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[botty]

I don't think recent Tales games have cooldowns on skills. They have cooldowns on item usage though. Also, the transition from the map to the arena was pretty seamless in Graces (unlike Abyss lol). Unless you're really sensitive about any sort of transition, I'd say that "significant" is slightly exaggerated.

I may have undermined Tales' action JRPG status. The last time I played it, though, it did seem kind of menu heavy, and the use of cool downs, but maybe that was just a poor choice in a Tales Of game. But if you're right, then that means the genre is already shifting towards where I figure it will be to appeal to those kind of gamers.

You know, something doesn't have to sell millions of units to be financially viable. Zeboyd Games seems to do just fine for themselves.

True. But this is a business, and I am sure they want to make as much as they can with their products. This doesn't mean they have to lose their traditions or anything, but I don't see why they can't make a game that appeals to the new age gamer and still have a great game, too.

I'm pretty sure Tales of Xillia is the best selling Tales game in the west since Symphonia. That's not a decline.

Is it? I remember reading something about one of the Xillia games having disappointing sales or something. fake edit

 

[TC McQueen]

Probably because that's what's popular in Japan, just like sci-fi and tolkien tropes are popular over in America.

Actually, anime and video games are still niche stuff, but teenagers and older people who spend tons of money are around in enough numbers to make that stuff viable despite their shrinking audience.

 

[Soriku]

Is it? I remember reading something about one of the Xillia games having disappointing sales or something. fake edit

That's Xillia 2, but Namco was just high when making up that 650k expected figure. It still sold 500k+ which is pretty damn good. It's one of the better selling Tales games in a while in Japan.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

Yes.

Kingdom Hearts is a great series and only scratches the surface of this "action JRPG" genre. Imagine KH with a Final Fantasy skin, deep realtime combat, RPG-like complexity and a plot with believable characters.

It'd be fantastic.

 

[MilkBeard]

I understand that Tales isn't turn based in a traditional sense, but it still has a system that has traces of turn based, with its cool down. And also the use of closed arenas keeps it in the in-between zone that would still have a significant impact on the game's pace.

Incorrect, besides the arena thing. And honestly, as I said before, I don't want to see JRPGs reduce the party size or eliminate it so they can be more like Uncharted/Dark Souls/etc. etc.

Tales of is completely action based, although it has a unique system that is derived from the heritage of controlling the characters on a 2D plane. But seriously, go play Tales of Graces and tell me that it is turn based. There is nothing turn based about it.

 

[Supermanisdead]

all this thread is doing is demonstrating your [ i g n o r a n c e ] about rpgs, botty. just because your crackhead johns pay you in kingdom hearts games and collectibles, doesn't mean you can't try other games too. take the time to LEARN what you are talking about. and go play mother 3 already.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

Really? Really?

Well for one, people who regarded I - VI as one of the finest games in the genre, Him coming into pertinent with VII and beyond has certainly changed the franchise.

Its a justifiable coherent argument of an opinion but just because you choose to ignore such talk, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. So please spare me the drivel.

Oh please, don't even get defensive now. You call that an explanation? Explain what he did. I'm waiting. Him designing the costume of heroes didn't ruin anything. Find a more realistic scapegoat.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

Wouldnt mind someone explaining to me why anime and videogames from Japan seemed to be stuck firmly in highschool.

That is because there is a glorification of youth in Japanese culture. There is an aging population and a declining birth rate, so there is a strong fascination of the times when people are most virile and healthy. When you add that those times are considered a great time in their life before the tedium of regular work schedule, especially in the very work-heavy culture of Japan, it kind of makes sense that they would looks back with rose colored glasses.

It also explains why there is an over abundance of that location for gaming and anime use.

 

[Crash Station]

True. But this is a business, and I am sure they want to make as much as they can with their products. This doesn't mean they have to lose their traditions or anything, but I don't see why they can't make a game that appeals to the new age gamer and still have a great game, too.

This is the mindset that put several companies out of business. There are plenty of moderately successful developers and publishers that are perfectly happy with where they are. The Xseeds and Aksys' have just as much of a place in the industry as the Activisions and EAs.

Is it? I remember reading something about one of the Xillia games having disappointing sales or something. fake edit

That's Xillia 2, and it's only referring to the Japanese release. The game hasn't hit the west yet, and when it does, I'm sure it will do well. Besides, it's not like 500k is anything to scoff at even if it didn't meet expectations. It's a Tales game, not something with the budget of GTA5.

 

[Cloudy]

No

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

True. But this is a business, and I am sure they want to make as much as they can with their products. This doesn't mean they have to lose their traditions or anything, but I don't see why they can't make a game that appeals to the new age gamer and still have a great game, too.

That will just make your audience go away in search of the mainstream audience, and this gen has shown how well that works. :/

 

[udivision]

Yes.

Kingdom Hearts is a great series and only scratches the surface of this "action JRPG" genre. Imagine KH with a Final Fantasy skin, deep realtime combat, RPG-like complexity and a plot with believable characters.

It'd be fantastic.

FFXV?

 

[botty]

Incorrect, besides the arena thing. And honestly, as I said before, I don't want to see JRPGs reduce the party size or eliminate it so they can be more like Uncharted/Dark Souls/etc. etc.

Tales of is completely action based, although it has a unique system that is derived from the heritage of controlling the characters on a 2D plane. But seriously, go play Tales of Graces and tell me that it is turn based. There is nothing turn based about it.

Yeah, I admitted that I might have undermined Tales as a action JRPG

all this thread is doing is demonstrating your [ i g n o r a n c e ] about rpgs, botty. just because your crackhead johns pay you in kingdom hearts games and collectibles, doesn't mean you can't try other games too. take the time to LEARN what you are talking about. and go play mother 3 already.

I've played many RPGs, and I know that they are all better than that Mother game you enjoy so much.

This is the mindset that put several companies out of business. There are plenty of moderately successful developers and publishers that are perfectly happy with where they are. The Xseeds and Aksys' have just as much of a place in the industry as the Activisions and EAs.



That's Xillia 2, and it's only referring to the Japanese release. The game hasn't hit the west yet, and when it does, I'm sure it will do well. Besides, it's not like 500k is anything to scoff at even if it didn't meet expectations. It's a Tales game, not something with the budget of GTA5.

Well, I'm not talking about the companies that put together crappy products in order to try and exploit current trends. We can have games to appeal to new and emerging demographics that can be unique, interesting, and fun....or stressful as we saw with Dark Souls.

 

[Valnen]

The Kingdom Hearts style of gameplay is still in its infancy with only the KH using it fully (and really for only 4 games, KH1,2,Bbs,and 3D). SO ithink more JRPGs exploring it is not a bad thing. Im not calling for all JRPGs to be the same, but to spread out and look at how other genres are doing things in relation to story telling and presentation.

I would love more games with KH-like battle systems. So yeah, more games should try it, just not all.

 

[MilkBeard]

I wouldnt mind this either......but considering games coming from Japan that don't have an anime inspired design are few and far between (when they happen though its good shit) you gotta do what you can....

Wouldnt mind someone explaining to me why anime and videogames from Japan seemed to be stuck firmly in highschool.

I think this is more of an issue when it comes to Western appeal, as opposed to anything battle system related.

 

[Valnen]

NO NO NO NO ONO NO NO NO, PLEASE DON@T GIVE THEM ANY IDEAS.

Nomura is the one responsible destroying FF. I can't handle another franchise getting destroyed just like that.

What? No. No. No. Just the opposite actually. FF is dying because Nomura hasn't been involved with it for a long time. He's one of the only people with talent left in the company.

 

[rpmurphy]

I hope not. That would just lead to over-saturation of action RPGs, the majority of which would just be the same games they used to be but with mediocre gameplay tacked on instead.

Also, have people stopped liking playing games where they control a party or something? Is playing with AI or co-op really all there is to enjoy from RPGs?

 

[Randomizer]

what current gen game was he involved with? people praise him here all the time but it seems like he sat this generation out.

He's been designing characters as usual. He also produced The World Ends with You and err directed a bunch of portable Kingdom Hearts games of questionable quality. I don't understand people's love of him either he's extremely overrated. Hiroyuki Ito is Square's greatest designer and he seems to be hiding under a rock,

Spoiler

probably creating mobile games :'(

.

 

[botty]

He's been designing characters as usual. He also produced The World Ends with You and err directed a bunch of portable Kingdom Hearts games of questionable quality. I don't understand people's love of him either he's extremely overrated. Hiroyuki Ito is Square's greatest designer and he seems to be hiding under a rock,

Spoiler

probably creating mobile games :'(

.

Kingdom Hearts, Dissidia, TWEWY, and some of the memorable character designs from FF came from (or at least partially from) Nomura and you're saying he's over rated...?

 

[eyeball_kid]

No. I stopped playing Final Fantasy when I lost the ability to do turn-based combat. I prefer to fight enemies, not the UI.

 

[Atlantis]

I think this is more of an issue when it comes to Western appeal, as opposed to anything battle system related.

I should be clear that being anime inspired isn't really an issue, but the way these characters and stories are presented and written is almost insulting at times. Persona 4 or Fire Emblem compared to Star Ocean 4, for example.

My point for the OP is that if keeping JRPGS relevant or appealing is the goal, I don't think battle systems are where you want to look,

 

[Skilletor]

He's been designing characters as usual. He also produced The World Ends with You and err directed a bunch of portable Kingdom Hearts games of questionable quality. I don't understand people's love of him either he's extremely overrated. Hiroyuki Ito is Square's greatest designer and he seems to be hiding under a rock,

Spoiler

probably creating mobile games :'(

.

Birth by Sleep was amazing (best KH in the series, imo, although that might change when I finally play KH2:FM)
The Dissidia Games were amazing.
Dream Drop distance was decent. Had a bunch of ideas that I hope they evolve for KH3.

The random other KH games were all pretty garbage according to opinions. I didn't play them, personally.

He's been creative producer for a lot of games that I like (crisis core. FF: Theathryhthm, TWEWY, Type-0 (at least, I assume I'd like this. Looks great)). I'm not sure what that means.

Dissidia and BbS are my favorite games on PSP. Great battle systems, tons of strategy (competitive Dissidia is crazy to watch), fun board game in BbS.

His games always have lots of little subsystems that contribute to a deep, customizable battle system. Fun stuff.

Also, I love his character designs. I think they're amazing. I prefer Akihiko Yoshida's character designs overall, but Nomura is a very, very close second.

 

[10k]

No. God no. Nobody should ever follow Nomura's lead. Not unless they want to learn how to take 8 years to develop one game and need staff to keep the director on track.

I love turn based RPGs but there is a place for both turn based and action. I don't want a single style. Xenoblade was my favourite RPG this gen and it was action based but classic turn based games like Fire Emblem and Pokemon are still excellent and fun.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

FFXV?

That's what I'm hoping.

 

[Skilletor]

No. God no. Nobody should ever follow Nomura's lead. Not unless they want to learn how to take 8 years to develop one game and need staff to keep the director on track.

I love turn based RPGs but there is a place for both turn based and action. I don't want a single style. Xenoblade was my favourite RPG this gen and it was action based but classic turn based games like Fire Emblem and Pokemon are still excellent and fun.

Nomura has put out tons of games since FF15's original announcement. I doubt the blame for its issues could be placed soley at his feet.

 

[MilkBeard]

I should be clear that being anime inspired isn't really an issue, but the way these characters and stories are presented and written is almost insulting at times. Persona 4 or Fire Emblem compared to Star Ocean 4, for example.

My point for the OP is that if keeping JRPGS relevant or appealing is the goal, I don't think battle systems are where you want to look,

Yeah that was kind of my point. I have no problem with anime inspired designs. I think though, that they do help in keeping the genre in its niche. In Tales, for example, the creators are more concerned with giving their Japanese fans what they want, or at least appealing to that specific audience. The fact that other people like the series outside of Japan is just an plus for them, and it really only affects if we get the games localized at all. This is good for people who like Tales, but it definitely doesn't help in appealing to a wider audience. Not that the series really needs to though. Tales is the most consistent JRPG series, without a doubt in my opinion.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

THANK YOU BASED GOD NOMURA

lol the guy has been ruining Final Fantasy for ages, and Kingdom Hearts is the worst thing to come out of Square-Enix besides mobages

 

[10k]

Nomura has put out tons of games since FF15's original announcement. I doubt the blame for its issues could be placed soley at his feet.

Shinji Hashimoto has told the press that the Nomura's 'wonderful supporting staff will keep him on track'.

Asked how the company planned to keep the director on schedule - which drew audible laughter from the room - the brand manager insisted that Nomura would be helped out in getting XV out on time.

http://www.videogamer.com/ps4/final...pporting_staff_will_keep_nomura_on_track.html

If the director needs to have a bunch of people keep him on track when he's responsible for everything, and he becomes the laughing stock of the press for his delays and long dev cycles, I don't consider their person a good developer. Maybe he was before, but not now. He has a lot to prove with FFXV.

 

[chaostrophy]

No. Atlus and Falcom should be the inspirations to the genre. It seems like suicide to try to be a Final Fantasy killer and pour a huge budget into a JRPG to try to compete on spectacle. Get great art, great gameplay, and great story, and fans of the genre will be so excited we won't care about the technical level of the graphics.

 

[Cynar]

FUCK NO

Seriously No no no no no and more no.

Can't be repeated enough.

 

[Riffled]

No Kingdom Hearts is mediocore.

 

[botty]

http://www.videogamer.com/ps4/final...pporting_staff_will_keep_nomura_on_track.html

If the director needs to have a bunch of people keep him on track when he's responsible for everything, and he becomes the laughing stock of the press for his delays and long dev cycles, I don't consider their person a good developer. Maybe he was before, but not now. He has a lot to prove with FFXV.

2 delays which he will benefit from when you consider without those delays those games would have been on inferior hardware and buried beneath the FPS avalanche. PS4 is a great new start, away from the FF13 brand, to really deliver something spectacular for a new generation. I am not sure why you're trying to use one instance to paint his entire career, though.

No Kingdom Hearts is mediocore.

This is either trolling or just a really bad opinion.

 

[Valnen]

No Kingdom Hearts is mediocore.

Hahahaha no.

 

[Steel]

I am not saying all traditional turn based JRPG games should cease to exist, but I think developers should at least attempt to dive into this area and create interesting games, like we've seen with Dark Souls and will see again with FFXV.

Look, I love Dark Souls, it's one of my favorite games on current gen. But it's not a JRPG. It scratches my difficult RPG itch, but it really has a minimalist story and colorless characters. A minimalist story is fine, dark souls couldn't have worked without it, it just has no relation to anything within the JRPG genre and a lot of relations to WRPG games.

You're also assuming FF XV will be good, I want it to be, but we don't know that yet. Fans of previous final fantasies will give it a chance, I know I will, just like they gave XIII a chance, just like i did.

 

[AsylumX]

Thanks to Nomura, next gen will see two of the largest and most beloved JRPGs in the industry: Kingdom Hearts 3 and Final Fantasy XV. It just so happens that both of these juggernaut games will be Action JRPGs. And with that, it seems like Nomura is leading the way for this genre to appeal to Today's gamer; the gamer that is into face paced action, and doesn't want to be held back by the turn-based combat barrier. And I think it's time other developers began following his lead. I mean, this seems like the first generation where most JRPGs struggled to even have any kind of global appeal outside of the two I already mentioned. Where as face paced action games like Uncharted, Call of Duty, Borderlands, and AssCreed all rose up and appealed to today's gamer on a global scale. I mean... sure, if you're Pokemon you can still do turn-based and sell a bazillion copies, but not every has that pokemon reign.

So what do you think? Should more JRPG developers move towards the action JRPG style of gameplay where the money looks hot and appeals to today's gamer? Or do you think otherwise?

Please no. The idea is to have variety and not the same thing with a different coat of paint. JRPGs should stay JRPGs. Of course, an ARPG from Japan every now and then is okay but i don't like the idea of changing the whole japanese industry...

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

THANK YOU BASED GOD NOMURA

lol the guy has been ruining Final Fantasy for ages, and Kingdom Hearts is the worst thing to come out of Square-Enix besides mobages

His character designs "ruined" FF for you? I'm seriously baffled by this stray school of thought. Can someone, anyone, give me details about what Nomura actually did and why it ruined FF for you? Are any of you people aware that outside of designing characters, he has not had anything to do with FF, since 7?

 

[Team Filler]

If anything, they should follow Matsuno's lead (apart from the difficulty in making it to the end of a development cycle).

 

[zroid]

christ no

 

[Dark_castle]

What kind of stupid question is that?

What the industry truly needs now is fresh, new IP, new ideas and so on. Nobody should feel compelled to follow another's footsteps.

I say this as a general fan of Nomura's work.

 

[Supermanisdead]

tbh, ff15 is the most exciting ff looks since lightning returns (´ー&#65344┌

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

No. Atlus and Falcom should be the inspirations to the genre. It seems like suicide to try to be a Final Fantasy killer and pour a huge budget into a JRPG to try to compete on spectacle. Get great art, great gameplay, and great story, and fans of the genre will be so excited we won't care about the technical level of the graphics.

Fully agree with this, Atlus/Falcom are two companies that focus on making great games with great art/gameplay/story/music and just don't mind that much the graphic department, which is totally fine.

 

[Palette Swap]

God, no.

First because appealing to "today's gamer" has also led to a number of spectacular commercial failures (i.e. westernizing Japanese franchises).

Bear also in mind that the trends you discuss were for last gen, a gen FFXV and KH3 managed to skip altogether so I'm not really sure they're an example to follow. Doing double the sales and spending double the time in development isn't exactly a great prospect.

If anything, JRPGs need to be able to fit in B budgets so that they don't have to be million sellers to be profitable and thus can take more risks with whatever system they want to offer. That's how you get variety and eventually good surprises, not through some dogma.

No. Atlus and Falcom should be the inspirations to the genre. It seems like suicide to try to be a Final Fantasy killer and pour a huge budget into a JRPG to try to compete on spectacle. Get great art, great gameplay, and great story, and fans of the genre will be so excited we won't care about the technical level of the graphics.

This guy gets it.

 

[Randomizer]

Kingdom Hearts, Dissidia, TWEWY, and some of the memorable character designs from FF came from (or at least partially from) Nomura and you're saying he's over rated...?

I actually don't mind his character designs, a bit elaborate at times but still some of the best in the business. It's the fact that his game design chops haven't really been put to the test. Sure KH and KH2 were great but he isn't on the level of someone like Ito, who is responsible for some of the best Final Fantasy's and battle system's of the series.

Nomura's role in mainline FF up until now is exaggerated, he's been the character designer since 7 and that's about it. Don't get me wrong I am looking forward to FFXV but Nomura is far from the saviour of JRPG's that you are making him out to be.

 

[Steel]

Fully agree with this, Atlus/Falcom are two companies that focus on making great games with great art/gameplay/story/music and just don't mind that much the graphic department, which is totally fine.

Pretty much this. When final fantasy XIII sold upwards of 6 million copies and lost money it should have become clear that putting all your money into graphics and losing out on the story and world is just foolhardy.

Edit:

tbh, ff15 is the most exciting ff looks since lightning returns (´ー&#65344┌

That's an incredibly low bar. For me anyway.

 

[zroid]

tbh, ff15 is the most exciting ff looks since lightning returns (´ー`)┌

lol, can't disagree with that

 

[kazebyaka]

Yes, I believe that Nomura is onto something, and other japanese designers just don't want to leave the past alone. There's no place, outside a niche market, for a turn-based rpg anymore.

 

[Skilletor]

No Kingdom Hearts is mediocore.

I agree.

Unless you meant to say, "No. Kingdom Hearts is mediocre."

Punctuation is important.

http://www.videogamer.com/ps4/final...pporting_staff_will_keep_nomura_on_track.html

If the director needs to have a bunch of people keep him on track when he's responsible for everything, and he becomes the laughing stock of the press for his delays and long dev cycles, I don't consider their person a good developer. Maybe he was before, but not now. He has a lot to prove with FFXV.

Lots of stuff taken out of context here. They could be laughing at the suggestion that Nomura needed help keeping on track. Couple that with the fact that we know teams at square have been pulled of off projects to help with difficult, and ailing, games, and we really don't know the story behind the development of FF15.

Take it how you want. I'll look at the fact that Nomura has produced more games this generation than pretty much anybody at SE as proof that he can get results. I don't think he's got anything to prove with FF15. Square as a company, maybe, but that's just Nomura holding the company up as per normal.

 

[MilkBeard]

tbh, ff15 is the most exciting ff looks since lightning returns (´ー&#65344┌

Ha ha. Very true.

 

[gogosox8]

Um no? They should make a combat system that they like and not be tied down to any one system just because its a jrpg so the battle system has to be like x. You also shouldn't just chase the new hot thing just because its the new hot thing. Create a battle that you think is good and the sell me on it. I didn't know I wanted a battle system like the souls games have, but now I think its one of the best combat ever created in a game.

 

[frostshade]

I doubt any of the JRPG developers have the budget Square Enix has when developing their games. :x

I definitely don't want Falcom to follow him. They do their own thing well imo and have been making action RPG's before Kingdom Hearts existed. :c

I think homogenization is the reason why a lot of companies west-side phased out of business ergo complaints about games being clones of other games were frequent comments IIRC. :v

I still don't see how its possible to have a action rpg while controlling more than 1 character outside of online/offline co-op. I'd like something like Resonance of Fate/Valkyria Chronicles tbh.

Stories in general need a lot of improvement after being plagued with years of cliches and tropes, and that's where I feel following Kingdom Hearts will not help much since that series also contains tropes/cliches.

I still think Disney is the main reason people were initially attracted to the Kingdom Hearts series and wonder how it would been received had there not been any Disney characters in it. :x