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[ec0ec0]

Melee introduced side-specials, d-special character swap, and puppeteers, if anything it made things considerably more complex in the N64 to Melee jump than from the Melee to Brawl Sm4sh jump.

Like I said, I want someone to actually list me these odd-complexities that have apparently lingered now that IC, Snake, Pokemon Trainer, and Sheik/Zelda are gone.

Here are the oddities I can think of:

1. Lucario (skill set isn't complicated at all)
2. Olimar (he's an odd one alright)
3. Rosa/Luma (Puppeteer no different from IC.)
4. MegaMan (he's an odd one alright)
5. Shulk (no different from Sheik/Zelda, in fact considerably less bizarre)
6. DuckHunt (in same category as MegaMan and Olimar, they're basically a new "genre" so to speak.)
7. Robin (nothing about his odd outside of the fact that he's got strong moves that you have to keep track of)

You made a list!! cool haha

ohhh!! thanks to you, now i remember the characters that were added

-Shulk was nuts (i liked him, but my little brother didn't)

-Villager was pretty extrange, no?

- i found palutenas (all the active frames in the world) tilts unnatural for a casual player, no?

 

[Metal B]

Well, yeah. I know. I mentioned melee because both 64 and melee were going in a similar direction (and also because i'm used to haha). But i agree with what Tookay said that, since brawl, movesets started to become harder to understand for casual players.

That is the concept of Smash ever since and the secret of having such a big variety of characters. Have a simple basic game-play and get more complex in the characters only. You have to understand the difference of your character to get good with them.
If your little brothers has problems using the more complex characters, let him choose the more basic one and train with the other one later. My little nice got the game recently and is already decent with Fox.

Yeah, I love Chain Grabbing is gone, but will never get the hate for L canceling and don't really care. If all A aerials automatically had zero lag the competitive community would be okay with that as well.

Seems silly it's complained about so much.

i like it because it punishes people for trying to do a late read or for people that don't practice against different character heights or shields, but it's not like the oppressive force people make it out to be.

I heard this argument many time and still find it funny. Having different parameter for landing-lag actually makes the game much more deep. You just can't trow out moves like nothing and actually have to think about it. It also helps the designers to balance the attacks. Captain Falcon got his powerful Knee of Justice back, because the developers traded lag for power. There are so many option as a designer, you can make with creating those variables, which in return make the game deeper and differentiates the characters.
No Charizard will use aerials close to the ground (except his fantastic Nair), since they all lag terrible. In return they gave him one of the best grabs, fast ground attack and fire breath has a fantastic spacing-tool, so he can launch opponent into the air and use his powerful other aerials there.

There are so many smart balance ideas and mechanics at place in SSB4, that i don't get all the criticizing of the lack of deep.

 

[Daouzin]

It’s very easy to read opinions and see who has no idea how to perform at a high level in Smash4’s
style. The notion that it doesn’t offer high level competitive play is laughable in my opinion.

I don't think anyone is arguing that it doesn't have high level play. At the end of the day I think we can all agree the game could be tailored more for competitive play and I think we can all agree that Sakurai needs to be gone for this to happen.

Most of the discussion is nuanced variations of:

-Does it have enough depth to stick around in the competitive circuit. Not necessarily as long as Melee, but at least until the next Smash.
-Do we think Sakurai being gone will help or hinder what different posters want.

For Glory is a prime example of 'not getting it.' Not because they didn't try, because they did try, but because the thinking in their messaging suggests that this is a big welcome to competitive players. It's not. It's nice, that's for sure, I wouldn't even be playing Smash 4 still if it wasn't for , For Glory, but they've got a long way to go and they just don't want to go there.

Sakurai gone can allow for them to get there.

 

[Vena]

-Villager was pretty extrange, no?

He's just Peach with a house and bowling ball. None of his moves are strange outside of Pocket.

- i found palutenas (all the active frames in the world) tilts unnatural for a casual player, no?

The moves linger, thats not complicated nor is it hard to understand after doing it once, lol. (Also no different from how Pikachu has always worked, and Peach's down-smash.)

I play this game with an age group that ranges from 5 year old to college students, I have honestly not ever seen the reactions you speak of outside of MegaMan and Olimar with "he's too hard". The younger they get, the more they favor Charizard.

For Glory is a prime example of 'not getting it.' Not because they didn't try, because they did try, but because the thinking in their messaging suggests that this is a big welcome to competitive players. It's not. It's nice, that's for sure, I wouldn't even be playing Smash 4 still if it wasn't for , For Glory, but they've got a long way to go and they just don't want to go there.

For Glory was made with the Japanese competitive circuit in mind. Don't blame Sakurai for following the circuit of his homeland.

 

[ec0ec0]

My little nice got the game recently and is already decent with Fox.

In my experience, young boys like fox (i don't know why) haha. Or maybe everyone likes him...

 

[wrowa]

Sakurai gone can allow for them to get there.

You need Nintendo to be gone for that to happen, since what you wish for is quite simply not what Nintendo has in mind with its games. Smash Bros. will never be targeted or aimed at high level play. If anything, it's going to be more casual if Sakurai leaves, since you can be confident that Miyamoto and co see no value in making it a competitive title.

Personally? I want Sakurai to go away. Not because I want Smash Bros. to be more competitive or more casual, but because I think the series is just a waste of his talent. The formula is what it is, there's not really much room for significant changes as Smash 4 has shown.

 

[Daouzin]

Yes, but release Melee today and the creation of FOOS wouldn't take longer than a few months due to how the internet and youtube have evolved since its release. Information dissemination is simply orders of magnitude faster and nowadays people are looking for such breaks in the game.

haha, this response just shows your lack of understanding.

You don't think Smash players used DC++? We shared smash videos all the time. Would it happen a lot faster today, you bet, but Smash 4's FOOS is so well defined because the moves are so well defined. It's a larger problem, to me personally than you make it out to be.

It's like playing Magic: The Gathering, but having your deck built for you and your win conditions really obvious to everyone, that's why reads are so important now because options are limited. I just missing building my own deck.

As a Ganon player in Melee, I can still destroy high level fox and falco mains even if the FOOS tells me not play Ganon because of the way I've tailor my play through L cancels and Wave dashing.

In Smash 4 I have to constantly change characters because the creative options are lacking.

Don't get me wrong I like Smash 4 a lot, but It's about 80% of where I think it needs to be and I think Sakurai gone could get it there.

 

[ec0ec0]

outside of MegaMan and Olimar with "he's too hard". The younger they get, the more they favor Charizard.

i though that both shulk and duck hunt neutrals B were madness. It was difficult for me to explain megaman to my brother. After teaching him he liked it, but it was still difficult for him to be effective with megaman. Olimar was more difficult in brawl. Now, thanks to it's new upB and different pikmin mechanics, he is a little easier to use (but still strange)

 

[Vena]

haha, this response just shows your lack of understanding.

My understanding is fine, you just seem to like rewriting history.

It's like playing Magic: The Gathering, but having your deck built for you and your win conditions really obvious to everyone, that's why reads are so important now because options are limited. I just missing building my own deck.

As a long time player of MtG, I have a feeling you don't understand just how bad the FOOS permeates that game and the T2 meta (let's not even get started on Legacy play). Ya, you can get lucky and draw that perfect winning combination... or they can get their utterly random, standard hand and win 90% of the time anyway.

As a Ganon player in Melee, I can still destroy high level fox and falco mains even if the FOOS tells me not play Ganon because of the way I've tailor my play through L cancels and Wave dashing.

The FOOS says what you SHOULD play to get the highest return for the least amount of risk. FOOS doesn't prevent the exception of winning without FOOS, you've simply burdened yourself with a higher risk for the same return. (Moreover, in Melee self imposed risk is even more heavily punished because of how chain-grabs and 0-KOs work disproportionately well against the heavies.)

I can also beat a Dark Souls with SL1. Adding self-imposed challenges doesn't invalidate FOOS, it just means I have to put in considerably more effort to achieve the same result. You can self-impose all the challenges you want in Sm4sh as well...

i though that both shulk and duck hunt neutrals B were madness. It was difficult for me to explain megaman to my brother. After teaching him he liked it, but it was still difficult for him to be effective with megaman. Olimar was more difficult in brawl. Now, thanks to it's new upB and different pikmin mechanics, he is a little easier to use (but still strange)

I've let my little cousin play without input and after a few minutes of screwing around all of the characters become self-evident in what they do. I mean, even you just made a point of it in how he liked it after he learned it.

Yes, she was prone to prefer playing Charizard and Flame Blitz initially. She's since graduated to playing the whole roster. She's not good, but the variety makes it have a long-term draw.

 

[chaosblade]

Having different parameter for landing-lag actually makes the game much more deep. You just can't trow out moves like nothing and actually have to think about it. It also helps the designers to balance the attacks. Captain Falcon got his powerful Knee of Justice back, because the developers traded lag for power.

This is a specific example I can work with.

I don't really agree that limitations add depth. In Melee (and PM) Falcon's knee is one of his most important moves. It can be used as a KO move, during tech chases, starting and continuing combos, edge guarding.

The huge landing lag in Smash 4 (and the knockback and scaling) limits it dramatically. It's solely a KO move, nothing more. Same for Falcon's stomp. In Melee (and PM) it's an incredibly useful move when tech chasing, but in Smash 4 the lag is so long it's impossible to follow up.

The argument that this just means you have to "think more" before using these moves in their specific situations makes sense in theory, but in action I don't think that's true. You're thinking when you choose to tech chase with a knee or a stomp, or when you choose to combo a weak knee into a strong one. Falcon (in Melee and PM at least) is a limited character, so it's important to choose options that are effective.

I struggled with Falcon in Smash 4, I just couldn't really understand how to use him, but I've got a lot of Melee and PM experience that is probably fogging my vision. Maybe he has enough options now that having his former-best-move gimped doesn't hurt him dramatically. I know his up and down tilts are better, though still not great.

 

[bchamba]

This is a specific example I can work with.

I don't really agree that limitations add depth. In Melee (and PM) Falcon's knee is one of his most important moves. It can be used as a KO move, during tech chases, starting and continuing combos, edge guarding.

The huge landing lag in Smash 4 (and the knockback and scaling) limits it dramatically. It's solely a KO move, nothing more. Same for Falcon's stomp. In Melee (and PM) it's an incredibly useful move when tech chasing, but in Smash 4 the lag is so long it's impossible to follow up.

The argument that this just means you have to "think more" before using these moves in their specific situations makes sense in theory, but in action I don't think that's true. You're thinking when you choose to tech chase with a knee or a stomp, or when you choose to combo a weak knee into a strong one. Falcon (in Melee and PM at least) is a limited character, so it's important to choose options that are effective.

I struggled with Falcon in Smash 4, I just couldn't really understand how to use him, but I've got a lot of Melee and PM experience that is probably fogging my vision. Maybe he has enough options now that having his former-best-move gimped doesn't hurt him dramatically. I know his up and down tilts are better, though still not great.

Falcon's knee gimp was enough to get me to stop playing Sm4sh after 2 days. Game isn't fun when you can't combo into it.

 

[entremet]

As someone who overall prefers the gameplay of Smash4 to Melee, I will try to give you my reasons on mostly a technical basis, with maybe some other non technical preferences sprinkled in.

Melee’s gameplay is extremely fast paced, with combo’s and chaining attacks as it’s primary foundation. It is a heavily offensive based game. Stocks go very quickly. Edge guarding and gimping techniques are used at a much greater frequency of success. Reading many of the arguments from melee enthusiasts, these are the primary reasons I’ve seen used as to why they prefer Melee over Smash4:

- The speed of the game is overall faster
-Hit Stun, L-Cancelling, Wave Dashing all provide much more offensive options, and limit defensive play.
-Melee players prefer the momentum jumping, and the air dodging mechanics of Melee.

From a competitive/technical standpoint, this is why I prefer Smash4 over Melee.

Often times I think the emphasis on offense in Melee is too much. 0 to Deaths, or close, are cool to see, but they are often times too easy to do. From my experience playing, which has been awhile, and my experience watching competitive play, most the strategy revolves around who can hit their set up move first to create a chain of attacks that will either lead to a ko/gimp or a high percentage. I like it when a person on the receiving end has defensive options to avoid these long chains. Smash 4 has a better balance, and I think the defensive options are overstated by Melee fans. In the air, most characters have 1 or 2 options to recover from being chained into something else. The focus on reading your opponent and understanding their patterns is emphasized in Smash 4 because if I hit someone in the air, and I want to follow up, I have a narrow window of hit stun available (Hit Stun was lengthened in Smash4). If I know I can’t follow up with an
attack before that hit stun goes away, I have to know what options are available to my opponent. Is he more likely to immediately air dodge, or bust out an attack, while moving towards or away from me? More often than not, I gain an understanding of how the opponent operates and can accurately follow up with an attack, but it at least gives the opponent an option to get out of a bad situation. In this regard I prefer Smash4.
I’ve never been fond of the idea that speed = better. That puts an emphasis on reflexes, which is fine, but I’d rather a fighting game finds a balance where competitive play emphasizes both quick reflexes AND critical thinking, analyzing the opponent/scenario, etc. I think both Melee and Smash4 do this fine. I’ve heard the argument that Smash4 is too slow. I don’t think this could be further from the truth.
I prefer the ledge mechanics in Smash 4 to Melee. Makes it much harder to gimp and edge hogging is virtually impossible. Edge hogging is too easy in Melee and Brawl. This change also makes more characters potentially competitively viable. Characters who may have very bad recoveries. Again, this doesn’t take the edge game away at all. The person edge guarding still has the advantage and the ability to gimp, but it’s a little tougher on them and requires more skill to pull off on a consistent basis.
Overall the character balance seems to be much better in Smash4 than Melee or Brawl. Many characters feel much more competitively viable to use, which will hopefully lead to more variety. Still early in the game, but it’s feeling like this is accurate. In addition, and this is because it is a newer game, but the character variety, move variety is just on another level compared to melee.

I’ve never been a fan of chain grabbing, infinites, or 0-Deaths that occur because the person being attacked had no options. It’s less about skill and more about memorizing an attack pattern. This is why I like some of the seemingly minor changes that have a lot of impact, such as the already mentioned ledge mechanics, and the inability to immediately grab after a previous grab.
Summarizing:

Ultimately, I feel like Smash4 strikes a much better balance between offense and defense. I think a greater emphasis is placed on reading and understanding your opponent vs Melee, which puts a greater emphasis on setting an opponent up for a quick death or a combo chain. For the most part, with some situational exceptions, I don’t feel like the defensive options inhibit offensive play. It strikes a much better balance than Brawl in this regard. I feel like Smash4, for obvious reasons, has much more character variety, based on the amount of characters, move variety, and competitive variety. Ultimately though I suppose it comes down to preference. My gripe with the community is that I feel a lot of melee fans are not open minded, and are really just regurgitating tired arguments that they heard from other melee fans that don’t really apply to Smash4. It’s very easy to read opinions and see who has no idea how to perform at a high level in Smash4’s
style. The notion that it doesn’t offer high level competitive play is laughable in my opinion.

Great writeup.

I also prefer Smash4 competitively. I just have way more fun with it and the rush down bias Melee isn't my play style.

Smash4 reminds me a lot of SFIV actually in its back and forth pace (you have make your reads), while Melee reminds more of the Marvel games, which are faster paced and rush down orientated.

 

[KirbyKid]

Falcon's knee gimp was enough to get me to stop playing Sm4sh after 2 days. Game isn't fun when you can't combo into it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbm1BthaQN4

When a game doesn't play like how you want you have 3 choices.

give up.

do the lab work

or wait until someone else does the lab work.

 

[bchamba]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbm1BthaQN4

When a game doesn't play like how you want you have 3 choices.

give up.

do the lab work

or wait until someone else does the lab work.

Being able to combo into a knee in practice mode against an AI that is not using any DI and only at specific percentages is not the same as being able to combo into a knee against a human opponent.

 

[Metal B]

I don't really agree that limitations add depth. In Melee (and PM) Falcon's knee is one of his most important moves. It can be used as a KO move, during tech chases, starting and continuing combos, edge guarding.

We can properly summarize our differences in this subject right here. Like persons, characters and game-mechanics depth comes form a combination of strengths and weaknesses (or limitations). I go a little philosophic here, but interesting stories come from overcoming weaknesses. That's why it is great, when people go around the limitations of there characters in fighting-games and use there strength to win the match. That's also the challenge of using a character. If there would be no weaknesses, the game would become dull.

The rest is you giving up on Captain Falcon as a character, because he works different now.
New games, new rules. There many people, who are good at the game and combo well with him.

Being able to combo into a knee in practice mode against an AI that is not using any DI and only at specific percentages is not the same as being able to combo into a knee against a human opponent.

In other words you want a Win-Button for Captain Falcon. Sorry, the game is balanced now.

 

[entremet]

We can properly summarize our differences in this subject right here. Like persons, characters and game-mechanics depth comes form a combination of strengths and weaknesses (or limitations). I go a little philosophic here, but interesting stories come from overcoming weaknesses. That's why it is great, when people go around the limitations of there characters in fighting-games and use there strength to win the match. That's also the challenge of using a character. If there would be no weaknesses, the game would become dull.

The rest is you giving up on Captain Falcon as a character, because he works different now.
New games, new rules. There many people, who are good at the game and combo well with him.


In other words you want a Win-Button for Captain Falcon. Sorry, the game is balanced now.

Falcon is already pretty beastly in Smash 4 as well.

 

[ec0ec0]

I've let my little cousin play without input and after a few minutes of screwing around all of the characters become self-evident in what they do. I mean, even you just made a point of it in how he liked it after he learned it.

Yes, she was prone to prefer playing Charizard and Flame Blitz initially. She's since graduated to playing the whole roster. She's not good, but the variety makes it have a long-term draw.

Now that i think more about it, i think that i complained about this before...

It's also a problem for him that different B (special) moves require different additional button presses

because that worked and was interesting when smash was created. The number of characters was low. Smash 64 had 12 i think. Melee had a lot of clones (so it wasn't that difficult to remember). But, with brawl, it started to be difficult to remember the "press B again" patterns for the different characters because those were to many to remember. Now, it's worse with smash 4... It's something that worked great when smash was created but that it's starting to annoy me now. Also, now, it's easier to see young players not using some of those additional uses of special moves. The developers should probably do something about all this...

edit: and about the more complex characters since brawl... some of those character actually represent their franchise better than some the original smash bros characters. So i guess that that kind of design has disadvantages but also advantages.

 

[C.Olimar788]

I'd like to see someone other than Sakurai take the Smash Bros. helm. It's not really that I dislike Sakurai - he's shown himself to be an excellent game developer time and again even if some of his opinions are bleh - but that I'd just like to see what a new creative mind could bring into the series. I mean, look at Project M. Even outside of its competitive focus it brings in neat new things that Sakurai has never messed with, like a bunch of alternate costumes and "hd remakes" of old N64 stages.

Sakurai has particular areas he focuses on when making games, and so it would be cool to see what other places could be focused on if another director took the helm.

Spoiler

Plus if someone other than Sakurai took the game it would probably do a better job of repping Metroid sooooo

 

[bchamba]

We can properly summarize our differences in this subject right here. Like persons, characters and game-mechanics depth comes form a combination of strengths and weaknesses (or limitations). I go a little philosophic here, but interesting stories come from overcoming weaknesses. That's why it is great, when people go around the limitations of there characters in fighting-games and use there strength to win the match. That's also the challenge of using a character. If there would be no weaknesses, the game would become dull.

The rest is you giving up on Captain Falcon as a character, because he works different now.
New games, new rules. There many people, who are good at the game and combo well with him.


In other words you want a Win-Button for Captain Falcon. Sorry, the game is balanced now.

Yup that's exactly what I was arguing for. This game feels more balanced for people that want a defensive oriented game. I've gone back to playing PM.

 

[Neoxon]

I'd like to see someone other than Sakurai take the Smash Bros. helm. It's not really that I dislike Sakurai - he's shown himself to be an excellent game developer time and again even if some of his opinions are bleh - but that I'd just like to see what a new creative mind could bring into the series. I mean, look at Project M. Even outside of its competitive focus it brings in neat new things that Sakurai has never messed with, like a bunch of alternate costumes and "hd remakes" of old N64 stages.

Sakurai has particular areas he focuses on when making games, and so it would be cool to see what other places could be focused on if another director took the helm.

Spoiler

Plus if someone other than Sakurai took the game it would probably do a better job of repping Metroid sooooo

To be fair, there aren't many big Metroid characters that can be deemed as memorable besides Ridley & Dark Samus, & we all know the issue with Ridley.

 

[Metal B]

Yup that's exactly what I was arguing for. This game feels more balanced for people that want a defensive oriented game. I've gone back to playing PM.

Guess, if you can't master a game in two days, it sucks. Thanks bchamba for in lighting us.

 

[Gucci Messiah]

One of the things that's often ignored is how casual mechanics have decayed. For example, Brawl and Smash 3DS allow less Pokeballs to be on the screen than Melee, apparently for framerate issues. This removes the hectic chaos of Melee's Pokemon battles.

How is that the 'decay' of casual mechanics? Seems like a technical limitation to keep the game from running like crap. Smash is more casual and accessible than it has ever been; there's no arguing against this.

 

[chaosblade]

We can properly summarize our differences in this subject right here. Like persons, characters and game-mechanics depth comes form a combination of strengths and weaknesses (or limitations). I go a little philosophic here, but interesting stories come from overcoming weaknesses. That's why it is great, when people go around the limitations of there characters in fighting-games and use there strength to win the match. That's also the challenge of using a character. If there would be no weaknesses, the game would become dull.

The rest is you giving up on Captain Falcon as a character, because he works different now.
New games, new rules. There many people, who are good at the game and combo well with him.

Well of course, the options are probably more different than non-existent, I'm not disagreeing that. I even said as much. The strengths and weaknesses thing is beside the point, I admitted he was already a limited character in the other games, one with more weaknesses than strengths. He has no approach options, no range options, all his ground attacks are terrible aside from his jab combo and grab, awful recovery, etc. Playing Falcon is basically dedicating yourself to a punish-rushdown game, and dropping combos can be deadly.

My point about limiting options primarily comes from that perspective. Taking away the knee in the majority of the cases you would use it doesn't add depth, it makes it different, and potentially removes depth by removing an option. Potentially being the keyword, because I don't know what options do work in those situations. I can't play Falcon in Smash 4 (or anyone for that matter, I won't claim to be better than the average 10 year old after my experience).

 

[bchamba]

Guess, if you can't master a game in two days, it sucks. Thanks bchamba for in lighting us.

To be fair, I put a lot of time into the 3ds version. I blamed the lack of combos while playing this on the 3ds controls and still had hope for the wii u version with a gamecube controller. When it came out and played the same, I knew the game wasn't for me. I don't find the game fun to watch or play. Xanadu is much more exciting to me when they're streaming PM.

Staying on topic, I would prefer somebody else direct the next iteration. There's no reason a game can't be fun for casual players and competitive players. If casuals were playing PM and told it was Brawl they probably wouldn't even realize they weren't playing brawl and would still have fun with all the items they want to put on.

 

[Daouzin]

Guess, if you can't master a game in two days, it sucks. Thanks bchamba for in lighting us.

If this is really what you think, you're not really here for discussion.

His complaint is very clear. He isn't playing Smash for a defensive focused game or a game that leans more in that direction than towards aggressive play.

That's fair. I think the issue is deeper than that for Smash 4 in a competitive sense, but since the release of Smash 4 I haven't allowed myself to play PM or Melee.

I have to test custom Game Cube controllers at work so I use Melee because most of our orders go to Melee players, but whenever I do, I feel reinvigorated in a scary way. It's honestly like taking a hit of some high level drug(I imagine). Movement is just so fluid that it's beautiful.

Outside of that I'm sticking to just Smash 4 until March to give it a good fair 5 months. So far For Glory players are disappointing me, but playing against players offline is feeling pretty good. Still can't play just one character for very long though. Win conditions and setups are just so limited that it gets boring, hope options become more clear to me before March.

How is that the 'decay' of casual mechanics? Seems like a technical limitation to keep the game from running like crap. Smash is more casual and accessible than it has ever been; there's no arguing against this.

No, it doesn't come close to Brawl. I think the existence of Little Mac is a prime example. I feel like a lot of players are going to learn how to play smarter faster because of him. If you don't learn basic spacing and shield fundamentals Little Mac will devastate you. He forces players to be good faster I think.

 

[Shamrock7r]

I don't think anyone is arguing that it doesn't have high level play. At the end of the day I think we can all agree the game could be tailored more for competitive play and I think we can all agree that Sakurai needs to be gone for this to happen.

Most of the discussion is nuanced variations of:

-Does it have enough depth to stick around in the competitive circuit. Not necessarily as long as Melee, but at least until the next Smash.
-Do we think Sakurai being gone will help or hinder what different posters want.

For Glory is a prime example of 'not getting it.' Not because they didn't try, because they did try, but because the thinking in their messaging suggests that this is a big welcome to competitive players. It's not. It's nice, that's for sure, I wouldn't even be playing Smash 4 still if it wasn't for , For Glory, but they've got a long way to go and they just don't want to go there.

Sakurai gone can allow for them to get there.

I apologize for not specifying but I was really replying to this post

It's not surprising to me when I hear that people like Brawl or 4 more than Melee. But I rarely hear explanations about the actual core mechanics as the justification for that. It's usually amounts to the content: more fighters, better graphics, more modes, etc. I'm not sure if I've ever heard anyone argue their preference in such a way where it seems they think that Melee or Smash 64 would be superior games if everything stayed the same except the fighting engine in those titles was replace with Brawl's.

Completely agree about for glory. A missed opportunity.

 

[KirbyKid]

Being able to combo into a knee in practice mode against an AI that is not using any DI and only at specific percentages is not the same as being able to combo into a knee against a human opponent.

Yeah. Do the work.

Find the percentages.

Learn the matchups.

The point is, the "true combo" count in the training mode is a pretty good indicator of what combos. Also, the "AI" does throw in random DI, so doing it repeatedly gets you even better results.

Then, you know.... try it on some human people.

TLDR: Do the work.

 

[BGBW]

Also Smash isn't just Sakurai's baby, but also Iwata's (remember, he referred to it as "my game") so even with Sakurai gone Iwata may be protective of the series and since making the game have a broad appeal is a business decision, chances are it'll stay that way until he steps down too.

 

[C.Olimar788]

Also Smash isn't just Sakurai's baby, but also Iwata's (remember, he referred to it as "my game") so even with Sakurai gone Iwata may be protective of the series and since making the game have a broad appeal is a business decision, chances are it'll stay that way until he steps down too.

It's possible that Iwata doesn't obsess over the false dichotomy of competitive vs. casual as much as Sakurai, though.

The thing about Sakurai is that it seems that once he gets an idea in his head it's very hard for him to get it out. He assumed that Melee's competitive scene was hurting the casual players, and despite evidence to the contrary he still seems to think that a game being competitive naturally hurts its casual value. Somewhere along the line of Brawl's creation he decided Ridley was best as a boss, and despite all of his assertions about him not being a viable character being contradicted by others in the roster, he has stayed that way in Smash 4. I mean, hell, Smash 4 is the first game to not have a new Metroid stage based on lava rising and falling despite that being an element in the Metroid series a grand total of once ever.

 

[Daouzin]

Also Smash isn't just Sakurai's baby, but also Iwata's (remember, he referred to it as "my game") so even with Sakurai gone Iwata may be protective of the series and since making the game have a broad appeal is a business decision, chances are it'll stay that way until he steps down too.

People keep saying this, but I disagree. I think Iwata is actually one of the most progressive marketers at Nintendo. I think he gets the community and the fan base the most. That's why he keeps saying all we need is that "one hit" game. I think he'd likely advocate for a "Melee" mode for DLC just to appease that segment and for the free press and buzz that would create.

Polygon, Giant Bomb, Kotaku are all likely to comment on something like that and the scene playing it for 10+ years is free Nintendo marketing. I think Sakurai just has a vision that can't be altered. I think Iwata is too business savvy to waste this opportunity like Sakurai has.

 

[bchamba]

Yeah. Do the work.

Find the percentages.

Learn the matchups.

The point is, the "true combo" count in the training mode is a pretty good indicator of what combos. Also, the "AI" does throw in random DI, so doing it repeatedly gets you even better results.

Then, you know.... try it on some human people.

TLDR: Do the work.

No amount of time practicing is going to change the game's mechanics. The game limits offensive options and combos become difficult at medium to high percentages. I don't find being extremely limited in the number of scenarios that I can use a knee or dair fun.

 

[Daouzin]

No amount of time practicing is going to change the game's mechanics. The game limits offensive options and combos become difficult at medium to high percentages. I don't find being extremely limited in the number of scenarios that I can use a knee or dair fun.

Yeah that's what I've been saying, not being able to use it at different heights without getting lag if you get too low definitely limits that as a viable option.

Some players in Melee or PM may like to try and combo Knee, example; Knee, Knee, Knee, but other players in those games may like to just go for down air combos that are more read based, but can last longer than just three hits. Those kind of decisions aren't really definitive as one being better than another, but rather play style dependent. Great example actually.

 

[BGBW]

People keep saying this, but I disagree. I think Iwata is actually one of the most progressive marketers at Nintendo. I think he gets the community and the fan base the most. That's why he keeps saying all we need is that "one hit" game. I think he'd likely advocate for a "Melee" mode for DLC just to appease that segment and for the free press and buzz that would create.

Polygon, Giant Bomb, Kotaku are all likely to comment on something like that and the scene playing it for 10+ years is free Nintendo marketing. I think Sakurai just has a vision that can't be altered. I think Iwata is too business savvy to waste this opportunity like Sakurai has.

Melee mode would be a lot of work since they'd have to rebalance the whole roster again. It's not like they can copy and paste code seeing as a good chunk of the roster wasn't even in Melee. Also why not N64 mode for those players? Or what about the fact that it seems rules change depending on region as For Glory was in response to the tournament scene, it just happened to be the Japanese one.

My point was in reference to the suggestion that Smash should change from for everyone to competitive scene focused. From broad appeal to niche appeal would not be a sane business decision, especially if one is after that "one hit" that will make a system sell.

 

[KirbyKid]

No amount of time practicing is going to change the game's mechanics. The game limits offensive options and combos become difficult at medium to high percentages. I don't find being extremely limited in the number of scenarios that I can use a knee or dair fun.

That's fine. But don't say that you can't combo into knee when you really mean something like what you described in the quote above.

Gotta be specific when you think/feel something specific.

Also, you don't have to blame Smash4 for your lack of skill. I know that sounds like a dig, but seriously. You don't know how to play the game very well and neither does anybody else. Over time people get more precise with their moves and better at predicting their opponent. Combined with an ever increasing knowledge of the game and you are very likely to see a much different offensive game in the future.

Seems that most people here attempt to talk about Smash as if they can peer into its depth from the shore without putting on a suit and diving in. It's going to take time. Beyond that, metagames have trends and seasons. When offense increases in effectiveness, defensive trends are sure to follow. Players have to be pressured to find solutions against what works.

If you want to make comparisons between Smash 4 and PM, I think any point you can make will be obvious. PM is hyper offense for everyone for free. Just dash in and l-cancel your way into playing like Fox. Smash 4 is a game with a very different approach.

 

[Daouzin]

Melee mode would be a lot of work since they'd have to rebalance the whole roster again. It's not like they can copy and paste code seeing as a good chunk of the roster wasn't even in Melee. Also why not N64 mode for those players? Or what about the fact that it seems rules change depending on region as For Glory was in response to the tournament scene, it just happened to be the Japanese one.

My point was in reference to the suggestion that Smash should change from for everyone to competitive scene focused. From broad appeal to niche appeal would not be a sane business decision, especially if one is after that "one hit" that will make a system sell.

I dunno, 320k+ views on just this version of this episode of the documentary suggests that something smart marketing wise could happen here in conjunction with a release or announcement of a Melee Mode or Melee HD. Maybe make a fun kickstarter saying, hey Melee fans, it costs X amount to do this, raise that much in Kickstarter and we'll do it for you. The fans would pay for it, instantly. I think Iwata is savvy enough to consider stuff like that as long as it's presented the right way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSf2mgkRm7Q&list=PLoUHkRwnRH-IXbZfwlgiEN8eXmoj6DtKM&index=1

It's okay if the game isn't as balanced in Melee Mode. They don't have to bend backwards for us. Give us the toy box and let us see what we can do with it.

People keep saying the Japanese Smash community is massively different, where is this documented and where can I see proof of this. I'm kind of not buying it, but I'm totally open to it if someone can send me a link.

 

[BGBW]

It's okay if the game isn't as balanced in Melee Mode. They don't have to bend backwards for us. Give us the toy box and let us see what we can do with it.

Then why can't one just do this with vanilla Smash 4? See what you can do with that for a year.

 

[Metal B]

To be fair, I put a lot of time into the 3ds version. I blamed the lack of combos while playing this on the 3ds controls and still had hope for the wii u version with a gamecube controller. When it came out and played the same, I knew the game wasn't for me. I don't find the game fun to watch or play. Xanadu is much more exciting to me when they're streaming PM.

This is actually a big difference to playing it for two days. Well, if you not like the game, that's completely ok. I still think, you didn't get the game right. The game is actually very balanced in offensive and defensive mechanics. It just isn't heavily offensive like Melee or PM, but this just creates more a variate of characters.

If this is really what you think, you're not really here for discussion.

His complaint is very clear. He isn't playing Smash for a defensive focused game or a game that leans more in that direction than towards aggressive play.

That's fair. I think the issue is deeper than that for Smash 4 in a competitive sense, but since the release of Smash 4 I haven't allowed myself to play PM or Melee..

He started the conversation with "I played it for two days". Sorry, if it's hard to take somebody seriously, if wants to add something about depth in a fighting game after that.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I apologize for not specifying but I was really replying to this post

Completely agree about for glory. A missed opportunity.

In general, I want to make it clear that I have to recuse from weighing in as some sort of authority on the conversation. I've always admired competitive Smash play, but whether we're talking Melee, Brawl, or 4, I'm nowhere near good enough to really speak definitively about the games strengths or weaknesses. However, though I won't pretend that I've studied extensively the arguments as they might occur here or (more likely) at places like Smash boards, I just generally find that more articulation for the merits of Melee's core gameplay than I do the later titles. You might argue that I'm just not looking in the right places, and that's a fair counter-point.

I also want to clarify that I've never argued that there isn't high level competitive 4 play. Again, though I myself am lousy at the game and am rocking a close to but not quite 500 average in For Glory on Smash 4 Wii U (was slightly above 500 on 3DS just to make myself feel slightly less abysmal), I do try and watch some tourney footage of Smash 4 in my downtime at work because I:

A.) Do find it enjoyable to watch.
B.) Dream of one day having more free time to play the game and become not awful at it.

Anyway, back to the point, I just get the general sense that -- your own post notwithstanding -- there's been a lot of critique/analysis I've read on the 'net about why Melee/PM fans prefer those titles to Smash 4 and not as much chatter about why Smash 4 fans prefer it to Melee/Project M. But just to belabor the point so that it becomes downright tedious to read, I want to again assert that I'm not a pro. I'm sure you could destroy me in any of the Smash games.

 

[Daouzin]

Then why can't one just do this with vanilla Smash 4? See what you can do with that for a year.

Did you read my previous posts? I'm saying the toy box isn't interesting enough to me. It's like going back to Tony Hawks one after manualling was added. It's fun still, but man I'm going to miss those grind chains in the airport level.

 

[Rentahamster]

To make it purely a game for the competitive gaming community would basically stop it from being Smash any more.

It's a good thing hardly anyone wants this, so you don't have to use this strawman argument anymore.

If we want to make Stone, Paper, Scissors more competitively focused, we have to make changes. "Stone, Paper, Scissors, Spock, Lizard" is actually a more competitive change of the original rule set. Now we have a lot more options. Actually remembering the rules of the games becomes a skill, which can change the flow of the game and how you read your opponent.

No. You're conflating "competitiveness" and "being complicated". Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVL4st0blGU

Just because you add more features to a game doesn't automatically make it more "competitive" or more "deep". To see gauge the true life value of its competitiveness, look to see which game the actual competitive players are playing. It's not Spock Lizard. They're holding $10,000 tournaments for Stone/Paper/Scissors.

The fact that you're using this game as an example shows your misunderstanding of the situation and of what competitive players actually want. Melee isn't analogous to Spock/Lizard. Melee is Stone/Paper/Scissors - a game with a simple ruleset that anyone can understand, but which also contains a metagame that attracts competitive players too.

You not understanding the whole picture is actually a problem. You see, people always praise Melee, but all the expert of the scene know, it is actually a broken mess. Is just happens to be broken in a way, that some specif rules, characters and glitches make the game competitive and lot of fun.

Um...good? That's the point of a game - to have fun - regardless of the origin of that fun. Combos in Street Fighter were originally an unintended glitch, too.

Sakurai, in terms of game content and aesthetics, knew what made Smash good and he improved on that. However, in terms of gameplay and gameplay depth, he did not understand, and started on a path of making it worse because he doesn't understand that accessibility for a casual audience, and gameplay depth for a hardcore audience are not mutually exclusive gaming goals.

Nintendo would lose an audience, which in return would mean, that the series needed to scale down and properly has a harder time to recover (look at Street Fighter 4).

I'm not sure I understand how you are using SF4 in this comparison.

Many thing actually help Smash 4 more, to stay competitive. Beginning of advertising, big cooperate support, not being a grey-area mod to not being in official control and the possibility of the modder abandoning it.

Many reasons, yes, that have nothing to do with the gameplay (an important feature in a game).

 

[Astral Dog]

Its not a question if he should, but more if he can, or wants to direct SB.

 

[Tookay]

Yeah. Do the work.

Find the percentages.

Learn the matchups.

The point is, the "true combo" count in the training mode is a pretty good indicator of what combos. Also, the "AI" does throw in random DI, so doing it repeatedly gets you even better results.

Then, you know.... try it on some human people.

TLDR: Do the work.

This isn't just a matter of "git gud."

It's a matter of people who are good realizing that the mechanics don't allow for much comboing.

 

[KirbyKid]

I just generally find that more articulation for the merits of Melee's core gameplay than I do the later titles. You might argue that I'm just not looking in the right places, and that's a fair counter-point....

there's been a lot of critique/analysis I've read on the 'net about why Melee/PM fans prefer those titles to Smash 4 and not as much chatter about why Smash 4 fans prefer it to Melee/Project M.

It's true, but the history is pretty complicated.

Take your pick of any of these reasons and see if they sound right to you.

1) Melee players are typically older. The newer smash games grab a fresh batch of kids every time. But many of the melee kids are now adults with jobs and families. The places where these older players articulate their thoughts (such as GAF?) are different from the younger players.

2) Melee players were part of a dying community. Then they buckled down and fought back for a explosive return. Unfortunately, much of this fighting was against Brawl and Brawl players. The Brawl v. Melee schism is a real thing and the effects run deep. The results of my Project Smash survey along attest to this. So there is naturally a lot expressed about how "great" melee is and also how "terrible" Brawl. The melee community had to trumpet loudly to stay alive.

3) A lot of new players to Smash (64, melee, brawl, smash 4) only know what they've heard on the internet. Unfortunately because of 2, there are a lot of quippy, inaccurate, shortsighted, and mean things said about all Smash games (but with a focus on Brawl in particular) .So it doesn't surprise me that you'll hear a lot of people repeating what they've heard with no direct experience or understanding of the history.

4) Brawl players were focused on playing their game and digging deep. Not writing about it.

I am loving Smash 4 right now. I prefer it over Brawl, and Brawl over Melee. And so on. I've been playing Smash since day 1 Smash 64, and do a lot to improve the community. Even on my blog where I write about the smallest unknown games for thousands of words, I typically don't write about Smash because I'm too busy playing it and having fun. I can explain exactly what I see in Smash 4 if you want. It'll probably be better if you focus the inquiry to one aspect.

 

[Daouzin]

I am loving Smash 4 right now. I prefer it over Brawl, and Brawl over Melee. And so on. I've been playing Smash since day 1 Smash 64, and do a lot to improve the community. Even on my blog where I write about the smallest unknown games for thousands of words, I typically don't write about Smash because I'm too busy playing it and having fun. I can explain exactly what I see in Smash 4 if you want. It'll probably be better if you focus the inquiry to one aspect.

You can love whatever you want. If you love Smash 4 and you love Brawl, that's awesome, power to you.

The discussion is about in the context of competitive play and Sakurai.

I don't know how often you travel to tournaments or host tournaments or watch tournament play or if you just theory craft in a basement by yourself.

The Melee community did weaken for a few years, but I wouldn't consider it 'close' to dying. I'd say there was a hiatus for half the community while people gave Brawl a legitimate chance.

Don't see a problem with that.

This isn't just a matter of "git gud."

It's a matter of people who are good realizing that the mechanics don't allow for much comboing.

Yeah, seriously, the movement has some serious Jank to it, but the one thing that does feel good to me is the speed in which your dash comes out upon hitting the ground and inputting it. It's fluid and feels really satisfying. Just haven't found great options following it besides quick foward airs with Sonic and Falco.

 

[Vena]

It's a matter of people who are good realizing that the mechanics don't allow for much comboing.

They do, otherwise we wouldn't be seeing the 0-to-Deaths we see in Sm4sh without needing chain-grabs, shines, or infinites. The comboing is now either low-% limited, or varies rather wildly in how to approach it depending on the %.

Arguably, the former rule-limit on combos rewards players who are better at comboing into a kill quickly/effectively, while punishing those who aren't as you've now set your opponent up with rage. Most of the combos are, as always, DI related but aren't as hand-holding as Melee's due to the lower hit-stun and the ability to eventually air-dodge. The nerfed air dodge frames and recovery also bring more emphasis to the out-stage game and the chases.

Since we tend to learn when the tumble frames end in a combo chain, though, we also know when to expect that air dodge, introducing another level of mind-games. Etc.

ZSS bread-and-butter combo from d-smash, trajectory track, u-tilt, u-tilt, u-special is one such example of a combo that has a lot of prediction built into it as you need to 1-gauge the trajectory of the stun gun, 2-predict the DI, 3-hit every single hit-box on the u-special through the DIs.

 

[KirbyKid]

This isn't just a matter of "git gud."

It's a matter of people who are good realizing that the mechanics don't allow for much comboing.

Of course this is a matter of "git gud." You base all of your analysis on your current understanding of Smash4. The problem is, people are heavily influenced from the past games. Many people who can only see in a Melee lens fail to understand the potential of their moves. We all have a lot to learn about playing Smash 4 well.

Now, nothing will make Smash4 combo like PM. So if that's what "much" comboing means, then sure.

You can love whatever you want. If you love Smash 4 and you love Brawl, that's awesome, power to you.

The discussion is about in the context of competitive play and Sakurai.

I don't know how often you travel to tournaments or host tournaments or watch tournament play or if you just theory craft in a basement by yourself.

The Melee community did weaken for a few years, but I wouldn't consider it 'close' to dying. I'd say there was a hiatus for half the community while people gave Brawl a legitimate chance.

Don't see a problem with that.

"The discussion" is actually many different conversations. So be careful when jumping onto a branch of the conversation tree, so to speak.

My post offers an example of someone who appreciates Smash 4 and is able to properly give answers with historical context.

Sounds like you don't know anything about me. A simple search for the "krazykirbykid" might help. I didn't want to drop my credentials in the thread cause people kinda hate that for some reason. But just for you...

Competitive Smash player and TO for Smash 64 2000-2001.
Competitive Melee player and TO and writer. Best Kirby in Nation/World. 2002-2008.
Competitive Brawl player, researcher, TO, and writer. 2008-20013
Project M researcher. Did a 1-2 year project recording and analyzing the metagame of PM.
Competitive Smash 4 player, community organizer (www.smash.menu) . 20014-present.

You may not consider that the melee scene was dying, but it was. I think so (having helped bring the community up from nothing). The players say so (I have many friends who are dedicated to Melee). And the Project Smash survey takers express the same.

I'm not sure what you're responding to. I didn't say I had a problem with anything besides some of the hate against Brawl and the manner some players conducted themselves.

 

[Daouzin]

Arguably, the former rule-limit on combos rewards players who are better at comboing into a kill quickly/effectively, while punishing those who aren't as you've now set your opponent up with rage. Most of the combos are, as always, DI related but aren't as hand-holding as Melee's due to the lower hit-stun and the ability to eventually air-dodge. The nerfed air dodge frames and recovery also bring more emphasis to the out-stage game and the chases.

I like how biased just your language is, haha.

There's nothing hand holding about Melee combos, haha besides the fact that they are possible outside of a few special windows.

Smash 4 is more casual, it's good, it has potential, but let's not be disingenuous here.

I suspect you don't play Melee or PM very often or at a high level.

 

[Daouzin]

Competitive Smash player and TO for Smash 64 2000-2001.
Competitive Melee player and TO and writer. Best Kirby in Nation/World. 2002-2008.
Competitive Brawl player, researcher, TO, and writer. 2008-20013
Project M researcher. Did a 1-2 year project recording and analyzing the metagame of PM.
Competitive Smash 4 player, community organizer (www.smash.menu) . 20014-present.

Were you at MOAST 3 where everyone assumed Ken would win? That was my first out of State tournament.

Edit: Sorry for double posting, didn't realize I just posted.

 

[Vena]

I like how biased just your language is, haha.

There's nothing hand holding about Melee combos, haha besides the fact that they are possible outside of a few special windows.

Infinites and grab-chains aren't hand-holding?

We're not talking about "dumb" combos like Marth's fair, fair, fair, fair, dair combo or MKs uair, uair, uair, uair, u-special - both games have these types of "simple" combo strings. I am talking about combos that are all about the prediction game... which exist in Smash Melee or 4.

 

[ImadKhan]

I wrote this not too long ago. Sorry for the self promotion.

http://www.dailydot.com/geek/smash-bros-masahiro-sakurai-retirement/

tl;dr - bringing in new blood for smash may not be a bad thing.