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[Deleted member 17706]

old and busted: "boycotting the game will hurt the devs a lot more than it will hurt OSC"

new hotness: "accidentally releasing the full game as a demo will do a lot more to hurt sales than any little boycott could"

The demo is the full game? I purchased the full version while I was playing through the demo, but does it not stop or something?

 

[LaserBuddha]

The demo is the full game? I purchased the full version while I was playing through the demo, but does it not stop or something?

I can't be arsed to look into it more, but apparently if you press start at the end of the demo or something, it lets you keep playing indefinitely. Don't know what the limitations are or if its been fixed yet, but basically you can, at least, finish the entire game in one sitting if you are so inclined.

 

[TheDrowningMan]

Not really talkin' about Empire bro. I'm talking about the game; which -- oh, it may be "based" on Empire -- but the storyline in Shadow Complex is about as badly produced, acted, or otherwise explained that it's really pushing it to suggest it can somehow become a proponent of Card's endless desire to dominate our world with Hannity's lol. That's probably giving it a bit too much cred.

It is, however, a very solid Metroidvania-style game.

That wasn't really my point - Moreso that Chair aren't necessarily hard working innocents given that they created the Empire world and scenario and brought Card on board to bring it to life. I know that the game contains very little of that, but it's the reality behind the idea that's being floated that it's "wrong" to "punish" Chair because they're innocent and have hardly any involvement with Card that I'm trying to make a little clearer - clearly their relationship with him runs very deeply.

As I've said before, I'd be happy to be proven wrong and for them to distance themselves from some of his more extreme views. I don't care whether they're ideologically conservative or this or that or whatever, it's possible to be so without being a kook, of course. Kooks just make much more noise!

As for the game, you're right - And yes, it's a good offering. Edge's review is pretty good, I tend to agree with the 7/10 they've given it though it nuzzles towards an 8 at times. As I've said previously, taken solely as a game and completely ignoring all else, it's a laudable effort.

 

[deadatom]

QFT

There's nothing more amusing than seeing someone narrow minded and slandering large swaths of the population all in the name of tolerance and understanding. Way to miss the very points one is espousing.

Point out the areas where I slandered anyone that didn't deserve it please. Point out any time where i advocated "tolerance and understanding" please. See youre alil cheerleader darling aren't ya? Half that particular comment was a general comment not directed at anyone except, perhaps, people such as yourself. I might be an asshole, but it's only for people like you. You deserve it.

You seem to imply that i'm a hypocrit when i'm not. See i'm a bloody partisan with my own bloody politics. You are just a darling cheerleader. All the points i put up still remain unchallenge as you and your fellow toss ad-hominems.

You might say "well you do the same?!?" . In which i will tell you that I don't. I actually put forward an argument mixed in with my accurate conservative descriptions. If you don't like it, refute it!

 

[Natakuu]

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. My choices where either you didn't read or you can't comprehend simple english sentences. Did I pick the wrong one?

:lol Keep on being an asshole for no reason, it shows you must really know what you're talking about!

No. It's not that they work with him, they created the laughable right-wing fantasy that they've had him embellish. They created that world and decided that the right-wing extremist Card was the best person to bring their supa-dupa Republican dream world to life.

In Shadow Complex this is all displayed? This thread is about boycotting the game, after all..not the book.

 

[mollipen]

Ridiculous. They don't HAVE to share their opinions about anything with anyone. Chair has done nothing wrong.

Great, you're right; and I don't HAVE to buy their game.

Did you even read my post, by the way, to know what I was saying and what I was responding to? The question was what Chair could (or should) do in response to this discussion. A poster said they should apologize for their connection to Card, and I said I don't think they need to do that, but should at least clarify if they actively support the same ideas and organizations that Card does.

Do they need to do anything? No, of course not. But when people raise serious concerns about your company or the people your company associates with, it doesn't, you know, hurt to maybe say something about the situation. They could take five minutes to say basically what I wrote in my post (if that is the truth of their situation), and a whole lot of people who do have concerns over their connection to Card might now have those concerns anymore.

 

[Spoo]

I'm sure those who benefit from my patronage include people just as vile as this asshole...

...This is what happens when you fail to think about something hard enough. Give it another go.

Yeah, man, fuck Epic, and those Utah-based devs. They're just as evil and despicable as OSC himself; it's not much of a stretch to make that assumption, right? No. None of those people could possibly feel the same way you do about the pro-gay movement, and even if some of them did, you should hurt OSC in the name of it without consideration about those who would agree with your stance.

Yeah, man, this is what happens when I'm not thinking hard enough. Your generalization of what the majority of Chair must think is about as disgusting as OSC's stance against homosexuality to me. Of course, OSC puts his money where his mouth is -- you, well, you spend nothing and call yourself a goddamn hero. :lol

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

I kinda like "Won't somebody please think of the starving developers!?"

I'm going to use that around here from now on when anyone doesn't buy a game I like.

And when anyone buys a game I don't like, I'm going to remind them they are statistically likely to be supporting someone vile.

I can now troll anyone with new special socially justified methods! This thread has proven worthwhile after all!

 

[HowellJenkins]

wow now im definetley not buying

 

[KHarvey16]

:lol Keep on being an asshole for no reason, it shows you must really know what you're talking about!

You tried to argue OSC didn't contribute anything to the game and ignored the important part of the analogy. The man benefits from sales of the game, just like Sony from sales of the PS3. Not so hard to understand.

Yeah, man, fuck Epic, and those Utah-based devs. They're just as evil and despicable as OSC himself; it's not much of a stretch to make that assumption, right? No. None of those people could possibly feel the same way you do about the pro-gay movement, and even if some of them did, you should hurt OSC in the name of it without consideration about those who would agree with your stance.

Yeah, man, this is what happens when I'm not thinking hard enough. Your generalization of what the majority of Chair must think is about as disgusting as OSC's stance against homosexuality to me. Of course, OSC puts his money where his mouth is -- you, well, you spend nothing and call yourself a goddamn hero. :lol

You been drinking tonight? You don't make any fucking sense. You're inventing arguments I didn't make and the ones you've fabricated for yourself are completely asinine. Call myself a hero :lol This is like strawmen 101. Amateurs.

 

[daycru]

The really shocking thing that came out of all of this was the fact that it took multiple people to come up with the story for Shadow Complex.

Bad guys in robot suits want to take over San Francisco. Your girl is kidnapped. You upgrade abilities by finding pieces of your own robot suit.

It was that big of an undertaking?

 

[Spoo]

You been drinking tonight? You don't make any fucking sense. You're inventing arguments I didn't make and the ones you've fabricated for yourself are completely asinine. Call myself a hero :lol This is like strawmen 101. Amateurs.

Yes, I have actually had a pint tonight.

Beyond that, I must've misinterpreted you when you said your patronage goes to (paraphrased) vile assholes like OSC. I thought you meant to suggest that many of those vile assholes were Chair employees; but it's possible you were just referring to other people in the film/entertainment industry in general. Fair enough.

So no, I didn't mean to fabricate anything. Would you actually have purchased Shadow Complex had it not been for this new revelation about Card? If not, well, then we've been wasting each other's time I guess. If so, I simply don't understand why you'd hurt other people you can't very well judge in the name of one man who simply holds a different opinion than you do. You and I can certainly both agree it's a fucked up opinion, but I guess we have seriously different ways of handling that.

 

[soldat7]

Great, you're right; and I don't HAVE to buy their game.

Did you even read my post, by the way, to know what I was saying and what I was responding to? The question was what Chair could (or should) do in response to this discussion. A poster said they should apologize for their connection to Card, and I said I don't think they need to do that, but should at least clarify if they actively support the same ideas and organizations that Card does.

Do they need to do anything? No, of course not. But when people raise serious concerns about your company or the people your company associates with, it doesn't, you know, hurt to maybe say something about the situation. They could take five minutes to say basically what I wrote in my post (if that is the truth of their situation), and a whole lot of people who do have concerns over their connection to Card might now have those concerns anymore.

No video game developer should ever feel compelled to disclose their political, religious, or social views. Let's not be McCarthyistic here.

 

[Natakuu]

You tried to argue OSC didn't contribute anything to the game and ignored the important part of the analogy. The man benefits from sales of the game, just like Sony from sales of the PS3. Not so hard to understand.

I didn't ignore the important part, you just used a broken analogy in the first place. You're not punishing Chair when you don't buy their game, you're punishing Chair when you boycott their game because of someone associated with the game that is in some way connected to the weak and non-offensive story contained within said game.

I mean really..

If some guys worked real hard on a KKK game, would you punish the developers for it and not buy it?

Do you honestly feel that scenario and this are the same? Really?

Edit: Thought I'd clarify something. I am fine with those who have chosen to boycott the game, and you have every right to do so. I simply feel it's not the best course of action.

 

[neoism]

One of the dumbest threads I've ever seen on gaf!

The game is fucking awesome! Plain and simple!

 

[KHarvey16]

Yes, I have actually had a pint tonight.

Beyond that, I must've misinterpreted you when you said your patronage goes to (paraphrased) vile assholes like OSC. I thought you meant to suggest that many of those vile assholes were Chair employees; but it's possible you were just referring to other people in the film/entertainment industry in general. Fair enough.

So no, I didn't mean to fabricate anything. Would you actually have purchased Shadow Complex had it not been for this new revelation about Card? If not, well, then we've been wasting each other's time I guess. If so, I simply don't understand why you'd hurt other people you can't very well judge in the name of one man who simply holds a different opinion than you do. You and I can certainly both agree it's a fucked up opinion, but I guess we have seriously different ways of handling that.

Yes, it's a possibility I would have owned the game. Do you always consider the people you are hurting when you don't purchase a game? Just because such and such game doesn't have one particular feature you prefer, that's enough for you to deprive those hard working men and women a sale? Surely they tried really hard, so even if it's not so great, you can still help them out a bit, right?

Again, I'm not punishing anyone. The responsibility lies with the development team and the publisher to convince me I need to spend money on their game. Any number of decisions can affect that, be it the story, what the player does or who is involved with the project and who benefits from its success. The decision to work with OSC is no less valid a reason to not buy a game then is a decision to not have regenerating health or a save anywhere feature.

 

[charsace]

After reading the op I feel bad because I purchased this game.

You should have made this thread earlier man.

 

[KHarvey16]

I didn't ignore the important part, you just used a broken analogy in the first place. You're not punishing Chair when you don't buy their game, you're punishing Chair when you boycott their game because of someone associated with the game that is in some way connected to the weak and non-offensive story contained within said game.

I mean really..
Do you honestly feel that scenario and this are the same? Really?

Edit: Thought I'd clarify something. I am fine with those who have chosen to boycott the game, and you have every right to do so. I simply feel it's not the best course of action.

A boycott isn't punishment either. What is a boycott, anyway? It's a collection of people who made the decision to not support something. Whether it's one person or a million it's still individuals making their own choices. A boycott just means they all discussed it and organized themselves first.

As for the analogy, it applies to the situation. Albeit in a specific way I didn't think needed much explaining. Note I'm not making the comparison based on scope.

 

[soldat7]

One of the dumbest threads I've ever seen on gaf!

The game is fucking awesome! Plain and simple!

I have personally learned a lot about this issue. There are some surprisingly great posts scattered about. This thread has made me think long and hard about an issue that I otherwise might have not devoted much time to.

I do find it extremely disappointing that the two extreme positions have a hard time coming to the negotiation table to work something out. I don't think the issue is black and white, and I don't think the solution will be black or white.

 

[ZephyrFate]

One of the dumbest threads I've ever seen on gaf!

The game is fucking awesome! Plain and simple!

You have entirely glossed over and generalized this entire thread into an imbecilic statement. Go back to grade school.

I recommend that to most of GAF, actually...

 

[Spoo]

Yes, it's a possibility I would have owned the game. Do you always consider the people you are hurting when you don't purchase a game? Just because such and such game doesn't have one particular feature you prefer, that's enough for you to deprive those hard working men and women a sale? Surely they tried really hard, so even if it's not so great, you can still help them out a bit, right?

Again, I'm not punishing anyone. The responsibility lies with the development team and the publisher to convince me I need to spend money on their game. Any number of decisions can affect that, be it the story, what the player does or who is involved with the project and who benefits from its success. The decision to work with OSC is no less valid a reason to not buy a game then is a decision to not have regenerating health or a save anywhere feature.

I primarily follow a few simple guidelines; if a game is good, I buy it. That of course is typically dictacted by reviews, word of mouth, what-have-you; but that decision is, I assure you, based on the merit of the game and nothing else. I honestly used to be of the opinion that homosexuality was wrong (it's difficult to break out of that opinion when you spend most of your time in Utah, but I did). Back then, I had purchased Clive Barker's "Undying." When I learned he was gay, at the time, I was fairly upset and convinced I would hate the game. Lo and behold, after hours with it, I discovered that being homosexual doth not a bad game make. I suspect the true can be said for someone who dislikes homosexuals, and makes games.

Obviously, living in Utah, I hate to see a local dev. house catch flack for a good game, even when that game is associated to a man who has ideas I don't agree with.

You may say you're not intending to "punish" Chair, but the act of "boycotting" a product simply because you dislike a person behind it (but not the product itself), is rather like saying you prefer not to buy a particular brand of soap because a shareholder hates homosexuals. The soap was likely not made by that man, and it likely cleans your body -- so why fight against that?

Of course, it's your choice to put your money where you like. But the idea that a person should be a deciding factor in the purchase as opposed to what you're actually purchasing...? It's backwards to me.

 

[Asmodai]

Of course, it's your choice to put your money where you like. But the idea that a person should be a deciding factor in the purchase as opposed to what you're actually purchasing...? It's backwards to me.

Well said. In this thread your reasoning will probably be lost amongst the insanity, so I thought I'd point out that I agree with you.

As I've said in some threads regarding nerd rage against Activision and Kotick, I could care less if Lucifer himself developed the game, so long as the game is good. I buy good games, I don't care who they're developed by.

You have entirely glossed over and generalized this entire thread into an imbecilic statement. Go back to grade school.

I recommend that to most of GAF, actually...

To his credit, this thread could be legitimately and accurately described with a single word.

The question is what word?

My guess? Clusterfuck.

 

[Spiritreaver]

Never really considered buying this game, now I won't even give it a second thought. Won't even check out what the game is about.

 

[Flavius]

This thread has made me think long and hard about an issue that I otherwise might have not devoted much time to.

I say give Card the shaft, that nut! Screw homophobia...rub it out! Time to meatus your maker, Orson!

Spoiler

Penis!

 

[Natakuu]

A boycott isn't punishment either. What is a boycott, anyway? It's a collection of people who made the decision to not support something. Whether it's one person or a million it's still individuals making their own choices. A boycott just means they all discussed it and organized themselves first.

As for the analogy, it applies to the situation. Albeit in a specific way I didn't think needed much explaining. Note I'm not making the comparison based on scope.

You're trying to say that comparing boycotting Shadow Complex based on it's affiliation with Card(despite their being no propaganda in the game itself) is the same as someone simply not buying a PS3?

Card has disgusting views, but he's allowed to think them. On top of that Shadow Complex is not something he created to spread his ideals. Chair created Shadow Complex. When you decide not to buy Shadow Complex because of Card, that's ineffective in my opinion. Boycott any of his books that actually display his ideals, or donate money to an organization you deem worthy. If you start not buying products because someone with ideals you don't like might make money along the way you might as well give up on buying anything. I just think these efforts are being focused on the wrong course of action.

 

[KHarvey16]

I primarily follow a few simple guidelines; if a game is good, I buy it. That of course is typically dictacted by reviews, word of mouth, what-have-you; but that decision is, I assure you, based on the merit of the game and nothing else.

And a game not being good can surely be the result of poor decisions being made by the developers.

I honestly used to be of the opinion that homosexuality was wrong (it's difficult to break out of that opinion when you spend most of your time in Utah, but I did). Back then, I had purchased Clive Barker's "Undying." When I learned he was gay, at the time, I was fairly upset and convinced I would hate the game. Lo and behold, after hours with it, I discovered that being homosexual doth not a bad game make. I suspect the true can be said for someone who dislikes homosexuals, and makes games.

I have no argument about the quality of the games content.

Obviously, living in Utah, I hate to see a local dev. house catch flack for a good game, even when that game is associated to a man who has ideas I don't agree with.

You may say you're not intending to "punish" Chair, but the act of "boycotting" a product simply because you dislike a person behind it (but not the product itself), is rather like saying you prefer not to buy a particular brand of soap because a shareholder hates homosexuals. The soap was likely not made by that man, and it likely cleans your body -- so why fight against that?

No one is boycotting because they don't like him. People are boycotting because they don't want their money being used by him to further his archaic, ignorant, bigoted viewpoint. If a man who stood to benefit from sales of soap sat on committees purposed with denying basic rights to human beings, you bet your ass I wouldn't let my money go to further that cause.

Of course, it's your choice to put your money where you like. But the idea that a person should be a deciding factor in the purchase as opposed to what you're actually purchasing...? It's backwards to me.

Not if you try and think about the arguments people are making. They are straight forward and easy to understand. You can disagree with the decision to not buy the game but you cannot deny the motivation for not doing so is perfectly understandable and valid.

 

[KHarvey16]

You're trying to say that comparing boycotting Shadow Complex based on it's affiliation with Card(despite their being no propaganda in the game itself) is the same as someone simply not buying a PS3?

Not buying Shadow Complex is the same "punishment" as not buying a PS3, yes.

Card has disgusting views, but he's allowed to think them.

Of course he is.

On top of that Shadow Complex is not something he created to spread his ideals.

You are probably right. No argument there from me.

Chair created Shadow Complex.

With OSC's help. He contributed, he will benefit. Is this something you wish to contend?

When you decide not to buy Shadow Complex because of Card, that's ineffective in my opinion.

Ineffective in my desire to not give money to OSC? No, I think it's quite effective.

Boycott any of his books that actually display his ideals, or donate money to an organization you deem worthy. If you start not buying products because someone with ideals you don't like might make money along the way you might as well give up on buying anything. I just think these efforts are being focused on the wrong course of action.

Those are all fine things to do. They are all just as valid as not buying Shadow Complex so you prevent your money from supporting a person who holds an opinion antithetical to a free society and furthering said agenda.

Again though, this is a case where we know what someone who will get money from our support does and thinks. We have the information to make an informed decision this time.

 

[neoism]

You have entirely glossed over and generalized this entire thread into an imbecilic statement. Go back to grade school.

I recommend that to most of GAF, actually...

Your right I read the OP and skimmed the thread, I agree %1000 OSC is fucking retarded. He probably gets veeeerrry little money from every game sold, if any at all!
I honestly didn't know much about him, before reading to OP, I'd have still bought the game though, so whatever! Good thing I didn't buy the game for the story, nor did I ever plan on buying any of his novels!

 

[Natakuu]

Well, as I've said before everyone has the right to do as they will and if they feel boycotting this game is their way to speak out then by all means go ahead, just makes more sense to perhaps boycott something that actually has a negative message as opposed to this game lacking such a negative message, or any real in-depth story for that matter:lol

 

[charsace]

Just read some more of this thread and a lot of people just seem stupid to me. Some of you seem to be having a hard time understanding what you read or you just choose to ignore certain things.

Some of you also don't understand how easy it is for people to influence votes.

 

[KHarvey16]

Well, as I've said before everyone has the right to do as they will and if they feel boycotting this game is their way to speak out then by all means go ahead, just makes more sense to perhaps boycott something that actually has a negative message as opposed to this game lacking such a negative message, or any real in-depth story for that matter:lol

It's like I'm speaking another language. It's not about speaking out for fuck's sake.

READ

 

[RadarScope1]

Peter David's comments are way off the mark. He's confusing a personal decision by probably a few dozen people not to buy with a mass, organized boycott. Even if the OP used the word 'boycott' that clearly is not going to happen and in the end, I suspect, Shadow Complex will do quite well - right up there with Castle Crashers and Geo Wars 2. He's writing from a place of anger and is acting like he's going to lose his entire livelihood over this. I highly doubt it. It'll sell - this has just raised questions about Chair, that's all.

I keep coming back to this: What does Chair have to say? The conversation has become too big for them to ignore. No way they aren't reading all of this stuff today. What do they have to say for themselves??

 

[Natakuu]

It's like I'm speaking another language. It's not about speaking out for fuck's sake.

READ

God damn you sure are one shitty person:lol You really don't need to get so offended. Let me rephrase this so that you can understand a bit better what I meant, as I suppose "speak out" might not have been the best phrasing. I get that you disagree with Card and that you are "informed" on the matter. Thus, because you know he is making some amount of money though you have no information as to how much, you have chosen not to buy Shadow Complex. Congratulations. As a side note, if this isn't about speaking out why the fuck have you wasted so much time in this thread? It sure seems like you're making an effort to 'speak out'

 

[soldat7]

I keep coming back to this: What does Chair have to say? The conversation has become too big for them to ignore. No way they aren't reading all of this stuff today. What do they have to say for themselves??

Again, why should they feel compelled to say anything? Why is bullying them for their stance something we should seek? It's eerie.

 

[KHarvey16]

God damn you sure are one shitty person:lol You really don't need to get so offended. Let me rephrase this so that you can understand a bit better what I meant, as I suppose "speak out" might not have been the best phrasing. I get that you disagree with Card and that you are "informed" on the matter. Thus, because you know he is making some amount of money though you have no information as to how much, you have chosen not to buy Shadow Complex. Congratulations. As a side note, if this isn't about speaking out why the fuck have you wasted so much time in this thread? It sure seems like you're making an effort to 'speak out'

People like you are the reason I'm participating. People who refuse to read before commenting, people who refuse to exert an ounce of effort in trying to understand a position and people who refuse to listen even after having read. The fact you keep mischaracterizing the reasoning behind not buying this game is all the proof I need that you either can't read or are completely failing to grasp a word many of us have been saying.

If you'd like to participate, by all means, participate. But don't half ass it.

Again, why should they feel compelled to say anything? Why is bullying them for their stance something we should seek? It's eerie.

It's not bullying. If a consumer decides to make the indulgence of a question a condition of their purchase, they are absolutely free to do so. They can answer or not.

 

[Natakuu]

People like you are the reason I'm participating.

'People like me' huh, keep up the derogatory language, it really enhances your posts!

People who refuse to read before commenting, people who refuse to exert an ounce of effort in trying to understand a position and people who refuse to listen even after having read.

I have read, I already stated I understand that people might feel more comfortable not buying the game, in fact I did so way back at the beginning of the fucking thread. Perhaps you should pay more attention and read.

The fact you keep mischaracterizing the reasoning behind not buying this game is all the proof I need that you either can't read or are completely failing to grasp a word many of us have been saying.

I understand why you aren't buying it, I simply feel there are better alternatives to get your point across. I like the use of that derogatory language though, keep it up! Everyone knows getting shitty is the only way to express an opinion.

If you'd like to participate, by all means, participate. But don't half ass it.

I haven't been half assing it, but perhaps I'll stop participating anyways. It's obvious you're simply going to misconstrue everything I say.

 

[KHarvey16]

'People like me' huh, keep up the derogatory language, it really enhances your posts!


I have read, I already stated I understand that people might feel more comfortable not buying the game, in fact I did so way back at the beginning of the fucking thread. Perhaps you should pay more attention and read.


I understand why you aren't buying it, I simply feel there are better alternatives to get your point across. I like the use of that derogatory language though, keep it up! Everyone knows getting shitty is the only way to express an opinion.


I haven't been half assing it, but perhaps I'll stop participating anyways. It's obvious you're simply going to misconstrue everything I say.

You are constantly demonstrating that you don't fully grasp what it is we're saying. I cannot fathom how on earth you can argue that not buying a game is a bad way to prevent OSC from using my money to promote bigotry and the erosion of human rights in the US. That is the stated goal here, not whatever strawman you've decided to erect.

 

[seat]

I can't be arsed to look into it more, but apparently if you press start at the end of the demo or something, it lets you keep playing indefinitely. Don't know what the limitations are or if its been fixed yet, but basically you can, at least, finish the entire game in one sitting if you are so inclined.

I saw the video of someone doing this and it sucks. I can't believe no one caught this exploit before the release of the game.

 

[Natakuu]

You are constantly demonstrating that you don't fully grasp what it is we're saying. I cannot fathom how on earth you can argue that not buying a game is a bad way to prevent OSC from using my money to promote bigotry and the erosion of human rights in the US. That is the stated goal here, not whatever strawman you've decided to erect.

I grasp what you're saying. You don't grasp that it's in no way the best way to try to do something about the spreading of Card's ideals. I don't fault your disapproval of what he promotes, I fault the way you are 'preventing' it.

 

[RadarScope1]

Again, why should they feel compelled to say anything? Why is bullying them for their stance something we should seek? It's eerie.

To clarify, I'm not demanding or insisting they do anything. It's just that generally, when a buzz like this begins to break, the best thing for a company do to is address it, even with some bland statement about not caring about what people have to say. Pretty much everyone in business or who's ever dealt with the media knows that "No comment" is one of the wost possible answers to anything (unless you're dealing with pending litigation).

It's just an assumption on my part, that's all.

 

[KHarvey16]

I grasp what you're saying. You don't grasp that it's in no way the best way to try to do something about the spreading of Card's ideals. I don't fault your disapproval of what he promotes, I fault the way you are 'preventing' it.

It's still a strawman. The goal here is to not give OSC money. People don't want him using their money to affect the sort of changes he seeks to affect. Keeping that goal in mind, not buying the game is precisely the way to achieve it.

 

[Natakuu]

It's still a strawman. The goal here is to not give OSC money. People don't want him using their money to affect the sort of changes he seeks to affect. Keeping that goal in mind, not buying the game is precisely the way to achieve it.

But that's the problem, it isn't. If Shadow Complex sold 0 copies and was the biggest bomb of all time, do you really think he wouldn't continue to promote his ideals? I get that you don't want to give any money to him at all. As I have said several times, that is fine continue on with your boycott. I simply feel if you're going to make such a stink about it, then why aren't you attempting to do more?

 

[Technoob]

This thread is incredible

 

[KHarvey16]

But that's the problem, it isn't. If Shadow Complex sold 0 copies and was the biggest bomb of all time, do you really think he wouldn't continue to promote his ideals? I get that you don't want to give any money to him at all. As I have said several times, that is fine continue on with your boycott. I simply feel if you're going to make such a stink about it, then why aren't you attempting to do more?

Not buying his products is the only way I have to make sure my money isn't used by him to further his agenda. Obviously he's going to do what he's gonna do anyway, I can't do anything about that. But I can make sure he doesn't do it with my money.

The "stink" I'm making is not the result of wanting to promote a boycott or my conviction but the absolute frustration with those who mischaracterize, marginalize, misrepresent or just plain don't understand the points that are being made.

 

[Natakuu]

This thread is incredible

You know, I agree. This thread is incredible for many different reasons:lol And with that, I think I'll leave.

 

[sonicmj1]

That wasn't really my point - Moreso that Chair aren't necessarily hard working innocents given that they created the Empire world and scenario and brought Card on board to bring it to life. I know that the game contains very little of that, but it's the reality behind the idea that's being floated that it's "wrong" to "punish" Chair because they're innocent and have hardly any involvement with Card that I'm trying to make a little clearer - clearly their relationship with him runs very deeply.

Clearly it does. They worked with him on Advent Rising, a game that saw little critical or commercial success. They returned to him again for assistance with the next game they were producing.

That doesn't imply any agreement with his politics. It implies they find him to be a very good business partner to work with. Their previous relationship makes their continued partnership more probable. And given that they basically go out of their way to distance the antagonist organization in Shadow Complex from its politics (it's never referred to as anything other than the "Restoration"), and given that they presumably had plenty of creative control over the product they produced, their decision not to involve any sort of politics in Shadow Complex should say something about how they feel. The anecdote involving Donald Mustard, contained in the Gamasutra article linked in the OP, may not mean much, but it surely says something.

That said, I don't know what it means to you if Chair actually did have a deep involvement with Card in creating the Empire universe. Would that make them "guilty"? Guilty of what crime?

 

[Technoob]

Would that make them "guilty"? Guilty of what crime?

According to some posts in this thread, they'd be guilty of making fiction that has some un PC themes, and that is unforgivable.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

I have to say I disagree wholly with what PAD is saying. It isn't "mean spirited" or "narrow minded" to deny funds to a company whose choice in hiring led to this debacle.

Regardless of what ideals Chair may or may not hold, the fact of the matter is that they paid OSC to write novels for their gameworld. By "punishing" Chair as PAD would say, I would hope that they might get the idea that having business with OSC isn't good for their bottom line, and sever ties.

Whether that happens in reality, is another story. Regardless, if I choose not to purchase SC based on the fact that Chair hired OSC in the first place, it is possible that might happen.

And as far as I am concerned, the less business OSC gets, the better.

I would also like to make it absolutely clear, that OSC is perfectly able to keep his viewpoints. My issue lies in the fact that he actively is part of an organisation that uses large amounts of money in attempt to strip people of rights. If OSC simply spouted his silly views wherever he wished and was not involved financially or politicly, then I would not care. That's his prerogative.

Just as my prerogative is to never purchase goods or services that OSC has had a hand in, whether directly by writing them, or indirectly by being hired by a company for other services.

 

[deadatom]

You're trying to say that comparing boycotting Shadow Complex based on it's affiliation with Card(despite their being no propaganda in the game itself) is the same as someone simply not buying a PS3?

Card has disgusting views, but he's allowed to think them. On top of that Shadow Complex is not something he created to spread his ideals. Chair created Shadow Complex. When you decide not to buy Shadow Complex because of Card, that's ineffective in my opinion. Boycott any of his books that actually display his ideals, or donate money to an organization you deem worthy. If you start not buying products because someone with ideals you don't like might make money along the way you might as well give up on buying anything. I just think these efforts are being focused on the wrong course of action.

That's a pretty intellectually lazy argument. You are advocating that a person consume with no consequence to thier concessius or principals. Because, after all, one day in the future they might buy something that benifits some dickhead monetary wise without knowing. Then they will have egg on thier face!

The sum of your message is "maintaining principals is a futile effort. So instead of not giving this terrible man money, buy the game and donate more of your hard earned money to buy an indulgence from a gay charity. Besides, you can't ever stop buying crap! So why start now?"

That's a pretty lazy paraphrasing of a pretty intellectually lazy argument.

 

[Gantz]

While we're at we should boycott ever horror game and movie based on H.P. Lovecraft's work as well. He was a well known racist.