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Should companies like Rockstar be more responsible?

rjcc

Member
at this stage in their development, they should be more imaginative.

we have all this power, all this connectivity.

GTA renders an incredible copy of the real world.

the best storyline they can come up with for most of the missions, is ripoffs from various crime movies and ripped-from-the-headlines. no new stories, and nothing that (IMO) takes real advantage of my perspective within the world.

should they be responsible for painting a better picture? eh, they do what they want.

but I should be able to interact with the world they've created in more ways than just shooting things and getting lapdances.
 

maneil99

Member
And I'm very concerned for the amount of "it's just a game" feelings in this thread. Nothing is just a thing, nothing is not political.

Criticism and wanting something specific out of a game is not censorship.
Wanting something removed because it doesnt sit well with your political views is censorship.
 

Savitar

Member
Why stop at games?
Why stop at movies?
Why stop at TV?
Why stop at home?
Why stop at your neighborhood?
Why stop at...well you get the point.

In other words no.
 

Opto

Banned
I mean, if I had some kind of magical black marker that removed content from everyone's copies of the game and I used that, okay, sure, we could call that censorship.
 
D

Deleted member 20920

Unconfirmed Member
Wanting something removed because it doesnt sit well with your political views is censorship.

No one is saying things should be removed. It's a discussion about how GTA could do things differently and be more critical about what they consider to be good storytelling and writing.
The next game is not even made yet. Censorship would be an authority coming in to force Rockstar to remove parts of their game due to a set of agreed upon regulations.

This is criticism. This is a discussion.
 

memnoch87

Neo Member
No need to be responsible. Art is art but that doesn't mean that others should be vilified for criticising.

You do what you like and if I don't like it, I'm gonna write about it. If I really hate it, I'm going to attack it.
 

hiex_

Banned
I don't think they have any sort of obligation to put less offensive content in their games, they can do whatever they want. I agree that the characters and writing are pretty awful though. I can't sit through any GTA game these days.
 

nsignific

Banned
Someone makes blanket statement with no citation, I ask for citation and the onus is on me?

Sure, here you go: happy reading

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...2/yes-violent-video-games-do-cause-aggression

http://www.apa.org/research/action/protect.aspx

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/child-adolescent-psychiatry/violence-media-what-effects-behavior

http://ejop.psychopen.eu/article/viewFile/217/pdf

It's obviously not black and white, but drive by dismissive remarks about 'thoroughly disproven' without actual research doing so will be called out.


I'm thinking you haven't actually read any of those (or to be more fair, haven't really cared about the subject too much).

There's a clear distinction in the way these studies are undertaken and the results they provide; some look for any effect on "aggression", not disting1uishing between real-world aggression or one directed at the game world while playing. Other, the actually useful studies, search for links between video games and real world violence (with actual consequences). These have ALWAYS been conclusive and pretty black & white, as you put it.

The most recent one: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...t-video-games-and-youth-violence-9851613.html

I've been following this casually since the early 90's, and there has never been compelling evidence that videogames cause any real-world violence. Ever.
 
What they're doing is just fine. They make it quite clear what the game is about in the first place anyone so nobody should be all that shocked about what they find in these games anyway.
 

MCN

Banned
I don't think they have any sort of obligation to put less offensive content in their games, they can do whatever they want. I agree that the characters and writing are pretty awful though. I can't sit through any GTA game these days.

It's a game about hardened criminals. The characters aren't supposed to be nice people.
 

nsignific

Banned
Why stop at games?
Why stop at movies?
Why stop at TV?
Why stop at home?
Why stop at your neighborhood?
Why stop at...well you get the point.

In other words no.

You're not being serious. This way of thinking is very dangerous and unhealthy. It can lead to oppressive governments and thought police.

All for an imagined threat that's a complete non sequitur going from TV to real life for no apparent reason other than your assertion that it would happen.
 

rdrr gnr

Member
I get they still consider their games to be about "harmless caricatures" in a fantasy satirical world, but if you're gonna go through the trouble of having this Hollywood-esque production in your intro and the story's set up, then it begs the question of "why not bring the context you provide up to the same level?".
Satire can be very subtle, but it doesn't always have to be. And what makes for a good game mechanically or graphically can be independent of overall tone. I think the problem for a lot of people is that GTA does explicitly what is only implied by other games or contrived by the people who play them. It bothers people that GTA is in a sense of the quintessence of gaming. It might not be 15 years from now, but it serves as a bit of a reality check every few years between what seems like an endless amount of "criticism" that devolves into ill-concealed requests for content to be removed or altered as not to offend a certain demographic. It's a franchise that I'm not only glad exists, but thrives.
 
I agree with the OP. The initial promise of a satirical yet mature story is not realized in the game, because some scenes don't seem to work in a videogame form (
the torture scene
), and because the characters seem to escape any form of empathy. The humor is hit or miss, but the whole writing process is so detached from relevancy that it seems like GTA is now a parody of itself.
Especially Franklin is a wasted character that could have been so much more. Although a worse game mechanically, Gay Tony was so much better compared to GTAV in this regard.
 

doofy102

Member
1.They're responsible with the stuff that actually matters for gameplay. The quality and variety of the world, the possibilities of emergent gameplay, unique assets, unique physicality to each area, loads of different vehicles, etc. Rockstar's effort in that area is as meaningful as a good script.

2. And the disturbing stuff you do in the game is not meaningless. It has some artistic hooks in the psychological brain of the paranoid American, where "at any moment" a maniac could gun you down you or run you over or blow you up with no care of who you are and with no personal impression of you outside of your clothes and stuff they might hear you say on the side of the road, which they'll probably judge you with.

I wouldn't call GTA healthy art, but there is a substantial artistic reason why it's popular, and it's carefully treated. The Houser brothers speak with a great deal of intuition in their interviews and I don't doubt for a second they take lightly anything they do. It's not really a question of, "What can they do that's more mature or artistically responsible?" but, "What is it that makes GTA's crime and violence so absorbing?"
 

Basketball

Member
Sometimes I wonder if the folks that criticize Gta for this type of stuff have even played it and /or enjoyed any of the other of games in the series ?

I hope Rockstar crosses even more "lines" so that these people who don't like the games can hopefully understand that these games may not be for them

and that's alright.

There are plenty of games I don't like but I don't go around wanting them to be different or to suit my standards of what a game should be
 

Lethe82

Banned
And I'm very concerned for the amount of "it's just a game" feelings in this thread. Nothing is just a thing, nothing is not political.

Criticism and wanting something specific out of a game is not censorship.

But what do you even want.

Regardless, it's because it isn't 'just a game' that it's more ok. There is artistic merit to GTA, and it is hyperbolizing and stereotyping a lot of things in culture as means of satire. You may like or dislike its approach, and you may like or dislike content found within, but not everything in art is made to appeal to an individual, that's why there is such a wide range of it and people who dismiss something as 'not art' because they find it offensive or it fails some self imposed purity test. GTA isn't striving to show you the white washed mediums, it's about exposing the ludicrous extremes both on the actual ends of a spectrum and of our perceptions, and it does this through an inherently crass, violent, and gritty framing.

I can't help but recall that there were people up in arms over the Ballad of Gay Tony, as though characters using homophobic slurs meant that the message of the game was homophobia, as if racist content in American History X meant that the movie itself was racist. American History X is not racist, nor is BAGT homophobic, or GTA proper <insert here> because it lampoons the extremes through an extreme setting.

I'm thinking you haven't actually read any of those (or to be more fair, haven't really cared about the subject too much).

There's a clear distinction in the way these studies are undertaken and the results they provide; some look for any effect on "aggression", not disting1uishing between real-world aggression or one directed at the game world while playing. Other, the actually useful studies, search for links between video games and real world violence (with actual consequences). These have ALWAYS been conclusive and pretty black & white, as you put it.

The most recent one: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...t-video-games-and-youth-violence-9851613.html

I've been following this casually since the early 90's, and there has never been compelling evidence that videogames cause any real-world violence. Ever.

I found those studies to mostly be sub par but didn't really go into it in my post, thanks.
 

Dommo

Member
Not only is everything you've just written here a huge problem because it implies there is a universal moral standard, or that art has to conform to these standards - but holding artistic speech to that kind of standard is by definition censorship. So you're contradicting yourself.

Everything you're implying is subjective. Many could and will disagree with your definitions of "maturity, meaning, and nuance" - I could argue GTA has all of these things.

That really isn't what censorship is. Censorship is when something is banned because of its content or point of view. I never asked for anything to be banned. By all means let GTA run free and wild. But that isn't going to stop me from criticising it as much as I want and ask for something better. I'm not saying it should be censored. I'm just saying it's deeply flawed.

I don't know, can you? Within a gaming context, what would you like to see develop as a story? What kind of elements could you bring in to make gaming more meaningful and moral?

Well that's the great question isn't it? Where do we go from here to get gaming on a consistently higher quality where we're hitting more than 'fun' and instead penetrates and upsets the social discourse? That's a huge issue that spans across many, many different speedbumps in the industry. It spans across technical and fundamental challenges of the medium, the culture of the industry, journalism etc. I have a few ideas but they're too general and broad for this thread. But it probably starts with not making your game revolve around slaughtering thousands and thousands of people 95% of the time, but instead having the gameplay mechanics reflect or support the themes. But like I said that's easier said than done.

Regardless, it's really not my responsibility to be coming up with the content for the industry. I think it's enough for me to point out that there's a problem here. Now, I think few would argue that video games, on the whole, currently offer more meaningful discussion than films or novels. Something utilizing themes and direction to give the consumer an experience that allows them to grow as a person. There are two possibilities as to why this is the case:

1) Video games aren't capable of meaningful discussion because of the limitations of the medium itself ("There simply isn't a whole lot you can do with the medium. It ultimately has to come down to shooting bad guys. That's where games are most enjoyable! It doesn't matter though, because they're fun!"). I don't think this is the case and I think that'd be a pretty sad thing if it was.
2) Video games aren't hitting that meaningful discussion due to a variety of issues relating to the industry itself. I subscribe to this and it's why I'm so passionate but so pessimistic towards video games. I so desperately want video games to break free of their shackles and become, what I think, could be a more versatile and effective medium than films or novels.

But we're not there. We're nowhere near there and it's partly because we're all so keen on defending something that's vapid and immature, thinly veiled in a coat of self seriousness and 'cinematic'-ness.
 

rjcc

Member
Sometimes I wonder if the folks that criticize Gta for this type of stuff have even played it and /or enjoyed any of the other of games in the series ?

I hope Rockstar crosses even more "lines" so that these people who don't like the games can hopefully understand that these games may not be for them

and that's alright.

There are plenty of games I don't like but I don't go around wanting them to be different or to suit my standards of what a game should be


they don't really cross lines. nothing they do in these games hasn't been in a dozen movies. it's not about who the game is or isn't for, necessarily, but it could be about presenting a better game that takes advantage of what it is -- a game.
 

Lethe82

Banned
they don't really cross lines. nothing they do in these games hasn't been in a dozen movies. it's not about who the game is or isn't for, necessarily, but it could be about presenting a better game that takes advantage of what it is -- a game.

Don't you remember the controversy when they dared make a black man a lead playable character in the biggest franchise in gaming? Or the Homophobia around The Ballad of Gay Tony? Nothing that hasn't been done in film? Sure, but so what? Different mediums, different standards.
 

jorma

is now taking requests
I'd say that GTA (both 4 and 5) is one of the best examples of a game that is "upsetting social discourse" while still keeping the potential of "mindless fun". So yay for GTA, i guess?
Admittedly i'm not really sure what you really mean with upsetting social discourse so i could be wrong, obviously.

And i find it unsettling that people are going "i'd like GTA to change into a game where you don't shoot people" instead of leaving GTA out of their argument entirely and just go "i'd like a game that is doing this and that instead of just shooting people"

I actually do think that's advocating censorship with a thinly veiled coat of "I'm just criticising", obviously GTA isn't going to change unless they are forced to change, since they sell a gazillion copies to people who like GTA just the way it is.
 

rjcc

Member
Don't you remember the controversy when they dared make a black man a lead playable character in the biggest franchise in gaming? Or the Homophobia around The Ballad of Gay Tony? Nothing that hasn't been done in film? Sure, but so what? Different mediums, different standards.

those controversies were tiny. TBoGT was not a massive deal, and maybe San Andreas was a big deal to people where you live, but not to me. and again, those games simply cribbed story, structure, characters and situations from movies. no new ground covered.
 

Lethe82

Banned
There were more than a few people saying that they would skip that GTA, or hypothesizing that it would bomb. It was quite the controversy at the time.

And as to your point: It doesn't mean that they weren't crossing lines for the medium, that can't just be hand waved away because another medium that has existed for much longer did something first. Even when they did, context matters, which is why there were still controversies no matter how big or small they were. Are we to say 'oh well doesn't count' for nearly every 'lines crossed' by film because a book probably did it first hundreds of years ago? of course not, because those lines were still a first within the depiction of films and the medium carried different weight and communicated different information than another medium like books did even in 'crossing the same line'.
 
edit; I am also someone who thinks that it is a rightful 18+ game and youngins should not be anywhere near it. Off topic, I saw in my FB feed an acquaintances' son (must be about 11-12) with an COD hoody. Like wtf?

To be fair I was playing the original GTA when it released when I was 9. I got GTA III for my 13th birthday. My parents knew that I was smart enough to tell the difference between a game and real life, and that the behaviour I presented in a digital world didn't apply and weren't acceptable in the real world.

There's nothing wrong with kids playing mature games, as long as they're well raised.

When they manage to make a fun sanbox game with the same caliber writing as the gangster movies they're inspired by then I'll quit criticizing them.

But they keep writing with their tongues sitting comfortably in their cheeks because the gaming press keeps calling them Oscar worthy writers.

I disagree that games need to have the same level of writing as a film, they're too different mediums. Films need better writing since for the most part, dialogue and story is what keeps the audience engaged for the whole show. Action scenes and jokes help, but a film without good dialogue and a poor story generally doesn't do too well.

Games on the other hand are interactive. There's so much more that they can do to keeo the audience engaged that their writing doesn't need to be as good. Not to mention games are generally at least 5 times longer than a film and contain much much more dialogue. It's near impossible to keep up a Godfather level of story and character interaction for that length of time.
 
As games about shooting people goes, GTA is far more responsible than most, because of its satirical elements. It's totally conscious that its about bad people doing bad things in a fucked up, ugly, shallow, violent and materialistic society. I don't understand why people don't get this.
 
"it's not art because I don't like it"

I really hope people don't take this kind of bullshit seriously.

Given you're the second person to make this strawman - I DO like GTA games, they are NOT art - I can only assume that to you Art = "things I like"?

Because there's your problem.

These are considered examples of fine art:

So yeah, I'm fine with calling GTA art.

Yes, do you understand the categorisation of "Fine Art"?
It doesn't mean "art that is fine with me".



Attention people that think GTA is art: you can't have it both ways.
You don't get to declare GTA a work of art while simultaneously declaring it uncriticisable for its immature and explicitly commercial tone because "its just a game".

Its either a work of art and as such entirely fair game for having a critical eye turned upon it - a critical eye that doesn't have to work very hard to absolutely rip it to shreds - or its just dumb pop-culture entertainment, in which case stop fucking calling it art.
 

Lethe82

Banned
I don't even like GTA games (well 4 was ok I suppose, haven't played 5 yet) that doesn't mean that I don't I recognize that it has artistic merit. What you think of 'video game dumb pop culture entertainment' can still be art to another person. It only sounds pretentious because art is stupidly pretentious to begin with. Still, trying to define 'what art is' and 'high art versus low art' caused a lot of problems back in the day there's no need to revisit it.
 

Red

Member
I understand where OP is coming from. I agree it would be nice. But Rockstar has no obligation to push social morality, and if they did it is unlikely their products would be as successful as they are today. Playing as morally decrepit sociopaths allows for the amount of freedom that GTA demands, and provides that free-wheeling, no-holds-barred chaos a context in violent fantasy.

The games are rated M, but as you say they are clearly the virtual arena of adolescent daydreams. That's not a criticism limited solely to Rockstar. The reality is a commercial company owes nothing to morality or social good, and everything to profits. They must make a game that will sell buttloads, especially when the cost of production is so high. The price of failure is so high it cannot be risked. So the audience gets what it wants (usually what it's got before), whether or not what it wants contributes to artistic progress or improvement of the medium.

I don't think you can point out any one example and blame that for the lack of social awareness in games. Responsibility is dispersed through the whole shebang, and any one teenage male fantasy can be fine on its own. It becomes a problem when that is almost all you get from mainstream releases.

MrNyarlathotep:
You're right, but remember everyone online has a voice whether or not he knows or even wants to know what he's talking about. Your disagreement is coal to the engine, and digs them more entrenched.
 
They're still small fish in Florida as a whole. CJ tours around an entire state and controls every area in the game. CJ himself makes Tommy look smalltime when it comes to overall cash and what he accomplishes.

CJ controls more because there's more to control in San Andreas. SA is simply a significantly bigger game than VC, so there's more to it. But Tommy still ends up being the kingpin at the end of the game just like CJ is. They're treated exactly the same in terms of their end game accomplishments.

Going back to the point of "responsibility", I find them too lazy with their character writing. They script their game based on these crude characters for the sake of scripting a fun game, but can they not achieve the same result with better written/less offensive characters and a story that compliments them better? Or just give the player the freedom to perform all these tasks with a story that follows player action (but that's tinfoil talk apparently)

The more I read you posts the more I think that your issue isn't with bad writing (because there really aren't many games that have better writing than GTA), it's that you seemingly don't like that they write stories about character that really don't have any redeeming qualities. They're just terrible people living in an already terrible society. In the OP you asked why are you playing as a character that would kidnap someone and rob a bank, and it's because the game clearly establishes that Trevor is the type of person that would do that. The game establishes that from the very moment that show you him. He's a different breed of GTA character in that he basically doesn't give a shit about anything and he does pretty much every horrible crime that you can think of. He tortures, rapes, kills, kidnaps etc. But again, the game establishes that he's the type of character that would do that. It's not out of character nor does any of it come as a surprise. Because that's Trevor. If it makes you uncomfortable to play as him or question why he was even created, then they probably accomplished their job of showing just how horrible he is.
 

Bold One

Member
While OP makes some good points, the main protagonists seem to have no redeeming qualities and in most other games they would be the bad guys.

I think its probably for the best that game content was not subject to 'feelings'
 

Footos22

Member
So you basically wanna rip all the fun out of video games that are rated appropriately.

I've been playing violent video games since forever. Way way more then what you'd consider an average gamer play on a day to day basis. I've never committed a crime, started a fight or felt like ive wanted to kill someone.

There was that time i threw a skipping rope in some kids bike spokes and he flew over his handlebars and smashed his front teeth on the road. But that was an accident, honest.
 
I think they have to stop selling those mature games to teenagers.
You're not 18? No GTA for you.
If they're so brave and satirical as they claim to be, why Rockstar don't say to teens to f*** of and to go back playing with their nerf guns?

Also, about parents who buy violent games to kids. If you buy a beer and give it to a teenager, you go to jail. It should be the same.

This is why people who are obsessed with storytelling are bad for gaming.
This.
 

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
Most comprehensive and long term study yet concludes:

The first long-term study has been completed on the link between the consumption of violent media and real-life violent acts, and has found... there is none. In fact, the only possible trend that cropped up over the last century was that an increased consumption of violent video games correlated to a decrease in youth violence.

:

You realize that both studies that you pointed to basically break down as such:

1) Games have gotten more violent and popular over time
2) Crime has gone down over the same period.
3) Therefore there isn't a link.

Neither of these studies looks at individual behavior but the larger effect of societal trends.

Then you link to a Wikipedia article that acuses all studies that *don't* agree with your pre-disposed opinion are guilty of effectively group-think without any actual proof about it, but a nice fiat statement.

So, here is a Wikipedia link for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

There are multiple studies that show that media consumption alters someone's attitude towards issues and that violent games in particular have been positively linked in multiple studies to aggression.

There hasn't ever been a link provided that shows you are likely to go on a mass shooting as a result (nor do I think that link exists), but to glibly come into a thread and make a blanket statement that "violent games don't cause problems" and then link to two studies that only analyzed meta-analysis and then make cart blache statements that all other studies are group think and therefore to be ignored is intellectually dishonest at best.

I don't know if you read those papers much to be honest...

As someone who has actually followed the research, right back at you. ;)

Also, this sort of behavior is totally uncalled for.
 

Kosma

Banned
It is a bit childish to keep shooting cops and driving over bystanders, I find no particular joy in those things like I did when I was 14 and GTA1 came out.
 
It is a bit childish to keep shooting cops and driving over bystanders, I find no particular joy in those things like I did when I was 14 and GTA1 came out.

then it falls on you to no longer purchase the series.

why spend money on something you don't find fun?

you can make a case to try to persuade a producer to evolve their formula, but when they choose to ignore the new you doesn't mean they find their content is necessarily bad.
 

Pimpwerx

Member
No. I don't care for ratings. I think they're dumb when kids get into R movies and parents buy their kids M games. The ratings are meaningless. Save your child from playing GTA, only to have him play it at s friend's house. Ratings were adopted to avoid litigation, not because it's something that was actually needed. Most parents don't know shit about the games they're buying anyway.

I'm also not convinced there's a connection between violent games and aggression. Nno more than there is between sports and aggression. I think if you studied anyone after engaging in some form of competition, you'd find heightened levels of aggression. This could be after playing a tough chess match, aggression in these instances just comes from the adrenaline rush of the competition. Once that surge is over, I'd like to believe gamers and athletes alike return to normal levels. But I didn't read a study, and I don't think I'll ever do so. Anecdotal evidence is good enough for me. PEACE.

EDIT: Also, GTA has always been a morally bankrupt franchise from its inception. I didn't play the first few, top-down GTA's until I was in college, so somewhere between 17 and 21. It's not an age thing. The game mechanics work for all ages, and many of us were on the verge of being grown ass men when we first discovered the franchise. So passing it off as some childish fantasy is disingenuous. You didn't get too old for the series, you simply got tired of it. Many of us were past the age of adolescence when we first began engaging in bad fantasy behavior. Just because it was 2D doesn't make it more moral.
 

BiGBoSSMk23

A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
I disagree that games need to have the same level of writing as a film, they're too different mediums. Films need better writing since for the most part, dialogue and story is what keeps the audience engaged for the whole show. Action scenes and jokes help, but a film without good dialogue and a poor story generally doesn't do too well.

Games on the other hand are interactive. There's so much more that they can do to keeo the audience engaged that their writing doesn't need to be as good. Not to mention games are generally at least 5 times longer than a film and contain much much more dialogue. It's near impossible to keep up a Godfather level of story and character interaction for that length of time.

The more I read you posts the more I think that your issue isn't with bad writing (because there really aren't many games that have better writing than GTA), it's that you seemingly don't like that they write stories about character that really don't have any redeeming qualities. They're just terrible people living in an already terrible society. In the OP you asked why are you playing as a character that would kidnap someone and rob a bank, and it's because the game clearly establishes that Trevor is the type of person that would do that. The game establishes that from the very moment that show you him. He's a different breed of GTA character in that he basically doesn't give a shit about anything and he does pretty much every horrible crime that you can think of. He tortures, rapes, kills, kidnaps etc. But again, the game establishes that he's the type of character that would do that. It's not out of character nor does any of it come as a surprise. Because that's Trevor. If it makes you uncomfortable to play as him or question why he was even created, then they probably accomplished their job of showing just how horrible he is.

I'm glad I can address both these post at once since it demonstrates why the writing in GTAV comes off as insipid and disparate.

Movies are written to carefully follow a two hour story, and they're scripted to characterize and build a tangible world with a tone that these characters inhabit. In mob/gangster flicks the characters will usually be the personified form of some basic human flaw, a study into what a person behaves like and how they affect their surroundings with whatever vice consumes them, and that is inherently interesting by itself depending on your tolerance (again, the morality side of the GTA debate is separate from the quality writing debate). In GTA, the writing is sprawled out over hours and hours of both scripted and player controlled sequences, but that's not solely why it falls apart. The problem is that these characters are so loosely written and defined that their violent nature just comes off obnoxiously implausible, which some people defer to call "satire", but it's really just subpar characterization. It would be fine if the game was aimed and written to appeal to fully unsympathetic sociopaths, but that's insulting your audience (I'm assuming we're all civil people [civil people able to suspend our morals for the sake of fantasy and art]).

So the other question is; is that the only facilitating mode of writing for a game like GTA that derives its fun from the mayhem? The subpar characters, made explicitly unpalatable to thematically justify the havoc the game's core elements are built to handle? That's when I say, no. It's shouldn't be necessary (or even critically admissible) to have a game in which its cynical social commentary during gameplay becomes pervasive for their character writing as well. And this is the reason why ludonarrative dissonance is not necessarily a knock in a GTA game. There's simply too much freedom to be an asshole (regardless of how the games systemic response systems challenge or "reprimand" the player) to craft characters and storyline that fall in line with those gameplay possibilities.

Now, this is the part where people cite extreme examples to demonstrate why ludonarrative dissonance would be a poor choice. "Oh you can't go murdering people and then have a warm family moment in cutscene ten seconds later". Truth be told, you very well could. Many of those film characters had family values in spite of the atrocities they committed to suit their ends. It's part of the juxtaposition that made them palatable within the films' overall theme and purpose. That's not the only option, either, though. You don't have to go from cold murder to warm family nurturing. It's very possible to write characters with more nuanced contradictions and motives that don't fall apart the second you gain control of them again. Walter White, Nico Bellic, Michael Corleone (to a different extent). These are characters aware that what they were doing was wrong but they were in too deep (for various reasons) to reform and start anew, and there are plausible (if a bit trope-y) stories to be told within those constraints.

Either way, It's not a matter of criticizing the morality factor in GTAV, it's a matter of criticizing the quality of writing that went into that game. And understanding that any opposing opinions on this matter fall under the realm of personal, critical taste, not personal moral compass.

I believe that characters and story in certain videogames don't need to be strictly beholden to the game mechanics they reside within to avoid dissonance. Not to the extent Rockstar wrote Trevor, and to a lesser extent, Michael and Franklin.
 

Mihos

Gold Member
I don't think it is any worse than any Tarintino movie. The only thing I would say is that games need to be identified more towards target audiences, so that parents and people in general don't think 'video game == kid'

It has been accepted in other mediums, I don't know what is taking so long with video games.
 
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