument? For real?
He died in 1972?
Even in the case you were right, it'd be a case of style over substance. The narrator in Tolkien's works always talks positives about mixing races and puts the focus on racial differences being fruit of pain and despair. The "black people like orcs" phrase can only be understood in a style over substance enviroment reading the whole thing. He just wanted to make clear that these people under Sauron had lost all his humanity behind. Probably were black because back then it was somehow exotic thing and highlighted the difference between both worlds (that of light and darkness). It's very ignorant reading things from 80 years ago and try to make it work within today's reality.
eh, pointing/calling out something racist as racist, is hardly using a crucial social issue as a convenient platform to elevate oneself above others and framing it as such its actually quite damaging tbh.
Well, there's a difference between consciously constructing a pedophile character in a way that is clear and obvious to its intended audience, and constructing a racist narrator who was unlikely to be read as such around its original publication. You would have to argue that Tolkien saw his own narrator character as racist, in contrast to himself, but wrote the book in such a way that the audience of his day was unlikely to see it.
veloxStrix
Banned
I don't think I ever said that.
I mentioned that as a culture we do not make distinctions between racists. We are all racists. The idea that any single one of us has a perfect conceptual model of every race and culture is laughable at best. Yet that degree of racism is not separated in any linguistic fashion from the Klansmen who actively attempt to denounce and criticize the black person. This lack of distinction forms the backbone for both the "All racism should be called out" and the "Racism is overblown" or whatever the mindset of the common alt-right person is. A great example about the nature of racism comes from Glenn C. Loury's The Anatomy of Racism. Within he describes a scenario, a taxi cab driver is robbed by a black person. As a result, the taxi cab drivers comes to have a stigma against stopping for black people. Most black people who want to use the taxi realize they won't stop and have to find alternative methods of transportation, removing themselves from the pool, while the black person intent on robbing the cab driver remains behind. This increases the odds of the cab driver being robbed and reinforces their stigma. It is a near perfect example of how self-perpetuating stereotypes form and the issues they cause. But a problem arises when we start trying to point fingers at who is to blame. Is the taxi cab driver a racist? Of course. But by any metric he IS more likely to get robbed by black drivers at this point, so an outsider could perceive that he is justified without seeing the root cause. It is, fundamentally, a mistaken viewpoint but it also racism by definition. But if you were to call the cab driver a racist you make a negative connotation, an implicit - whether you intend to or not - declaration that puts him on the same level as the Klansman. Are you going to then convince him of the error of his ways after doing this? How is he going to perceive you?
Point out racism where you see it. It needs to be brought to people's attention otherwise people will have a false viewpoint. But calling out the racists will accomplish nothing other than inflating your sense of self-importance.
Have you read his works and have concluded the narrator is racist or you've been told?
Okay, I stand corrected. I read otherwise many years ago.
Christopher hates that his father sold the rights to it all.
The only positive he gets from it is the money and exposure to his father's works.
He heavily criticised Jackson for turning LOTR into (his [paraphrased] words) an action-fest for teenage boys.
Sounds juicy, care to share please?
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Character looks good, maybe one day we'll get a character creator that doesn't make non white people look inhumanly ugly.
I'm relying on the various secondary sources that are linked in this thread. At the very least, there are appear to be strong arguments for it. I grant that I am no scholar of Tolkien.
I'd recommend reading them first hand before calling someone racist.
Well, technically there were black people (and other minorities) in Laketown during The Hobbit movies but of course I don't think that was ever specified in the book.
The piece of shit made it rhyme too. Kinda explains why many lovecraftian horrors have some element of racism.
lightskintwin
Banned
Lovecraft had Battle rap bars.
Ordinaryundone
Member
As said earlier in the thread, Lovecraft was a gigantic racist but the associating the cosmic horror legacy with racism is a bit unfair because it's inherently coached in the fear of the different and unknown, which is often coming from the same place as racism but isn't biased against the other because of some belief in inferiority/superiority but in the understanding and existential dread of the insignificance of your own existence and how fragile it all is in the face of what's out there. Like, Shadow over Innsmouth isn't scary because "oh no racial mixing", it's scary because that racial mixing is indicative of just how much of a hand outside forces have on humanity, and the implication that they could have much more.
Ally of Justice
Member
While not especially thrilling to me, I hope he is more a "good character who happens to be black" than a "black character we included so to make out game more 'inclusive'".
JonnyDBrit
Member
It does lead one to wonder how much commentary there will be, if any at all. The invocation of the scholar makes it sound like they put particular thought in considering Baranor's origins - potential descendant of a Haradrim and all - but it could also just be a means of assuaging anyone trying to claim black Gondorians weren't canon, while in story it'll never be brought up at all.
You worded it much more eloquently than I could. I still feel weird loving lovecraft stories knowing how much of a pos he is.
To stay on topic, was Mr. Tolkien the same?
JonnyDBrit
Member
...so hilariously, after doing some searching, it turns out there's been a few characters named Baranor in the setting before. One is just a brief footnote in some ancient First Age history, but the other is the father of Beregond, a guard in Minas Tirith who was friends with Faramir, served as Pippin's guide around the city, and helped save Faramir's life when Denethor tried to burn them alive. I know it's probably just the case they wanted a canonical but relatively obscure Gondorian name, and so lifted it, but if he turned out to be that Baranor the sheer timeline fuckery would be amazing.
I don't know how you can type these things unironically. You're excusing the racism with the psychology that has always driven racism in the first place.
Ordinaryundone
Member
Because it's not the same thing. Like I said, they come from the same place, but being afraid a black guy might sleep with your daughter and being afraid that your town's and perhaps your own history are tainted by the legacy of evil fishmen inbreeding with the populace are two different sorts of xenophobia. The interbreeding wasn't necessarily the scary part (though obviously Lovecraft found it repugnant), it was the thought that some greater force (in this case Dagon) was manipulating and controlling humans down to literally breeding the human out of them. Treating our entire species like sacrifices or just some weird experiment. And if that was possible, and happening, what else might be?
They are similar, yes, and you can read into it all you want without necessarily being wrong in Lovecraft's case. But I don't think he created his works as a monument to his hate, just to his fear of literally everything.
Combichristoffersen
Combovers don't work when there is no hair
No.
IggyChooChoo
Member
I disagree -- I think they're very much the same. His description of fish-men are not that different from his reaction to "mongrel" Greek and Slavic immigrants, IMO. But that last bit makes me think we are kind of on the same page. No, he did not create his works as a monument to his racial hate. And yes, Lovecraft was consumed by fear and disgust and anger toward everything. I would put it more like his work is a monument to his pathology. He is quite a fascinating, brilliant, and unusual figure.
Well said. Anxiety and fear have always been the source of prejudice, intolerance, and hatred. Lovecraft's work may not be a "monument" to that fact, but it is an illustration of it.
And none of this is to say that Lovecraft's work has no value or significance today, or that anyone should feel guilty for enjoying it. Racists are people too. They can also make great work.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Plus, while we may take inspiration from their tropes, we can alter the particular contexts and circumstances so that, while retaining the core and important ideas of their work, we can adjust them or modern audiences and sensibilities, whether that's within the original canon body or in an new, unrelated property.
IggyChooChoo
Member
Absolutely! I love Tolkien; I think he's the master. I just want to see him with clear eyes, which means acknowledging his limitations. I think this character is a good step, and I like the idea of maybe one day exploring the Haradrim in a way to make them less two-dimensional.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Also just occurred to me, when they mention that 'Baranor's story' will be explored in the Desolation of Mordor DLC, do you think they mean we'll actually play him? Or just that we'll go on a specific quest in relation to him while still playing as Talion?
Because it'd be kinda neat in terms of unconventional difficulty if you have to play as a character who's just, well, human, in a game very much built around exploiting wraith powers for an unfair advantage.
Because it'd be kinda neat in terms of unconventional difficulty if you have to play as a character who's just, well, human, in a game very much built around exploiting wraith powers for an unfair advantage.
Thank you.
Night.Ninja
Banned
Ninja's in 4K!
DarkConfidant
Member
Racism.
Also, it's found throughout a lot of the genre. Everyone is usually white, if not pale.
The entire thread is about Tolkien being racist because of the lack of black humans, how he depicted the evil guys and other things.
Since i'm not a scholar of Tolkien i'm neither discussing the depiction of the enemies nor Tolkien's racism, i'm just saying that in general the lack of certain skin colors in a novel isn't necesserily a sign of racism, now the world is globalized and multicultural, but not too long ago things were really different with clear cultural differencies, maybe LOTR lacks black humans exactly because Tolkien was racist, but that's not the general rule.
Combichristoffersen
Combovers don't work when there is no hair
Lovecraft was a racist and somewhat antisemitic. Tolkien was, at worst, more of a Eurocentric, writing his legendarium from a Western European perspective.
tattooed_dwarf
Member
But he isn't talking about black people, he is talking about people from Far Harad, who are black, half-troll, with red tongues and white eyes. So you turn it into Tolkien thinkin black people are troll-like and he doesn't like how they look like? Just because Tolkien was racist especially on todays standards, don't take those writings out of context, it's so clear what he meant. Don't you see what you did there?
RedAssedApe
Banned
This thread title just immediately made me think of that black people in skyrim mv
https://youtu.be/PipsYsb7HaI
https://youtu.be/PipsYsb7HaI
JonnyDBrit
Member
...Well, no, the people of Far Harad are wholly human, as most of Sauron's minions outside of the orcs are, just they're described as looking like half-trolls. These are the same people who ride (giant) elephants and once you go farther south of the desert that is Near Harad, you will be met by lush jungle and forest, in an obvious parallel to Africa.
Guess no-one else wants to actually discuss the possibilities in Baranor's story?
tattooed_dwarf
Member
What I really like Tolkiens works are that sex isn't that big part of world he created. Sure there are some but he doesn't spend time describing it and it never is something that is main part of any character.
Damn, GWC disappeared. Wonder what's up with that.
Ordinaryundone
Member
Nah, we won't be playing as him almost certainly, given how intrinsically the game's mechanics are tied to Tallion and Celebrimbor's abilities. I guess they could do something similar to the Bright King but given how hard they are going in on the Nemesis system I can't see them doing ANOTHER DLC where they strip it out entirely.
That said, who knows? Maybe to let us play as him they'll just come up with some excuse for why Baranor can do the same stuff as Talion and call it a day. Or maybe it'll let us integrate Haradrim and other subjugated people's into Talion's army via Baranor. It'd be cool to be able to ride a Mumakil into battle, or deploy Southron pirates to attack your enemies.
shockthrill
Banned
the black and white dualism has its origins in early Christianity, before the concept of "whiteness/blackness" and modern race even was a thing.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Thing is, I could see it work since functionally he'd be like a barebones Talion in terms of sword and archery gameplay - the latter of which can just be a regular bow with arrows. As I said, it'd be kinda neat as an unconventional forms of difficulty, but I can see why any dev would be reluctant to implement that sort of thing.
God, riding a Mumakil would be amazing though. I was kinda disappointed when the first game just randomly adds a 'Great Beasts' entry when you're in southern Mordor and the game never even mentions in them in the story, let alone show one. Absolute tease.
tattooed_dwarf
Member
Still, he isn't saying black people look like half-trolls, he writes that people from Far harad are black and half-troll like. Like those rural area guys are short with hairy feet. Yes they aren't human, point is, don't use that sentence as proof that he is disgusted of how black people look like.
But yeah, about Baranor, thank god you just kept talking about him. I really hope that character is from South and brings stories from there, no matter how fanfiction it might be, hopefully he is actual character in actual game too, not just DLC.
I would love to see more games taking place in ME. Maybe see those blue wizards in easter lands or Dain defending Erebor.