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Shooting at CO Planned Parenthood, shooter gave up, 3 dead

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Well, there it is...


http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...spect-made-comment-about-no-more-baby-n470706

The day after a gunman killed three people and shot nine others at a Colorado Planned Parenthood office, officials tell NBC News a motive remains unclear, but say the suspect talked about politics and abortion.

Robert Lewis Dear, a North Carolina native who was living in a trailer in Colorado, made statements to police Friday at the scene of the Colorado Springs clinic and in interviews that law enforcement sources described as rantings.

In one statement, made after the suspect was taken in for questioning, Dear said "no more baby parts" in reference to Planned Parenthood, according to two law enforcement sources with knowledge of the case.

But the sources stressed that Dear said many things to law enforcement and the extent to which the "baby parts" remark played into any decision to target the Planned Parenthood office was not yet clear. He also mentioned President Barack Obama in statements.

More at link above...

Sterling history this guy has. If he was is in legal possession of any firearms...

From the same story...

Sources said there would have been nothing apparent in Dear's background — including a felony conviction or previous mental health issue — that would have disqualified him from buying an AK-47 style, high-powered rifle used in the shootings.
 
Ugh. So those doctored videos have now indirectly caused three deaths. Wonderful. When will the media start calling out this bullshit?!
You would expect this to be brought up at the next debate...

But it's CNN and Wolf Blitzer. So virtually no chance they call them on it to their faces.
 
My heart goes out to the victims and their families. RIP ;_;

Seems like it. Left-wingers refused to call the Paris attacks "Islamic terrorists", I think the same courtesy should be applied here. A violent extremist is just that, he took an ideology and took it to the extreme.

edit: I mean, except if some people are trying to be ironic.

Er nobody had any issue calling those fuckers terrorists. Some, whether helpful or not, were hesitant to throw around "radical Islam" because they know that Islam has and continues to be unfairly maligned in the Western World. Like a lot of people won't even bother with the qualifier "radical" and just willfully only hear Islam when someone says "radical Islam". This is not an issue Christianity has to deal with in the West. Whenever someone does something dumb in the name of Christianity, only a few use that as an indictment of all of Christianity. When someone does some dumb in the name of Islam, way too many people are willing to use that as an indictment of the entire religion. It's the same with minority ethnic groups as well.

The man's going off about Obama and "No more baby parts" but the motive remains unclear?

I'm still reading through this story but seriously this can't be quoted enough. A privilege often afforded to majority groups but never minority groups. Going to be interesting, and probably frustrating, to see how this story develops. Given the asshole killed a cop, its at least unlikely he will escape severe punishment.
 
I mean we have a really toxic political atmosphere and it's really winding up unhinged people that decide the way to deal with their rage is to commit acts of domestic terrorism. And that's what this is.

If he's not charged with terrorism I won't be shocked but I'll be disappointed.

I mean, it's not bad to "wait for the whole story and final confirmation", it's just infuriating that people of color don't get the same privilege.

Never have, never will. We ain't shit. :(
 
Ugh. So those doctored videos have now indirectly caused three deaths. Wonderful. When will the media start calling out this bullshit?!

Bernie Sanders just called out Republicans and their anti-Planned Parenthood war drum (looking at you Carly Fiorina). But yeah, it seems nobody else has the balls.
 
Ugh. So those doctored videos have now indirectly caused three deaths. Wonderful. When will the media start calling out this bullshit?!

To give you an idea of the media's role in this: I had NO idea those videos were doctored. I saw it on the news when it came out. Thought it was repugnant to do that with aborted fetuses and that was that. Never heard it was fake on the news. Did they clarify it was fake and I just missed it?
 
Ugh. So those doctored videos have now indirectly caused three deaths. Wonderful. When will the media start calling out this bullshit?!

“There has been a direct correlation in the release of these videos and these threats,” National Abortion Federation president Vicki Saporta told the Daily News hours after a deadly attack killed two civilians and a police officer at a Planned Parenthood in Colorado Springs.

Threats have targeted the Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains network, which includes the Colorado Springs clinic.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...videos-led-attack-activists-article-1.2448839

Officials still can't figure out what could have motivated him though. Real head scratcher that.
 
Ugh. So those doctored videos have now indirectly caused three deaths. Wonderful. When will the media start calling out this bullshit?!

Bernie Sanders just called out Republicans and their anti-Planned Parenthood war drum (looking at you Carly Fiorina). But yeah, it seems nobody else has the balls.

To give you an idea of the media's role in this: I had NO idea those videos were doctored. I saw it on the news when it came out. Thought it was repugnant to do that with aborted fetuses and that was that. Never heard it was fake on the news. Did they clarify it was fake and I just missed it?

You guys need to interrogate your own media consumption habits. This Vox piece was all over the place. I heard it referenced on On The Media and George Stephanopoulos brought it up on his show while interviewing Fiorina.

There was a congressional hearing about Planned Parenthood in the wake of the videos. There was a bunch of coverage of that. Here's a nice roundup of the whole thing.
 
You guys need to interrogate your own media consumption habits. This Vox piece was all over the place. I heard it referenced on On The Media and George Stephanopoulos brought it up on his show while interviewing Fiorina.

There was a congressional hearing about Planned Parenthood in the wake of the videos. There was a bunch of coverage of that. Here's a nice roundup of the whole thing.

To be fair it wasn't a story I really dug into and followed. Heard something on CNN, saw a GAF thread and that's really it for me. If I delved deep into every outrage I see/hear/read on the news I'd never leave my home.
 
You guys need to interrogate your own media consumption habits. This Vox piece was all over the place. I heard it referenced on On The Media and George Stephanopoulos brought it up on his show while interviewing Fiorina.

There was a congressional hearing about Planned Parenthood in the wake of the videos. There was a bunch of coverage of that. Here's a nice roundup of the whole thing.

Ok so Vox and a short reference by George. The congressional hearing stoked fires, if anything.
 
Obama - politics - baby parts ranting (rhetoric) - planned parenthood - abortion - gun violence - shooting.

I've yet to have a starting point to connect the dots
 
Obama - politics - baby parts ranting (rhetoric) - planned parenthood - abortion - gun violence - shooting.

I've yet to have a starting point to connect the dots

If only he had a clear 8K 60fps video stating his name, mental status, intent, and who he blames. Unfortunately we don't so we'll never know his motive. Just chalk this up to mental health. Let's not politicise this guys.
 
To be fair it wasn't a story I really dug into and followed. Heard something on CNN, saw a GAF thread and that's really it for me. If I delved deep into every outrage I see/hear/read on the news I'd never leave my home.

So we're agreed: the clarification and investigation happened but you didn't catch it because of your chosen media consumption habits. If you're not going to read much news you should probably shift to slower news so you catch the end of a story instead of the beginning.

Ok so Vox and a short reference by George. The congressional hearing stoked fires, if anything.

That's one that immediately came to mind. I'm not going to produce an exhaustive list of coverage for you. http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1118390

If you wanna claim coverage has been insufficient, we can have that conversation but I'm not sympathetic to that claim. You definitely can't claim coverage didn't exist.
 
You guys need to interrogate your own media consumption habits. This Vox piece was all over the place. I heard it referenced on On The Media and George Stephanopoulos brought it up on his show while interviewing Fiorina.

There was a congressional hearing about Planned Parenthood in the wake of the videos. There was a bunch of coverage of that. Here's a nice roundup of the whole thing.

I understand what you're trying to say, but still feel the original stories on the videos got way more coverage. By the time the hearings rolled around, I'd say the damage had already been done, giving right wing crazies exactly what they wantes to hear. The GOP doubling down on them during the debates is unforgivable.
 
I understand what you're trying to say, but still feel the original stories on the videos got way more coverage. By the time the hearings rolled around, I'd say the damage had already been done, giving right wing crazies exactly what they wantes to hear. The GOP doubling down on them during the debates is unforgivable.
This is always the pattern- it's why lying is such an effective political strategy.
 
I understand what you're trying to say, but still feel the original stories on the videos got way more coverage. By the time the hearings rolled around, I'd say the damage had already been done, giving right wing crazies exactly what they wantes to hear. The GOP doubling down on them during the debates is unforgivable.

That's the disgusting part about all of this. When confronted with the truth about those tapes being fake, some Republican politicians only doubled down on the hateful rhetoric. People like Fiorina should definitely be held socially accountable for this.
 
If you wanna claim coverage has been insufficient, we can have that conversation but I'm not sympathetic to that claim. You definitely can't claim coverage didn't exist.

They exist, but the volume has been extremely low compared to the counterpunches. I mean, I'm sure there are a myriad of views on this subject in the media, but some views have more pervasive power. This is the lamentation.
 
This is always the pattern- it's why lying is such an effective political strategy.

Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. The spreading of this trifecta of shit absent real world facts and understanding can lead to some pretty disgusting human behavior and justification for said behavior.
 
They exist, but the volume has been extremely low compared to the counterpunches. I mean, I'm sure there are a myriad of views on this subject in the media, but some views have more pervasive power. This is the lamentation.

I agree absolutely. I'm saying that "I didn't see it" and "the media didn't cover it" are two very different claims. What we have isn't a failure of the media -- there are plenty of reliable outlets seeing stories to the end and publishing sober assessments -- but a failure of consumption habits. The mere existence of Fox News or conservative talk radio aren't a problem, the problem is that we have a large segment of people who aren't engaging a sufficiently broad media appetite.

If you watch O'Reilly every week for several years eventually you'll just start to trust him implicitly. If you watch O'Reilly and Maddow and John Stewart and listen to On The Media and read the Wall Street Journal then I think you'll naturally develop a more skeptical view on all of them and won't form as an emotional connection to any one outlet. This doesn't necessarily require people spend more time reading news, just that they spend that news-reading time "better", that they cycle around a bit.

I don't know how we fix this. The optimistic solution is "educate kids about media literacy at school", I suppose. But if people won't actively choose to have better media consumption habits, then what? We have to require outlets themselves to do a better job? That's a lovely sentiment in the abstract but I'm not sure how you could possibly go about implementing it.

Anyway, this is going off-topic and I'm going to drop this line. Happy to discuss over PM if anyone wants to carry on.
 
To be fair it wasn't a story I really dug into and followed. Heard something on CNN, saw a GAF thread and that's really it for me. If I delved deep into every outrage I see/hear/read on the news I'd never leave my home.

When people are lackadaisical towards women's rights then we're going to have an even harder time getting people to acknowledge they're actively attacked.

We now have sad, hard proof that the right wing is getting away with stoking the fire and then trying to look the other way later on because telling a lie first and then getting quiet later is working for them.
 
Are there any bible verses that refer to abortion or when personhood is obtained or anything like that? Many Christians are clearly pro-life, wondering if the bible supports that or not.

Fetuses having souls is a pretty recent development.

It used to be believed that one was en-souled when taking a first breath.

Weird how that changed.
 
I agree absolutely. I'm saying that "I didn't see it" and "the media didn't cover it" are two very different claims. What we have isn't a failure of the media -- there are plenty of reliable outlets seeing stories to the end and publishing sober assessments -- but a failure of consumption habits. The mere existence of Fox News or conservative talk radio aren't a problem, the problem is that we have a large segment of people who aren't engaging a sufficiently broad media appetite.

If you watch O'Reilly every week for several years eventually you'll just start to trust him implicitly. If you watch O'Reilly and Maddow and John Stewart and listen to On The Media and read the Wall Street Journal then I think you'll naturally develop a more skeptical view on all of them and won't form as an emotional connection to any one outlet. This doesn't necessarily require people spend more time reading news, just that they spend that news-reading time "better", that they cycle around a bit.

I don't know how we fix this. The optimistic solution is "educate kids about media literacy at school", I suppose. But if people won't actively choose to have better media consumption habits, then what? We have to require outlets themselves to do a better job? That's a lovely sentiment in the abstract but I'm not sure how you could possibly go about implementing it.

Anyway, this is going off-topic and I'm going to drop this line. Happy to discuss over PM if anyone wants to carry on.

Wait, are you serious? There's no way to fix the reporting of blatantly false information on news media? It's solely the fault of the viewers? Hang on here. Yes, viewers need to be better educated, sure -- but only because so many people believe that when they are watching the news, it will be fact-based, and that when incorrect things are reported, for whatever reason, they will be corrected. Why do they believe that? Because it still happens; newspapers correct errors, and so do the 24-hour news channels, but selectively. That's been twisted so far now into careful wording and selective use of "experts" that the average viewer of middling education may not always realize when they're being fed a line because those lines are blurred. Can we put some responsibility on them? Sure. But should we also hold the news media accountable for reporting, in this case, on blatantly faked videos as though they were true, and on reporting just what assholes like Fiorina said, as though that's some kind of fact and not propaganda? Yes, I think that should be actionable.

This "there's nothing we can do! That's just the world!" attitude is the single most frustrating thing to me, because it crops up so often.

"Class disparity just keeps getting worse, oh well! There's nothing we can do, though; some people are just always gonna be on bottom."
"Welp, guns are everywhere, nothing we can do now about that in America."
"Yeah, American education is in a terrible state, but there's just no fixing it."
"Sure, the news media sometimes spreads blatant lies, but how can we possibly make them not do that?"

All of these issues can be fixed. It's just that they require more than simple band-aid solutions that can be promoted by politicians only looking to get votes on the re-election cycle. It takes work (more than partisan squabbling), money (taxes), and long-term thinking (instead of quick fixes that make great soundbites).
 
Fetuses having souls is a pretty recent development.

It used to be believed that one was en-souled when taking a first breath.

Weird how that changed.

I'm still waiting on my Christian scholar friends to explain to me what happens when a fertilized egg splits and twins are formed. Does God magically imbue the second zygote with a soul? Or is one twin left soulless?
 
I'm still waiting on my Christian scholar friends to explain to me what happens when a fertilized egg splits and twins are formed. Does God magically imbue the second zygote with a soul? Or is one twin left soulless?

Where do you think the idea of the evil twin comes from?
 
Catching up on the news and he brought propane with him to blow up the place. Fuck this guy. They should charge him with domestic terrorism as well as murder.
 
I'm still waiting on my Christian scholar friends to explain to me what happens when a fertilized egg splits and twins are formed. Does God magically imbue the second zygote with a soul? Or is one twin left soulless?
There's arguably no "Christian" viewpoint on this since it's something that is essentially up to philosophy and science to decide. The concept of a human being without a soul doesn't really make sense though, a "soul" is what makes something alive, any moving, living creature is thought to have a soul. The ancient philosophy where the concept of a soul comes from even considered plants to have a soul since they grow and change, although a different kind from the one that animates an animal or human.

If there was already a soul in place at the moment of conception, a second soul could appear when the cell splits. Essentially, this is a type of reproduction similar to how some bacteria reproduce. The second soul would come from wherever the first one came from.

FWIW the Catholic Church sidesteps this whole issue and takes no position on when exactly the soul appears during the development of the embryo:

19. This declaration expressly leaves aside the question of the moment when the spiritual soul is infused. There is not a unanimous tradition on this point and authors are as yet in disagreement. For some it dates from the first instant; for others it could not at least precede nidation. It is not within the competence of science to decide between these views, because the existence of an immortal soul is not a question in its field. It is a philosophical problem from which our moral affirmation remains independent for two reasons: (1) supposing a belated animation, there is still nothing less than a human life, preparing for and calling for a soul in which the nature received from parents is completed, (2) on the other hand, it suffices that this presence of the soul be probable (and one can never prove the contrary) in order that the taking of life involve accepting the risk of killing a man, not only waiting for, but already in possession of his soul.
 
Just got off work, finding out it is pretty much confirmed now that the guy is a rightwing terrorist. Sickening not seeing more of a conversation about this. Even at my very liberal workplace it isn't even mentioned. And my conservative/christian friends ignore it/refuse to condone it. Sites like the drudgereport are trying to bury the shooting among other "news". I admit I lean conservative, but fuck these anti-globalwarming stories...
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Just got off work, finding out it is pretty much confirmed now that the guy is a rightwing terrorist. Sickening not seeing more of a conversation about this. Even at my very liberal workplace it isn't even mentioned. And my conservative/christian friends ignore it/refuse to condone it. Sites like the drudgereport are trying to bury the shooting among other "news". I admit I lean conservative, but fuck these anti-globalwarming stories...
They are partly responsible for these douchebags so I am not surprised they are thing to ignore or downplay it.
 
Fetuses having souls is a pretty recent development.

It used to be believed that one was en-souled when taking a first breath.

Weird how that changed.

Not really. Aristotle famously put it at 40 days for male embryos and 90 for girls, and his thought was absorbed and reworked by many in the Catholic church. It's fluctuated all over the place. Islam has always put it at 4 months after conception, I believe.
 
Google is your friend:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/18/w...belgium-whose-own-family-wanted-him-dead.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/us/15ksm.html?_r=0

Simply enter the name of a terrorist plus "new york times" or the news source of your choice.

That first story is just about the terrorist being a terrible person who became an even worse monster. There is no humanizing language compared to the stories written about most white American terrorists, lol.

I'm talking about someone writing an article about ISIS suicide bomber that starts off with: "X was viewed as a quiet, intelligent child who loved animals, blah, blah, blah." or "X's mental health seemed to degrade around blah time, possibly contributing to the violence that made him interested in jihad."
 
That first story is just about the terrorist being a terrible person who became an even worse monster. There is no humanizing language compared to the stories written about most white American terrorists, lol.

I'm talking about someone writing an article about ISIS suicide bomber that starts off with: "X was viewed as a quiet, intelligent child who loved animals, blah, blah, blah." or "X's mental health seemed to degrade around blah time, possibly contributing to the violence that made him interested in jihad."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/27/europe/paris-attacker-sister-interview/
 
Fuck all this loner bullshit, and of course that is exactly what all of the media is going to run with.

"Of course we can't say he was a white, domestic terrorist who was incited to violence by the horrible rhetoric spewed every day by the vast majority of conservatism!"
 
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