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Should I stick with LCD or go Plasma?

McHuj said:
Looking for some input here.

I'm likely to pickup a TV soon, maybe even this weekend.

Down to Sony LCD 55ex500 or Panasonic Plasma 50G20. Has anyone picked up either and had any gaming experience with it?

If it weren't for the rising black level issues with the Panasonic, I'd get the G20. Hell, I don't even know if I'll notice if the black levels rise.
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Even with the rising black levels of the Panasonic Plasmas, they still make one of the best pictures out on the market. In fact, many will never notice the black levels rise. You may be among that group.

As for that Sony TV, lots of reviews of Sony's LCD TVs have said that blacks look more blue than anything else. Contrast ratio and accurate colour display being among the two most important features, if not the most important features, for a television, I would stay away.

If you are looking for another high quality TV, I would look towards the LG LE850. It has been getting stellar reviews.

Samsung makes really great LCD/LED panels as well (I really like their panels because the colours can really POP). Of course, you can always try and track down a Pinoeer Elite Kuro :D --- still the best TV on the market to date.
 
elohel said:
wait so the s1 is guaranteed to have shittier quality over time?

thats what i have : (
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Yes, unfortunately. It isn't going to make or break your image, frankly, but it will happen.

If I'm not mistaken, the folks on the AVS forum found a way to reset the internal clock on the TV so that it doesn't reach the point that the panel starts doing the dirty deed. There is also a thread on Ars Technica if I'm not mistaken. Totally un-Panasonic approved, but these guys aren't a bunch of yahoos who don't know what they are talking about. This won't necessarily get your blacks back to where they were if it had already happened, but apparently it can prevent the rising levels if you catch it in time. I'm sure a google search of the AVS forums can drag up that fix for you. It involves changing a bunch of values in the registry, if I'm not mistaken.
 
140.85 said:
Are G10's really guaranteed to shift in black levels? I've had mine for a while and haven't noticed anything.
Click to expand...

It's pretty much been determined the levels rise 3X.

But did you properly calibrate your set? If you have it running in torch mode, you'll probably never notice. Pioneer did voltage adjustments based on phosphor usage. Panasonic made arbitrary calculations based on how many hours running running on torch mode would be needed. So at each hour milestone, the voltage kicks up. Regardless of how hard you were driving the set and whether or not it needs it.

Problem for the majority of the AVS guys, they calibrate their sets. They're driving their panels at a fraction of what a set on torch would be doing. So their sets have absolutely no need for voltage increases at the arbitrary hour milestones Panasonic has chosen. Couple that with these sets being calibrated to maximize black levels (and having lower visible black levels than torch mode), and major jumps become jarringly visible.
 
liquidlogan said:
Even with the rising black levels of the Panasonic Plasmas, they still make one of the best pictures out on the market. In fact, many will never notice the black levels rise. You may be among that group.

As for that Sony TV, lots of reviews of Sony's LCD TVs have said that blacks look more blue than anything else. Contrast ratio and accurate colour display being among the two most important features, if not the most important features, for a television, I would stay away.

If you are looking for another high quality TV, I would look towards the LG LE850. It has been getting stellar reviews.

Samsung makes really great LCD/LED panels as well (I really like their panels because the colours can really POP). Of course, you can always try and track down a Pinoeer Elite Kuro :D --- still the best TV on the market to date.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately. the LG's out of my price range.

Basically, the 50G20 seems like the best bang for the buck. I really need a TV with good anti-reflective coating. LG's and Samsungs AR coating isn't as good as the G20 nor like the matte 55EX500.

Costco makes the Sony (EX501 their model) really tempting because it comes with a 3 year warranty.
 
elohel said:
im still confused what exactly happens?
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Not sure how accurate this is going to be but here it goes. :lol:

After X amount of hours, Panasonic calculated that the pixels in their TV needed a higher voltage level for the pixels to fire to compensate for the degredation of the set that comes naturally through usage--the idea being that if you don't up the voltage, the TV will not perform to Panasonic's specifications. The problem is that those calcuations have turned out to be overly aggressive, as a previous poster said, this is especially the case for those who calibrate their TVs to optomize in order to reduce the electrical output and improve black levels. The problem is that the bump in voltage came too early for those users, creating black levels that are, in comparison with an optomized, calibrated setup, approxiamtely 3x higher. Thus, one of the main selling features of the Panasonic TV becomes almost negated, bringing the black levels to low-end LG plasmas, or even some LCDs.
 
If that's the case, then in theory if the set ages enough, wouldn't things eventually normalize? Since it sounds like the voltage increases are essentially trying to compensate for phosphor aging.
 
MoxManiac said:
If that's the case, then in theory if the set ages enough, wouldn't things eventually normalize? Since it sounds like the voltage increases are essentially trying to compensate for phosphor aging.
Click to expand...

The theory sounds logical and that is what has been circulating on the AVS forums, but other than that, I have no idea. A lot of good information in that thread, but also a lot of meaningless dust gets kicked up that makes it hard to sort out.
 
1-D_FTW said:
It's pretty much been determined the levels rise 3X.

But did you properly calibrate your set? If you have it running in torch mode, you'll probably never notice. Pioneer did voltage adjustments based on phosphor usage. Panasonic made arbitrary calculations based on how many hours running running on torch mode would be needed. So at each hour milestone, the voltage kicks up. Regardless of how hard you were driving the set and whether or not it needs it.

Problem for the majority of the AVS guys, they calibrate their sets. They're driving their panels at a fraction of what a set on torch would be doing. So their sets have absolutely no need for voltage increases at the arbitrary hour milestones Panasonic has chosen. Couple that with these sets being calibrated to maximize black levels (and having lower visible black levels than torch mode), and major jumps become jarringly visible.
Click to expand...

I never calibrated my set. Never felt the need. I did break it in for 100 or so hours - sometimes in torch mode. All I know is that in a dimly lit room blacks that are meant to be pure black still look really deep and inky to me. Than again, technically mine is a G15...

I've used it heavily since September.
 
Zapages said:
Buy this:

A Sharp LC40LE700UN LED 120Hz 1080p LCD HDTV for 800 dollars on dell. I ordered one last night. :)

So no need to fear of image retentions and still get a great picture that doesn't go bad from what I've read. :)

Also it has a very low input lag from what I've read on AVS. :)
Click to expand...

Doesn't look like I bad set from the specs (except the bullshot contrast ration Mega Contrast 2mil:1 on an LCD :lol)
 
liquidlogan said:
Doesn't look like I bad set from the specs (except the bullshot contrast ration Mega Contrast 2mil:1 on an LCD :lol)
Click to expand...

Its an LED-LCD, a backlit LED better than those Samsung Edge Lit LEDs... So its to be expected to be this huge. >_>
 
I'm a victim of the rising Panasonic blacks and I fucking hate it. Paid $2k for the TV back in late 2008 and the blacks now look worse than anything you'd see on any TV at Walmart. I'd take this one down and put up another (non-Panasonic) TV if it weren't prohibitively expensive at present to do so.
 
BigNastyCurve said:
I'm a victim of the rising Panasonic blacks and I fucking hate it. Paid $2k for the TV back in late 2008 and the blacks now look worse than anything you'd see on any TV at Walmart. I'd take this one down and put up another (non-Panasonic) TV if it weren't prohibitively expensive at present to do so.
Click to expand...

That sucks man. Is there anything Panasonic going to do about this or not? They should give you guys a huge discount on their next tvs or something in return for this problem.
 
I find myself in the same boat. Got a Panasonic G15 with a build date of November 2009 and it's nowhere near the inky black I had when I first got it.

I check the AVS forum thread talking about doubling-black levels every day but I feel like I'm looking for false hope. The black levels are pretty bad and it's pretty noticeable.

Some days it goes back to what it used to look like and other days it makes a huge jump in black level and my frustration hits a new high.

It's still bar none the one of the best gaming displays IMO. Has one of the lowest input lag times in the market and handles motion better than 90% of the sets out there.

But the black level is going to drive me insane.
 
Bought this today

http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product...spx?path=e6ac11103079be96aabf77b592318287en02

10140847.jpg


Frame is absolutely gorgeous
 
BigNastyCurve said:
I'm a victim of the rising Panasonic blacks and I fucking hate it. Paid $2k for the TV back in late 2008 and the blacks now look worse than anything you'd see on any TV at Walmart. I'd take this one down and put up another (non-Panasonic) TV if it weren't prohibitively expensive at present to do so.
Click to expand...
Yea I have a 2008 model Panasonic too. The black levels on it horrify me. I sit close to the tv so I also notice all the plasma picture noise. The picture noise would've been ok to deal with if the black levels were good but they aren't. It's pathetic that I'm having to watch my plasma with the lights on to lessen the effects of the shit black levels. To add further insult to injury the 2008 model Panasonics pushed the reds a little too much so we don't even have the benefit of color accuracy. Fuck plasma fanboys that made me buy it. I'm not going to be able to afford to replace it for another two years at least.
 
jett said:
Is there no alternative to Panasonic plasmas(other than Kuros)?
Click to expand...

The Sharp line is really good from what I've read online. E77u and le700un series are great.

LC40LE700UN, LC46LE700UN, LC52LE700UN

the LC40Le700UN is 800 dollars on Dell.com

A quote from AVS forums about E77u series:
Quoting a review from Newegg on the E77U.
"Great picture. In game mode at least, UNDETECTABLE game lag. This was my number one priority, and I barely detect any lag whatsoever in game mode. And it still looks brilliant. In guitar hero: world tour calibration test, got 8-10ms on average".
Click to expand...

le700un

The LG47lh90 has an averagae of 45 ms input lag while the Sharp has around 25 ms. The LH90 probably has some more fancy features but I'm not specifically sure what.
Click to expand...
 
dralla said:
nope. It's Pioneer or Panasonic at this point.
Click to expand...

I don't know about that. I'd wait for the new Samsung plasma models to be released and reviewed. They may have issues, but look at the main competition. If I had to choose between them right now, I'd probably end up choosing Samsung if I had to.
 
1-D_FTW said:
I don't know about that. I'd wait for the new Samsung plasma models to be released and reviewed. They may have issues, but look at the main competition. If I had to choose between them right now, I'd probably end up choosing Samsung if I had to.
Click to expand...
I would too. I don't mind if Samsung still has IR issues as long as their black levels don't take a shit all over my eyeballs. At this point though it's best to wait to see if Panasonic's 2011 displays using Kuro technology has fixed this black level shit. Although the thought of me giving Panasonic more money disgusts me so it'll have to be just as good or better than Pioneer's Kuros for me to buy.
 
1-D_FTW said:
I don't know about that. I'd wait for the new Samsung plasma models to be released and reviewed. They may have issues, but look at the main competition. If I had to choose between them right now, I'd probably end up choosing Samsung if I had to.
Click to expand...

Samsung has the worst input lag amongst all the major brands. :(

Le700un has 2 million to 1 dynamic constrast
 
Hmmm. I'm thinking of led but the 3d tvs are under $1000 more. If 3d lasts maybe it's just worth it to save the extra $800 or so? Hmmm
 
Proc said:
Hmmm. I'm thinking of led but the 3d tvs are under $1000 more. If 3d lasts maybe it's just worth it to save the extra $800 or so? Hmmm
Click to expand...

I am waiting for 3D tvs that don't require classes and don't require an arm and a leg to buy. Plus to me, 3D isn't too special.

Also the Sharp has more inputs and is backlit LED HDTV with 120 hz LCD HDTV.
 
I bought a 50" G20 this week but it arrived with a cracked screen! Fucking nightmare! Amazon UK were being useless about sending me a replacement so I have got a refund instead. Fuck them, their customer service was disgraceful. I'll get one from a Panasonic shop instead.

I have been back and forth between getting an LCD or a plasma, but the shifty, cloudy motion especially on Large screen LCDs really put me off. And then there is the input lag, which hits around 60ms on some these days! :/
 
goes with LE700UN, I just read to show that its awesome for gaming for PS3.

Now, as far as the LE700UN... My initial reaction is WOW!! The picture is awesome, with real black blacks, tonnes of contrast and amazingly smooth pciture from corner to corner! Features, functionality, levels of adjustment andcustomizability are second to none,not to mention not evenavailable to this degree on any other tv at this price point. I had a difficult time making my final decision on which tv to get. It was a toss up between the 700UN and Panasonic Viera G1 or V Series. The V series put itself out of the running because one, they're hard to find now as stock is low, and the second is price. The G1 is great, but even though its on the higher end of the Viera line up, it still didn't measure up to the 700UN as far as inputs, features, and levels of adjustment. Image wise, the 700UN and G1 were very close with barely any disearnable difference. In the end, I went for the 700UN and am loving it!

I have barely had time to enjoyedthe tvyet, so once I've spend a little more time with it Tamabest04, I'll share more of my impressions on it. But so far, its truly amazing! You have to seriously consider this one as your next tv!!

Ok, I'm off to play some games! Thanks for all you suggestions and input. I hope this thread ends up helping someone out who was having the same problem. Judging from the forums and google, there are a bunch of people out there struggling with this.
Click to expand...

Source: http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=27211090
 
Just doing some shopping around...the plasmas are one of hell of a deal, when comparing them to led prices.

I'm thinking of saving money and going with a 1080p Panasonic plasma tv. The colours are so nice on the plasmas.
 
Just to add, I've had a 50" G10 for awhile - almost a year - and have had absolutely no problems with black levels, or anything else for that matter.

EDIT: Sorry, I meant G10, not G20.
 
Plasma prices are a crazy bargain when dealing with 50" and below. The Panasonics of 2010 are supposed to offer a more gradual mll brightening. The Samsungs seem to have reduced the buzzing issues in their 2010 models. The LG's have really pretty frames and offer pretty good pictures without widespread reported issues.

The Mitsubishi DLP's offer the bargains for 60" and above. Even with DLP's shortcomings, a 73" 1080p television with minimal input lag, fantastic PQ, and 3D-ready for $1500 is a win. Only Mitsubishi's left in the game, but they're still producing great sets.

LCD's and LED-lit LCD's offer no real advantages other than flame torch brightness which catches eyes in big-box stores, and edge lit thinness. I'm not sure how this technology leads sales when it doesn't offer a price or picture quality advantage.
 
^yeah, the prices on the plasmas are driving me to their side.

A beautiful new 50" 1080p plasma from panosonic is roughly $1500, which is a great price when comparing it to the new LED TVs.

Reading up on the burn in problem, it seems like the new generations have "wobbling pixels" that help prevent it.

I do a lot of gaming (obviously), so I'd be careful during the first few months. A small inconvenience when you take into account how much money I'd be saving.
 
sdornan said:
Just to add, I've had a 50" G10 for awhile - almost a year - and have had absolutely no problems with black levels, or anything else for that matter.

EDIT: Sorry, I meant G10, not G20.
Click to expand...

I can believe this.

The only condition where the rising black levels are obvious are:

1) Using bias lighting behind the set
2) Using the HDTV in complete darkness

Otherwise to be honest, I probably would have never noticed it either.
 
Quick random question.

VGA signals are all or nothing right?

I have my 360 connected via VGA to my HDTV - the fitting on the back is kind of cramped. Almost as if it's not 'connecting' all the way. The signal -seems- fine, but the TV is new so I don't know what's fine or not.

But - if it's an all or nothing signal, then - obviously it's all since I am getting a picture that looks good. Although I don't know what 'good' is (could be better or something).
 
CrashPrime said:
The Panasonics of 2010 are supposed to offer a more gradual mll brightening.
Click to expand...
They're not fixing it? I wanted to buy a new TV next year. WTF am I supposed to buy?
 
Plasma, ive had a 50" Kuro for a little over 2 years and couldn't be happier. Ive been using it heavily for gaming & movies.

Black levels are top notch even when the lights are out.
 
I don't get it. My Panasonic G15 is so damn unpredictable these days.

Just got off a marathon session on my Wii playing Smash Bros and the black levels were back to being amazing again.

Last night, I was playing Heavy Rain on my PS3 and the second I get off the game and my tv goes back to the black input screen - BAM! It's not black but light black of some sort.

I give up.
 
A lot of the G10 stuff is down to sheer paranoia I reckon - that and the black bezel: I was stessing because the blacks didn't match the bezel (which is pretty much impossible). That being said, there's clearly an issue, but blacks are heavily relative when being measured by just the human eye. When I started reading up on the issue I was getting paranoid as shit. Dragging my LCD from the spare room, making sure everything was pitch black, and testing them. All while my missus was waiting in the bedroom for me to go and have sex with her - but shit just didn't matter to me, all I cared about was those black levels.:lol

But then my bro-in-law got the G15 recently and my blacks matched his brand new set - so mine hasn't been affected so far. That being said, my set was bought in Australia, and those are apparently made in a different country from the sets in America, so I reckon I'll be fine. I got a three year warranty free with the set, so if they pull this shit on me I'll just try and swap it out I suppose.
 
Well my 6 month old G10 still looks absolutely brilliant. I run it in 'game' mode for games, as much of the time I play in the day and need the brightness. Not quite torch mode, but pretty bright. PS3 games look great as you'd expect, and most Wii games looks fantastic as well. It's the best set I've seen for both HD and Wii games, much better then any of my friends' LCDs. Strangely PS2 games still look pretty bad, oh well.

I watch Blu-rays on it in the darker 'cinema' mode at night, and it looks like a pristine 35mm print is being projected onto the wall. Plasma just approximates film better, it looks amazing.
 
Sharp will be introducing their new line of TVs with the new UV2A LCD technology this year in North America. As a bonus they are adding a fourth color (Yellow), they are the first display manufacturer of any kind on Earth who has decided that the primary colors Red, Green, and Blue are no longer adequate for transmissive display technologies and a fourth, non-primary color (Yellow) is necessary to improve picture quality and color reproduction sell more TVs. :lol

Sony has partnered with Sharp and their new high-end TVs supporting 3D will also be using Sharp's UV2A panels, though with only the 3 primary colors. Those are due this summer.

I'm keeping a close eye on Sony's upcoming TVs, if UV2A is as claimed with superior contrast and 100% improved response time, then near- or equal-to-plasma black levels and motion resolution may be within reach, and without the "magic" of increasing black levels over the life of your plasma TV! :lol

edit: I should note that Sony is still quite busy shoehorning 3D support into the PS3, nobody knows how they are going to do it since the PS3 is an HDMI 1.3a device and other 3D equipment so far have required HDMI 1.4+ to make 3D support work. This isn't a bandwidth issue, as HDMI 1.4+ has the same bandwidth specifications as HDMI 1.3a, however HDMI 1.4 adds new EDID codes to support detection of 3D support. So if Sony kludges in the new EDID codes into HDMI 1.3a for the PS3, if you buy a new Sony 3D-capable TV you'll at least know your TV will be able to talk to your PS3 and communicate that it supports 3D, something which might end up being iffy or non-functional on a non-Sony 3D-capable TV. The addition of 3D support is likely to be yet another shitstorm in the long saga of HDMI compatibility shitstorms between different brands and HDMI levels of equipment.
 
Unknown Soldier said:
Sharp will be introducing their new line of TVs with the new UV2A LCD technology this year in North America. As a bonus they are adding a fourth color (Yellow), they are the first display manufacturer of any kind on Earth who has decided that the primary colors Red, Green, and Blue are no longer adequate for transmissive display technologies and a fourth, non-primary color (Yellow) is necessary to improve picture quality and color reproduction sell more TVs. :lol

Sony has partnered with Sharp and their new high-end TVs supporting 3D will also be using Sharp's UV2A panels, though with only the 3 primary colors. Those are due this summer.

I'm keeping a close eye on Sony's upcoming TVs, if UV2A is as claimed with superior contrast and 100% improved response time, then near- or equal-to-plasma black levels and motion resolution may be within reach, and without the "magic" of increasing black levels over the life of your plasma TV! :lol

edit: I should note that Sony is still quite busy shoehorning 3D support into the PS3, nobody knows how they are going to do it since the PS3 is an HDMI 1.3a device and other 3D equipment so far have required HDMI 1.4+ to make 3D support work. This isn't a bandwidth issue, as HDMI 1.4+ has the same bandwidth specifications as HDMI 1.3a, however HDMI 1.4 adds new EDID codes to support detection of 3D support. So if Sony kludges in the new EDID codes into HDMI 1.3a for the PS3, if you buy a new Sony 3D-capable TV you'll at least know your TV will be able to talk to your PS3 and communicate that it supports 3D, something which might end up being iffy or non-functional on a non-Sony 3D-capable TV. The addition of 3D support is likely to be yet another shitstorm in the long saga of HDMI compatibility shitstorms between different brands and HDMI levels of equipment.
Click to expand...


That's intresting about Sony using the Sharp panels. I've always hated Sony panels precisely because their LCDs have really poor black levels. Not that I don't believe you, but do you have a link that talks about Sony's introduction of this technology and the way it will help reproduce plasma blacks?
 
I just purchased a new TV in December. After months of research I chose an LED LCD over plasma. I purchased a 55' LG LH90, a TV with excellent black levels, and excellent reviews pretty much everywhere. Really the reasons I chose LCD over plasma were pretty simple. First, my living room has one wall with large windows, so a matte screen was a must. Second, I wanted to be conscious of the TV's power consumption, and LCD is known to be more conservative. Finally, I know IR is not really an issue, but still it was a concern for me. So I went with and LCD LED. Couldn't be happier. Here's a pic (sorry for the quality, phone camera):

0403001104a.jpg
 
D6AMIA6N said:
I just purchased a new TV in December. After months of research I chose an LED LCD over plasma. I purchased a 55' LG LH90, a TV with excellent black levels, and excellent reviews pretty much everywhere. Really the reasons I chose LCD over plasma were pretty simple. First, my living room has one wall with large windows, so a matte screen was a must. Second, I wanted to be conscious of the TV's power consumption, and LCD is known to be more conservative. Finally, I know IR is not really an issue, but still it was a concern for me. So I went with and LCD LED. Couldn't be happier. Here are some pics:

0403001104a.jpg
Click to expand...

Great tv man. I was about to get that as well. But I found the sharp deal...

I've seen this deal right now. :)

Newegg - Samsung 40" 1080p 240Hz LCD HDTV LN40B750 $829.99 + FS

Enter coupon code(s) EMCYPPY72

Aside from this, I heard the Samsung has fairly bad input lag about 50 ms... :(
 
So the new panasonic plasmas still have this black issue that you guys talk about?

Should I go with a different brand?

also: beautiful setup D6AMIA6N
 
Proc said:
So the new panasonic plasmas still have this black issue that you guys talk about?

Should I go with a different brand?

also: beautiful setup D6AMIA6N
Click to expand...
Is it JUST a panasonic issue? Or a plasma issue?
And how noticable is it in reality?
 
Proc said:
So the new panasonic plasmas still have this black issue that you guys talk about?

Should I go with a different brand?

also: beautiful setup D6AMIA6N
Click to expand...


I went with a different brand...
 
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