That was my situation, I'm a huge Metroid fan, but I don't care for the transition to the 3d world we saw in prime. I felt it really slowed the pace of the game down and made the backtracking even more boring. I had my fill of prime after 1 and never came back.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Should Metroid cater to small target group like the Souls series?
- Thread starter nkarafo
- Start date
That was my situation, I'm a huge Metroid fan, but I don't care for the transition to the 3d world we saw in prime. I felt it really slowed the pace of the game down and made the backtracking even more boring. I had my fill of prime after 1 and never came back.
OrbitalBeard
Member
krizalidzero
Member
What I must say is that Nintendo needs to stop being afraid of being Family Only and take Metroid to the next level.
nkarafo
Member
Well, they kinda are. if Nintendo can't do a medium (not saying high) budget Metroid game then who can?
Difficulty more then likely had an impact on the game's legs. However I think you're only half right. People having their fill in combination with Halo 2 offering just so much more at the exact same time played a large role as well. Halo 2 launched a week earlier. Then the Xbox had more positive buzz and press around it. Nintendo never managed the negative narrative around the GameCube until it was to late I felt. Then there is the advertising between the two. Halo 2 had this while Metroid Prime 2 had this in the US. While I think a number of people were simply satisfied with Prime 1 there were just better options out there and Nintendo weren't catering to people that wanted more. Prime 2's local multiplayer was not the answer either. By then I think people knew what the Xbox Live logo meant. If you had a choice and weren't a insanely hardcore Metroid fan and had access to an Xbox it was an easy choice to make when you could only get one game at the time.
Nintendo continued to not learn when it came to Prime 3. Again no online mulitplayer and releasing pretty much at the same time as Halo 3 but this time a month earlier. Nintendo just makes bad decisions that impact this IP and don't seem capable of learning from them. Or at least learning the right lessons.
The issue is they have put Metroid on a big pedestal in the past, and it really hasn't changed its fortunes. For all the critical acclaim its received, it's done little to move the needle past frankly middling sales, even with Nintendo putting their best foot forward on marketing some of the titles.
It's the kind of thing that a lot of Metroid fans don't want to hear, but the ultimate problem is that Metroid just really isn't all that appealing as we think it is. It's a dark, gloomy isolated experience that shuns a lot of conventions of more mainstream titles, and it doesn't really lend itself all that well to more social focuses, be they in a direct way like multiplayer or indirectly as a connected experience, as they tried with the WiiConnect24 features in Prime 3. As it is and dare I say as we would prefer the series to be, there's really not a great pull to the whole IP; it's the kind of game that lives on being your favorite hardcore gamer's favorite game, but it's not thriving as a result.
If they want Metroid to be successful, I do agree with others that they must wipe the slate clean of expectations, lest we wind up with frustrating half-measures like Other M again. The question is would older fans like what they would have to do to get it out of its niche, and if it would be enough to get new fans on board and keep them there.
I did allude to that earlier in my post about losing the Goldeneye/Perfect Dark crowd. Prime is the sort of game that should augment an ecosystem that had games like those. It is not the sort of game to replace them, and that's something I don't think Nintendo realized until it was far too late to get that crowd back.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
There's no stealing an audience. Metroid didn't go to Playstation, so if there's any inkling of desire for Metroid games, they'd have bought a Nintendo system to play them.
It's simply a matter of lost interest.
evilromero
Member
The premise for this thread topic is flawed. You're assuming the Souls series is niche or appealing to a "small target group," which is objectively untrue. We've seen how well the last few games have sold. They appear on the Top 10 best sellers list for months at a time. What is niche about that?
How well did Symphony of the Night or the GBA Castlevanias sell?
nkarafo
Member
A Metroid game doesn't need online multiplayer, or multiplayer in general.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Castlevania has a fanbase. News at eleven.
I wish Metroid could be like Kirby where they just make a solid game once in a while and that's that.
This is worth quoting again, because it was true.
The feeling I got in Dark Souls is the same feeling I got in the best Metroid games: isolation, exploration, discovering new areas, fighting through great evil, often lost, always reward.
Nintendo got "scared" with Metroid and changed everything about it to appeal to a wider audience... at the expense and misunderstanding of what fans loved about it to begin with.
Imagine with me, if you will, if Dark Souls went the Other M route.
Imagine Dark Souls III... but this time it's completely, entirely linear. Imagine it has a ton of QTEs. Imagine it has a group of characters tagging along that never shut up. Imagine it just "gave" you all your weapons and abilities at arbitrary moments in time. Imagine you could mash the D-pad and spam invincible dodging, which is the same button you used to MOVE. Imagine you could regenerate all your health, magic, and ammo by "concentrating". Imagine you had someone in your ear telling you EXACTLY where to go. Imagine the game stopped your progress constantly to force you to play "Where's Waldo" pixel hunt mini-games. Imagine the game didn't tell you that you even unlocked a new ability when you had. Imagine SOMEONE ELSE finished off all the main bosses instead of your character, by your own hands. Imagine your character sobbed uncontrollably in front of a major boss for a solid minute, as you sit there and watch helplessly, until your partner has to rescue you. Imagine you find a new area of the game filled with challenging monsters, only for an NPC to tell you not to go in there and then flies away with that level of the game. Imagine all your attacks are auto-targeted to whatever enemies are in the area, even if they're off-screen. Imagine every attempt to explore or backtrack to a bonfire was blocked by locked doors that sealed behind you. Imagine areas you KNOW you can get to barricaded by invisible walls. Imagine getting the ring that lets you walk on lava only to told you can't use it yet, but you have to walk through the lava, and only at the end of the lava run does a character permit you to wear your ring. Imagine you get to the final boss of the game and someone you've never even seen before pops up before you can do anything and kills the boss instead. Imagine every few feet were plagued with awful, overdramatic, overly-long chatty cutscenes that destroy all mood, tension, and pacing.
... Dark Soul fans would rightly revolt.
I'm not sure what SotN did, but I do know that CotM did incredibly well in Japan for the genre. Unfortunately, Konami tried to globalize the brand under the Castlevania banner, even in Japan, and sales never recovered over there. I think IGA went on record as saying that HoD didn't do what they wanted it to do.
nkarafo
Member
You know what gets me though. There are so many games that try to be Metroid. And they end up being successful and people love them. Like Symphony of the Night and all Metroidvanias after it. Or Shadow Complex. Or that other game with the Mexican masks that supposedly has similar design, i forget it's name. Games with either high or low budgets. All successful and loved.
The only game that doesn't want to be Metroid anymore is Metroid.
The only game that doesn't want to be Metroid anymore is Metroid.
I don't believe that's true. Multiplayer would not impact any single player content. It would allow people that want to be in that world and share it with others in another way. It would be something that would keep them returning more and more because they enjoyed the action and how the game played without having to devote large amounts of time to work through puzzles, etc. Having mulitplayer does not stop you from having a Metroid experience.
Metroid as an IP needs something and focusing completely on single player has not been working. Changing that doesn't seem to be working. In fact that's more of turn off. The Super Metroid and Prime styled single player is fine. It's fine in so many other games. However because you are so isolated and alone you need something to complement that. I think that might be why they came up with Blastball for Federation Force. I guess we'll see how that goes. However I'm worried that's two steps forward and one step back move based on how that games overall looks.
FunkyPajamas
Member
Guacamelee <3
At this point I'm not sure that Nintendo deserves Metroid. It hurts me to think that way, but it's like they don't know what to do with it and they don't understand what made it great.
The bolded is not true. The Prime trilogy sold good enough, so somebody clearly did something right. Hell, Prime sold "gangbusters" for an IP that skipped a generation and was completely overhauled, going from a sidescroller to a first person person action/exploration game. It was Metroid Other M that killed the franchise's momentum.
I don't think Metroid's formula is even something that's a sales problem.
If we look at things like Batman, Tomb Raider, and the first BioShock, we see games selling 6-10 million copies featuring the hub, power unlock, and backtracking systems present in Metroid.
However, the primary audience for this isn't on Nintendo systems. It's like how Microsoft and Sony are sitting on a bunch of platformers that aren't useful in 2015 because the audience for retail platforming titles doesn't exist on their platforms anymore.
They could still attempt to vastly crank up the production values and get back to two million copies sold, but I'm not sure it would be profitable.
It might make sense to actually take your sentiment even further and make $20 downloadable sidescrolling titles since Metroidvanias like that have historically done quite well.
If we look at things like Batman, Tomb Raider, and the first BioShock, we see games selling 6-10 million copies featuring the hub, power unlock, and backtracking systems present in Metroid.
However, the primary audience for this isn't on Nintendo systems. It's like how Microsoft and Sony are sitting on a bunch of platformers that aren't useful in 2015 because the audience for retail platforming titles doesn't exist on their platforms anymore.
They could still attempt to vastly crank up the production values and get back to two million copies sold, but I'm not sure it would be profitable.
It might make sense to actually take your sentiment even further and make $20 downloadable sidescrolling titles since Metroidvanias like that have historically done quite well.
lol
A videogame selling more than 1 million units could only be classified as a megahit in 1994.
krizalidzero
Member
A Metroid reboot made in Japan would be interesting, or a good spin off, like playing with a Pirate or something
Triggerhappytel
Member
That's incredible. The series has become a real juggernaut. Perhaps the biggest success story of last gen.
What is successful? Did any of those games sell over 2 million? Do any of them outsell Metroid?
The genre has a cap. It's not that popular. Metroid can only grow so far. These titles are very popular on enthusiast sites like GAF, but they aren't multi million sellers. Metroid as far as I know is the biggest seller in the genre.
nkarafo
Member
It would impact the SP.
Because as many people have already mentioned, isolation is one of the things than make Metroid what it is, it's a part of it's atmosphere. For a multiplayer to exist, it needs characters. More and more characters. And all these characters will need to interact somehow with the game's universe and Samus herself. Metroid won't feel as good if it has a social side with it.
That's why i'm suggesting that Metroid should stick to a smaller player base. Because every recipe to make it more popular is a recipe to make it less and less "Metroid". You either gonna have a great Metroid game that few people will play, or a game that many people will play but won't be as good for a Metroid title.
I'd argue that the reason why those games were successful is that they really aren't anything like Metroid at all. Though a big change for the series as a whole, SotN was already part of a very successful series, while Guacamelee was focused more on the offbeat humor and vibrant yet inviting art style. The closest of those games to Metroid is Shadow Complex, but even that made some rather significant changes by being a lot easier to get into, as well as having a big narrative component that stayed with the game throughout and wasn't obfuscated to the point of having players dig around to find it.
nkarafo
Member
Ok so there's something really wrong with Metroid then, that prevents it to sell well, but we don't know what it is? Certainly, its not the lack of online or multiplayer. So what exactly is the thing that makes the game unpopular, if it's more demanding game/level design isn't the problem?
I don't think that's true, especially when that's a worldwide sum. There are games that released just in Japan that utterly eviscerated that total.
NeonZ
Member
There was no momentum though. Prime 1 did very well, approaching 3 millions, but none of the later Prime games got close to that. Prime 3 still managed to sell more than one million, but that's probably why Other M exists in the first place.
Shadowdude
Neo Member
By now, all that's left of Metroid is a small target group.
DoktorEvil
Banned
Someone gets the formula and why it worked. Even going first person, that sense of dread and fear was still there. Trying to make Samus into someone she isn't wasn't the problem, it was with the core gameplay in Other M that insulted the player's intelligence and Metroid creator Yoshio Sakamoto just completely forgot what drew the fanbase to the game and tried to make something that was... unacceptable.
I would love a Dead Space-esque return to Metroid. Go full horror.
If we're going with the idea that Metroid should take after Souls, then it kind of does. Souls has a big multiplayer community after all, and Nintendo has tried and is trying to push multiplayer Metroid experiences after all. Not sure what they plan now that Splatoon has given them a successful multiplayer shooter, albeit a different one.
I've been thinking myself that Metroid would benefit from a difficulty increase to get some of the Souls fanbase. It would fit the tone of the series. But Metroid has two problems. First, while it's a consistent million seller, it struggles to get beyond that. They've tried traditional Metroidvania in 2D and 3D, made it linear, made more actiony, threw in multiplayer, tried the cinematic angle, and nothing managed to actually give it a break out hit. Second, it's got a high opportunity cost. Why should Sakamoto work on an expensive 1.5 million selling Metroid when he can work on a 4 million selling Tomodachi? Why should EAD work on Metroid when they can focus on the next Mario or Splatoon? Why should Retro work on Metroid when they can make a 5 million selling Donkey Kong? It's expensive, time consuming, and has lesser returns than products of a similar scale. Outsourcing is an option of course, but they did that with Other M and well, yeah. Now they're doing that with Federation Force, and I can't say exactly what they want from it. They know it's a spin-off, not a proper Metroid. I'm inclined to think it's meant to whet people's appetite for the next proper Metroid in NX, but obviously they can't talk about any NX projects yet.
Your perception is skewed by the current AAA releases (and their total budget).
Whatever sold more than 1 million units in 1994 could only be considered a megahit.
How big do you think budgets were back then?
Captain Smoker
Member
Code:
[B]Sys. Name LTD As of[/B]
GCN Metroid Prime 2.780.000 Dec 2006
NES Metroid 2.730.000 Dec 2006
GB Metroid II: Return of Samus 1.720.000 Dec 2006
GBA Metroid Fusion 1.600.000 Dec 2006
SNES Super Metroid 1.420.000 Dec 2006
WII Metroid Prime 3: Corruption 1.410.000 Dec 2013
GCN Metroid Prime 2: Echoes 1.100.000 Dec 2008
NDS Metroid Prime: Hunters 1.080.000 Dec 2013
[B]All Metroid Series 13.840.000 Various[/B]This list only includes million sellers.
I think Metroid Prime's success is actually a good follow-on to what I was saying earlier. The game was a top shelf AAA game in 2001 and benefited tremendously.
These days, if you want a top shelf AAA game with many of the structural elements of Metroid, you buy something like Batman or Tomb Raider instead, because Nintendo isn't going to spend $50+ million on Metroid in order to compete (and they're not making hardware to compete on that end a la the GameCube versus PS2 to boot).
While Zelda has held on better than Metroid, I feel it similarly has issues relative to Ocarina of Time because now you buy games like GTA V or Assassin's Creed for that type of huge scale, great graphics, great production values, cinematic type of experience.
Things like Mario, Mario Kart, and Smash Bros have held on vastly better since the selling points are entirely placed upon the gameplay component and essentially none of it on the atmosphere, storyline, or cinematic elements. Splatoon was a really good fit for their modern audience whereas, by comparison, I expect Xenoblade X to do much worse.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
The problem is one of expectations. Demon's Souls & Bloodborne were big successes on a single platform because they were mid-budget projects with reasonable sales expectations. And a big reason why they're able to keep these budgets reasonably sized is due to experience - From has been making these kind of games for decades and has gotten really good at it.
In contrast, Nintendo appears to want Metroid to be a big tentpole series like Mario & Zelda, but can't figure out how to make that happen so they keep changing up the format. The smart thing to do now would be to make a low-budget game to try to revive the series with a minimal amount of risk - unfortunately, Nintendo isn't making a low budget new Super Metroid which could go really well with old Metroid fans, they appear to be going more for a low budget new Freedom Wars which isn't what the fanbase wants at all.
In contrast, Nintendo appears to want Metroid to be a big tentpole series like Mario & Zelda, but can't figure out how to make that happen so they keep changing up the format. The smart thing to do now would be to make a low-budget game to try to revive the series with a minimal amount of risk - unfortunately, Nintendo isn't making a low budget new Super Metroid which could go really well with old Metroid fans, they appear to be going more for a low budget new Freedom Wars which isn't what the fanbase wants at all.
nkarafo
Member
I squeeze my head and can't find a good idea for multiplayer in a Metroid game. other that make a hunters-esque game perhaps, with various bounty hunters killing each other but being completely seperated from the SP. But there are so many online shooters out there. its an over saturated market, i doubt people would care much.
While I agree with this for the most part, wouldn't most of these arguments also apply to Zelda? It's heavily puzzle and exploration based and is far from the pick up and play nature of Mario and Pokemon. Yet its sales, even if they're not at their peak, are at a much higher tier than even Metroid's best days. Is it just Zelda being stronger than Metroid in general, or am I missing something about Zelda?
No, I think you're right. I just made a post following up on that a bit, but basically I think that its historic audience is a better sticking point, and that it also gets more investment than Metroid.
It doesn't help that Metroid's biggest seller was also in the GameCube era whereas Zelda launched up tremendously during Nintendo's prime.
If we do look at something like A Link Between Worlds though, it's the worst performing of Nintendo's 3DS million sellers.
For example, from our October 2014 NPD thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=932551
- Mario Kart 7: 3.62 million
- Super Mario 3D Land: 3.34 million
- New Super Mario Bros. 2: 2.33 million
- Pokémon X: 2.11 million
- Pokémon Y: 2.03 million
- Animal Crossing: New Leaf: 1.42 million
- The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D: 1.41 million
- Luigi’s Mansion: Dark Moon: 1.36 million
- Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS: 1.20 million
- The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds: 1.06 million
krizalidzero
Member
1.- Where are these numbers from?
2.- Other M supposedly sold 1.1 Million.
evilromero
Member
Like I've said in a similar thread, just one badass Metroid game isn't going to miraculously pull that audience to a Nintendo platform. Nintendo would need to sustain such content output for the mainstream gamer to take notice. It would probably take a least a generation of regular releases that would target the typical Metroid crowd.
Pretty sad that they fucked this series up so badly. So much success from the Prime 1/Fusion era wasted.
Right, and problematically, they are also experiences available elsewhere.
By comparison, very few people are making anything that's like Mario Kart, Smash, or Mario platformers, especially anywhere near the expected quality.
NeonZ
Member
2d Zelda games quickly fell after the series went 3d though. This isn't a situation like Mario where the 2d games were still shown to be just as big as before.
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past 4.61
The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening 3.83
---(Ocarina of Time released)---
The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening DX 2.22
The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Seasons/Ages 3.98 (Remember, these are actually two separate games)
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past / Four Swords 2.72
The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures 0.81
The Legend of Zelda: Minish Cap 1.76
The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds 2.51
Even Skyward Sword outsold all 2d games post OoT.
Yes. I feel the 2D games have a notably larger departure from the "epic AAA game" experience Ocarina of Time helped cement the series as being known for.
Similarly I don't think GTA would do very well with top down entries anymore, and I don't think the Assassin's Creed sidescroller set the world on fire.