Support NeoGAF

[Steve Youngblood]

I am loving Smash 4 right now. I prefer it over Brawl, and Brawl over Melee. And so on. I've been playing Smash since day 1 Smash 64, and do a lot to improve the community. Even on my blog where I write about the smallest unknown games for thousands of words, I typically don't write about Smash because I'm too busy playing it and having fun. I can explain exactly what I see in Smash 4 if you want. It'll probably be better if you focus the inquiry to one aspect.

I wasn't really challenging anybody to defend anything. I too like Smash 4. I think it's a really fun game. And it's a game I can recognize as having a legitimate competitive scene (I say again as someone not really apart of that scene). I want to be clear that I'm not coming at this as part of #TeamMelee #FuckBrawl #FuckSmash4 #FireSakurai. However, I will state that I'm sort of bothered by some statements of Sakurai and people that defend his approach in that I vehemently reject the notion that making a game that appeals to the Melee/Project M people represents a mutually exclusive goal from making a game that appeals to the casual audience. My contention is that the casual audience that is having a blast with 8 player matches and training amiibos and playing Smash Tour and so on neither knows nor cares about any of these nuances. I mean, you start talking about wavedashing and l-cancelling and hit stuns and how DI works and so on and you're just going to get blank stares.

To make a long story short, I don't know if I'm convinced that anything done to the core mechanics of Brawl and 4 have made it any more or less appealing to the mainstream audience at all. As such, arguing that one has to ignore the demands of the tourney crowd because the game will be less appealing to the masses for it largely seems like a non-starter to me. I've argued in the past that I think that if you could somehow magically turn every Brawl copy on the planet into Project M, I bet a great number of people would barely notice that anything has changed, or maybe would notice something but not quite be able to put their finger on it.

The assertion that competitive Brawl or 4 fans are willing to stand up and make the case for these games offering improvements on the formula in terms of the core fighting engine opens up a whole different can of worms. That changes the argument entirely. It becomes less of a disagreement about whether or not you can please hardcore and casual fans simultaneously and an entirely different argument about whether or not the newer games have their own legitimate strengths as competitive fighting games.

 

[Daouzin]

Infinites and grab-chains aren't hand-holding?

We're not talking about "dumb" combos like Marth's fair, fair, fair, fair, dair combo or MKs uair, uair, uair, uair, u-special - both games have these types of "simple" combo strings. I am talking about combos that are all about the prediction game... which exist in Smash Melee or 4.

Yes, but Smash 4 has easier combos like fox low percent uptitls and same for Mario that lead to other free follow ups and hits. I'd also argue those are even easier to land and easier to perform. So let's not cherry pick.

Just calling you out for people that might read your post and don't realize what you're doing.

I wrote this not too long ago. Sorry for the self promotion.

http://www.dailydot.com/geek/smash-bros-masahiro-sakurai-retirement/

tl;dr - bringing in new blood for smash may not be a bad thing.

Cool, I'll check it out and share it on my FB if I dig it.

 

[Vena]

Yes, but Smash 4 has easier combos like fox low percent uptitls and same for Mario that lead to other free follow ups and hits. I'd also argue those are even easier to land and easier to perform. So let's not cherry pick.

Just calling you out for people that might read your post and don't realize what you're doing.

You can't 0-death someone off u-tilts, they are more of what I said: dumb combos. Both games have dumb combos, and both games have easy set-ups.

I'm doing what you're doing, just from the other vantage point.

 

[Daouzin]

You can't 0-death someone off u-tilts, they are more of what I said: dumb combos. Both games have dumb combos, and both games have easy set-ups.

I'm doing what you're doing, just from the other vantage point.

I didn't realize Smash 4 required L Cancels and Wave Dashes to start those combo hits, my bad. That may not add much to "depth," but it does mean it requires more commitment and technical competence, nothing really hand holdy about that. Despite whether needing that stuff is good or bad.

Thus the term, disingenuous.

 

[Shimesaba]

Infinites and grab-chains aren't hand-holding?

We're not talking about "dumb" combos like Marth's fair, fair, fair, fair, dair combo or MKs uair, uair, uair, uair, u-special - both games have these types of "simple" combo strings. I am talking about combos that are all about the prediction game... which exist in Smash Melee or 4.

Long chain grabs make up a pretty small portion of Melee combos, and infinites are even more limited. Add to that that the only characters who get badly chain grabbed by multiple characters are Fox and Falco, and it ends up not hurting competitive play very much.

Honestly, Vena, out of all the chain grabs and infinites that occur in high-level Melee, I'd be surprised if you personally could perform any of them against a smart human opponent except maybe Sheik's dthrow chaingrab on Sheik. They're not as hand-holdy as you think. The infinites are even harder (to set up, for Ice Climbers, or to execute, for Fox).

I'd also point out that "Marth's fair, fair, fair, fair, dair combo" can be DI'd out of, and Melee DI in general makes most of what you're referring to as "dumb" combos trivially escapable.

 

[Vena]

I didn't realize Smash 4 required L Cancels and Wave Dashes to start those combo hits, my bad. That may not add much to "depth," but it does mean it requires more commitment and technical competence, nothing really hand holdy about that. Despite whether needing that stuff is good or bad.

Thus the term, disingenuous.

Hand-holding was about the infinites and grab-chains.

Melee requires contextual buttons presses (L-Cancels), movement control (wavedash), and DI prediction, Sm4sh requires a more prediction oriented game as the hit-stun is lower, movement control (pivoting into starters), and the stronger moves are considerably buffed from before in their launch power/area of effect but you can't cancel their lag. Different strokes and all that jazz.

Long chain grabs make up a pretty small portion of Melee combos, and infinites are even more limited. Add to that that the only characters who get badly chain grabbed by multiple characters are Fox and Falco, and it ends up not hurting competitive play very much.

Honestly, Vena, out of all the chain grabs and infinites that occur in high-level Melee, I'd be surprised if you personally could perform any of them against a smart human opponent except maybe Sheik's dthrow chaingrab on Sheik. They're not as hand-holdy as you think.

You'd be right as I haven't played serious Melee in about four years as I am now considerably busier with lab work and general life. Also when I was talking about chain grabs I was talking about Sheik's, Marth's on the heavies, and the spacies'. These sorts of mechanics are terrible and were worse ever more in Brawl where infinites became brain-dead. I won our first Brawl tourney at college with Falco's stupid d-throw chain into oblivion before even knowing about DDDs infinites.

I'd also point out that "Marth's fair, fair, fair, fair, dair combo" can be DI'd out of, and Melee DI in general makes most of what you're referring to as "dumb" combos trivially escapable.

This is true of all combos, you can escape Sm4sh dumb combos too with proper DI.

 

[KirbyKid]

Were you at MOAST 3 where everyone assumed Ken would win? That was my first out of State tournament.

Edit: Sorry for double posting, didn't realize I just posted.

DUDE!

The D-Krew (the guys who put on MOAST 3)... they're my crew.

I was there helping. I got knocked out at like... 7th place. I almost beat Smiles. Last hit, last game. That was the tourney I took out Wife and Eddy.

I swear I had what it took to challenge the Ken, but I didn't get to play Ken until OC3, which was my first major out of state tournament.

Hopefully you remember "the cape" that was even talked about in the Smash documentary. That cape was made by me (actually my mom sewed it and I drew on the Fire Emblem pattern).

good.

times.

 

[Daouzin]

DUDE!

The D-Krew (the guys who put on MOAST 3)... they're my crew.

I was there helping. I got knocked out at like... 7th place. I almost beat Smiles. Last hit, last game. That was the tourney I took out Wife and Eddy.

I swear I had what it took to challenge the Ken, but I didn't get to play Ken until OC3, which was my first major out of state tournament.

Hopefully you remember "the cape" that was even talked about in the Smash documentary. That cape was made by me (actually my mom sewed it and I drew on the Fire Emblem pattern).

good.

times.

Awesome, yeah, I was a super scrub back then. I almost beat Dark Rain though. I feel bad now lol. If I had beaten him then I could have said I beat Dark Rain at some point.

I did beat Eddy in Ganon Dittos at OC2 though and I did beat HugS at FC (5?) in a $200 money match.

Anyway, yeah I was gonna mention the cape, LOL, that moment was so awkward! I totally remember you by the way, you still played Kirby back then, I want to say and if you are who I think you are I was SUPER impressed.

I used to go by "EnixMoogle" or just "Enix"

This is true of all combos, you can escape Sm4sh dumb combos too with proper DI.

I disagree, low low percent combos will work unless I'm doing something terribly wrong or I'm just playing laggy For Glory too much. A lot of 0-35% combos on characters and for heavier characters like 0-45-50% combos. I think those are super CHEESY and just wish they required some technical competence to perform.

 

[Metal B]

No. You're conflating "competitiveness" and "being complicated". Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVL4st0blGU

Just because you add more features to a game doesn't automatically make it more "competitive" or more "deep". To see gauge the true life value of its competitiveness, look to see which game the actual competitive players are playing. It's not Spock Lizard. They're holding $10,000 tournaments for Stone/Paper/Scissors.

The fact that you're using this game as an example shows your misunderstanding of the situation and of what competitive players actually want. Melee isn't analogous to Spock/Lizard. Melee is Stone/Paper/Scissors - a game with a simple ruleset that anyone can understand, but which also contains a metagame that attracts competitive players too.

Thank you for agreeing with me.
The big problem of some stubborn hardcore Melee- or PM-Fans is, that they think they play "Stone, Paper, Scissors, Spock, Lizard" or that this kind of game would be better. In return they look down on Brawl and SSB4 as "only" being "Stone, Paper, Scissors". Let's not forget, why i even brought up this example. Many people think, that being more competitive means bring more complexity into a game. But it isn't actually necessary, if you design your game smarty and create interesting variables, differences in characters and multi-option solution, you can get a competitive with depth too.
Iwata recently mentioned, that he was impressed from a quote of Miayamoto. He said, that the best solution is the one, which solves many problems at once. This is the key of depth over complexity.

But if you go for a heavy competitive focus game, it is actually ok to become a little more "Stone, Paper, Scissors, Spock, Lizard" and include complexity. You pretty much create even more hidden depth as challenge for the community or an single player to overcome, learn and master. Like learning or figuring out combos or key-combinations. So they can rang them self in tiers and the meta-game lives even longer.
Lez for example was a really complex game with many strange and difficult puzzles (hidden behind a very simple looking platformer). Understanding and solving the complexity of the puzzle was a different kind of hidden challenge.

Um...good? That's the point of a game - to have fun - regardless of the origin of that fun. Combos in Street Fighter were originally an unintended glitch, too.

This wasn't a critic, it was the reason Melee works in an unintentional way. It's an anomaly. But this wasn't the vision of Sakruai, which why he sees Melee as failure. Nobody, especially not Sakruai, say, fans can't have fun with Melee this way. Like a movie can be interpreted in a different way, then the director intended it to be. But if the director wanted to think people in specif way and it didn't work, he should have the artistic freedom to try it again. But in this example the fans of the first movie are actually angry about it, since they want a sequel to the first movie. This is the situation right now.

Sakurai, in terms of game content and aesthetics, knew what made Smash good and he improved on that. However, in terms of gameplay and gameplay depth, he did not understand, and started on a path of making it worse because he doesn't understand that accessibility for a casual audience, and gameplay depth for a hardcore audience are not mutually exclusive gaming goals

Here we have opposite opinions. I actually argue, that there is a difference between designing a game for a casual, a hardcore audience and especially a synopses of both.
You can do different things with a hardcore audiences and be much more challenging with them. At the same time you have to make game accessible for casual players, but not be to dump down. Dwarf Fortress will never be a casual game, unless you take steps away from the hardcore audiences. While Hardcore Games are bored of the first levels of a New Super Mario Bros Game. You can't make a game for everybody, or you make a game for nobody. This is why Smash Bros will never go ultra hardcore and still needs a casual player to understand some basics.

I'm not sure I understand how you are using SF4 in this comparison.

Street Fighter 4 was actually the long waited commercial and public success of the series, after being in limbo for some time. Here an examble:

Capcom stalled. It released Street Fighter Zero (aka Alpha), originally billed as a game taking place in between Street Fighter 1 and 2, and then released a semi-sequel, Street Fighter Zero 2, and finally released a slightly enhanced Street Fighter Zero 2 Alpha in Japan only. By now, Capcom's audience was drifting away, and Japanese game masters were turning to the 3-D Virtua Fighter and especially Virtua Fighter 2 in droves. Many American players were playing Mortal Kombat 2 or were getting bored of fighting games.

A truly awful Street Fighter movie, a horrid Street Fighter: The Movie home and arcade game, cheesy action figures, endless SF3 stalls and other generally foolhardy licensing moves had eroded the natural optimism people had once felt for Capcom products. And the company had to deal with monumental overstock problems when hundreds of thousands of copies of its fourth SF2 home game, Super SF2 (following SNES SF2, Genesis SF2: Turbo, SNES SF2: Turbo), failed to sell.

Street Fighter III was finally announced, and it was initially described as a 2-D sequel using brand new Capcom CPS3 hardware, whereas another title, Street Fighter EX, would be a 3-D Street Fighter game running on PlayStation-compatible arcade hardware. Street Fighter EX arrived in arcades first and bombed; it was less a 3-D fighting game than a 2-D fighting game with 3-D character artwork,
screenshot Guile vs. Doctrine Dark in Street Fighter EX and its new characters paled in comparison to the classic fighters readied for Street Fighter II's debut. This was Capcom's second Street Fighter arcade game bomb, following the disastrous release of Street Fighter: The Movie, and the company hurried to assure arcade owners and players that a more complete version - Street Fighter EX Plus - would be released in arcades soon.

- Gamespot

Many reasons, yes, that have nothing to do with the gameplay (an important feature in a game).

And this isn't always important, if you want to become the dominant force in a community. People play Street Fighter 4 not only because it is a good game. Many people are into it, which also means more price money, tournaments, advertising and fame. There was once the conspiracy going around, that high-level Melee players actually sabotage Brawl and SSB4, because of the fear of getting trumped in a new game and then more people investing in the new ones. Some top players actually life from playing the games. It can be a scary through losing there status and job.
Of course, its only a stupid theory. But losing dominance is always a reason, why people are getting over protective about there competitive games (just look at all the Sport Organisations)

 

[Daouzin]

Of course, its only a stupid theory. But losing dominance is always a reason, why people are getting over protective about there competitive games (just look at all the Sport Organisations)

Yeah, that's a really dumb theory, just casuals coming up with excuses because the serious players don't accept their game, immediately.

It's hard to craft a good game and harder to balance one. The community shouldn't just accept every game they are given. They should have standards.

 

[Vena]

I disagree, low low percent combos will work unless I'm doing something terribly wrong or I'm just playing laggy For Glory too much. A lot of 0-35% combos on characters and for heavier characters like 0-45-50% combos. I think those are super CHEESY and just wish they required some technical competence to perform.

True combos are true combos, they've existed since N64. In fact were incredibly worse back then. Dumb combos, if you look back to my reference, are about the uair/fair/whateverair combo strings.

L-Cancels don't make them any less cheesy because L-Canceling is a stupid mechanic as I've said before.

 

[Valus]

Smash 4 is very enjoyable. If Sakurai wants to direct the next one, then yes I think he should. If he doesn't, then no, I don't think he should.

 

[Metal B]

Yeah, that's a really dumb theory, just casuals coming up with excuses because the serious players don't accept their game, immediately.

The theory is an extreme, but there is still a true to it of people being afraid of change and losing power. This is the only exploitation i have, why the Smash Community is still holding on Melee and its mechanics.

It's hard to craft a good game and harder to balance one. The community shouldn't just accept every game they are given. They should have standards.

The problem for many is the overall negative and aggressive behavior of the Smash community. They were the laughing stock of the internet before the documentary and now they starting to become it again. There is a difference between being skeptical and out right negative.

I think, you also asked for something about "Glory Mode is for the Japanese Community" point. I found this, in a thread about the Japanese Brawl Tier-List:

Stagelist:
Final Destination
SmashVille
Battlefield

Reason for this
------------------------------
Japan believes that neutrals are prime because nothing out of the ordinary or transitional happens. It is also been this way since Brawl came out in Japan.

http://smashboards.com/threads/japanese-tier-list.316518/

It isn't perfect, but shows the mindset of the Japanese player a little.

 

[Daouzin]

A prime example of the Melee toy box allowing you to use moves however you like that doesn't apply to Smash 4's more defined move set.

http://www.gfycat.com/DiligentBronzeFalcon

True combos are true combos, they've existed since N64. In fact were incredibly worse back then. Dumb combos, if you look back to my reference, are about the uair/fair/whateverair combo strings.

L-Cancels don't make them any less cheesy because L-Canceling is a stupid mechanic as I've said before.

That's fine if you feel that way, I disagree and I feel a lot more comfortable knowing the combo can be messed up and If I DI a certain way the L cancel timing can change just enough to make a mistake possible.

The theory is an extreme, but there is still a true to it of people being afraid of change and losing power. This is the only explanation i have, why the Smash Community is still holding on Melee and its mechanics.

That's disheartening.

So you don't believe people when they say that Melee and PM feel a lot more fluid to them and they are in love with that feeling? You think something insidious is to blame instead?

I think, you also asked for something about "Glory Mode is for the Japanese Community" point. I found this, in a thread about the Japanese Brawl Tier-List:

http://smashboards.com/threads/japanese-tier-list.316518/

It isn't perfect, but shows the mindset of the Japanese player a little.

I don't know enough about Brawl to know if that makes sense or not, but if Brawl was the start of it, I can see why I didn't know about it, thanks. I'll check it out.

-----

Seriously, everyone has to watch this, it's beautiful. I don't think people can say precision and competence is NOT required for this combo. If this is landed on me in tournament, I don't care. I handshake the man and I give him a tear of respect.

http://www.gfycat.com/DiligentBronzeFalcon

 

[Guest12345678]

The theory is an extreme, but there is still a true to it of people being afraid of change and losing power. This is the only exploitation i have, why the Smash Community is still holding on Melee and its mechanics.

The problem for many is the overall negative and aggressive behavior of the Smash community. They were the laughing stock of the internet before the documentary and now they starting to become it again. There is a difference between being skeptical and out right negative.

Maybe I'm interpreting you wrong, but are you saying the only reason you have for melee players hanging on to it, is because they are afraid of change. That makes no sense when 2014 has been the biggest year for melee tournaments and it has experienced a lot of growth. Also I don't see a problem with being negative about a game you don't like.

 

[Metal B]

So you don't believe people we they say that Melee and PM feel a lot more fluid to them and they are in love with that feeling? You think something insidious is to blame instead?

This isn't about having fun with a game and not liking another game, this is about discouraging new players, not helping building up a game of a series, you supposed to love and should be part of the same community, being overall negative and being disrespectful to the person, creating your favorite game-series. You don't have to agree with Sakruai, but there is some unnecessary bad blood between the two fronts. After the Smash Invitational one players said, that she is afraid Nintendo is going to take away PM and dissed the new game openly. Those are my problem with the community.

 

[KirbyKid]

I wasn't really challenging anybody to defend anything. I too like Smash 4. I think it's a really fun game. And it's a game I can recognize as having a legitimate competitive scene (I say again as someone not really apart of that scene). I want to be clear that I'm not coming at this as part of #TeamMelee #FuckBrawl #FuckSmash4 #FireSakurai. However, I will state that I'm sort of bothered by some statements of Sakurai and people that defend his approach in that I vehemently reject the notion that making a game that appeals to the Melee/Project M people represents a mutually exclusive goal from making a game that appeals to the casual audience. My contention is that the casual audience that is having a blast with 8 player matches and training amiibos and playing Smash Tour and so on neither knows nor cares about any of these nuances. I mean, you start talking about wavedashing and l-cancelling and hit stuns and how DI works and so on and you're just going to get blank stares.

To make a long story short, I don't know if I'm convinced that anything done to the core mechanics of Brawl and 4 have made it any more or less appealing to the mainstream audience at all. As such, arguing that one has to ignore the demands of the tourney crowd because the game will be less appealing to the masses for it largely seems like a non-starter to me. I've argued in the past that I think that if you could somehow magically turn every Brawl copy on the planet into Project M, I bet a great number of people would barely notice that anything has changed, or maybe would notice something but not quite be able to put their finger on it.

The assertion that competitive Brawl or 4 fans are willing to stand up and make the case for these games offering improvements on the formula in terms of the core fighting engine opens up a whole different can of worms. That changes the argument entirely. It becomes less of a disagreement about whether or not you can please hardcore and casual fans simultaneously and an entirely different argument about whether or not the newer games have their own legitimate strengths as competitive fighting games.

I really like what you're driving at here. Lots of interesting, but complex thoughts. Unfortunately, I think it's too complex. Whole conversations can be had over what players feel and why and what they ask for in return. I've done a LOT of interviews and surveys on Smash over the years. I make a point to talk to veteran and new players to see what they really think at tournaments, conventions, and when I randomly see people playing Smash. I feel like from those inquiries I have a really good sense of the true diversity of competitive and casual players.

I think we too often talk about the complacent casual player and the already-pro-competitive player dichotomy. In other words, the casuals are so content playing "crazy" smash that... 1) they will never dig into its depth and 2) they won't notice when subtle or "deep" things are changed. This is a very ineffective way of thinking about casual smashers. Keep in mind that there are a lot of them. A lot of them who know nothing of competitive smash, and a lot who run the spectrum up to tournament competency. It may seem odd to consider a tournament player as a casual, but based on my interviews, even players with a lot of skill don't' necessarily have the time/drive to truly compete, but they love following the scene in various (sometimes casual) ways.

TLDR: Smashers are incredibly diverse. This fact should force us to reevaluate what "accessible" and "skill gap" really mean. Honestly, if being casual vs competitive is mostly an attitude thing, then players switch back and forth all the time. I officially retired from melee in 2007, but then I picked it back up again every now and then for tournaments like UFGTX (2014). I also played melee off and on over the years with friends. So... a new way to think about accessible design is creating a game where competitive and casuals are playing the same "game" so that the basic evaluative measure casual use to play casually can apply to understanding higher level play. In other words, less about invisible tech that more about thoughtful application. I know this may be oversimplifying it and there are limits to such an approach. There's more to say here, but it takes a lot to explain it. So I'll move on for now.

With that said, there's more diversity to tournament/competitive smashers than many in this thread give credit for. There are plenty of people, like me, who had a lot of gripes about Melee even when it was all we had. Half the time we buckle down and fight through it. Sometimes we walk away. What I like the most about melee isn't the wavedashing and L-canceling. Rather, it's the subtly of move complexity and the footsies game, which doesn't really exist if the skill/tier/matchup gap is too big. Since I mained Kirby, I found the most interesting matches (at various points in the metagame) were against Peach and Samus. But these moments didn't last. I got out classed by almost everyone at OC3 and I longed for a game that was designed or balanced in a way that focused on the parts of Melee I liked the most.

Competitive players all put up with various gripes even with their favorite games. But I've learned that there's more to Smash, Fighting games, and game design than what I learned from Melee. Since Melee, I've studied Street Fighter and Marvel and some of the oddest fighting games you can imagine. Then I made one (BaraBariBall). Now I understand the versatility of design for the genre much better. I can articulate what I don't like about L-canceling and what I do like about it. And I can even design a game that tries to divide the good from the bad (my opinion of course) to produce new results.

So, I'd rather move away from talking about pleasing fans and focus on the design parts of this complex issue.

 

[JoeInky]

A prime example of the Melee toy box allowing you to use moves however you like that doesn't apply to Smash 4's more defined move set.

http://www.gfycat.com/DiligentBronzeFalcon

This is the sort of stuff I miss really. Crazy hype moments are incredibly rare in Smash 4 for me, especially when I'm on a Ganondorf binge. And the combos or reads that people do do in Smash 4 aren't that interesting because that's usually the only option they had, good read or not, if the only option they have to continue to "string" is that one move every time, all the time, then it's not really exciting to watch.

I mean just for Ganondorf alone, there's very little I can do in terms of cool/fun followups unless the other person is absolute shite.
No DAir tech chases or FAir approaching due to high lag, no more Flame Choke strings due to the fact that it can now be teched, no more offstage edgeguards with wizards foot because you don't get a second jump back, and I swear his Utilt is incredibly bad as an edgeguard so I have no idea what the use of it is supposed to be.


Maybe my opinion of Smash 4 is sullied because my main is trash tier, but the game just feels so limited and boring when I play as well as when I watch any Smash 4.


E: I would probably enjoy Smash 4 a heck of a lot more if Wizard's Foot gave you your second jump back again actually, I mean, they massively buffed most other characters recoveries.

 

[GenG3000]

This is the sort of stuff I miss really. Crazy hype moments are incredibly rare in Smash 4 for me, especially when I'm on a Ganondorf binge. And the combos or reads that people do do in Smash 4 aren't that interesting because that's usually the only option they had, good read or not, if the only option they have to continue to "string" is that one move every time, all the time, then it's not really exciting to watch.

I mean just for Ganondorf alone, there's very little I can do in terms of cool/fun followups unless the other person is absolute shite.
No DAir tech chases or FAir approaching due to high lag, no more Flame Choke strings due to the fact that it can now be teched, no more offstage edgeguards with wizards foot because you don't get a second jump back, and I swear his Utilt is incredibly bad as an edgeguard so I have no idea what the use of it is supposed to be.


Maybe my opinion of Smash 4 is sullied because my main is trash tier, but the game just feels so limited and boring when I play as well as when I watch any Smash 4.


E: I would probably enjoy Smash 4 a heck of a lot more if Wizard's Foot gave you your second jump back again actually, I mean, they massively buffed most other characters recoveries.

Ganondorf can edgeguard with down B both horizontally and vertically. You can return to the ledge after any of the two.

At 60% or so and depending in which part of the attack hits you can uAir after a horizontal dB edgeguard and send the enemy to the blastzone. I see my brother do it all the time in For Glory.

Ganondorf's spikes and sB reads ending in side Smash are always cool.

 

[JoeInky]

Ganondorf can edgeguard with down B both horizontally and vertically. You can return to the ledge after any of the two.

At 60% or so and depending in with part of the attack hits you can uAir after a horizontal dB edgeguard and send the enemy to the blastzone. I see my brother do it all the time in For Glory.

Ganondorf's spikes and sB reads ending in side Smash are always cool.

Yeah but you can't go as deep with it compared to in Melee/Project M, it's just much better. If custom moves were allowed I'd be able to use Wizard's Dropkick which is probably the best version of his DownB ever but nope, no custom moves allowed guys.

I think the only thing that is good is Flame Choke into a reverse FSmash for the roll punish as you said, but it's not really hype. Nor is ledge cancelled Wizard's Foot into UAir imo.

E: And Ganon has even been made worse with the removal of DACUS from Smash 4 which is a shame seeing as his USmash is actually quite good. I guess they reduced the landing lag on his aerials slightly though.

 

[Metal B]

[...]
Competitive players all put up with various gripes even with their favorite games. But I've learned that there's more to Smash, Fighting games, and game design than what I learned from Melee. Since Melee, I've studied Street Fighter and Marvel and some of the oddest fighting games you can imagine. Then I made one (BaraBariBall). Now I understand the versatility of design for the genre much better. I can articulate what I don't like about L-canceling and what I do like about it. And I can even design a game that tries to divide the good from the bad (my opinion of course) to produce new results.

So, I'd rather move away from talking about pleasing fans and focus on the design parts of this complex issue.

Great post.

Still tell me, how the heck can L-canceling have a positive attitude? Except it being a Better-Not-Fail-Me-Button?

I mean just for Ganondorf alone, there's very little I can do in terms of cool/fun followups unless the other person is absolute shite.

I guess, Ganondorf is supposed to be a One-Hit-Wonder. All of his move hurt and hit hard, but you really need to get the a right read to land them.

 

[Christopher]

Why can't the 1 player mode feel like a fleshed out Melee fun and light without the seriousness of brawl

 

[JoeInky]

Great post.

Still tell me, how the heck can L-canceling have a positive attitude? Except it being a Better-Not-Fail-Me-Button?

It has a positive affect on Melee's combo system in that it's a lot more freeform and you get really creative stuff compared to Smash 4 due to l-cancelling.

You can also mess up peoples L-Cancel timing with different shield timings.

Not really positives of needing to press a button to do it, but the effects of it were positive.


I would still rather they made something else in place of L-Cancelling that achieved the same affect rather than outright removing it for apparently no reason (or atleast no reasons that were outside of the technical barrier).

I guess, Ganondorf is supposed to be a One-Hit-Wonder. All of his move hurt and hit hard, but you really need to get the a right read to land them.

Ganondorf was always more of a hard punish character, he combos easily but once he gets a good read on you he can start piling on good damage with a good set of tech chases.

Now his tech chasing is awful, you get barely anything off a punish due to few combo opportunities as well as my previous point and he becomes a character almost entirely about super hard reads against any moderately fast character because he can't punish on reaction with his slow startup moves or his awful grab range.

Seriously fuck everything about his grab. Awful range, awful pummel and his throws are just shit. He can apparently shove his palm into people's faces from 2 meters away and yet suddenly he has T-Rex syndrome when he tries to grab someone at nose length.

 

[Daouzin]

This is the sort of stuff I miss really. Crazy hype moments are incredibly rare in Smash 4 for me, especially when I'm on a Ganondorf binge. And the combos or reads that people do do in Smash 4 aren't that interesting because that's usually the only option they had, good read or not, if the only option they have to continue to "string" is that one move every time, all the time, then it's not really exciting to watch.

I mean just for Ganondorf alone, there's very little I can do in terms of cool/fun followups unless the other person is absolute shite.
No DAir tech chases or FAir approaching due to high lag, no more Flame Choke strings due to the fact that it can now be teched, no more offstage edgeguards with wizards foot because you don't get a second jump back, and I swear his Utilt is incredibly bad as an edgeguard so I have no idea what the use of it is supposed to be.


Maybe my opinion of Smash 4 is sullied because my main is trash tier, but the game just feels so limited and boring when I play as well as when I watch any Smash 4.


E: I would probably enjoy Smash 4 a heck of a lot more if Wizard's Foot gave you your second jump back again actually, I mean, they massively buffed most other characters recoveries.

Yeah, I feel your pain my main in Melee and PM was Ganon. I immediately dropped him in Smash 4 because his UP B got nerfed. I loved UP B-ing people out of shield, but now forward B is just a better option 100% of the time.

The whole not getting your jump back is hyper offensive, but I'm actually more offended by the UP B not having further knock back, that's how much I loved pulling off UP B mind games in Melee and PM.

I played against a good Japanese Ganon in For Glory, kept doing Ganon Dittos against him to learn how to play Ganon, learned a bunch of cool tricks like Down B cancels when you go off a ledge and forward B is the easiest mix up ever, basically. I even let my win percentage drop like 5% against him. I was just trying to absorb as much as I could since I have 10 years of Ganon experience to work past in addition to learning new Ganon.

tldr: Ganon is unplayable in Smash 4, IMO. The Ganon player I'm praising right here got 2 stocked by my Sonic in 40 seconds.

http://instagram.com/p/xYJytuDSrF/?modal=true

It has a positive affect on Melee's combo system in that it's a lot more freeform and you get really creative stuff compared to Smash 4 due to l-cancelling.

You can also mess up peoples L-Cancel timing with different shield timings.

Not really positives of needing to press a button to do it, but the effects of it were positive.

I would still rather they made something else in place of L-Cancelling that achieved the same affect rather than outright removing it for apparently no reason (or atleast no reasons that were outside of the technical barrier).

Yup

 

[A Link to the Past]

Great post.

Still tell me, how the heck can L-canceling have a positive attitude? Except it being a Better-Not-Fail-Me-Button?


I guess, Ganondorf is supposed to be a One-Hit-Wonder. All of his move hurt and hit hard, but you really need to get the a right read to land them.

As people have pointed out, a lot of games have L-Canceling equivalents. Shit, why do Marth or Roy have their Sword Dance thingy? Once you learn how to do it, you usually won't want to not do it when you do do it. Or in SMRPG there is never going to be a point in the game where you don't want to time your attacks.

 

[JoeInky]

tldr: Ganon is unplayable in Smash 4, IMO. The Ganon player I'm praising right here got 2 stocked by my Sonic in 40 seconds.

http://instagram.com/p/xYJytuDSrF/?modal=true

Exactly, Ganon has always been easy to combo but usually once he has you, you're looking at 50% damage right there from a good tech chase string and a possible death in another hit or two.


But now he's just an automatic lose against fast characters, easy to combo, gets nothing off of a punish due to a lack of good tech chase or combo options and it's even harder for him to get a punish in the first place due to slow startup on all of his moves and an awful grab.



Pretty much all the characters I like and used to play suck in this game. Falco, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf.

Atleast Ness is good but he's getting a bit too popular for my liking for me to want to play him all the time.

 

[Metal B]

It has a positive affect on Melee's combo system in that it's a lot more freeform and you get really creative stuff compared to Smash 4 due to l-cancelling.

You can also mess up peoples L-Cancel timing with different shield timings.

Not really positives of needing to press a button to do it, but the effects of it were positive.

Is it really more freedom? There are basic only two forms of landing lag, the full and the half. So if you would always have the half, there would be no differences in the combo game. That's why, i called it the "Better-Not-Fail-Me-Button". It was a positive effect in the beginning, know it is about the very few moment, where players fail the button press and are in a bad situation. There is never a reason not to L-Cancelling, which doesn't make it a choice and therefore busywork.

I know, that people just want reduced end lag and a higher game-speed, but the original L-Canceling as a mechanic is completely unnecessary.

I would still rather they made something else in place of L-Cancelling that achieved the same affect rather than outright removing it for apparently no reason (or atleast no reasons that were outside of the technical barrier).

A simple idea would be, that L-Canceling is weakening your shield. At least then you have a reason, not to use it all the time and it becomes actually a risk and an choice (or just through it out completely, which was the best option.).

 

[A Link to the Past]

Is Little Mac bottom-tier yet, by the way?

 

[JoeInky]

Is it really more freedom? There are basic only two forms of landing lag, the full and the half. So if you would always have the half, there would be no differences in the combo game. That's why, i called it the "Better-Not-Fail-Me-Button". It was a positive effect in the beginning, know it is about the very few moment, where players fail the button press and are in a bad situation. There is never a reason not to L-Cancelling, which doesn't make it a choice and therefore busywork.

I know, that people just want reduced end lag and a higher game-speed, but the original L-Canceling as a mechanic is completely unnecessary.


A simple idea would be, that L-Canceling is weakening your shield. At least then you have a reason, not to use it all the time and it becomes actually a risk and an choice (or just through it out completely, which was the best option.).

Well, yeah, I said the effects of it were positive, not that the technical barrier necessarily was.

And Melee's combo system is a lot more freeform, it opens up more moves for you to use in strings and combos because you're not tied down to only one or possibly two moves. It gives you options and allows you to have more of your own style with your character in how you approach approaching(heh) or what your punish game is.

In Smash4 I can't for example use Ganon's DAir as a pressure tool, yeah it pushes people back n shield but the only way it auto cancels is if you do it from a full jump which means that the hitbox will miss 90% of the cast and if I do it from a short hop then that means I'll be punished 100% of the time/won't be able to followup if it does hit because of the landing lag. It's basically a move limited to offstage only whereas before it was a tech chase option and an offstage option.


The simplest way to replace L-Cancelling would be to just reduce landing lag in general, or make it auto cancel on hit. There are many ways to go around it without outright stripping one of the things that contributed towards making Melee so much fun to play.

 

[ito007]

Can anyone direct me to this complaints thread? I want to check out what the fuss is about

 

[Vena]

The simplest way to replace L-Cancelling would be to just reduce landing lag in general, or make it auto cancel on hit. There are many ways to go around it without outright stripping one of the things that contributed towards making Melee so much fun to play.

I don't think any Smash game would work without wavedashing to counterbalance SHFFLCA, especially if you speed it up... without devolving into N64 Pikachu vs. Kirby.

Smashboards did tests with just Smooth Lander, and the game went ultra-regressive because offense became ultra-aggressive and hard to work out of from the defender's point of view.

 

[Metal B]

And Melee's combo system is a lot more freeform, it opens up more moves for you to use in strings and combos because you're not tied down to only one or possibly two moves. It gives you options and allows you to have more of your own style with your character in how you approach approaching(heh) or what your punish game is.

The simplest way to replace L-Cancelling would be to just reduce landing lag in general, or make it auto cancel on hit. There are many ways to go around it without outright stripping one of the things that contributed towards making Melee so much fun to play.

I guess, the developers here tried to more limited the freeform of the characters. The main problem in Melee is that the combo-mechanic helps Offensive- and Rushdown-characters so much, that all the other character-types can't keep up, which creates a domination of those in-game. Brawl and SSB4 looks so much more defensive, since the defensive-character-types can now actually face them.

Smash is about a variate of characters. 51 Characters is a lot and it is really hard to balance all of them. I guess, the developers took some of the freeform of the characters to get them more manageable. This means it is a little harder to create your own style and you get much more forced into the predefined idea of them. In the same time the developers can now actually balance the characters out, since they have more control over them. That's why i believe, why momentum needed to go. If you exactly know, how far a character can jump, you can form his Aerial around it.

I pretty much understand, why many people don't like this "cage". But it make sense, why Sakruai can't go back. The gameplay is one of the feature of the product, the other important factor are the characters. The Smash Series can't go back to the Melee-Mechanic and be balance without losing some characters. If there would be only 20 characters again, hell would break lose in the fandom.

 

[ec0ec0]

Can anyone direct me to this complaints thread? I want to check out what the fuss is about

are you asking about this thread?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=965999&highlight=smash+wiiu

 

[A Link to the Past]

Why not just design it to make characters like Bowser and Ganondorf really good at punishing the rushdown characters?

 

[JoeInky]

I guess, the developers here tried to more limited the freeform of the characters. The main problem in Melee is that the combo-mechanic helps Offensive- and Rushdown-characters so much, that all the other character-types can't keep up, which creates a domination of those in-game. Brawl and SSB4 looks so much more defensive, since the defensive-character-types can now actually face them.

I don't think this is true honestly.

I mean, have you ever tried playing Ganondorf against a competent duck hunt player or someone like ZSS/Luigi who have so little lag to the point that you can't even punish them, even if you pretty much know exactly what they're going to do but your moves are so limited that you can't do anything about it?

 

[Daouzin]

The Smash Series can't go back to the Melee-Mechanic and be balance without losing some characters. If there would be only 20 characters again, hell would break lose in the fandom.

I don't believe this since PM handles this problem pretty well. I imagine it's a lot harder and will require tweaking and patches, but I think that's fine. PM patches make me interested in playing PM again every time they get released. Not that I went very long without playing it, but my interest gets peaked every time.

It's killing me that Ganon got all these buffs and I'm not allowing myself to play it until March.

I don't think this is true honestly.

I mean, have you ever tried playing Ganondorf against a competent duck hunt player or someone like ZSS/Luigi who have so little lag to the point that you can't even punish them, even if you pretty much know exactly what they're going to do but your moves are so limited that you can't do anything about it?

True, Melee Ganon would have a lot more options especially with platforms available. That's another big problem with Smash 4 For Glory, Villagers can camp and fly around for hours. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but if I encounter that my first match it makes me want to play Melee, instantly.

Haha.

 

[JoeInky]

True, Melee Ganon would have a lot more options especially with platforms available. That's another big problem with Smash 4 For Glory, Villagers can camp and fly around for hours. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but if I encounter that my first match it makes me want to play Melee, instantly.

Haha.

Have you played Shamrock's Mii Brawler?

I already fucking despise Mii's but when I play as Ganon against it and he does starts doing that flip kick around the stage with me unable to do anything to him for a good 20 seconds when he gets bored and starts going on the offense, it just makes me want to turn the game off.


It's the one instance where I have some semblance of relief that custom moves are badly implemented, because it means there's less of a chance of me ever having to see the Mii characters online/at a tournament.

 

[ec0ec0]

[...]

You have already expressed this idea multiple times. Instead of changing the engine (physics and such), they could have centered the balancing in the characters. You can redesign a character that doesn't work in your engine. In fact, one of the reasons why it would probably take a lot of work to move smash bros back to melee is because we have had two games where characters were designed in a really different environment.

Also, smash is a platform based fighting game. You need great natural feeling physics for it to be fun. Removing momentum conservation because of balance wouldn't be a very good idea.

 

[Vena]

Also, smash is a platform based fighting game. You need great natural feeling physics for it to be fun. Removing momentum conservation because of balance wouldn't be a very good idea.

I mean... you say this but there's nothing "natural" to the feel of Melee on the ground.

 

[ec0ec0]

I mean... you say this but there's nothing "natural" to the feel of Melee on the ground.

but what do you think about momentum conservation? isn't that appropriate for a game like smash bros!?

edit: being used to mario games, momentum is something that i'd consider natural to expect in a nintendo platformer. But then we have kirby games...

 

[Metal B]

I don't believe this since PM handles this problem pretty well. I imagine it's a lot harder and will require tweaking and patches, but I think that's fine. PM patches make me interested in playing PM again every time they get released. Not that I went very long without playing it, but my interest gets peaked every time.

Because PM doesn't cost anybody money, they have no schedule and they build on the work of others. PM is in work since 2011. Nintendo needed to develop the complete game in three years including the concept phase. So there is a big difference.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Because PM doesn't cost anybody money, they have no schedule and they build on the work of others. PM is in work since 2011. Nintendo needed to develop the complete game in three years including the concept phase. So there is a big difference.

In the end though, "it costs too much to create good balance" isn't a valid criticism against poor balance.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Have you played Shamrock's Mii Brawler?

I already fucking despise Mii's but when I play as Ganon against it and he does starts doing that flip kick around the stage with me unable to do anything to him for a good 20 seconds when he gets bored and starts going on the offense, it just makes me want to turn the game off.


It's the one instance where I have some semblance of relief that custom moves are badly implemented, because it means there's less of a chance of me ever having to see the Mii characters online/at a tournament.

<3

 

[woodland]

Because PM doesn't cost anybody money, they have no schedule and they build on the work of others. PM is in work since 2011. Nintendo needed to develop the complete game in three years including the concept phase. So there is a big difference.

Nintendo has a LOT more funding and the people working on the game put in way more hours than PM, guaranteed.

 

[KirbyKid]

Great post.

Still tell me, how the heck can L-canceling have a positive attitude? Except it being a Better-Not-Fail-Me-Button?

Positive attitude? or explain the positives I see in it? Some of the positives are being able to do something actively to move faster. People love speed.

Video games are inherently interactive systems where we are challenged to do things each and every time without fail. You never want to fall into a pit in Mario. So every pit you find you'll want to jump over it. If you fail, you die. It's not strange or crazy that L-canceling doesn't have much in ways of weighted decision making.

You're right in that there's almost no reason to L-cancel. Yes it does increase the dexterity skill to a point where it's a barrier to most. Yes it does make some characters more powerful than others.

It has a positive affect on Melee's combo system in that it's a lot more freeform and you get really creative stuff compared to Smash 4 due to l-cancelling.

You can also mess up peoples L-Cancel timing with different shield timings.

I would still rather they made something else in place of L-Cancelling that achieved the same affect rather than outright removing it for apparently no reason (or atleast no reasons that were outside of the technical barrier).

Freeform has its pros and cons. I don't like the idea of using just about any air move you have and l-canceling to stay safe. More specifically, I perfer that each move has distinct pros and cons. With roughly 35 moves per character and ~50 characters, it makes sense to distribute along these factors.

damage
hitstun
shield stun
shield push
start up speed
active frames
recovery frames
aerial recovery animation
and landing lag.

Messing with people's L-cancel timings is neat but very subtle, pretty nuanced, and not an effective counter overall.

And in Smash 4 there are some character and plenty of moves that are L-cancel fast. Sheik, Mii Brawler, Mario, and many others have moves that are great for the kind of low-landing-lag approach you're talking about. I think it's great that there is diversity in this way.

Well, yeah, I said the effects of it were positive, not that the technical barrier necessarily was.

And Melee's combo system is a lot more freeform, it opens up more moves for you to use in strings and combos because you're not tied down to only one or possibly two moves. It gives you options and allows you to have more of your own style with your character in how you approach approaching(heh) or what your punish game is.

For me, L-canceling made melee air attacks far too powerful. So powerful that most of the game is played around them. Grounded moves are used less (which is to say that there's less of a ground game) and special moves are used even less unless they cancel like aerials.

Why use Mario's fireballs when you can dash around and use aerials that string into more moves fairly easily?

There's a lot Project M had to do to make specials and med-low tier characters more viable in a world where they refused to nerf the melee tiers. Basically they made every character in the game more like Fox. More speed. Faster aerials. And specials that are faster or cancel.

Speed is a very difficult thing to balance in games. When you add a speedy mechanic like L-canceling, it's like you add a race in your design space where everything else has to catch up.

 

[ito007]

are you asking about this thread?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=965999&highlight=smash+wiiu

Thanks!

 

[GenG3000]

Ganondorf is far from unplayable. He has quick and large attacks to keep others in check in close range, and since each attack for each character has very specific values in range and pre/after lag, you can outrange fast characters even if they do have little lag. He may have problems against characters like Sonic or Zero Suit but he can body like 2/3 of the cast with power, range and mixups. Jab, dtilt, ftilt, usmash, uair, bair, fair, sideb and downb are his bread and butter. Dair is more situational than ever but is a guaranteed KO as a offstage spike, even at 0%.

For me, is characters like Mr. Game & Watch and Ike that fit better as unplayable. Mr. G&W has nothing going for him apart from the dthrow > Judgment combo and Ike is like Ganondorf but much worse, with slower hits and lack of safe options so he's very easy to read.

 

[KirbyKid]

Have you played Shamrock's Mii Brawler?

I already fucking despise Mii's but when I play as Ganon against it and he does starts doing that flip kick around the stage with me unable to do anything to him for a good 20 seconds when he gets bored and starts going on the offense, it just makes me want to turn the game off.


It's the one instance where I have some semblance of relief that custom moves are badly implemented, because it means there's less of a chance of me ever having to see the Mii characters online/at a tournament.

This sounds like a combination of a bad matchup and a lot of inexperience. It's pretty clear that as we're learning a game there will be times when some strategies seem pretty unbeatable. Then we learn about something new or how to refine something else and the options open back up.

Still, just like in Melee and Brawl, some characters are better at running away from others. Mewtwo, Falco, Fox, and many other characters can run away from Kirby just like how you described the Mii fighter Gdorf match up. In Brawl, Sonic can play keep away from Ice Climbers on FD.

I don't think this is true honestly.

I mean, have you ever tried playing Ganondorf against a competent duck hunt player or someone like ZSS/Luigi who have so little lag to the point that you can't even punish them, even if you pretty much know exactly what they're going to do but your moves are so limited that you can't do anything about it?

Playing good footsies involves taking the smallest window of opportunity your opponent gives and countering him/her with well timed moves of your own. It's possible even if you have to develop new strategies (and become SnakEyes) in the process.

Also you can get a ton of mileage out of perfect shielding. If you know what moves your opponent will do and when, you should be able to win 100%.

 

[SnakeSlashRO]

I just want a new Kirby Air Ride or Kid Icarus Uprising.

I'd like to see him move on... Didn't someone else do Melee? I think Nintendo can handle Smash in the future.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Source

What exactly did Sakamoto even do when directing Super Metroid? Jesus....

to be fair, it's not ridiculous to think that having a purple suit could be slightly inappropriate if you're trying to make a more realistic setting..
I don't really see why it's a big deal one way or the other to be honest..

I guess, he has the same deal like Christopher Nolan. Sakruai works on Smash and in return Nintendo finance any kind of project, he wants to work after that.

Has this been confirmed?

He did that after brawl. Wouldn't surprise him doing the same thing this gen.

Personally I would like to see him have much more freedom than that.