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Should we boycott Shadow Complex?

DeBurgo said:
Personally I'm giving it a pass, since I don't think Shadow Complex is actively disseminating homophobic propaganda or anything, and that's enough for me. But it might not be enough for some people! Though, honestly Peter David's comments actually do make me regret my decision a bit. If he had simply said "Sorry, we fucked up... we really liked Ender's game and thought it would be cool to collaborate with that author, we weren't thinking about the author's shitty opinions, we just wanted to make a cool videogame." But, no, he makes the decision to patronizingly say "Shame on you for having opinions and stances on things! Shame on you for NOT buying our videogame!"

Well, here's my thing: I'm not even of the mindset that I expect them to say "we fucked up". All somebody from Chair would have to say is...

"We understand why some people may not agree with Mr. Card, his opinions, and his actions, and we at Chair do not endorse or agree with those opinions and actions. Our decision to work with Mr. Card was simply from the standpoint that we feel he is a talented and creative writer, and felt that he would be an excellent choice to help us express the world wanted to create for Shadow Complex."

...and I'd be perfectly happy with that response, so long as it was the truth. They don't even have to apologize for Card; just be clear that Chair does not share his views on this topic (unless, you know, they do), and distance themselves from him in that regard without at the same time selling him down the river.

But when you have somebody like Peter speak as if I'M the asshole for exercising my rights as a consumer to buy or not buy whatever the hell I want for whatever reason I want, and for attacking poor little Card, not only does it not win me over, but it makes me feel even more suspicious about the whole thing.
 
Ten-Song said:
The more replies I see like this, the more I'm baffled. Like... really, honestly confused. What the hell kind of reaction is that to have to anything?

"Someone disagrees with me, I MUST BUY SOMETHING!"

Its an extremely complex issue, by not buying something you intended to buy might be denying charities employees and the company might be registered with.

Im not going to stop recommending this game, its damn good. And the people behind this game should be rewarded.
 
Prine said:
Its an extremely complex issue, by not buying something you intended to buy might be denying charities employees and the company might be registered with.

No, I get that it's a complex issue, and I'm not going to try and talk people out of buying it. (Though all the game has prompted me to do is remind myself to re-download SotN on XBLA again) What I was talking about there was the logic of "I wasn't going to buy this, but this guy's stupid, so now I HAVE to buy it, just to prove... whatever!"

That makes no sense to me, and is among some of the dumbest shit I've seen in this thread. I'm all for a lot of the discussion going on here though, just seems like too much of it is constantly being sidetracked by really weird logic.
 
Ten-Song said:
The more replies I see like this, the more I'm baffled. Like... really, honestly confused. What the hell kind of reaction is that to have to anything?

"Someone disagrees with me, I MUST BUY SOMETHING!"


I kinda want to buy it more now too. We already know it's a good/great game, and seeing people boycotting it because OSC was one of MANY people involved in the product that in itself doesn't portray any of OSC's anti-gay beliefs, makes me want to buy it even more.
 
Red Blaster said:
Welp, I guess it's a good thing that no one in this country gives a flying fuck about what conservatives have to say these days.

Well its obivous the Dems do, since they lack the Balls to pass anything they think might upset them.
 
SonOfABeep said:
is this thread still going?

Quit feeding the monster and it will die
Only the summoning through the sacrifice of ten juniors of he whose name is red as ox blood and posseses the legendary artifact of lock shall end its miserable undying existence.
 
minus_273 said:
no i wanted to highlight the radical left here because we have people in this thread advocating freedoms and angry about intolerance but at the same time expressing views intolerant of those who disagree.

You have no clue what you are talking about. If i said i disliked the Klan would you then sympathize with them? Just to be a contrary idealouge who doesn't know his ass from his face?

You see in this nation, there is no freedom for profit. There is freedom to say any batshit crazy thing(1) . As well as the freedom to repudiate and disagree harshly with said insanity.

When a person decides to use thier freedom to actively deny other people thier freedom. Such as said author has. Then i will use my freedom to actively give him what he deserves. Nothing but scorn.
 
Darkmakaimura said:
You know what bothers me about all this...

If the bad guys in the game are left-wing radicals, then why would they
want to attack San Francisco, one of the most liberal cities in America? Wouldn't they want to attack a southern state or other traditionally conservative city?

In the book Empire, which Shadow Complex apparently runs alongside of (there aren't many dates to go by in either Empire or Shadow Complex), the people using the mechs and whatnot see themselves as liberators of the overly-oppressive far right. So their first targets are those with ideals more in line with their own (I.E. NYC, SF). Ultimately it's an Augustus Ceaser story.

People have really gotten obtuse in this thread. The thread that will not die. Though mostly unrelated I have to chuckle when I read comments that say, "As soon as you lobby to pull rights away from other people, you're wrong!" This exact thing happens all the time in the states. Hell, go to your local pub and ask them what they think about the state telling them they can't allow customers to smoke in their bar/restaurant.

Is it stupid to not allow gays to marry? I think so, yes. Is it unconstitutional to think otherwise? No. Is it unconstitutional to use your wealth to further your agenda? No. Thankfullly. Does it suck when people who have tons of money lobby for stupid shit? Well yeah, of course. But it's their right. Deal with it.

The topic is still pretty straight forward. If you don't by SC because OSC offends you, that's great and if you do buy it because you don't care about OSC's opinions (or weight) that's great too. Boycott, burn copies of the game, buy 20 copies of the game, agree with OSC, do whatever you want (that doesn't involve phsyically hurting people) other than telling people who don't agree with your specific viewpoints that they're heartless monsters. That only makes people more aggressively take a stand and dig in.

tl;dr
 
sillymonkey321 said:
I kinda want to buy it more now too. We already know it's a good/great game, and seeing people boycotting it because OSC was one of MANY people involved in the product that in itself doesn't portray any of OSC's anti-gay beliefs, makes me want to buy it even more.

But again, he had involvement, even if it was remote. I was never interested in Advent Rising because it's just a personal thing for me that I'll avoid any piece of entertainment that man touches, so this issue isn't really new to me. (Also Advent Rising turned out to be a spectacularly awful game, that was another reason.)

It's just a weird reversal of logic that doesn't actually reverse logic. Just because you buy a copy out of spite of those people, doesn't mean they're wrong to act as they do, which kind of renders the act of buying it spitefully null and void in the first place.

If you want to buy the game, go ahead and buy it, but saying you're going to buy it because some other people hate OSC and don't want to buy it, just makes no sense to me. But maybe that's just me or something...
 
pvpness said:
The topic is still pretty straight forward. If you don't by SC because OSC offends you, that's great and if you do buy it because you don't care about OSC's opinions (or weight) that's great too. Boycott, burn copies of the game, buy 20 copies of the game, agree with OSC, do whatever you want (that doesn't involve phsyically hurting people) other than telling people who don't agree with your specific viewpoints that they're heartless monsters. That only makes people more aggressively take a stand and dig in.
.

edit
This thread really should die now since the most outspoken members already made it perfectly clear that they wont back down from their position. For the last dozen pages it's just the same argument over, over and over again.
 
thebaroness said:
This is what I gathered the first time I read Ender's Game and ESPECIALLY Speaker for the Dead. I thought they were engaging books, but I wouldn't place them at the absolutely top of any favorites list. I'm amazing that none of his personal viewpoints managed to find their way into any of his works, I'd congratulate him for at least that.
Have you read the Shadow saga? Anton screamed repressed ex-gay to me when I first read the chapter were he meets up with Bean and Petra to discuss what will happen to Bean as he ages and the chances of him passing the modification to his offspring.

Anton's belief that a man who isn't attracted to women must be a "bent" and "twisted" individual mimics his belief that a gay man must have been

OSC said:
"first entered into that world through a disturbing seduction or rape or molestation or abuse"
.

Anton's conviction that a man, no matter how gay he is, has to mate with a woman, no matter how difficult it might be, & his personal desire to do so sounds like OSC's belief that

OSC said:
"many [gay men] yearn to get out of the homosexual community and live normally."

Anton's happiness at finding a single mom he can marry and possibly conceive a child of his sounds like OSC's rant on how LGBT people aren't being denied any rights granted by marriage because

OSC said:
"Any homosexual man who can persuade a woman to take him as her husband can avail himself of all the rights of husbandhood under the law. And, in fact, many homosexual men have done precisely that, without any legal prejudice at all.
Ditto with lesbian women. Many have married men and borne children. And while a fair number of such marriages in recent years have ended in divorce, there are many that have not."


Here's an excerpt out of that chapter.

Shadow Puppets by OSC said:
"Let me tell you what I know," said Anton. "Not as a scientist- that road may not be utterly closed to me, but it's mostly washed out, and full of ruts, and I don't use it. But my life as a man, that door is still open."

"I'm listening," said Bean.

"I have always been as lonely as you," he said. "Never as intelligent, but not a fool, either. I followed my mind into my work, and let it be my life. I was content with that, partly because I was so successful that my work brought great satisfaction, and partly because I was of a disposition not to look upon women with desire." He smiled wanly. "In that era, of my youth, the governments of most countries were actively encouraging those of us whose mating instinct had been short-circuited to indulge those desires and take no mate, have no children. Part of the effort to funnel all of human endeavor into the great struggle with the alien enemy. So it was almost patriotic of me to indulge myself in fleeting affairs that meant nothing, that led nowhere. Where could they lead?"

This is more than I want to know about you, thought Bean. It has nothing to do with me.

"I tell you this," said Anton, "so you understand that I know something of loneliness, too. Because all of a sudden my work was taken away from me. From my mind, not just from my daily activities. I could not even think about it. And I quickly discovered that my friendships were not... transcendent. They were all tied to my work, and when my work went away, so did these friends. They were not unkind, they still inquired after me, they made overtures, but there was nothing to say, our minds and hearts did not really touch at any point. I discovered that I did not know anybody, and nobody knew me.

Again, that stab of anguish in Bean's heart. This time, though, he was not unprepared, and he breathed a little more deeply and took it in stride.

"I was angry, of course, as who would not be?" said Anton. "And do you know what I wanted?"

Bean did not want to say what he immediately thought of: death.

"Not suicide, never that. My life wish is too strong, and I was not depressed. I was furious. Well, no, I was depressed, but I knew that killing myself would only help my enemies-the government-accomplish their real purpose without having had to dirty their hands. No, I did not wish to die. What I wanted, with all my heart, was... to begin to live."

"Why do I feel a song coming on?" said Bean. The sarcastic words slipped out of him unbidden.

To his surprise, Anton laughed. "Yes, yes, it's such a cliché that it should be followed by a love song, shouldn't it? A sentimental tune that tells of how I was not alive until I met my beloved, and now the moon is new, the sea is blue, the month is June, our love is true."

Petra burst out laughing. "You missed your calling. The Russian Cole Porter"

"But my point was serious," said Anton. "When a man's life is bent so that his desire is not toward women, it does not change his longing for meaning in his life. A man searches for something that will outlast his life. For immortality of a kind. For a way to change the world, to have his life matter But it is all in vain. I was swept away until I existed only in footnotes in other men's articles. It all came down to this, as it always does. You can change the world-as you have, Bean, Julian Delphiki-you and Petra Arkanian, both of you, all those children who fought, and the ones who did not fight, all of you-you changed the world. You saved the world. All of humanity is your progeny. And yet... it is empty, isn't it? They didn't take it away from you the way they took my work from me. But time has taken it away. It's in the past, and yet you are still alive, so what is your life for?"

They were at the stone steps leading down into the water Bean wanted simply to keep going, to walk into the Mediterranean, down and down, until he found old Poseidon at the bottom of the sea, and deeper, to the throne of Hades. What is my life for?

"You found purpose in Thailand," said Anton. "And then saving Petra, that was a purpose. But what did you save her for? You have gone to the lair of the dragon and carried off the dragon's daughter- for that is what the myth always means, when it doesn't mean the dragon's wife-and now you have her, and... you refuse to see what you must do, not to her, but with her"

Bean turned to Petra with weary resignation. "Petra, how many letters did it take to make clear to Anton precisely what you wanted him to say to me?"

"Don't leap to conclusions, foolish boy," said Anton. "She only wanted to find out if there was any way to correct your genetic problem. She did not speak to me of your personal dilemma. Some of it I learned from my old friend Hyrum Graff. Some of it I knew from Sister Carlotta. And some of it I saw simply by looking at the two of you together. You both give off enough pheromones to fertilize the eggs of passing birds."

"I really don't tell our business to others," said Petra.

"Listen to me, both of you. Here is the meaning of life: for a man to find a woman, for a woman to find a man, the creature most unlike you, and then to make babies with her, with him, or to find them some other way, but then to raise them up, and watch them do the same thing, generation after generation, so that when you die you know you are permanently a part of the great web of life. That you are not a loose thread, snipped off."

"That's not the only meaning of life," said Petra. sounding a little annoyed. Well, thought Bean, you brought us here, so take your medicine, too.

"Yes it is," said Anton. "Do you think I haven't had time to think about this? I am the same man, with the same mind, I am the man who found Anton's Key, I have found many other keys as well, but they took away my work, and I had to find another. Well, here it is. I give it to you, the result of all my... study. Shallow as it had to be, it is still the truest thing I ever found. Even men who do not desire women, even women who do not desire men, this does not exempt them from the deepest desire of all, the desire to be an inextricable part of the human race."

"We're all part of it no matter what we do," said Bean. "Even those of us who aren't actually human."

"It's hardwired into all of us. Not just sexual desire-that can be twisted any which way, and it often is. And not just a desire to have children, because many people never get that, and yet they can still he woven into the fabric. No, it's a deep hunger to find a person from that strange, terrifyingly other sex and make a life together Even old people beyond mating, even people who know they can't have children, there's still a hunger for this. For actual marriage, two unlike creatures becoming, as best they can, one."


"I know a few exceptions," said Petra wryly. "I've known a few people of the 'never-again' persuasion."

"I'm not talking about politics or hurt feelings," said Anton. "I'm talking about a trait that the human race absolutely needed to succeed. The thing that makes us neither herd animals nor solitaries, but something in between. The thing that makes us civilized or at least civilizable. And those who are cut off from it by their own desires, by those twists and bends that turn them in another way-like you, Bean, so determined are you that no more children will be born with your defect, and that there will be no children orphaned by your death- those who are cut off because they think they want to be cut off, they are still hungry for it, hungrier than ever, especially if they deny it. It makes them angry, bitter, sad, and they don't know why, or if they know, they can't bear to face the knowledge."

Bean did not know or care whether Anton was right, that this desire was inescapable for all human beings, though he suspected that he was-that this life wish had to be present in all living things for any species to continue as they all desperately struggled to do. It isn't a will to survive-that is selfish, and such selfishness would be meaningless, would lead to nothing. It is a will for the species to survive with the self inside it, part of it, tied to it, forever one of the strands in the web-Bean could see that now.

"Even if you're right," Bean said, "that only makes me more determined to overcome that desire and never have a child. For the reasons you just named. I grew up among orphans. I'm not going to leave any behind me.

"They wouldn't be orphans," said Petra. "They'd still have me.

"And when Achilles finds you and kills you?" said Bean harshly. "Are you counting on him being merciful enough to do what Volescu did for my brothers? What I cheated myself out of by being so damned smart?"

Tears leapt to Petra's eyes and she turned away.

"You're a liar when you speak like that," said Anton softly. "And a cruel one, to say such things to her."

"I told the truth," said Bean.

"You're a liar," said Anton, "but you think you need the lie so you won't let go of it. I know what these lies are-I kept my sanity by fencing myself about with lies, and believing them. But you know the truth. If you leave this world without your children in it, without having made that bond with such an alien creature as a woman, then your life will have meant nothing to you, and you'll die in bitterness and alone."

"Like you," said Bean.

"No," said Anton. "Not like me."

"What, you're not going to die? Just because they reversed the cancer doesn't mean something else won't get you in the end."

"No, you mistake me," he said. "I'm getting married."


Bean laughed. "Oh, I see. You're so happy that you want everyone to share your happiness."

"The woman I'm going to marry is a good woman, a kind one. With small children who have no father I have a pension now-a generous one-and with my help these children will have a home. My proclivities have not changed, but she is still young enough, and perhaps we will find a way for her to bear a child that is truly my own. But if not, then I will adopt her children into my heart. I will rejoin the web. My loose thread will he woven in, knotted to the human race. I will not die alone."

"I'm happy for you," said Bean, surprised at how bitter and insincere he sounded.

I haven't read the Homecoming saga but apparently it too has a gay character who suppress his sexual orientation and marries a woman for the purpose of having children and avoiding ostracism...... : /
 
deadatom said:
a contrary idealouge who doesn't know his ass from his face

deadatom said:
That's cool with me. This thread is all about people paying for being or to be an asshole. I bet you musta been bummed when no publisher would dare touch that "fallujah" game. You musta cried when you heard that those poor game developers just had a bad run of luck with their Iraqi genocide simulator.

"Willy Pete NEVER HURT ANYONE" you must of told yourself over and over again. Crying in a crumpled mass of human non-gaming agony. Eventually, you release a video on youtube just yelling "WHY WON'T YOU ALL JUST LEAVE THE GAME DEVELOPERS ALONE?!?" as you cried your eyes out.

To conclude this stupid story. People make decisions. You wanna pay to be an asshole. OK. The developers chose this book to base their game off of. Now they live with the consequences of a terrible story. The consumers can collectively choose to not support those developers by voicing their disaproval. As well as refusing to collectively buy it.

Have fun with the game man.

...
 
pvpness said:
Is it stupid to not allow gays to marry? I think so, yes. Is it unconstitutional to think otherwise? No. Is it unconstitutional to use your wealth to further your agenda? No. Thankfullly. Does it suck when people who have tons of money lobby for stupid shit? Well yeah, of course. But it's their right. Deal with it.
tl;dr

And this is how i choose to exercise my rights to DEAL WITH IT. You act like they are the ones that need protection from the people they actively persecute. It's laughable that you tell us to "deal with it" in a thread about dealing with it.
 
Killthee said:
I haven't read the Homecoming saga but apparently it too has a gay character who suppress his sexual orientation and marries a woman for the purpose of having children and avoiding ostracism...... : /

Yeah, the homecoming saga has a gay character that marries a woman for precisely that reason.

Well, the group he was part of was in a voyage to repopulate a planet, so he had that pressure behind him too. But in the end he is glad to have been forced into heterosexuality.
 
ElFly said:
Yeah, the homecoming saga has a gay character that marries a woman for precisely that reason.

Well, the group he was part of was in a voyage to repopulate a planet, so he had that pressure behind him too. But in the end he is glad to have been forced into heterosexuality.

Really? :lol That sounds ridiculously dumb.
 
ElFly said:
Yeah, the homecoming saga has a gay character that marries a woman for precisely that reason.

Well, the group he was part of was in a voyage to repopulate a planet, so he had that pressure behind him too. But in the end he is glad to have been forced into heterosexuality.


I wonder how OSC feels about all the stupid people who breed, yet can't be bothered to raise their children, or the fact that the no fault divorce has done more to erode the sanctity of marriage than gay marriage ever would.
 
kamorra said:
Really? :lol That sounds ridiculously dumb.

Wanderin' free...

...wish I could be....

....part of that woooorrrld.

SingingAriel.jpg
 
truly101 said:
I wonder how OSC feels about all the stupid people who breed, yet can't be bothered to raise their children, or the fact that the no fault divorce has done more to erode the sanctity of marriage than gay marriage ever would.
He talks about this in one of these Ornery articles.

He says these are all bad things, but gay marriage is just much worse. I believe he then goes on to compare gay parents to sexual abusers.
 
deadatom said:
And this is how i choose to exercise my rights to DEAL WITH IT. You act like they are the ones that need protection from the people they actively persecute. It's laughable that you tell us to "deal with it" in a thread about dealing with it.
I suppose in an obtuse way posting a thread on the gaming section of a forum is dealing with it and yes actually people on both sides of the argument should be protected. Mob mentality is a spooky thing because both sides of the mob always feel they are right. I'm glad you think my observation was laughable though. You sound like you could use a laugh.

If you'd like I can suggest about a thousand ways of dealing with it that are more constructive than running in circles here where largely no one is going to care. The title of the thread is "should we boycott Shadow Complex?", I'd say that question has been answered many times over at this point and now this thread has become some kind of strange battlefield where people like you can continue to attempt to stir the pot rather than staying focused on the original intent of the OP. It's a free country though, so you are more than welcome to continue dealing with it in this thread as long as you like. Isn't that great?
 
LaserBuddha said:
Yeah I know i'm awesome. It's funny how you have an avatar that is the mascot of public broadcast while i have an avatar of what, some could consider, one of the bigger pushers of unregulated markets in the USA. Maybe we should switch avatars?

See this thread has two different conversations going on. One is of the current way that rights are denied to the minority of this nation by the majority. In a nation where everyone is equal under the law and yet we still face draconian laws to disenfranchise minorities. The people who argue for this current system to continue don't have much of an argument for thier bigoted views except "FREE SPEECH! FREE SPEECH!!".

The other conversation that is occuring is that of freemarketers who believe that the intent to cause finacial harm by not consuming products as a collective is the worst thing possible. To say anythig that could indicate a collective no to a corporate bottom line is as grave a sin as being a homophobic douche who makes money from that bottom line. Their wordy responses can be boiled down to "SHUT UP!! SHUT UP!!"

Sorry paulites and bushies. You are all intellectually and morally bankrupt. The only sad people that will have you is yourselves. How does it feel to be alone in the world? I mean you got what you wanted. You and yours of course.

IMO this whole thread should be moved to off-topic. I'm done reading unfunny, witless, right wing replys.
 
truly101 said:
I wonder how OSC feels about all the stupid people who breed, yet can't be bothered to raise their children, or the fact that the no fault divorce has done more to erode the sanctity of marriage than gay marriage ever would.

Can't erode something that never existed in the first place.

Also, who is Peter David, and where can I find his comments that everyone keeps referring to?

deadatom said:
IMO this whole thread should be moved to off-topic. I'm done reading unfunny, witless, right wing replys.

Should have been off-topic from the start. Hell, this abortion of a thread should have never existed in the first place. But we can't undo what has been done.

Also, right wing on GAF? Really? I haven't seen JayDubya post for a long time.
 
Wouldn't Card have earned any money he was entitled to already? It's not like he's getting royalties off the game sales right?
 
deadatom said:
Yeah I know i'm awesome. It's funny how you have an avatar that is the mascot of public broadcast while i have an avatar of what, some could consider, one of the bigger pushers of unregulated markets in the USA. Maybe we should switch avatars?

See this thread has two different conversations going on. One is of the current way that rights are denied to the minority of this nation by the majority. In a nation where everyone is equal under the law and yet we still face draconian laws to disenfranchise minorities. The people who argue for this current system to continue don't have much of an argument for thier bigoted views except "FREE SPEECH! FREE SPEECH!!".

The other conversation that is occuring is that of freemarketers who believe that the intent to cause finacial harm by not consuming products as a collective is the worst thing possible. To say anythig that could indicate a collective no to a corporate bottom line is as grave a sin as being a homophobic douche who makes money from that bottom line. Their wordy responses can be boiled down to "SHUT UP!! SHUT UP!!"

Sorry paulites and bushies. You are all intellectually and morally bankrupt. The only sad people that will have you is yourselves. How does it feel to be alone in the world? I mean you got what you wanted. You and yours of course.

IMO this whole thread should be moved to off-topic. I'm done reading unfunny, witless, right wing replys.

How does it feel to have a conversation with yourself?

I'm petty neutral on this whole issue. That said, you're the biggest asshat in this thread. You twist words and make up inferred meanings on others' posts to force a segue way into one of your carefully practiced political nutbar diatribes that make you look quite silly. The things you have said to people in this thread, the ridiculous, narrow-minded mocking and outright misrepresentations of anyone who even hints at disagreeing with you, all of that makes you the biggest shit-stain here. Most of your responses don't even appear to actually be responding to the posts you quote, since if you have some talking point/insult/hateful slur you want to post, you'll just pretend like a reason was given for it.

Go start a blog, as ranting serves you a HELL of a lot better than any kind of discussion.
 
Jon_Danger said:
Why punish chair for this? This is a horrible idea. If the game itself was homophobic, sure, but it isn't.

If some guys worked real hard on a KKK game, would you punish the developers for it and not buy it?

Stop calling it punishment. Do you have a PS3? If not, why punish Sony? Huh? Choosing to not buy something isn't punishment. Second, some people don't want their money going to a guy like OSC who is himself a bigot and contributes significantly to bigoted organizations. This is not a simple difference of opinion. The man fucking sucks.

I'm getting really tired of people coming in here and spouting off without doing so much as reading a few pages first.
 
Asmodai said:
Can't erode something that never existed in the first place.

Also, who is Peter David, and where can I find his comments that everyone keeps referring to?



Should have been off-topic from the start. Hell, this abortion of a thread should have never existed in the first place. But we can't undo what has been done.

Also, right wing on GAF? Really? I haven't seen JayDubya post for a long time.

Peter David is a comic book writer/the main writer for Shadow Complex. He posted his view of the situation in the comments section over at Chris Nutt's Gamesutra post and GayGamers post. Here's a repost of his comments over at GG.

Peter David said:
"My question is: Why did Peter David agree to work with Mr. Card in the first place, knowing what a blatant homophobe he is? How could he not know? It's pretty common knowledge by now."

This question was pointed out to me by friends, and I'm happy to answer it.

My disagreements with Orson's politics are hardly limited to his views on gays; we are at opposite ends of the political spectrum on pretty much everything. Why, then, did I agree to work on the game? Because among my most cherished beliefs is that , while I disagree with everything you have to say, I will defend to the death your right to say it. John Byrne has said no end of vicious things directed at me personally; I still buy his comic books because I like his work. I never, EVER, allow someone's stated opinions to impact on whether I support his work so long as those opinions don't transform the work itself into something that I have no desire to support.

"Shadow Complex" wasn't a huge paying gig for me because Chair is a pretty small outfit. But I took it because I thought Don and Laura Mustard of Chair were a nice couple of kids, and I found the story of a reluctant warrior being forced to find something worth fighting for to be a compelling narrative. By the same token, all the money in the world could not have gotten me to be involved if the story was something I personally found repellant.

If anyone wants to boycott the game and thus damage me or Don and Laura or Chair while doing nothing to change Orson's opinions, that's naturally their right. Or...

They can display the sort of tolerance for someone who is different from them that they feel is lacking in Orson and thus prove they're better than he is.

Your choice.

(Oh, and feel free to cross post this anywhere you choose.)

PAD

Peter David said:
"I do not have to "tolerate" his views to the point where I remain silent about them in order to prove how "tolerant" I am."

I think you're going to have to search a long time to find anyplace where I suggest that anyone should remain silent. And once you're done searching, you're going to have to admit that, no, I didn't say that anywhere.

What I have said, in fact, is that the answer to free speech is always more free speech. If you believe that Orson Scott Card is saying things that are wrong at the top of his lungs, then you say so at the top of yours. If you believe that he's donating money to organizations dedicated to infringing gay rights, you donate money to organizations that support them.

A society that embraces free expression depends on an unimpeded exchange of ideas.

The disconnect comes from those people who believe that boycotts are likewise a form of free expression. They're not. Boycotts are the opposite: They are designed to be punitive. To hurt someone financially. The message it sends is, "I dislike what you have to say and therefore am going to strike back at you in order to punish you for saying it." It has nothing to do with attacking the things the person says; it's about attacking the person.

That is antithetical to the notion of a free society because it promotes a chilling effect. It's the equivalent of Archie Bunker growling, "Stifle yerself," because the message it sends is, "If you say something I don't like, I'm going to find a way to hurt you." Oliver Wendell Holmes said, "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins." Boycotts have nothing to do with free speech and everything to do with trying to give the other guy a financial bloody nose.

Do you have a "right" to do it? Of course. No one is saying you don't have that right. It always bugs me when these conversations devolve into questions of having the right to do something when that's never at issue. What's at issue is whether you SHOULD do something. I CAN wear a Speedo to the community pool; trust me, though, I really shouldn't.

What's the end game here? To try and send a message to as many sources as possible that if they hire Orson Scott Card to work for them, they're going to take a financial hit? To put Card out of business? To make sure that someone is going to face financial ruin because he has opinions that differ from yours?

That is intolerant. It's inelegant. It's cheap and vicious and small-minded. And if you're okay with that, then fine. But admit that that's what you're doing.

And also be aware that I've dealt with this any number of times coming from the other direction. If you think I haven't had threats of boycott from people who want to take me down precisely because I've been openly supportive of gay rights, then you are kidding yourself. Gay fans were overjoyed about my portraying Shatterstar and Rictor as an openly gay couple in the Marvel Comics series "X-Factor." But what if I had said to myself, "Hmmm. This is going to piss off a lot of people. I could wind up taking a financial hit over this. Probably it would be best if I just stayed away from such a hot-button issue." For that matter, what if anti-gay forces organized boycotts that hurt Marvel and Marvel management said, "Okay, that's it; no more stories having anything to do with gays or gay rights." Supporters of those causes would likely decry Marvel as being cowardly and knuckling under to financial pressure from the exact same tactics that are being called for here.

So by extension, if Orson Scott Card refuses to knuckle under to scare tactics, then he's brave and noble for holding to his principles.

And you're okay with that?

How is instilling fear of financial ruin conducive to a free society and intellectual progress? Especially when you're supporting an attitude that, when it comes from the other direction, can potentially kneecap support for the very causes you hold dear?

PAD
 
KHarvey16 said:
If some guys worked real hard on a KKK game, would you punish the developers for it and not buy it?

Stop calling it punishment. Do you have a PS3? If not, why punish Sony? Huh? Choosing to not buy something isn't punishment. Second, some people don't want their money going to a guy like OSC who is himself a bigot and contributes significantly to bigoted organizations. This is not a simple difference of opinion. The man fucking sucks.

I'm getting really tired of people coming in here and spouting off without doing so much as reading a few pages first.
The difference is Sony is the company that makes the PS3 and put their effort into it. Chair put their effort into making Shadow Complex a wonderful game, not OSC.
 
Natakuu said:
The difference is Sony is the company that makes the PS3 and put their effort into it. Chair put their effort into making Shadow Complex a wonderful game, not OSC.

This is what I mean about not reading the fucking thread.
 
LaserBuddha said:
How does it feel to have a conversation with yourself?

I'm petty neutral on this whole issue. That said, you're the biggest asshat in this thread. You twist words and make up inferred meanings on others' posts to force a segue way into one of your carefully practiced political nutbar diatribes that make you look quite silly. The things you have said to people in this thread, the ridiculous, narrow-minded mocking and outright misrepresentations of anyone who even hints at disagreeing with you, all of that makes you the biggest shit-stain here. Most of your responses don't even appear to actually be responding to the posts you quote, since if you have some talking point/insult/hateful slur you want to post, you'll just pretend like a reason was given for it.

Go start a blog, as ranting serves you a HELL of a lot better than any kind of discussion.

QFT

There's nothing more amusing than seeing someone narrow minded and slandering large swaths of the population all in the name of tolerance and understanding. Way to miss the very points one is espousing.
 
Natakuu said:
The difference is Sony is the company that makes the PS3 and put their effort into it. Chair put their effort into making Shadow Complex a wonderful game, not OSC.

It's not that simple - Looking at it objectively, one tends to reach the conclusion that Chair have right wing, jingoistic views similar to those of Card. They created the Empire universe and invited Card to blow it up into a full novel, afterall.

I'd love to be proven wrong, to discover that they do not share the more deeply repellent views. I think they've created an imperfect but very endearing, entertaining and laudable game in Shadow Complex, putting all else aside for a moment.
 
Killthee said:
Peter David is a comic book writer/the main writer for Shadow Complex. He posted his view of the situation in the comments section over at Chris Nutt's Gamesutra post and GayGamers post. Here's a repost of his comments over at GG.

Thanks much.

kmfdmpig said:
QFT

There's nothing more amusing than seeing someone narrow minded and slandering large swaths of the population all in the name of tolerance and understanding. Way to miss the very points one is espousing.

LaserBuddha nailed it.
 
KHarvey16 said:
If some guys worked real hard on a KKK game, would you punish the developers for it and not buy it?

Stop calling it punishment. Do you have a PS3? If not, why punish Sony? Huh? Choosing to not buy something isn't punishment. Second, some people don't want their money going to a guy like OSC who is himself a bigot and contributes significantly to bigoted organizations. This is not a simple difference of opinion. The man fucking sucks.

I'm getting really tired of people coming in here and spouting off without doing so much as reading a few pages first.

What a stupid fucking loaded question. "OMG, if X dev made Little Girl SNAP! which is a game in which you take pictures of little girls that are naked, would you punish the developers?!?!?!"

Fact is, a bunch of people who are not Orson Scott Card worked really hard on an excellent game -- and you (and others) have so little faith in the pro-gay movement that you think hurting many indirectly to make a point to the one you *really* want to hurt will somehow make OSC think differently, or make Chair abandon OSC's ideals; which they never fucking admitted to agreeing with in the first place.

You know how movies oftentimes have commentators and then there's this nice message that says "this commentary in no way reflects the beliefs of our company, bla, bla, blah"? That's what this is. It's clear that very few people here share OSC's beliefs, and that's fine. But why be so absolutely insecure that you deem it worthy to deprive a company of a purchase -- not because their game sucks, because it doesn't -- but because you don't agree with the religious ideas of a person who's loosely associated with the product?

You do realize that every time you watch a film there is someone who worked on that film that says "thats so gay" and doesn't know what they say? Ignorance is bliss huh? Suddenly, you're not ignorant about one guy who is an outspoken religious extremist... cool -- apply that same level of investigation into other industries and I promise you'll dig up shit you never could've thought existed.

If you don't want to buy a game cuz it sucks, great. Don't. But don't have so little faith in a pro-gay movement (which I fully support, btw) by suggesting not spending 15 dollars on a XBLA title will somehow entitle you to the glory that comes with being a supporter. All it entitles you to is being a grade-A dick that doesn't support good game development when you see it.
 
TheDrowningMan said:
It's not that simple - Looking at it objectively, one tends to reach the conclusion that Chair have right wing, jingoistic views similar to those of Card. They created the Empire universe and invited Card to blow it up into a full novel, afterall.

I'd love to be proven wrong, to discover that they do not share the more deeply repellent views. I think they've created an imperfect but very endearing, entertaining and laudable game in Shadow Complex, putting all else aside for a moment.

lol, yeah dude, because when someone comes up with a story it totally means that that's what they want to happen to the world, etc -- or that they agree with it. What does that mean? Capcom wants Zombies to take over the world. Clearly they agree with that idea, which is anti-human, thus I will boycott their game. :lol :lol
 
shidoshi said:
Well, here's my thing: I'm not even of the mindset that I expect them to say "we fucked up". All somebody from Chair would have to say is...

"We understand why some people may not agree with Mr. Card, his opinions, and his actions, and we at Chair do not endorse or agree with those opinions and actions. Our decision to work with Mr. Card was simply from the standpoint that we feel he is a talented and creative writer, and felt that he would be an excellent choice to help us express the world wanted to create for Shadow Complex."

...and I'd be perfectly happy with that response, so long as it was the truth. They don't even have to apologize for Card; just be clear that Chair does not share his views on this topic (unless, you know, they do), and distance themselves from him in that regard without at the same time selling him down the river.

But when you have somebody like Peter speak as if I'M the asshole for exercising my rights as a consumer to buy or not buy whatever the hell I want for whatever reason I want, and for attacking poor little Card, not only does it not win me over, but it makes me feel even more suspicious about the whole thing.

Ridiculous. They don't HAVE to share their opinions about anything with anyone. Chair has done nothing wrong.
 
Spoo said:
Fact is, a bunch of people who are not Orson Scott Card worked really hard on an excellent game -- and you (and others) have so little faith in the pro-gay movement that you think hurting many indirectly to make a point to the one you *really* want to hurt will somehow make OSC think differently, or make Chair abandon OSC's ideals; which they never fucking admitted to agreeing with in the first place.

You know how movies oftentimes have commentators and then there's this nice message that says "this commentary in no way reflects the beliefs of our company, bla, bla, blah"? That's what this is. It's clear that very few people here share OSC's beliefs, and that's fine. But why be so absolutely insecure that you deem it worthy to deprive a company of a purchase -- not because their game sucks, because it doesn't -- but because you don't agree with the religious ideas of a person who's loosely associated with the product?

You do realize that every time you watch a film there is someone who worked on that film that says "thats so gay" and doesn't know what they say? Ignorance is bliss huh? Suddenly, you're not ignorant about one guy who is an outspoken religious extremist... cool -- apply that same level of investigation into other industries and I promise you'll dig up shit you never could've thought existed.

If you don't want to buy a game cuz it sucks, great. Don't. But don't have so little faith in a pro-gay movement (which I fully support, btw) by suggesting not spending 15 dollars on a XBLA title will somehow entitle you to the glory that comes with being a supporter. All it entitles you to is being a grade-A dick that doesn't support good game development when you see it.

Lol, if this is what you think a "fact" is, you and I will not have a long conversation. I'll tell you the facts about my own position, thank you very much. I don't give a shit about changing his mind. What I do care about is giving that reprehensible bigot a cent of my own money. Fuck him, he can't have it. And you know what? I don't owe Chair a goddamn thing. They don't deserve a purchase just because they worked on a game. I'm not punishing anyone, I'm just not buying their game that they decided would benefit from an involvement with that man.

I'm sure those who benefit from my patronage include people just as vile as this asshole. You know what the difference is? I don't always know about it. This time I do, and I can make a decision about where I spend my money.

This is what happens when you fail to think about something hard enough. Give it another go.
 
Spoo said:
lol, yeah dude, because when someone comes up with a story it totally means that that's what they want to happen to the world, etc -- or that they agree with it. What does that mean? Capcom wants Zombies to take over the world. Clearly they agree with that idea, which is anti-human, thus I will boycott their game. :lol :lol

Oh dear.

Empire doesn't "contain" right-wing jingoism, it glorifies it. "LIBRULS BAD! RED STATE WARRIORS GOOD! DROOOOOOL...!" Evil, fascist, radical LIBRULS! Republicans all moderates!

It does not seek to be objective. It's a right-wing mastabatory fantasy which could easily be ghost-written by Sean Hannity. It is tiresome right-wing rhetoric in excelsis.
 
At the same time this would be a good thread to do some follow up..
I mean..I know of a few users around here that are quite active with marches for gay rights, donations, etc..so seeing them around here is normal..

But some of the ones that are saying "Aargh I'm not buying this game because of that"..it would be cool if they kept us up to date with other things that they've been doing, on similar matters.

I'm saying..if you're going to fight for a cause, then fight it..fully, be part of it because you believe in it... not just sometimes..or when I can or when I have some time, or when it's cool..or because others told you to..

Don't be all "I'm not giving $15 to Card"..to then don't even donate one cent to other needs...
 
fernoca said:
At the same time this would be a good thread to do some follow up..
I mean..I know of a few users around here that are quite active with marches for gay rights, donations, etc..so seeing them around here is normal..

But some of the ones that are saying "Aargh I'm not buying this game because of that"..it would be cool if they kept us up to date with other things that they've been doing, on similar matters.

I'm saying..if you're going to fight for a cause, then fight it..fully, be part of it because you believe in it... not just sometimes..or when I can or when I have some time, or when it's cool..or because others told you to..

Don't be all "I'm not giving $15 to Card"..to then don't even donate one cent to other needs...

The fuck? This is a decision to not actively support, financially, a man who represents something you disagree with. I don't know what twisted logic you used to make that somehow necessitate donations and marches to prove one's self worthy.
 
KHarvey16 said:
This is what I mean about not reading the fucking thread.
:lol Keep your assumptions to yourself.

TheDrowningMan said:
It's not that simple - Looking at it objectively, one tends to reach the conclusion that Chair have right wing, jingoistic views similar to those of Card. They created the Empire universe and invited Card to blow it up into a full novel, afterall.

I'd love to be proven wrong, to discover that they do not share the more deeply repellent views. I think they've created an imperfect but very endearing, entertaining and laudable game in Shadow Complex, putting all else aside for a moment.
It just seems to me that the 'objective' viewpoint you're referring to makes leaps in logic. Simply because you work with someone does not mean you share their ideals and beliefs. A business is made up of many individuals and I assure you they won't all be of like minds. Condemning Chair for working with Card promotes discrimination based on one's beliefs and while I don't agree with Card, he is allowed to think what he wants.
 
Natakuu said:
:lol Keep your assumptions to yourself.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. My choices where either you didn't read or you can't comprehend simple english sentences. Did I pick the wrong one?
 
TheDrowningMan said:
Oh dear.

Empire doesn't "contain" right-wing jingoism, it glorifies it. "LIBRULS BAD! RED STATE WARRIORS GOOD! DROOOOOOL...!" Evil, fascist, radical LIBRULS! Republicans all moderates!

It does not seek to be objective. It's a right-wing mastabatory fantasy which could easily be ghost-written by Sean Hannity. It is tiresome right-wing rhetoric in excelsis.

Not really talkin' about Empire bro. I'm talking about the game; which -- oh, it may be "based" on Empire -- but the storyline in Shadow Complex is about as badly produced, acted, or otherwise explained that it's really pushing it to suggest it can somehow become a proponent of Card's endless desire to dominate our world with Hannity's lol. That's probably giving it a bit too much cred.

It is, however, a very solid Metroidvania-style game.
 
Natakuu said:
:lol Keep your assumptions to yourself.


It just seems to me that the 'objective' viewpoint you're referring to makes leaps in logic. Simply because you work with someone does not mean you share their ideals and beliefs. A business is made up of many individuals and I assure you they won't all be of like minds. Condemning Chair for working with Card promotes discrimination based on one's beliefs and while I don't agree with Card, he is allowed to think what he wants.

No. It's not that they work with him, they created the laughable right-wing fantasy that they've had him embellish. They created that world and decided that the right-wing extremist Card was the best person to bring their supa-dupa Republican dream world to life.
 
KHarvey16 said:
The fuck? This is a decision to not actively support, financially, a man who represents something you disagree with. I don't know what twisted logic you used to make that somehow necessitate donations and marches to prove one's self worthy.
No..all I'm saying in general (wasn't quoting anyone) is that, I do hope that if people decide to don't support Card by not buying Shadow Complex, at least continue their stance..that don't support this "cause" because "I was told on NeoGAF"..or just do it this one time, but not do anything else in years.
 
old and busted: "boycotting the game will hurt the devs a lot more than it will hurt OSC"

new hotness: "accidentally releasing the full game as a demo will do a lot more to hurt sales than any little boycott could"
 
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