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[Angry Grimace]

I don't support OSC social views at all, but I can't live my life worrying about supporting or not supporting based on someone's social views.

I couldn't eat food.
In N Out owners are crazy and Chick-fil-a owner is REALLY crazy. One of the huge grocery chains is owned by crazy fundamentalist.

Couldn't see movies.
Either AMC or another chain is owned by a crazy fundamentalist guy.

the list could go on an on, for both sides.

Can't live your life based on who you may be supporting without knowing it.

Being Christian hardly qualifies as patently crazy. Not all Christians go on anti-gay tirades and anti-gay campaigns. There are different degrees here.

 

[Fourth Stooge]

At times like this, we must ask ourselves, "What would Obama do?"

I'll tell you what he would do. He would take a very firm, yet quite nuanced, stance against gay marriage. Then all of you boycotters zealously vote for him and DONATE money to him...the single most powerful man in the history of the world...who happens to oppose gay marriage.

If you really have such strong convictions, don't pay your taxes and don't vote for someone who, by your own opinion, is a bigot. But since you lack the courage to do that, you'll do the next best thing: anonymously not download Shadow Complex. Quite a protest you have going there....

Wow, that is so lame. It's okay to vote for someone you think is a bigot (by your own definition). But it's somehow evil to download a 2.5D shooter because Orson Scott Card is tangentially involved in the game.

I suppose it is apples and oranges though. Obama being the most powerful man in the world and Card being a moderately successful writer of nerd-fiction. Yep, makes perfect sense. Obviously Card is the problem...

I'm in for two (not sure how many of my nieces and nephews have Xbox Live). And no, I did not vote for the bigot (especially after I learned of that racist, homophobic church he attended--according to the boycotters' definition).

I have a sense there is some systemz warz going on in this topic.... So gay....

 

[Jeff Sichoe]

This is an inappropriate forum for Gay Rights activism.

Please take this to a more suitable sub forum such as Off Topic.

I'm here to read about GAMES news - not GAY news.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Do you realize how many amazing works of art, literature and cinema have been made that you've loved, that have probably been written by homophobes, racists and pedophiles?

If you're going to stop playing games because they are associated with someone who is this, you better stop doing a lot of things.

The slippery slope goes far.

For example. You should never, ever read anything by Lovecraft. And you probably should ditch the classic works by Aldous Huxley.

If the only issue is you have trouble contributing -any- money to -any- homophone currently alive, then the problem is you've probably done it HUNDREDS of times and you just didn't know it. But these games are a collection of their parts. No one person represents the product in this case. Nobody anywhere is endorsing homophobia through this product.

In essence, it comes to this:

we have to accept in our gray world, where things often don't have perfect conclusions or morally "right" endings, that people who are racist and homophobic and who like to molest kids... they sometimes make great things.

They sometimes make amazing, wonderful things.

And that extends to games as well. You should do what you feel is right as it's your money, but you should also acknowledge that you are not going to hurt Orson Scott Card or send him any message he will understand. He is already highly successful, and has made good works of art. He is also a homophobe.

Thus is the nature of our dark world.

Again.

Lovecraft is dead.

If I buy his book right now, as in give money to a store in exchange for his new book, the only thing he will continue to do is rot.

If I gave Orson Scott Card money right now, which I would do by buying a copy of a game that is part of his books' universe and he was on staff for, he can do a lot with that money. He can fight gay marriage in other states, he can publish articles advancing the need for a civil war to cleanse America of Democrats, he can donate that money to organizations like the National Organization for Marriage which actively fights gay marriage across the country and for which he is on the board.

It's ridiculous to say "Just ignore what he does because the artist is separate from the work" when ignoring it will help facilitate it.

 

[Calcaneus]

I posed a question that was largely ignored.

If Orson Scott Card owned your local electric company would you have your electricity disconnected?

Expand that.. what if he had a monopoly on all of the electricity in the USA? (or whatever country you live in)

Like Big-E said, cutting off my electricity is a lot different than just not buying a video game. One decision is pretty hard to live with (no electricity = direct negative effect on my daily life) and the other is not hard to live with at all (no shadow complex= no real effect on my daily life).

 

[EmCeeGramr]

I have a sense there is some systemz warz going on in this topic.... So gay....

I'm here to read about GAMES news - not GAY news.

neogaf: the preeminent videogame discussion community

 

[Flyguy]

I'm going to vote with my wallet and wait for the game to be $10 on Amazon.

 

[Amir0x]

It is worth nothing, Fourth Stooge, that you're generalizing a whole lot of people with that statement.

From my personal experience with the election, I know several individuals in the thread did not vote for Obama because of that precise reason.

Others believe that Obama's stances offer a far greater chance to get closer to the goal of "gay marriage", even if they are baby steps. So they vote on those grounds.

Still, I doubt you could classify Obama's views as "homophobic".

 

[Divvy]

This is an inappropriate forum for Gay Rights activism.

Please take this to a more suitable sub forum such as Off Topic.

I'm here to read about GAMES news - not GAY news.

Are you fucking serious?

 

[Mercury Fred]

The worst part of this is that if the boycott ever reached a point that could be defined as "successful", it wouldn't end up reducing homophobia in any way.

The aim of a boycott like this isn't, imo, to "reduce homophobia." The aim is to make a corporation/ company/ etc. aware that they're losing sales from and alienating a specific audience. Often these sorts of boycotts result in an internal change of policy, a distancing from an anti-equality figure, or a shout out to/ donation to a cause that's a sign of goodwill to said boycotters.

This is an inappropriate forum for Gay Rights activism.

Please take this to a more suitable sub forum such as Off Topic.

I'm here to read about GAMES news - not GAY news.

Thanks for the backseat modding, junior.

 

[ToyMachine228]

There isn't a single hint of homophobia in Shadow Complex itself. And if you don't buy Shadow Complex based on the fact that it's set in Orson Scott Card's universe, you're hurting everyone at Chair, who worked hard to make an awesome game. And from what I can manage, Chair as a studio probably doesn't have a ton of money. Not to mention that if you're not buying Shadow Complex you're missing out on a ton of fun yourself.

 

[Calcaneus]

This is an inappropriate forum for Gay Rights activism.

Please take this to a more suitable sub forum such as Off Topic.

I'm here to read about GAMES news - not GAY news.

Last I checked, we were talking about a video game dude.

 

[FoneBone]

The people behind Shadow Complex DO NOT oppose gays. One man, who had nothing to do with the development of the game, is where the blame is being aimed. Don't buy his damn books if you want to boycott something.

You are aware that the heads of Chair are responsible for co-creating the right-wing propaganda that is Empire? I don't know about their views on gays specifically, but arguing that their politics are totally separate is dubious at best.

This is an inappropriate forum for Gay Rights activism.

Please take this to a more suitable sub forum such as Off Topic.

I'm here to read about GAMES news - not GAY news.

Yeah, enjoy your few remaining minutes here.

 

[TheChillyAcademic]

This is an inappropriate forum for Gay Rights activism.

Please take this to a more suitable sub forum such as Off Topic.

I'm here to read about GAMES news - not GAY news.

You are a fantastic idiot. Congratulations.

 

[Google]

So you are equating a situation where spending 15 dollars on a video game console using space bucks is comparable to paying an essential utility in order to live. Thanks guy.

You know - you're a complete moron.

It's a legitimate question. You're choosing to ignore an item because a member of the team has views and agenda's you don't agree with.

Would you choose to ignore other items, such that you require to survive, if such a person were to work within the sale of the product?

 

[Timber]

Ah, of course... a hate reply, was to be expected, but look, i didn't want to upset anyone; as i said, i think Card is an idiot, a bigot if you prefer... but now you're saying i'm bumbling something... and afraid to live in the... ?

Honestly, you can tell all that from a single reply?
I didn't even say i want to support Card; in fact, i'm not going to buy his "products."

I just think it's stupid trying to "boycott" a product, Shadow Complex, that is NOT made by Card, and i think he will receive only minor compensation.
Boycott his damn books or something; HERE you are trying to boycott the developer cHair so that they end up like Grin with Bionic Commando.

Short version: calm down? please?

But not buying his products is boycotting! And whether or not Card "made" the game is going into semantics. The point is that he makes money on it, and it's well within reason for people not to want this to happen. If you don't want to buy Card's products, then you won't buy Shadow Complex. And with that, you are boycotting it. No one is asking for a ban; all we can do is alert like-minded people to just where their money is going. And as far as "poor developers, people are going to lose their jobs" goes, it's a piss poor argument. See my previous post where I expounded on this.

Saying "omg this thread sucks" without saying anything else, like you did in your first post, is a clear sign of ignorance as far as I'm concerned. It's detrimental to proper discussion which is already hard to find because of stupid, no-content posts like yours. I know it's unfair of me to single you out like that, but I can hardly respond to the hundreds (literally) dumb posts made in this thread. Don't see it as a personal attack against yourself but rather a personal attack against anyone clogging up the thread with "this thread sucks!" and anything of the sort.

 

[kodt]

So you are equating a situation where spending 15 dollars on a video game console using space bucks with the ability to live. Thanks guy.

You need electricity to live? Are you a robot?

Yeah, an essential utility for modern living is the same as a leisure product.

Horrible, actually embarrassingly bad analogy.

Modern living there you go, Big-E should have said that. But what is more important: Your modern lifestyle or gay rights?

I will admit it is a horribly uneven analogy, but I still ask the question because if you expand the logic in the OP this would be a possible situation.

You could generate your own electricity, there are alternatives... I think it is a fair question.

 

[anandxxx]

Well, it IS kind of a reproductive dysfunction. On the other hand, who gives a shit?

I can't believe heterosexual people even spend one second thinking about whether gays can marry or not. Again, who gives a shit? Just enjoy your own unhappy marriage.

Regardless, though, if you have to find a person likable to appreciate their art, then your options will dwindle to... pretty much nothing.

That said, I AM boycotting Shadow Complex, for its goofy, unnecessary implementation of 3D elements. Until it goes on sale.

 

[riskVSreward]

snip
So gay....

What the fuck? Are you serious?

 

[Mercury Fred]

Modern living there you go, Big-E should have said that. But what is more important: Your modern lifestyle or gay rights?

I will admit it is a horribly uneven analogy, but I still ask the question because if you expand the logic in the OP this would be a possible situation.

You could generate your own electricity, there are alternatives... I think it is a fair question.

:lol :lol :lol

Redefining "bottom of the barrel."

I guess we could all get in our time machines and go live in a period in which electricity isn't essential to live. But we'd need electricity to power the machine D:

 

[freddy]

Lovecraft is dead.

That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

There isn't a single hint of homophobia in Shadow Complex itself. And if you don't buy Shadow Complex based on the fact that it's set in Orson Scott Card's universe, you're hurting everyone at Chair, who worked hard to make an awesome game. And from what I can manage, Chair as a studio probably doesn't have a ton of money. Not to mention that if you're not buying Shadow Complex you're missing out on a ton of fun yourself.

1) Chair is a wholly owned subsidiary of Epic. To paint them as hurt for cash is lying.
2) Perhaps they should not associate themselves with polarizing people if they didn't expect some people to care?

 

[Nismo350z]

I've bought my copy already, after reading this i'm feeling the urge to try and convince my friends to pick it up.

P.S this thread is Ghey

 

[TheChillyAcademic]

Modern living there you go, Big-E should have said that. But what is more important: Your modern lifestyle or gay rights?

I will admit it is a horribly uneven analogy, but I still ask the question because if you expand the logic in the OP this would be a possible situation.

You could generate your own electricity, there are alternatives... I think it is a fair question.

Really?

REALLY?

 

[EmCeeGramr]

P.S this thread is Ghey

holy shit this thread

this fucking thread

What is happening in here.

 

[kodt]

Like Big-E said, cutting off my electricity is a lot different than just not buying a video game. One decision is pretty hard to live with (no electricity = direct negative effect on my daily life) and the other is not hard to live with at all (no shadow complex= no real effect on my daily life).

So you are only willing to support a good cause if it doesn't cause you any discomfort? Are you only willing to do the morally right thing as long as it doesn't have any significant negative effect on your life?

Sure it is a lot different, but if you are serious about gay-rights you would be willing to sacrifice. Boycotting a $15 game for any cause is hardly a noble action by any measure. If anyone feels proud about boycotting this game they are lazy and hypocritical.

 

[poppabk]

The people behind Shadow Complex DO NOT oppose gays. One man, who had nothing to do with the development of the game, is where the blame is being aimed. Don't buy his damn books if you want to boycott something.

This kind of shit pisses me off just as much as the kind of bullshit Card himself is spewing (though obviously this is less hurtful).

I completely agree. This kind of thing is what turns public opinion against the people campaigning for gay rights. Over 50% of people who voted in the election, 7 million people according to wikipedia, voted for prop 8. My guess is that less than 7 million people in California are directly opposed to gay marriage, a much smaller number are against civil unions, and a much much smaller percentage are against the advancement of gay rights. However the tactics used by the gay rights advocates most likely had a very negative effect on the outcome, in fact the turning point is thought by some to be the ads featuring the pro rights mayor Gavin Newsom.

 

[Chinner]

i bought this game being unaware of this information - slightly disappointed i admit but i'll play the game none the less now considering there the no refunds policy.

 

[FoneBone]

Urgh, this thread is going to get locked because of the idiots who aren't interested in attempting an intelligent discussion.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

holy shit this thread

this fucking thread

What is happening in here.

Teenagers.

 

[ethelred]

You can boycott the game if you want. But personally (and I say this as someone who is: a) very politically active, engaged, and involved; b) a big proponent of gay rights; and c) not at all interested in Shadow Complex specifically), I find the idea of boycotting an artistic product because of the political views of its creator (or, in this case, tangentially involved in the creation, at best) enormously silly. I understand that this is an issue obviously near the hearts of a lot of people, but it's just not an effective way to express that. If you're going to successfully manage in the course of your life to appreciate any form of artistic endeavor, that is going to on some level necessitate dissociating the artistic work from its creator.

It's one thing if the product itself is expressly wrapped in abhorrent political views, but that's not the case here. And similarly, while I detest the political views of Johnny Depp and Mel Gibson, they're damned fine actors and I'm not going to deny myself the ability to appreciate their artistic talents unless they are being applied in a work designed to promote those views. Eric Clapton has endorsed fascist and racist views, but I'll be fucked if the dude can't play the guitar; I'm going to continue to listen to and appreciate his music, and I doubt most people would be willing to boycott Rock Band or Guitar Hero over him (and nor would it be sensible to do so). Koichi Sugiyama is a nationalist and a historical revisionist who has expressed disgusting stuff; his music is still wonderful. And I listen to a ton of classical composers who I'm very certain have, having been on the wrong side of history, held hateful viewpoints. Whether in film, literature, music, or gaming, you just have to separate the artist from the art and be willing to let that art stand on its own merits.

The suggestion made to donate an equal amount of money to a charity that's pushing for the right kind of political action is a really good one, and I hope people just take that productive and beneficial route instead.

 

[jay]

You know - you're a complete moron.

It's a legitimate question. You're choosing to ignore an item because a member of the team has views and agenda's you don't agree with.

Would you choose to ignore other items, such that you require to survive, if such a person were to work within the sale of the product?

Pretend you believed in something. Would you stand up for it if it meant your parents would be eaten alive? If not, does that make you unworthy of having opinions? In other words, the extreme situation is stupid. We all make decisions based on weighing the options and in this case standing up for your belief easily outweighs a videogame for a lot of people.

 

[MikeOfTheLivingDead]

What the fuck? Are you serious?

He's seriously funny

 

[dark10x]

You are aware that the heads of Chair are responsible for co-creating the right-wing propaganda that is Empire? I don't know about their views on gays specifically, but arguing that their politics are totally separate is dubious at best.

If they then turn that money around and create another awesome game, I don't care.

If they were to turn around and use that money to persecute the gay community then, well, I would stand corrected and apologize.

 

[TheFightingFish]

Aside from all the noise in this thread there actually are some pretty interesting concepts to discuss around this. For me, while I don't agree with him, Card's view are not offensive enough and he's not connected enough with Shadow Complex for me to even consider a boycott. But this question that I wonder (and the question that I would ask GAFFers who would not boycott Shadow Complex) is: At what point would I boycott a game based on the views of the developers?

For me, it would probably have to be a combination of a view that I hold highly offensive and a view that was pervading that company in some fashion. Any one developer or artist connected with a game could be outspoken on issues that I highly disagree with, but it would take knowing that a company as a whole stood strongly for something that really bothered me for me to not consider buying their games.

 

[NullPointer]

The aim of a boycott like this isn't, imo, to "reduce homophobia." The aim is to make a corporation/ company/ etc. aware that they're losing sales from and alienating a specific audience. Often these sorts of boycotts result in an internal change of policy, a distancing from an anti-equality figure, or a shout out to/ donation to a cause that's a sign of goodwill to said boycotters.

Yeah. Or radicalizing the other side, bringing further attention to their message and aiding their fundraising efforts.

Pick your battles.

Shadow Complex, of all things, is worth this? Seems more like spite than strategy.

 

[Calcaneus]

So you are only willing to support a good cause if it doesn't cause you any discomfort? Are you only willing to do the morally right thing as long as it doesn't have any significant negative effect on your life?

Sure it is a lot different, but if you are serious about gay-rights you would be willing to sacrifice. Boycotting a $15 game for any cause is hardly a noble action by any measure. If anyone feels proud about boycotting this game they are lazy and hypocritical.

So if I'm not willing to give up almost everything for gay-rights (electricity is essential to live), I'm a hypocrite and should probably give up my support for the cause?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Do you realize how many amazing works of art, literature and cinema have been made that you've loved, that have probably been written by homophobes, racists and pedophiles?

If you're going to stop playing games because they are associated with someone who is this, you better stop doing a lot of things.

The slippery slope goes far.

For example. You should never, ever read anything by Lovecraft. And you probably should ditch the classic works by Aldous Huxley.

If the only issue is you have trouble contributing -any- money to -any- homophone currently alive, then the problem is you've probably done it HUNDREDS of times and you just didn't know it. But these games are a collection of their parts. No one person represents the product in this case. Nobody anywhere is endorsing homophobia through this product.

In essence, it comes to this:

we have to accept in our gray world, where things often don't have perfect conclusions or morally "right" endings, that people who are racist and homophobic and who like to molest kids... they sometimes make great things.

They sometimes make amazing, wonderful things.

And that extends to games as well. You should do what you feel is right as it's your money, but you should also acknowledge that you are not going to hurt Orson Scott Card or send him any message he will understand. He is already highly successful, and has made good works of art. He is also a homophobe.

Thus is the nature of our dark world.

Perhaps, but the slippery slope argument generally only serve to support arguments that would otherwise not be reasonable; I can't really say that Aldous Huxley and H.P Lovecraft are prime candidates for comparison given that what they thought and believed is informed by an entirely different era; Huxley died almost 50 years ago and Lovecraft died over 70 years ago. Ultimately, Card is an active political force in our world.

Ultimately, I find it hard to believe that a game based on OSC's book necessarily qualifies as one of the things in the "grey" areas you speak of. It's pretty much directly connected to the guy. It's not really all that far from buying a copy of Empire, in my estimation. I certainly can't say a GAF wide ban is in order, but if one wouldn't buy one of Card's books based on a judgment of the man's character, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me to buy Shadow Complex.

 

[jeanRicK]

Card is free to be a homophobic douche that dedicates his life to taking rights away from other human beings and people are free to not buy his shit. It's a free speech win-win.

exactly! :lol

 

[Amir0x]

I am glad this thread is made because it's weeding out members at a super speedy rate.

 

[elrechazado]

You should boycott 53% of games produced in california, because that's the percentage of people who voted for prop 8.

oh noez

 

[jay]

It's one thing if the product itself is expressly wrapped in abhorrent political views, but that's not the case here. And similarly, while I detest the political views of Johnny Depp and Mel Gibson, they're damned fine actors and I'm not going to deny myself the ability to appreciate their artistic talents unless they are being applied in a work designed to promote those views. Eric Clapton has endorsed fascist and racist views, but I'll be fucked if the dude can't play the guitar; I'm going to continue to listen to and appreciate his music, and I doubt most people would be willing to boycott Rock Band or Guitar Hero over him (and nor would it be sensible to do so). Koichi Sugiyama is a nationalist and a historical revisionist who has expressed disgusting stuff; his music is still wonderful. And I listen to a ton of classical composers who I'm very certain have, having been on the wrong side of history, held hateful viewpoints. Whether in film, literature, music, or gaming, you just have to separate the artist from the art and be willing to let that art stand on its own merits.

The distinction is gay rights is a relevant issue right now for a lot of people. It's repulsive to pretend Japan didn't commit any war crimes, but denying something from the past isn't as immediately relevant to peoples lives as campaigning against a group of peoples rights.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

And as has been stated before, Epic can release a statement and / or make a donation to repeal Prop 8 and all is forgiven.

Both Epic and Chair, as companies, should be allowed to do what they do (make video games), without being forced to take a stand on any political issue. There's a line down the middle of the road. Some people associated with this game stand on one side, some on the other, but the company and the product sit in the middle. The moment Epic does what you ask, they take a side. They shouldn't have to.

 

[Corto]

Shadow Complex as a game is not apologetic of Card's points of view... My opinion is that boycotting Shadow Complex it's a fascist attitude and only detrimental to people that worked their best to create something good...

As Toscanini said about Strauss and his behaviour through the WWII: "To Strauss the composer I take off my hat; to Strauss the man I put it back on again." The work of an artist should be dissociated of the man. If not, many of the master pieces that we enjoy today in various forms of arts should be boycotted...

 

[DogWelder]

Beaten by Amir0x.

 

[DangerStepp]

Probably the most inane thread NeoGAF has ever nested. And that's a pretty heinous title to receive.

 

[Timber]

People around the world are homophobic. People around the world try to push their morality upon others, and seek legislation to justify or ignore their actions. A boycott on a game, a quality game, a game that has no homophobic overtones*... it just... comes across as some kind of infantile power trip. The world is already dead set on a course that will see full rights for gay individuals and couples - its only a matter of time. And when you have a choice to pick your battles on this front, you choose Epic and Shadow Complex?

Completely missing the point seems to be the standard in this thread. How is not buying something, and trying to inform others (while letting them make their own decisions) as to the nature of a person involved in the product, a power trip? Please don't conflate a boycott with an attempt to ban. The only power we can exert is our power to not give money to people who might use it for purposes we find offensive. That's not a power trip; that's common sense. And you seem to imply that this decision extends only to Shadow Complex. Utterly presumptuous. I don't think anyone who wouldn't buy this game would buy anything of which the profits go to a hateful cause. It's a small segment of a larger effort, nothing to do with randomly or poorly picking battles.

 

[FoneBone]

If they then turn that money around and create another awesome game, I don't care.

I'm not saying it is, in itself, a justification to boycott. But it shouldn't be assumed that their connection to Card is apolitical, when all evidence points to the exact opposite. (Note that I'm referring to the Mustard brothers, and not implicating everyone at the company.)

=My opinion is that boycotting Shadow Complex it's a fascist attitude

:lol

 

[Big-E]

Wait people are arguing that electricity is not essential to life today? Really? Really? This thread is officially off the deep end. I can not believe people are defending that analogy.

Completely missing the point seems to be the standard in this thread. How is not buying something, and trying to inform others (while letting them make their own decisions) as to the nature of a person involved in the product, a power trip? Please don't conflate a boycott with an attempt to ban. The only power we can exert is our power to not give money to people who might use it for purposes we find offensive. That's not a power trip; that's common sense. And you seem to imply that this decision extends only to Shadow Complex. Utterly presumptuous. I don't think anyone who wouldn't buy this game would buy anything of which the profits go to a hateful cause. It's a small segment of a larger effort, nothing to do with randomly or poorly picking battles.

Good post. You have been the most level headed person here.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

I am glad this thread is made because it's weeding out members at a super speedy rate.

you know you'd be agreeing with the op if the person in question was the head of an anti-marijuana legalization group that significantly influenced an important vote