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[lunarworks]

The media really fucked this one up, eh?

The number of shooters went from two to three to one, who was dead but then alive again.

It's called a "Developing Story" for a reason. (For that matter, "Breaking News" is an overused, and frequently wrongly-applied term.)

When a location is under lock-down, and you're relying on frantic phone calls, you're not gong to get accurate information immediately. The immediacy of our culture only makes it worse.

 

[jason10mm]

I disagree with calling this a "terrorist" attack, despite it being terrifying and happening to my fellow soldiers.

This guy, if he does turn out to be the shooter and acting alone, is a UNIFORMED soldier and attacked mostly other soldiers. So he is a TRAITOR, but hardly a terrorist himself (though it may come out that he had contact with terrorists).

Should the story remain the same, I hope he has a fast court martial followed by summary execution.

And it is indeed a sad truth that soldiers are most vulnerable at their HOME BASE. If this guy had decided to shoot up a diner off post or a base in a combat zone there would have been a much greater chance of immediate retaliation. I'd like to think this would relax the restrictions for conceal carry on-post, but I know that ain't gonna happen (and in fact restrictions will probably increase).

 

[Chrono]

Bullshit.

Those were soldiers going to war. They were adults and they made the decision to participate in the US army.

A US spy or expat that shoots up militants preparing to go kill americans in afghanistan or iraq would be hailed as a hero in the states, and not a terrorist.

It doesn't matter whether you support what he did or not - it's not terrorism. Even if he's part of al-qaeda and received direct orders from bin laden, it's still not terrorism. Al-qaeda would still be a terrorist organization, but this attack would not be classified as one of their terrorist attacks because they didn't go after civilians, just like their USS cole attack.

So he is a TRAITOR

From your perspective perhaps, but as a muslim his loyalty is only to allah and the islamic ummah.

i like that you are offended by this and not the guy who thinks bin laden is a reasonable guy and 9/11 is understandable on the same page.

Who are you talking about?

But I do agree with the statment that 9/11 was understandable. Doesn't mean one has to agree with the attack though.

9/11 is understandable like nuking half a dozen muslim cities would be understandable. Somehow I don't think you'd be so sympathetic in that case.

 

[gcubed]

I agree it has a structural bias towards business and government as all other corporate media do, but what is your view of the underlying source, General Cone? Is he a credible source?

i must say this is a much better response the the "fuckwit" that sprang to my mind

 

[Woodsy]

I don't think he's the one that doesn't get it.

Right, you don't either. When you are the de facto head of the military and there is a shooting that kills 12 people on one of your bases, you might want to address that first when you step to the podium at a conference, regardless of how much you want to communicate to the conference attendees that you want to work with them on getting things related to the conference done.

This wasn't Bush's response on-the spot when being told about a plane hitting the WTC (he could have showed more urgency), this was 4 hours after the attack occured on the base.

 

[squicken]

I don't think he's the one that doesn't get it.


what terrorist organization does the shooter belong to?

Is the criteria for being a terrorist that one belong to a terrorist organization?

 

[Joel Was Right]

Is a Muslim soldier able to get himself honourably discharged or moved away from combat status? A Muslim soldier going against his unit in this context is nothing new. I remember reading back a few years ago one using a grenade overseas. The US military surely must have a strategy for situations like this. In a way I'm not surprised but I'm shocked that some disgruntled soldier would go and randomly shoot other soldiers and risk the lives of innocents.

I don't know whether this can be classed as an act of terrorism in the conventional sense or some kind of psychological issue

 

[Death Dealer]

Is a Muslim soldier able to get himself honourably discharged or moved away from combat status?

Based on what ?

 

[scorcho]

Right, you don't either. When you are the de facto head of the military and there is a shooting that kills 12 people on one of your bases, you might want to address that first when you step to the podium at a conference, regardless of how much you want to communicate to the conference attendees that you want to work with them on getting things related to the conference done.

No, it's manufactured political controversy trying to reinforce conservative dogma that liberals don't care about the military. Much like your previous (and fascinating) thread about how Sesame Street was somehow targeting Fox News (disregarding the jab at CNN=GNN in that same video) - you see what you want to believe.

as for parallels to 9/11 - i think you're being a bit too generous in trying to make a 1:1 comparison, but again, your objective.

Is the criteria for being a terrorist that one belong to a terrorist organization?

using mckmas' example, sure.

 

[adamsappel]

Just watched the video and HOLY SHIT Obama does not get it. OK, I understand he was at a conference concerning Native Americans, but didn't he/his handlers realize that this was his fist time on TV after the tragic events at a military base (hello - COMMANDER IN CHIEF) and he starts by giving 2 minutes of lip service to the audience about the conference, how they will work together, a shout out to a Medal of Honor winner, and only then says "You might have heard that there was a shooting at a military base...."

When I first saw this posted, I assumed that his "shout out" was kind of off to the side before he took the podium, but that was not the case.

Say what you want, Obama was either oblivious to the seriousness of the shootings or he just didn't give a rat's ass and thought giving lip service to the conference attendees was more important on his agenda than getting right to addressing the shootings. Either way it was damn awkward.

"Now watch me make this drive."

Honestly, I never know the "right way" people are supposed to act. It was obvious Bush had no clue what he was supposed to do when he was told of the WTC attacks. Clinton sees he got caught laughing at something at a funeral and puts on a big weepy face. I have a suspicion that you would also criticize Obama were he to first make a statement about the shooting, and then move on to his prepared remarks. If it were an actual national emergency, I'm sure he would have led with that, but in the end, it's little more than a tragic workplace shooting.

 

[APF]

Note that military personnel are not the only people who are allowed in military bases.

 

[linkboy]

"Now watch me make this drive."

Honestly, I never know the "right way" people are supposed to act. It was obvious Bush had no clue what he was supposed to do when he was told of the WTC attacks. Clinton sees he got caught laughing at something at a funeral and puts on a big weepy face. I have a suspicion that you would also criticize Obama were he to first make a statement about the shooting, and then move on to his prepared remarks. If it were an actual national emergency, I'm sure he would have led with that, but in the end, it's little more than a tragic workplace shooting.

Here's the thing though, he's the Commander in Chief of the whole US military. In essence, he's pretty much their (and my) boss.

The military, on average, tends to lean towards the right, do you really think something like this is going to make him look better in the eyes of members of the military.

 

[scorcho]

The military, on average, tends to lean towards the right, do you really think something like this is going to make him look better in the eyes of members of the military.

Interested by this - are the optics of Obama's response more important than, say, his push to drastically scale back the stop-loss policy?

 

[DevelopmentArrested]

Note that military personnel are not the only people who are allowed in military bases.

Bruno?

 

[Joel Was Right]

Based on what ?

The legality over the wars, and even their revelance, has been a topic of debate in the US for almost the last decade. Many Muslims interpret them in a simplistic view that it just 'foreign aggression against our people'. It's similar to how some Jews abroad feel a cultural and personal identity with the state and land of Israel. I have a few Jewish friends who aren't really religious or political but admit to, if needed, they would enlist to protect that country from aggressors.

If this general was a devout man as described then naturally you will find a conflict of interest between a sense of nationalism, if he is patriotric, and a sense of injustice sparked from his spiritual side. If there are facilities and counselling provided for those who suffer post-traumatic stress, then I'm sure there is similar for those who experience mental illness before deployment. It just seems odd that they wouldn't be aware how such a controversial war would impact the psyche of their Muslim soldiers. I know for a fact that such Muslims are seen in particularly bad light in the Muslim community.

 

[APF]

Bruno?

Or http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/06/national/main5549388.shtml

 

[linkboy]

Interested by this - are the optics of Obama's response more important than, say, his push to drastically scale back the stop-loss policy?

All I'm saying is that there are people in the military who don't like him, the way he handled this is going to make that worse.

I'm in the Air Force and I see people criticize him just about every day.

 

[Death Dealer]

Interested by this - are the optics of Obama's response more important than, say, his push to drastically scale back the stop-loss policy?

He got a record 15% increase to the VA budget this year.
Actions speak louder than words.

 

[scorcho]

All I'm saying is that there are people in the military who don't like him, the way he handled this is going to make that worse.

I'm in the Air Force and I see people criticize him just about every day.

And what would make it better? If there's a group already predisposed to dislike an individual (for whatever reason), it quickly becomes a situation of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[APF]

Why are we arguing against tact and appropriate levels of solemnity?

 

[RiZ III]

I'm glad this dude survived. It's frustrating when these shooters like at Virgina Tech and Columbine kill themselves, so many questions get left unanswered. Hope he rots in prison for the rest of his life or gets capital punishment.

 

[TruHero]

All I'm saying is that there are people in the military who don't like him, the way he handled this is going to make that worse.

I'm in the Air Force and I see people criticize him just about every day.

And those people will never like Obama no matter what he does. He could authorize 50% pay increases, increase military budget, increase their paid time off, etc and they would still not vote for him.

Partisans will be partisans

 

[Death Dealer]

The legality over the wars

"I don't agree with the war" has never worked. People have tried. I think it's settled law.

If one doesn't support war, they can conscientiously object beforehand. They have to make it difficult for people to walk when the going gets tough. This guy got a free MD degree in lieu of military service. He volunteered. No way they should give him an honorable discharge and a plane ticket home.

If this war was truly against his conscience and he couldn't live with himself, he could have flat refused to go, took the punishment, probably a few years in jail, and be done with it. But he made the decision to become a cowardly suicide bomber. I hope he lives in a 8x8 cell in Leavenworth, without human contact, for the rest of his life.

 

[Agent Ironside]

Just watched the video and HOLY SHIT Obama does not get it. OK, I understand he was at a conference concerning Native Americans, but didn't he/his handlers realize that this was his fist time on TV after the tragic events at a military base (hello - COMMANDER IN CHIEF) and he starts by giving 2 minutes of lip service to the audience about the conference, how they will work together, a shout out to a Medal of Honor winner, and only then says "You might have heard that there was a shooting at a military base...."

When I first saw this posted, I assumed that his "shout out" was kind of off to the side before he took the podium, but that was not the case.

Say what you want, Obama was either oblivious to the seriousness of the shootings or he just didn't give a rat's ass and thought giving lip service to the conference attendees was more important on his agenda than getting right to addressing the shootings. Either way it was damn awkward.

Yeah, my friend and I was watching it at work and we didnt even think we were watching the right video at first, with the shout outs and everything lol, we didnt understand what was going on and it was just odd, but then he finally mentioned the shootings after a while.

 

[mckmas8808]

The only reason this bothers me is because I'm in the military and he's the Commander in Chief, and the incident in question happened at a military installation.

So did you care about all the other stuff that he did actually say about the incident?

 

[crazy monkey]

I'm glad this dude survived. It's frustrating when these shooters like at Virgina Tech and Columbine kill themselves, so many questions get left unanswered. Hope he rots in prison for the rest of his life or gets capital punishment.

agreed.

 

[adamsappel]

Here's the thing though, he's the Commander in Chief of the whole US military. In essence, he's pretty much their (and my) boss.

The military, on average, tends to lean towards the right, do you really think something like this is going to make him look better in the eyes of members of the military.

What about his response was lacking? Again, he was there for a specific event. Should he have not spoken about the event at all? Honestly, if he had talked about the shooting first, and then segued into the event, you'd be bitching about that.

It's like with his recent trip to honor the soldiers in their caskets. How can anybody legitimately criticize that? Yet, there they were. "Why is it being photographed?" "He's not in the military, why is he saluting?" "Why did he go in the middle of the night?" Obama can do no right by some, and criticizing every. fucking. thing he does makes the legitimate criticisms of him seem like just more piling on.

Edit: HOLY FUCKING SHIT! YOU GUYS ARE CRAZY! Obama makes a few remarks, and then says "I have to say, though, that beyond that, I had planned to make some broader remarks about the challenges that lay ahead for Native Americans as well as collaboration with our administration, but as some of you might have heard, there has been a tragic shooting..." He talks for barely over a minute about the conference.

 

[APF]

So did you care about all the other stuff that he did actually say about the incident?

Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the show?

 

[SmokyDave]

What about his response was lacking? Again, he was there for a specific event. Should he have not spoken about the event at all? Honestly, if he had talked about the shooting first, and then segued into the event, you'd be bitching about that.

It's like with his recent trip to honor the soldiers in their caskets. How can anybody legitimately criticize that? Yet, there they were. "Why is it being photographed?" "He's not in the military, why is he saluting?" "Why did he go in the middle of the night?" Obama can do no right by some, and criticizing every. fucking. thing he does makes the legitimate criticisms of him seem like just more piling on.

Edit: HOLY FUCKING SHIT! YOU GUYS ARE CRAZY! Obama makes a few remarks, and then says "I have to say, though, that beyond that, I had planned to make some broader remarks about the challenges that lay ahead for Native Americans as well as collaboration with our administration, but as some of you might have heard, there has been a tragic shooting..." He talks for barely over a minute about the conference.

Y'know, I really don't think they would have been. I think that might be the point they are making, the solemn acknowledgement of this tragedy should have come before everything else.

 

[mckmas8808]

I disagree with calling this a "terrorist" attack, despite it being terrifying and happening to my fellow soldiers.

This guy, if he does turn out to be the shooter and acting alone, is a UNIFORMED soldier and attacked mostly other soldiers. So he is a TRAITOR, but hardly a terrorist himself (though it may come out that he had contact with terrorists).

Should the story remain the same, I hope he has a fast court martial followed by summary execution.

And it is indeed a sad truth that soldiers are most vulnerable at their HOME BASE. If this guy had decided to shoot up a diner off post or a base in a combat zone there would have been a much greater chance of immediate retaliation. I'd like to think this would relax the restrictions for conceal carry on-post, but I know that ain't gonna happen (and in fact restrictions will probably increase).

Domestic Terrorism?

Under current United States law, set forth in the USA PATRIOT Act, acts of domestic terrorism are those which: "(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State; (B) appear to be intended— (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and (C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi...=107_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ056.107.pdf

Look at page 106 of that document.

To me based on the "current" definition of domestic terrorism, this act could be consider a terrorist attack.

 

[Woodsy]

What about his response was lacking? Again, he was there for a specific event. Should he have not spoken about the event at all? Honestly, if he had talked about the shooting first, and then segued into the event, you'd be bitching about that.

It's like with his recent trip to honor the soldiers in their caskets. How can anybody legitimately criticize that? Yet, there they were. "Why is it being photographed?" "He's not in the military, why is he saluting?" "Why did he go in the middle of the night?" Obama can do no right by some, and criticizing every. fucking. thing he does makes the legitimate criticisms of him seem like just more piling on.

Edit: HOLY FUCKING SHIT! YOU GUYS ARE CRAZY! Obama makes a few remarks, and then says "I have to say, though, that beyond that, I had planned to make some broader remarks about the challenges that lay ahead for Native Americans as well as collaboration with our administration, but as some of you might have heard, there has been a tragic shooting..." He talks for barely over a minute about the conference.

I have no problem with him going to Dover to honor the soldiers.

He didn't just make a "few" remarks - he went on for about 2 minutes as if he wasn't even thinking about addressing the shooting before he got to it. The right way to handle it would have been to simply start out: "Thank you for having me here today. Before I address the conference, many of you have already heard about the shooting that took place today....." Regardless of what his writers had for him on the TOTUS, he should have had mind enough to know that it required immediate attention.

 

[mckmas8808]

9/11 is understandable like nuking half a dozen muslim cities would be understandable. Somehow I don't think you'd be so sympathetic in that case.

I completely disagree with the nuke bombings of Japan. COMPLETELY disagree with them. But I still think those were "understandable". Doesn't mean I have to agree with them.

 

[empty vessel]

Note that military personnel are not the only people who are allowed in military bases.

Note that civilians were killed during the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Terrorist attack? Also note that the US military kills civilians during its military operations. Terrorist attacks?

 

[Instigator]

Domestic Terrorism?

Sounds more like a guy who snapped, based on what we know.

 

[APF]

Note that civilians were killed during the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Terrorist attack? Also note that the US military kills civilians during its military operations. Terrorist attacks?

Did I not specifically say, it's wrong to call this a terrorist attack? Did you not see that post?

 

[mckmas8808]

using mckmas' example, sure.

Nope I didn't say that. That's you making stuff up again.

 

[adamsappel]

I have no problem with him going to Dover to honor the caskets.

He didn't just make a "few" remarks - he went on for about 2 minutes as if he wasn't even thinking about addressing the shooting before he got to it. The right way to handle it would have been to simply start out: "Thank you for having me here today. Before I address the conference, many of you have already heard about the shooting that took place today....." Regardless of what his writers had for him on the TOTUS, he should have had mind enough to know that it required immediate attention.

TOTUS? That's good. That says more about your Obama mindset than anything else. You know, you should come back to the PoliGAF thread. It's obvious you're not taking the high road, you're just coming off like a timid little bitch.

This is Obama's opening statement. It takes a little over 90 seconds, with breaks for applause and in that semi-irritating halting way of his:

Please, everybody, have a seat. Let me first of all just thank Ken and the entire Department of the Interior staff for organizing just an extraordinary conference.

I want to thank my Cabinet members and senior administration officials who participated today. I hear that Dr. Joe Medicine Crow (ph) was around, and so I want to give a shout out to that Congressional Medal of Honor winner. It's good to see you.

(APPLAUSE)

My understanding is is that you had an extremely productive conference. I want to thank all of you for coming and for your efforts, and I want to give you my solemn guarantee that this is not the end of a process, but the beginning of a process and that we are going to follow up.

(APPLAUSE)

We are going to follow up. Every single member of my team understands that this is a top priority for us. I want you to know that, as I said this morning, this -- this is not something that we just give lip service to. And we are going to keep on working with you to make sure that the first Americans (ph) get the best possible chances in life in a way that's consistent with your extraordinary traditions and culture and values.

This is his remark about the shooting:

Now, I have to say, though, that beyond that, I had planned to make some broader remarks about the challenges that lay ahead for Native Americans as well as collaboration with our administration.

But as some of you might have heard, there has been a tragic shooting at the Fort Hood Army base in Texas. We don't yet know all the details at this moment. We will share them as we get them.

What we do know is that a number of American soldiers have been killed, and even more have been wounded in a horrific outburst of violence.

My immediate thoughts and prayers are with the wounded and with the families of the fallen and with those who live and serve at Fort Hood.

These are men and women who have made the selfless and courageous decision to risk and at times give their lives to protect the rest of us on a daily basis.

It's difficult enough when we lose these brave Americans in battles overseas.

It is horrifying that they should come under fire at an Army base on American soil.

I've spoken to Secretary Gates and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Mike Mullen, and I will continue to receive a constant stream of updates as new information comes in.

We are working with the Pentagon, the FBI, the Department of Homeland Security, all to ensure that Fort Hood is secure and we will continue to support the community with the full resources of the federal government. In the meantime, I would ask all Americans to keep the men and women of Fort Hood in your thoughts and prayers. We will make sure that we get answers to every single question about this horrible incident, and I want all of you to know that as commander-in-chief, there's no greater honor, but also no greater responsibility for me than to make sure that the extraordinary men and women in uniform are properly cared for an that their safety and security when they are at home is provided for.

So we are going to stay on this, but I hope in the meantime that all of you recognize the scope of this tragedy and keep everybody in their thoughts and prayers. Again, thank you for your participation here today. I am confident that this is going to be resulting in terrific work between this government and your governments in the weeks, the months and years to come.

God bless you and God bless the United States of America.

Thank you.

I'll grant that "shout out" seems a little folksy. And he doesn't even make his prepared remarks. Again, I think if he had done so, you and yours would be criticizing him for that, too.

Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the show?

The above is not on the same level as "Now watch me make this drive." You should understand the difference.

 

[Woodsy]

The above is not on the same level as "Now watch me make this drive." You should understand the difference.

LOL, is this a Bush golf reference? You know he gave up golf in 2003 because, in his conscience (his words), he did not want to be seen out golfing and relaxing on the weekend while he was sending troops off to war, knowing some of them weren't coming back.

 

[APF]

The above is not on the same level as "Now watch me make this drive." You should understand the difference.

You mean when Bush was asked a question while he was golfing?

 

[dave is ok]

People complaining about Obama talking for under three minutes before mentioning the incident should really get a hobby or something.

This wasn't a 9/11 caliber event, it was more like a school/workplace shooting

 

[DigitalDevil]

I completely disagree with the nuke bombings of Japan. COMPLETELY disagree with them. But I still think those were "understandable". Doesn't mean I have to agree with them.

uhhhhhh, if you can relate to the choice as understandable, then you don't really COMPLETELY disagree with them then do you?

 

[Stinkles]

There are some people in this thread with fucking despicably short memories that really, really need to examine where they get their information from and how they digest it. Talk about a fucking reach. Clowns.

 

[APF]

I don't think adamsappel is that bad. He just forgets the context of that quote because it's been so widely lampooned.

 

[Woodsy]

People complaining about Obama talking for under three minutes before mentioning the incident should really get a hobby or something.

This wasn't a 9/11 caliber event, it was more like a school/workplace shooting

Exactly - it would be like there being a shooting at Cupertino and then 4 hours later Steve Jobs gets up at the Apple WWDC keynote and rambles on for a couple minutes about how glad he was that everyone was there...hey, shout out to Andy Inhatko...I really look forward to working with everybody. Oh, BTW as you might have heard, 12 people were gunned down at our offices this afternoon....

 

[Stinkles]

I don't think adamsappel is that bad. He just forgets the context of that quote because it's been so widely lampooned.

Whatever gets you through the day.

 

[APF]

Whatever gets you through the day.

I just don't take it as a personal indictment on him.

 

[bob_arctor]

Yankee parade is fucking awesome! Really lightens my spirits after this awful national tragedy.

 

[scorcho]

Yankee parade is fucking awesome! Really lightens my spirits after this awful national tragedy.

i'm blocks from broadway and dreading the search for lunch :/

and if you dislike shootings, it seems like another one just occurred in a Florida high-rise. 1 killed, 7 injured.

 

[APF]

http://www.frumforum.com/the-shootings-at-fort-hood

 

[methos75]

I am in the Military myself, but I am not really bothered by Obama's actions, after the whole Boston cop situation and his foot in mouth, he is probably justifiably hesitant about saying anything till the facts are known.