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Should Nintendo take a break from Super Mario Bro's games?

I always like in these Nintendo be fucking up threads, there are a smattering of posts like "Make Metriod or Star Fox or FZero games".

Firstly, it's funny that Nintendo gets killed for milking and yet some of the more requested games are their old ones.

but mainly, I want to know why people ask for these so much? Judging by the constant outcry for them it makes me wonder why they aren't more popular than they are.

Did the Prime games sell well? and even if they did, it seems people want another 2D entry instead....do they sell?

As for Star Fox, would simply SF64 EXTREME Edition be enough? Then with FZero, Nintendo didn't even make the last one...and it bombed (fuck the world btw).

That's my issue with threads like this where the main idea is to put out Metroid or StarFox games as a solution. I don't think those are system sellers

and if Nintendo did come out with a direct that announced all 3 of those, people would still bitch that they are re-hashing too much lol.

Im not saying I mind or don't want these games but seeing people place them as the solution to Nintendo's problems is funny.

There is far more to having a successful lineup for a console than simply finding what sells the best and milk the living hell out of that and that alone. No the Metroid and FZero games didn't sell as well as Mario, but there are a lot of people who want a Mario game and something else (sci-fi adventure, extreme racing, flying, RPG, etc) who will buy a console with Mario and the other but won't buy a console with 2 Marios. Unfortunately for Nintendo there were a lot of people who would buy a Mario game and Wii___, but they aren't around much anymore.

That means Nintendo needs to get a wide variety of games, like F-Zero, Star Fox, Metroid, Pilot Wings, Pikmin, Mario sports, real sports even, Xenoblade, Party, etc., to satisfy as many tastes as possible. Some are coming, the usual MK, SB, Pikmin, and X but much more is needed. That will far more encourage 3rd parties who make games more like the others to get onboard (though the idiotic decision to again make a much weaker/different console with poor online means it may not be enough) than giving them every 2D platformer fanatic in the world as a userbase, especially since a Nintendo console is already a must for them. It will also help the console more than burning a specific type of gamer out by milking one genre.

I don't necessarily think that it would make the most short term profit for Nintendo but that it will set Nintendo up for a much better mid to long term. The biggest threat facing Nintendo right now is that outside of kids, increasingly aging and shrinking Nintendo fans, and whoever is a 2D platformer fanatic and not in either of the previous groups, they increasingly don't matter to gamers and the gaming industry at large. At this point they need to accept that abandoning core gamers with the Wii for casuals and then ignoring casuals as Apple started courting them along with the Wii U itself were monumental F%*$ ups. The priority now needs to be keeping themselves relevant to console gamers and the gaming industry ahead and not short term profit. They have a huge pile of cash, they can burn through some over the next few years.

Nintendo is offering DLC as a full retail package for those who lack internet, yes. They are not the first to do this. However, it's only on sale in stores until the end of the year, then it's just pure DLC again

Like I said, it's pointless to argue over since your argument is easily disproven without it. Just to do so a little anyways, I can see the argument for counting NSLU as pure DLC and I know my argument that it should be considered a separate game isn't the strongest. As an actual game I have no problem considering it DLC for the most part, but in the marketplace when discussing things like this, I consider it a separate game since I think that is how consumers will treat it. I could very easily be wrong on that, but it doesn't much matter here.

Though I do see the point you are making, I believe it is fundamentally flawed due to your lack of inclusion of ports/remakes.

The 5th, 6th and early 7th generations that you decided to promote for what one may consider 'responsible/even distribution of Mario platformers' had 6 ports as well as the games you listed, 1 on the GBC, 4 on the GBA, and 1 for the DS. I believe that had Nintendo continued followed this model since we wouldn't have likely got NSMB, NSMB2 or Super Mario 3D Land as the ports fulfilled the need for Mario platformers on Nintendo portables. As a result, I believe your post is showing a somewhat distorted reality.

Aside from the responses are to an argument as it was made by JoeM86, all including the ports will do is extend backwards when the milkage began. Doesn't change much, it works for a while but eventually you've gone back to the well too many times (*cough* Guitar Hero *cough*). Given the preponderance of ports it also divides the early period of port milking and good for Nintendo to stop that and move to new games. It also doesn't change that Nintendo has ramped up new game miliking excessively of late.
 
What I'd like to see more than anything is a cross-platform player/download system like they did with the GBA player, but digital. In other words, if I buy/download the game for DS/3DS I want to be able to play it on Wii U even if it's without the 3D. Also, all the VC game should be cross platform. They could charge extra for enhanced titles that use Wii U or 3DS functionality like using the touch screen, 3D, achievements, leaderboards, online, etc.
 
You seem to be forgetting all the new IPs Nintendo has made over the last few years. To jog your memory, I'll repost something I put early in this thread:


Which one of those has been tentpole disc release other than the obvious Wii Sports stuff? I overlooked Xenoblade so you've got me there. Pikmin and AC are over ten years old.
 
3d Land also was something new though. 3d World completely misses that side of the game by being just a Land rehash. It likely will sell software, but I'm not sure it'll help moving systems any more than NSMB U did.

3d World does have the addition of co-op multiplayer though, like the NSMB -> NSMB Wii transition, but, yet again, it's just reusing something we've seen before. And, really, I think Nintendo hurt its local co-op set up with the Gamepad +Wiimotes, rather than just a single control method. Yes, I know, asymmetrical multiplayer and all that, but I don't think that idea is resonating well with buyers.

Where to start here? I don't write to have a go at you specifically, but rather to address the "SM3DLand rehash" comments and some of the slating in this topic. I feel that such claims are very bad form. I will also break Super Mario 3D World's E3 reveal down, because I feel that this game has been on the end of an undeserved bash and trash.

I will address the NSMB series first. Each entry plays differently. The DS one is about a throwback to the 2D platforming era, and laid the foundations for the genre's revival during the 7th Generation. The Wii one featured a simultaneous multiplayer mode in the main game for the first time since Mario Bros.. The 3DS one is based around coin collection and sees the return of the leaf. The Wii U one is an extension of the multiplayer, this time allowing the GamePad user to assist or troll the other players, and there are various ways of playing the levels, too. For example, THIS CLIP of Spinning-Star Sky is sheer brilliance. Sometimes small touches are all that's needed to offer a difference.

For Super Mario 3D World, please, watch the E3 video again, and you'll see that it reveals a great deal in such a short space of time. It's actually very tight and well-crafted. You see Mario uncovering a few secrets on the first level - He deliberately doesn't collect the other power-ups or hit the question blocks, because they want to highlight just how much there is to uncover in one level alone. We also see coins in some clear pipes, and multiple routes to the other side - So, they've thought about racing each other there. This means that in single-player mode, you have plenty to explore. It also means that in multiplayer mode, even where you're beaten to a question block, you can still build up your competitive high score if you know the whereabouts of some of these secrets.

Sliding down slopes remains in the game, then you see 'wheel' platforms, which can affect your speed (for better or worse) - You see a shorter wheel platform with some enemies, and Mario appears to hit a lantern before sliding under them while running. If you watch carefully, there is an arrow leading to a platform above - So, you see an example of where other players might go in a race, or perhaps one of the level's secrets.

Next, he reveals the Cat Power-Up, and appears to roll into a Goomba before jumping and performing Sonic-style homing attacks. It shows a line of Goombas chasing him, so he runs, jumps onto a wall and scales it. So, we can expect that some levels will have this in mind, again for level exploration, secret areas, or maybe performing a pattern of attacks. Also,. note that when he climbs the wall, he can still walk along that platform, and you can see a green pipe quite far in the background, a corridor of coins (he performed the homing attack in front of that), wooden crates, wheel platforms, and an arrow pointing to the left - So, one can see that the levels are very rich in their content, and the different ways in which they can take on a level.

You see a hand on the screen, which hints at GamePad use. It reveals some question blocks and appears to slap and tickle a few enemies. There are more details about the GamePad use in the Developer Directs (It has a Camera Feature, you can use the touchscreen to freeze enemies and platforms, and reveal invisible coins and objects).

You see Toad, Luigi and Peach playing individually. Notice that Toad is quick and has shorter jumps, and is perhaps the best on levels with switches - Remember, in SMB2, he was the best for picking up lots of coins in SubSpace. See how Luigi has a slightly slower speed than Mario, but jumps further and higher, and that Peach floats. Luigi's segment takes place, perhaps in a Ghost House, and you can see staircases, hinting again at multiple routes and secrets - He uses his jumping skills to clear flights of stairs, so, there's a level where he may have an advantage in Racing Modes and Speed Runs. Peach's segment has many smaller platforms in the background, which hints that she will be best for reaching certain areas.

For a few seconds, you see Mario, Luigi, Toad and Peach running together in a line - Toad breaks into the lead, Mario and Luigi are seemingly tied, and Peach is trailing, then they jump. Toad has the lowest jump, so, he will hit the ground first and sustain speed. Mario has the second lowest jump, so he has the chance to break ahead of Luigi, unless there is a bigger obstacle in his path, in which case, Luigi has the chance to clear it with a jump (his segment hinted at that). Peach has the advantage on wider obstacles and using the floating skills to avoid landing in a pit of death. Her strengths aren't as obvious until the following segment with the tile platforms. Later in the clip, she uses her float to dispose of a Chargin' Chuck. Also, they run together as Cats, but Mario has the lead on Toad this time, while Luigi and Peach are in the same places. I suspect that this is more coincidental. It's pretty clear that Nintendo have taken some degrees of influence from SMB2, and perhaps the differences between each character can be better appreciated in a 3D environment.

Now, you have Mario and Peach running on a Snow Level - In SMB2, Mario loses some of his jumping ability when he carries an item; See that they're deliberate in showing Peach carry the snowball. She throws it and Mario catches in mid-air, before he throws it at the enemy in their path, before breaking into another jump. Although it doesn't show it, you can carry each other, too. Here, we see that the game allows for a co-operative element, and again, it showcases another way of playing a level. There are many possiblilities for Speed Runs, Battle Modes and Co-operative Multiplayer. You can see a circle of coins on the ice, which they ignore for now. Because a second later, you see the return of the Green Boot from SMB3, but in the form of an ice skate (Mario has his own red one), and they appear to be going for a red ring, which should reveal another secret. I thought Goombas on ice skates was a nice touch :).

There's a waterslide-esque level where your party rides a Dinosaur (Not Yoshi), and you're collecting rings/coins. You can see Toad and Mario (the quickest characters) teaming up to light some colourful tiles and uncover more secrets. Also, one can see the party jumping onto a spring to be elevated onto sliding platforms, which could crush you if timed badly. That requires co-operation, skill and good timing, while in Racing Mode, that's a test of nerves. There's a blocky 3D level, which sees Toad going into some small holes, and the camera being rotated to reveal a moving platform. One suspects that there is more depth and content to this level than meets the first glance.

Another co-operative multiplayer scene shows Mario and Peach using Fire Power-Ups before going through clear pipes. In Racing Mode, one might pick up the Star. It depends on whether you want to reach the end first, or build up a high score - But you're presented with options.

Finally, we see more of the Cat Power-Up in use. Mario scales an enemy before doing a Ground Pound on a plate and following up with a homing attack. So, perhaps there is room for combo moves to build up points, very much in the same way that you could fire a shell at a line of Koopa Troopas to get a 1-Up. Then he is slowed down by a wheel platform, affecting his jump onto the end-of-level flagpole, so he climbs it for the 1-Up - that's deliberate, because when you race each other, every point counts.

I'm genuinely disappointed that members on a site for so-called 'games enthusiasts' can seemingly do no better than view such games on a most superficial level. ESPECIALLY one made by the #1 house in the Computer and Video Game Industry. I don't know why a Super Mario Galaxy 3 would've been celebrated and NOT seen as 'safe', but some people are ragging and slagging this title, notably its graphical style, and calling it everything from a "quick and dirty up-port of a 3DS game" and "not a 'true' 3D Mario game" to a "rehash". Every one of those games had been and has been in development for some time, and they're treated with a great deal of care and passion - In fact, the FIRST THING Hayashida says is in his Direct is that they had the Wii U version in mind when they were developing Super Mario 3D Land, and while it did take inspirations from there, it had plenty of other new ideas. Here is the Developer Direct for Super Mario 3D World. I haven't even mentioned the Special Stages in SM3DLand - When one considers what is possible on the Wii U, that's more than a mouth-watering prospect.

I don't believe that they should take a break. They're right to continue to make what they want to make, and I hope that they will continue in this spirit for many years to come. Fans get more games to play as a result, and I'll never understand why anybody would ever complain about this.

But Yeah... Just because it has '3D' in the title, and the first part of the reveal shows Mario on a grass stage, it's a 'rehash' of a 3DS title... **Sigh and Roll Eyes... URGH**.
 
People saying "Well they've only released x number of games since 1986. It's not nearly as milked as Call of Duty," are ignoring the recent years. It's true that Mario titles weren't released as frequently in the mid 90s to the early 2000s, but let's look at the release schedule since 2006.

2006 - New Super Mario Bros.
2007 - Super Mario Galaxy
2008 -
2009 - Super Mario Bros. Wii
2010 - Super Mario Galaxy 2
2011 - Super Mario 3D Land
2012 - New Super Mario Bros 2, New Super Mario Bros Wii U
2013 - Super Mario 3D World

Mario's been on a yearly release schedule since the DS Lite/Wii launch. 2008 didn't have a Mario game, but that was balanced out by the release of two Mario games in 2012. It's just as bad as Call of Duty at this point. Sure, they may play differently, but it's still every single year there's a new major Mario game, and it's leading to franchise fatigue, especially over the last couple years. Compare that to the release schedule during the N64/Gamceube days.

1996 - Super Mario 64
1997 - 2001 - nothing
2002 - Super Mario Sunshine
2003 - 2005 - nothing

That's not milk Mario, but what they've been doing for the last 7 or 8 years is.

edit: don't mean franchise fatigue in the mainstream market, just mean franchise fatigue among gamers across the internet.
I enjoyed most of the games you listed above in the 'milking' era. I want more not less.

So weird that gamers are complaining about getting more good games.
 
I'm guessing NSMB will take a break. 2 and U will not sell anywhere close to the DS and Wii counterparts. A decline was expected, obviously, but it's a pretty sharp dropoff. I hope they change the style/core mechanics for the next (4DS) 2D Mario.

3D World I see it as Galaxy 2, team had ideas left from Land so it was logical to make a sequel (beyond it making business sense, of course). Next 3D Mario will probably be different.
 
I'm guessing NSMB will take a break. 2 and U will not sell anywhere close to the DS and Wii counterparts. A decline was expected, obviously, but it's a pretty sharp dropoff. I hope they change the style/core mechanics for the next (4DS) 2D Mario.

3D World I see it as Galaxy 2, team had ideas left from Land so it was logical to make a sequel (beyond it making business sense, of course). Next 3D Mario will probably be different.
3D World is certainly not a Galaxy 2 situation. 3D Land was a 3DS game. 3DWorld will have things they could never hope to accomplish with those hardware limitations. The only similarities is a similar art style and general controls.
 
Not to play devil's advocate or anything, but that list of new IP's can easily be whittled down due to various reasons:

Off the top of my head I can name new IPs like Xenoblade Chronicles, Soma Bringer, Wii.., Nintendogs, Brain Training, Pullblox/Pushmo, Dillon's Rolling Western, Maboshi, Disaster, Marionation Gear, Endless Ocean, Steel Diver, and probably several more I'm forgetting.

Pullblox/Pushmo, Dillon's Rolling Western, Maboshi,: Part of Ninty's E-Shop, which people won't touch until it's favorably compared to it's contemporaries.

Wii.., Nintendogs, Brain Training, Endless Ocean: "Casual", non character focused titles with gameplay that's "Not real"

Disaster, Marionation Gear, Soma Bringer: Exclusive to non-U.S regions, so impossible to play without region free capabilities.

Xenoblade, Steel Diver: Not made by the "Core" Nintendo teams, not given any advertising/care.

I of course don't think this way, but I just wanted you to see that there are reasons why people don't count these franchises. They only will count these franchises if the big N puts care into world crafting and marketing and as you can see by Xeno's exclusivity to one retailer, that's not something they'll immediately jump towards doing.

(Sorry if in advance if this post seems disjointed, I'm typing this while heading out the door.)
 
Not to play devil's advocate or anything, but that list of new IP's can easily be whittled down due to various reasons:



Pullblox/Pushmo, Dillon's Rolling Western, Maboshi,: Part of Ninty's E-Shop, which people won't touch until it's favorably compared to it's contemporaries.

Wii.., Nintendogs, Brain Training, Endless Ocean: "Casual", non character focused titles with gameplay that's "Not real"

Disaster, Marionation Gear, Soma Bringer: Exclusive to non-U.S regions, so impossible to play without region free capabilities.

Xenoblade, Steel Diver: Not made by the "Core" Nintendo teams, not given any advertising/care.

I of course don't think this way, but I just wanted you to see that there are reasons why people don't count these franchises. They only will count these franchises if the big N puts care into world crafting and marketing and as you can see by Xeno's exclusivity to one retailer, that's not something they'll immediately jump towards doing.

(Sorry if in advance if this post seems disjointed, I'm typing this while heading out the door.)

Man, I love that core studio excuse that is currently floating around. Monolith Soft is as much core as Naughty Dog.
 
This is kinda the artstyle I want in the next Mario game, weird source I know:

super-mario-street-art-graffiti-video-game.jpg


Kinda like the old box art, full of detail, Mario shows a bit of sunburn and strain, enemies a little more gritty and evil, but still nice and clean with well defined platform structures (although not made of repeating textures).
bonus points for a graffiti inspired design

This reminds me of in 2004 when Nintendo did that one advertising campaign with the Nintendo Street Crew or something.

http://www.underconsideration.com/speakup/archives/street_nintendo.jpg
 
Well, after New Mario U (great game), New Mario 2 (disappointing game), 3D Land (great game)and the incoming 3D World (if similar but bigger than land, could be another great game), I'd be happy to see them focusing during 2014 on other franchises, to release another "main" Mario on the Wii U in 2015.
 
Like every gen 64 it's usually one game (exception of galaxy) per console. I doubt after world we'll get another Mario game for a while. So, I guess you'll get your wish..?
 
Man, I love that core studio excuse that is currently floating around. Monolith Soft is as much core as Naughty Dog.

Sony has a history with external studios since forever, Nintendo does not.

People want new IP's from actual EAD. Even back then people didn't care as much for Interlligent Systems/SPD and HAL.
 
Sony has a history with external studios since forever, Nintendo does not.

People want new IP's from actual EAD. Even back then people didn't care as much for Interlligent Systems/SPD and HAL.

You mean like Rare, Next Level, Retro, GameFreak, HAL, Hudson etc?
 
I certainly believe they are over exerting the Mario franchise - short term profit but it could very well lead to franchise fatigue amongst consumers.

Honestly though, taking a break may not solve the problem in terms of the quality of the games (I'm mainly talking about the 2D games here). I don't believe the NSMB games are the way they are because the developers don't have creative ideas. They seem to be opting (Whether by choice or pressure from management) to have their ideas constrained. Lets ignore the overall NSMB aesthetic (Which I can guarantee has stuck around because its easy to make). The games have almost zero creativity world to world. Grass alnd, desert, ice, fire, cloud. They're deliberately reusing the same world types. I'm playing through Newer Super Mario bros Wii - a fan game using NSMB Wii assets - and the creativity on display is shocking. Theres a space world, a halloween themed ghost world, a giant themed world, a world with a mix of ice and fire at once - the game feels so much more creative, even though most of the assets are reused. It is not hard to be so creative - they just mixed up the different world's assets from the maingame to create something new. The Nintendo developed NSMB franchise does not do this - it does not even try.

My point is that Mario taking a break won't do anything unless the culture of the development team changes - they need to WANT to be creative. They need to want to go beyond the generic world types they have been using so far. As for the NSMB aesthetic, well so long as its profitable I think it will stick around, sadly. But they can inject so much life into it and keep it fresh if they stop being so fucking derivative.

As for 3D Mario, well those don't come around quite so often, and there aren't enough 3D platformers in this world today, so i say keep em coming. 3D world is the way it is because they chose it to be. I don't believe they are running out of ideas in 3D Mario. They made the conscious decision to do a sequel to 3D Land, and whether they had waited 2 years or 5, that decision would have likely been the same.

tl:dr - Yes, Mario is very over exposed right now (Not just because of the 2D/3D platformers but also because of Kart, Party and all the extraneous games). But taking a break isn't enough. They need to stop reusing world types and mix things up. A little creativity can make that simple art style do great things. See: Newer Super Mario Bros Wii

This is what I was trying to get at; if Nintendo's EAD team members are ever browsing around here, they should do themselves a favor and read stuff like this and get an English translator to read it back to Miyamoto.

I say Miyamoto b/c I know he's not hands-on w/ Mario anymore, but he probably still gets the final say as to if they can go TOO crazy w/ ideas for the games here and there (I think).
 
I'm genuinely disappointed that members on a site for so-called 'games enthusiasts' can seemingly do no better than view such games on a most superficial level. ESPECIALLY one made by the #1 house in the Computer and Video Game Industry. I don't know why a Super Mario Galaxy 3 would've been celebrated and NOT seen as 'safe', but some people are ragging and slagging this title, notably its graphical style, and calling it everything from a "quick and dirty up-port of a 3DS game" and "not a 'true' 3D Mario game" to a "rehash". Every one of those games had been and has been in development for some time, and they're treated with a great deal of care and passion - In fact, the FIRST THING Hayashida says is in his Direct is that they had the Wii U version in mind when they were developing Super Mario 3D Land, and while it did take inspirations from there, it had plenty of other new ideas. Here is the Developer Direct for Super Mario 3D World. I haven't even mentioned the Special Stages in SM3DLand - When one considers what is possible on the Wii U, that's more than a mouth-watering prospect.

TBF, I did just join here but before doing so I was talking some mad shit about 3D World on other spots. Since its reveal though I've taken a step back and am starting to appreciate it for what it is. I blame my rushed time w/ 3D Land for forming a lot of the earlier opinions, and if you're able to adjust the camera to more 64-like style (I think that's been confirmed, or hope so), that could probably open up the game a lot.

Plus having seen more 3D Land footage and playing Galaxy right now...other than the setting and gravity they actually seem to have a lot in common regarding level progression and linearity. And that benefits 3D Land 'cuz Galaxy's the shit.
 
Nintendo needs to take a massive break from super mario bros Nintendo is at a time where they run back to the well time and time again and need to start coming up with new IPS they afe running thier one to many times and will dry up soon enough
 
The "New" ones, yes.

The 3D ones, no.

Exactly.


Also, I think timing is what's annoying people more than anything else. We've happened to get a lot of Mario the past couple years, but they're all titles that generally come out once, maybe twice, a gen. We most likely won't get another Mario platformer on 3DS, and after 3D World we will probably get one more Mario platformer on Wii U in a few years.
 
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