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Shadowrun Returns Kickstarter project by Harebrained Schemes [Ended, $1.8M funded]
- Thread starter V_Ben
- Start date
I don't think it was.
xxjuicesxx
Member
I think they mentioned it during SXSW that Berlin wouldnt be released when the game was but not sure if they mentioned it initially from the beginning.
I really don't like berlin being paid dlc. we backed for it to be part of the main game, if they couldn't make it on time for the main game release it's fine, but it should be free afterwards for everyone that bought the game, during kickstarter or after.
I didn't want to finance their dlc, just the main game.
it's a shitty move if you ask me
I didn't want to finance their dlc, just the main game.
it's a shitty move if you ask me
I know what you are saying and I would also have liked if everyone could get the DLC for free, but by virtue of your argument, the same could be applied to the main game as well: i.e. it was already backed and funded, therefore it shouldn't be paid for by later purchasers. Therefore, I have to ask you: What's the difference between selling KS-funded DLC and selling a KS-funded game?
xxjuicesxx
Member
They just want to get the game out to the masses, the linux, additional languages and bonus campaign are all free and coming later when they finish up but they want to get all the finished stuff out.
the difference is that it wasn't dlc when we payed for it and it's really shady for them to make money separately off something that we payed for to be in the main game.
like I said, it's ok to compromise and release berlin as dlc if you can't make it all on your deadline (though that's their problem, not ours), but this feels like taking advantage.
it wasn't called dlc until this update afaik
second city is how it shows up on the stretch goals and survey, never says anything about dlc.
didn't really read all their post-ks updates, maybe they changed it later, but that doesn't really make it better.
I payed for X, not Y. don't change it.
xxjuicesxx
Member
Yup I see what you are saying that for us the game is Game w/ Berlin so why should others have to buy Game + Berlin.
The way I look at it is I put this money into Kickstarter so I've bough basically an LE version of the game, In fact I'm paying extra to get this stuff. So really I dont think anyone is getting screwed over.
trab pu kcip
Member
I have to agree. it's also a weird DLC really. I mean I can understand the other ones although I generally dont care for them but they are what they are: just some little extras for anyone who's willing to pay money for them but this already seems too "huge"
you don't expect this kinda thing from a KS game
It was called DLC several months back.
well like I said if it's after the ks ended then it's not any better.
there's changes and there's changes, this is not a nice thing to do, it's essentially a small fuck you (not gonna overreact, it's probably gonna be a 5 bucks thing) to both backers and non-backers, and it's the kind of thing you wouldn't want happening on a kickstarter project.
cj_iwakura
Member
They should've had a tier to include the Sega CD runners.
Ah well.
Ah well.
I have to agree. it's also a weird DLC really. I mean I can understand the other ones although I generally dont care for them but they are what they are: just some little extras for anyone who's willing to pay money for them but this already seems too "huge"
you don't expect this kinda thing from a KS game
Yeah, I feel like this is akin to the Starflight Inception DLC fiasco where they were going to have launch DLC for a Kickstarter game and everyone got super fucking pissed until they took it back. Using Kickstarter money for DLC development is really not cool. Anything funded by Kickstarter should be in the game.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/732317316/starlight-inceptiontm/posts/203313
Hairbrained Schemes had something similar too where they wanted to hold back a storyline from the game that would bridge the 16-bit game and this game from future purchasers. That decision was also overturned after a community outcry.
http://www.gamingbus.com/2012/04/17...un-returns-kickstarter-donaters-only-content/
I hope they'll listen to backer outcry about this one too but I think it gets a lot easier to ignore that kind of stuff when you already have the money. They've seemed pretty reasonable though so I guess we'll see.
trab pu kcip
Member
I didn't even know that. that's really strange. I mean they already got their original funding goal at that time D: imagine fargo pulling some shit like that with his KS campaigns, I'd be pissed. I guess they have their reasons, a statement would've been nice though
Well, they were doing it as a nice thing for long time fans. It definitely wasn't intended as some money grubbing thing. It's just no one really wanted game content to be held back for just backers. A lot of Kickstarter supporters, myself included, hate that kind of thing...the preorder and get X game content bonuses so there was a pretty strong reaction to it.
To their credit, they listened and reversed course.
The second city is a stretch goal that was reached and then backers got to vote on what it would actually be. It was never presented as a DLC to my recollection, just as an additional city that would be added to the game if the goal were reached.
Here is the post announcing the stretch goal: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1613260297/shadowrun-returns/posts/202725
And here are the posts about the vote: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1613260297/shadowrun-returns/posts?page=7
that's the core thing.
they really work you using the indie angle and if you're not careful they pull off some EA shit.
That's some Bullshit
Backers better complain till the cant complain anymore about it then.
I have to agree. it's also a weird DLC really. I mean I can understand the other ones although I generally dont care for them but they are what they are: just some little extras for anyone who's willing to pay money for them but this already seems too "huge"
you don't expect this kinda thing from a KS game
In a way I kind of expect this now. Without publishers the developers can make these decisions in an almost autonomous way. I'm not saying we need publishers to prevent this. I just mean that essentially developers don't really have to answer to anyone. They care about backer input but at the end of the day the decisions are all theirs.
I didn't back this because, among other reasons (too many other projects, not too interested, etc.) for some reason I didn't trust this one completely. I'm not looking for a pat on the back for being prescient. But I just had a strange suspicion about this one for some reason. I felt like the DLC card would be played later in development, and indeed it was.
It's still going to turn out fine and people are going to like the game, but it's disappointing that they're giving people a stripped DRM-free version of the game.
indigo-cyclops
Member
Totally agree, I knew something was off when I read the update. I don't remember it being branded as paid DLC. It was a stretch goal that would be part of the game. BACKERS of the Kickstarter should get it free.
backers already get it free. everyone else don't.
indigo-cyclops
Member
Ahh, I misread it then. That's good to know.
oh, then i retract my statement. Still, it's a weird move
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
That’s a pretty shitty excuse, it’s not like id or Valve ever made servers to handle Quake and Half-Life content back in the day yet those are still some of the games with the most community support so far. Just leave that up to the community, as long as you provide a fully functional game and tools for them to download. I don’t think anyone expected for them to build their own Steam-like service to handle all this automatically within the game. Well, it says you can’t manage that stuff “from within the game” so is it at least possible to do if you get the files elsewhere or are they still being somewhat dishonest with how they present the issue? Anyway, I’m sure something like a Shadowrun Returns Nexus or similar would show up if the game’s tools are any good. They never said the DRM-free version would not be fully functional though, as in, be unable to get patches, DLC or fan created content. At the very least they should provide a fully patched version of the main game + first “DLC” and tools for every backer whenever they release a patch for the Steam version. They will already be going through the trouble of maintaining some version's game files on a server with backer authentication, why not update it to the latest version? Well, with it being backer-only I suppose appeal would be limited and such mod websites wouldn't have a reason to file host, just post about what's cool on the workshop, it's kind of weird they don't also want to be sold on gog by providing such a version on there. Then again their Kickstarter didn't only promise a DRM-free release for backers, they promised a wide DRM-free release through their own website, with the Steam release secondary, which inspires such possibilities, so this isn't even a half-measure.
From a developer standpoint, how much extra work would it be to make DLC/expansions available at a place like GOG in the form of separate installers?
Regarding user-created content, could there be a way to save maps/scenarios/whetever the content, drop them into a subfolder within the game's directory, and load them in the game?
My gut instinct would say this is possible and wouldn't be too difficult to implement. But having Steam Workshop exclusivity streamlines everything and at the same time facilitates more activity, more sharing, more discussion, etc. compared to people posting on forums and such.
Regarding user-created content, could there be a way to save maps/scenarios/whetever the content, drop them into a subfolder within the game's directory, and load them in the game?
My gut instinct would say this is possible and wouldn't be too difficult to implement. But having Steam Workshop exclusivity streamlines everything and at the same time facilitates more activity, more sharing, more discussion, etc. compared to people posting on forums and such.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
I understand their choice. They are a really small team, so being able to pass off infrastructure to a cohesive environment like Steam is a huge burden lifted off their shoulders. For super popular games a natural modding community can be a viable (if clumsy) option, but for a project like this you need to consolidate and expand your community. Steam also provides massive advertising that they can't do on their own that is critical for success of the game and thus their continued ability to keep up with it and future projects. Whatever extent that Steam helps bring people in, those players will be playing the Steam version, so for them modding through Steam will be ideal.
To put things into place outside of Steam, you have a separation between download location and mod location, and possibly a separate discussion location as well. Aside from the mod hosting needing to either be a huge burdensome project on them or entirely up to a third party, this separation of resources and community breaks apart the community and hinders interactivity. Beyond the breakup of community and services, it also spreads out the channels and manifestations of the game in the world making it more difficult for them to be involved and aware of what is going on with players, how they are experiencing the game and what they desire, and thus the natural direction the franchise overall is taking as the culture gets involved with it. Seeing as how they are already trying to consolidate all Shadowrun communities under shadowrun.com it is no surprise that they want to try and keep release of the project they are responsible for in a single channel. Again, you really need to keep in mind just how small the team is and what kind of funding they have. This game has them in a precarious position, a gamble on a dream.
To put things into place outside of Steam, you have a separation between download location and mod location, and possibly a separate discussion location as well. Aside from the mod hosting needing to either be a huge burdensome project on them or entirely up to a third party, this separation of resources and community breaks apart the community and hinders interactivity. Beyond the breakup of community and services, it also spreads out the channels and manifestations of the game in the world making it more difficult for them to be involved and aware of what is going on with players, how they are experiencing the game and what they desire, and thus the natural direction the franchise overall is taking as the culture gets involved with it. Seeing as how they are already trying to consolidate all Shadowrun communities under shadowrun.com it is no surprise that they want to try and keep release of the project they are responsible for in a single channel. Again, you really need to keep in mind just how small the team is and what kind of funding they have. This game has them in a precarious position, a gamble on a dream.
I imagine it's not negligible work or else they'd do it. it's still a shit move.
I don't think so. it wasn't even suggested, it's just what you'd expect after decades of modding not requiring the workshop (which I imagine is more work than regular modding anyways).
Yea I don't mean negligible, but manageable. I can't disagree with their personal logic. It's my intuition that says the decision above all is simply about having the core community on Steam, which allows people to create, share, and discuss much more easily. This facilitates the game being more popular, which attracts more people, and so on. But yea, it's too bad for the DRM-free version.
They're doing an update on Friday to answer questions. I doubt they'll about-face on Steam Workshop-exclusive modding, but maybe there's a chance they'll at least make official expansions and DLC available DRM-free so those people can get all the content they paid for in the method they expected or were guaranteed.
However, steam workshop is far from perfect. Compared to the Nexus, the service has a lot to improve. Take Skyrim for example, where most of the greatest mods are not on Steam Workshop. Its not because the mod author doesn't want it there (though this is the case sometimes), but because you can't put mods on SW that require an esm file (a master file that allows for much deeper mods) or are over a certain file size.
trab pu kcip
Member
I really didn't expect that and that's mainly because there's no big ass publisher involved, I thought it would take things back to simpler and more genuine methods of marketing and distribution, I thought that's what the funded by fans thing was also about. DRM and DLC weren't words I thought about at all in the context of KS. maybe it was just me being naive but if inxile tried to sell my the special blue and green dotted tide via DLC I'd punch a wall.
Vlodril
Member
My problem with the second city being dlc its that it was misrepresented in the ks. when i read second city goal i expect it to be in game as i expect the second planescape city to be in game. Some times when i am done with a game i do not play any dlc for it (most times).
Anyway it is a bit shady for my tastes. The game still looks good and all it was just offputing. I hope other devs wont follow their example there. Also their lack of communication for it (was it a time constrain time or what?) doesn't really inspire me to give any money to them again if they go the ks route.
The good news is that the game is coming really soon and it looks great. So we 'll see how i feel after i played it.
Weird they will not be on GOG too since its a site build for non drm releases.
Anyway it is a bit shady for my tastes. The game still looks good and all it was just offputing. I hope other devs wont follow their example there. Also their lack of communication for it (was it a time constrain time or what?) doesn't really inspire me to give any money to them again if they go the ks route.
The good news is that the game is coming really soon and it looks great. So we 'll see how i feel after i played it
.Weird they will not be on GOG too since its a site build for non drm releases.
I'm not sure how it's actually implemented but GOG does do updates for games. I can't imagine it would be too hard and more than likely the GOG guys would be more than happy to make themselves available to make it easy for HBS if those dudes would give them half a chance.
My problem with the second city being dlc its that it was misrepresented in the ks. when i read second city goal i expect it to be in game as i expect the second planescape city to be in game. Some times when i am done with a game i do not play any dlc for it (most times).
Anyway it is a bit shady for my tastes. The game still looks good and all it was just offputing. I hope other devs wont follow their example there. Also their lack of communication for it (was it a time constrain time or what?) doesn't really inspire me to give any money to them again if they go the ks route.
The good news is that the game is coming really soon and it looks great. So we 'll see how i feel after i played it
Weird they will not be on GOG too since its a site build for non drm releases.
I agree with this absolutely here are my thoughts that I posted on the Kickstarter as a backer. Hopefully someone there will listen if people make enough nosie about this stuff:
I was told by another backer that "we" have known this since January...here is the "announcement":
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1613260297/shadowrun-returns/posts/388738
Embedded in other, unrelated text in a huge wall of text. I said wow.
Why?They should've had a tier to include the Sega CD runners.
Ah well.
also it's a post-kickstarter update, so we were misled during the actual kickstarter days that it'd be part of the main game and also free to everyone that buys the main game would get it as part of it for free.I'm not sure how it's actually implemented but GOG does do updates for games. I can't imagine it would be too hard and more than likely the GOG guys would be more than happy to make themselves available to make it easy for HBS if those dudes would give them half a chance.
I agree with this absolutely here are my thoughts that I posted on the Kickstarter as a backer. Hopefully someone there will listen if people make enough nosie about this stuff:
I was told by another backer that "we" have known this since January...here is the "announcement:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1613260297/shadowrun-returns/posts/388738
Embedded in other, unrelated text in a huge wall of text. I said wow.
To be fair, while I agree they could have been clearer, I was expecting it to be DLC anyway.
I said early on that I thought the game might be going for a very tabletop approach:
So take this initial release as the base sourcebook and introductory campaign, and take the Berlin release as a sourcebook introducing new gameplay elements with its own campaign, it does make some sense that they would have been planning to monetise each new 'sourcebook' in turn; since I'd always viewed it as that, I'm not hugely surprised that that seems to be how they were doing it!
(As an aside: I will be rather disappointed if Berlin is fundamentally only a tileset and a new campaign. New sourcebooks would ideally lead to new gameplay elements! What did Berlin actually introduce to the original game, anyway?)
I said early on that I thought the game might be going for a very tabletop approach:
So take this initial release as the base sourcebook and introductory campaign, and take the Berlin release as a sourcebook introducing new gameplay elements with its own campaign, it does make some sense that they would have been planning to monetise each new 'sourcebook' in turn; since I'd always viewed it as that, I'm not hugely surprised that that seems to be how they were doing it!
(As an aside: I will be rather disappointed if Berlin is fundamentally only a tileset and a new campaign. New sourcebooks would ideally lead to new gameplay elements! What did Berlin actually introduce to the original game, anyway?)
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
So you made the right guess out of thin air, great for you, their campaign was still dishonestly presented.
Again, people funded Shadowrun Returns, not Shadowrun Returns Book I and a different Shadowrun Returns Book II nor was it mentioned before the campaign's end that the second city would be DLC for non backers.
People also funded a game they at the time intended to release to the public, not just to backers, as a fully functional DRM-free version, and possibly via Steam. Now only backers get it DRM-free, with gimped support.
And sure, they don't explicitly state just how gimped the DRM-free release is going to be but if it's not at all they'd have no reason not to still sell it to others, or give an additional Steam copy to backers.
There's just no way to claim they were honest about it, whether some people are ok with/actually prefer the changes, or not.
Again, people funded Shadowrun Returns, not Shadowrun Returns Book I and a different Shadowrun Returns Book II nor was it mentioned before the campaign's end that the second city would be DLC for non backers.
People also funded a game they at the time intended to release to the public, not just to backers, as a fully functional DRM-free version, and possibly via Steam. Now only backers get it DRM-free, with gimped support.
And sure, they don't explicitly state just how gimped the DRM-free release is going to be but if it's not at all they'd have no reason not to still sell it to others, or give an additional Steam copy to backers.
There's just no way to claim they were honest about it, whether some people are ok with/actually prefer the changes, or not.
I'm... not claiming otherwise? Just stating my observations at the time and now. The only thing I would add to it is that I'm regarding this as a promise on the Kickstarter that was left unmet, but by the very nature of Kickstarter I'm expecting promises to be left unmet from time to time.
Vyse The Legend
Member
I backed the game to get the game.
I am getting the game. I don't feel deceived in the slightest.
But seriously, please stop crapping up every Shadowrun thread with anti-HBS stuff. We get it; you think they lied/deceived. It was appropriate in the release date thread; now, it's just excessive.
I'd actually like to discuss the game, for once, and this is suppose to be the thread for it.
Actually it's the thread to discuss the kickstarter, which is what he is posting about.
Vyse The Legend
Member
Title aside, this thread has become the main unofficial pre-release thread. I'd rather not see every thread be about HBS's alleged crimes against humanity from here on out. That's all I'm saying. We already did that song and dance in the release date thread.
Well, they did what they did and people are going to discuss it. You're just going to have ignore discussions that you don't want to participate in I reckon.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Like I said, whether you're happy with it or not doesn't change the fact they promised things they're not delivering. You not reading or not caring about those things doesn't change it.
Good for you that you're happy, I don't see why you need to tell me so when I didn't try to say you're unhappy, I've merely posted my thoughts on it and also explained the issue when I thought people didn't understand.
Saying you personally don't care about the issue is fine and all, I just don't see why it's a reply to my post.
Yeah, I don't think I have a reason to do as you wish. I'll discuss what I want, when I want, in the threads I deem appropriate for it.
Then don't reply to me and discuss the game as you wish. I didn't force you to jump on me there.
cj_iwakura
Member
They're cool.