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[Coins]

:lol don't be mad b/c your thread is full of fail. If you go and research products and services you use, you'll find that you support a lot of despicable people and institutions. Even the banks that you use now may have profited off of slavery. Good luck w/the boycott.

Full of fail?

I helped start a discussion in which a story was made at Gamasutra.

This discussion has spread all over other gaming sites. Go ahead and google "boycott Shadow Complex" and see how much this thread and the Gamasutra article have been linked around.

I helped show many people in this thread the vileness of OSC and they have decided not to give him their money.

RebelFM talked about this and some of their hosts decided to skip the game.

I helped get Peter David, the main writer for Shadow Complex, to admit that OSC is an asshole.

People who were only familiar with OSC the writer now know OSC the homophobe.

You say full of fail?

 

[Asmodai]

Full of fail?

I helped start a discussion in which a story was made at Gamasutra.

This discussion has spread all over other gaming sites. Go ahead and google "boycott Shadow Complex" and see how much this thread and the Gamasutra article have been linked around.

I helped show many people in this thread the vileness of OSC and they have decided not to give him their money.

RebelFM talked about this and some of their hosts decided to skip the game.

I helped get Peter David, the main writer for Shadow Complex, to admit that OSC is an asshole.

People who were only familiar with OSC the writer now know OSC the homophobe.

You say full of fail?

Keep patting yourself on the back, why don't you? :lol

 

[Mercury Fred]

Full of fail?

I helped start a discussion in which a story was made at Gamasutra.

This discussion has spread all over other gaming sites. Go ahead and google "boycott Shadow Complex" and see how much this thread and the Gamasutra article have been linked around.

I helped show many people in this thread the vileness of OSC and they have decided not to give him their money.

RebelFM talked about this and some of their hosts decided to skip the game.

I helped get Peter David, the main writer for Shadow Complex, to admit that OSC is an asshole.

People who were only familiar with OSC the writer now know OSC the homophobe.

You say full of fail?

Thanks again for making this thread and cheers on getting some results with it

You forgot the other bonus of this thread-- it's been like a bug zapper for mouth-breathing homophobes. Bantastic!

 

[IrishNinja]

Over at Gamasutra, Peter David responds to a criticism of one of his more dubious arguments with... well, other dubious arguments:

"Also I hate to point this out Peter but that part where you advocated that pro-gay rights supporters should buy the game BECAUSE Card is associated with it was meant as a sly joke, right?"

You'll notice I didn't mention the game or Card when I said that. I was talking in general.

Years ago, when Neil Gaiman was in school, he had this one teacher who hated him. Just hated him. Got on him about everything. And Neil finally came up with a strategy: Rather than argue with him, he proceeded to kill him with kindness. He was unfailingly, relentlessly, over-the-top polite. It made the teacher nuts. It all came to a head one day when Neil said something like, "That's a lovely tie you have on today, sir." The teacher said, "Right, that's it!" He dragged Neil to the headmaster and started howling about Neil's behavior. The headmaster said, "Gaiman, what did you say to him?" Neil said, "I said, 'That's a lovely tie you have on today, sir.'" "SEE!" howled the teacher, "I TOLD YOU!" The headmaster stared at Neil, stared at the teacher, then looked back to Neil and said quietly, "That will be all, Gaiman." Next day the teacher was gone.

It's called thinking outside the box. Killing with kindness. Do I really expect people to abandon boycotts and try another approach? No. Why abandon a strategy so effective that it fails to have a significant impact the vast majority of the time?

By all means, everyone should advocate boycotts. Do the same old thing that people have been doing for years. The approach that hurts people with whom you have no quarrel and just reinforces the opinions of the people who are the real targets that their attackers are vengeful jerks.

In this case: Is it going to hurt me? Not in the least. I've got plenty of other irons in the fire. I'm fine, thanks. Will it hurt Card? Nope. He's likewise doing just fine. Who will you hurt? Well...possibly Don and Laura Mustard, a great couple of kids who poured her heart and soul and best efforts into a game that has drawn unilaterally rave reviews across the board. Who knows? Maybe you'll beat the odds. Maybe the boycott will actually be effective and terminally cripple their company so they can't put out more games that receive rave reviews, thus punishing not only Don and Laura, but every enthused gamer who enjoyed the hell out of "Shadow Complex" because they can't play the sequel.

All to prove...what? That you think Orson Scott Card is an asshole?

I think the words of Pogo might be appropriate: "We have met the enemy, and he is us."

PAD

ok, so he's off in a few directions there, but the last paragraph or so brings it home, pretty fair point i think: it reminds me of sanctions, where a form of indirect attack is taken, and often far greater damage is wrought on unintended targets, while those it aimed for go on about their business, most times.

again, respecting the OP & this thread's main argument, i know many will say that the folks PAD is naming are "guilty by association", and again im not trying to abstractly quantify things for people, but i do hope PAD's final point is at least given some thought. there's absolutely great reasons for some to go after OSC, and you're perfectly free to choose your venue, but there's gotta be better ones.

 

[UncleSmoothie]

I was just bringing up a few of the same points that the OP does in a different forum and was doing a little googling when I found this thread.

Good on you OP for starting an interesting discussion. Pity that not everyone can discuss it intelligently.

 

[Ponn]

What if you bought a combo meal for lunch today, and some of the money from that meal was used to pay the employee's wages and one of those employee's bought Shadow Complex with said money.

That's why I stay away from slippery slopes and letting politics and peoples outside agendas encroach on one of the few enjoyments I get out of life. The rest of the world can stay out of my entertainment center. Don't need drama in every aspect of my life. Bad people and things I don't support get money from me in one way or another every day. And yea its the "in thing" in this thread to be writing that off as a point but the fact remains its the truth. To each their own.

Also, I think boycotting a game that was made by people who spent a lot of time and energy into making this game awesome and may have had no idea about OSC, share his beliefs or even met the guy is really hitting the wrong, innocent people. Do we even know how much OSC is making in royalties of this game? Is something he is even going to sneeze at? I just think there are far better venues to protest a persons actions then getting mostly innocent workers caught in the middle. Just my two cents.

 

[Asmodai]

What if you bought a combo meal for lunch today, and some of the money from that meal was used to pay the employee's wages and one of those employee's bought Shadow Complex with said money.

That's why I stay away from slippery slopes and letting politics encroach on one of the few enjoyments I get out of life. The rest of the world can stay out of my entertainment center. Don't need drama in every aspect of my life. Bad people and things I don't support get money from me in way or another every day. And yea its the "in thing" in this thread to be writing that off as a point but the fact remains its the truth. To each their own.

Well said. Many people, including myself, have pointed out earlier in this thread that in a Western globalized society, you can't prevent your money from reaching people you might not want to have it, even if you wanted to.

That said, there was an interesting article on Kotaku about this issue, one much more well written than the Gamasutra one in my opinion.

http://kotaku.com/5343283/in-moral-debate-about-shadow-complex-both-sides-have-their-say

 

[eznark]

The comments on that Gamasutra article are really interesting.

I liked Klepek's interesting take:

I don't want to speak for him, but I doubt Christian is against people who don't intend or don't care to analyze Shadow Complex and its connections to OSC. If he or anyone else chooses to raise that issue and bring it under debate, however, such opinions shouldn't be suppressed with the casual reaction of "Dude, it's just a game." To outright dismiss such criticisms, whether you agree with them or not, whether you care about them or note, is woefully inappropriate and undermines the medium. How you chose -- or chose not -- to discuss, interact or respond to the game is entirely your call.

In summation: talk about this however you want, unless you talk about it in a way Patrick Klepek disagrees with. Strange.

I think "dude it's just a game" is a 100% valid reaction to the topic. That's all it is to me. Every issue doesn't register as intensely with every individual. If a game espoused KELO or seat-belt laws or feature Susan Sarandon I'd probably boycott it while others would say "dude, it's just a game. Sim City: Eminent Domain is rad!" It's a completely valid opinion.

David Ellis clued me into Craig T. Nelson apparently not being a Hollywood pinko, which makes Flesh Gordon 10x more interesting.

And my biggest fear, after skimming this thread and the comments over there, is that this issue has struck a cord with Chris Remo and will thus bog down Idle Thumbs. Hopefully Big Bird and the guy who doesn't play video games will prevent this from happening.

At the end of the day it won't make a single bit of difference. I doubt the money he'll make from this project will cover a years worth of black sweaters for Card. The discussion and the thread born of it all is pretty cool though.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

David Ellis clued me into Craig T. Nelson apparently not being a Hollywood pinko, which makes Flesh Gordon 10x more interesting.

This is the same Craig T. Nelson, I'll mention, that insists the government should stay out of our lives because no one helped him when he was living on food stamps.

...yeah.

 

[Jonnyboy117]

I find it striking that the word "boycott" seems to get people so angry over its use like its a dirty word.

It's not the word, it's the potential consequences. Whether some individual buys the game or not makes no difference. But if he successfully organizes a widespread boycott, there are real-world consequences.

1. Orson Scott Card stands to lose a tiny fraction of his income.

2. Chair and its employees stand to lose a massive portion of their income.

If you care more about playing future games from the studio that made Shadow Complex than you care about an sci-fi author's religious beliefs, then you have a vested interest in opposing the proposed boycott and discouraging your peers from participating.

I don't think boycotts are inherently bad. I come from Alabama and grew up idolizing Rosa Parks and being directly exposed to people who participated in the 1960s civil rights movement as well as the many more people who benefited from those protests. But just because some boycotts were justified and have been successful does not mean the boycott is a universal, fire-and-forget weapon against injustice. There is an enormous difference between boycotting a company that is directly advocating and enforcing social injustice versus boycotting a company that is tangentially related to an individual who espouses social injustice on his personal time.

 

[neoism]

What if you bought a combo meal for lunch today, and some of the money from that meal was used to pay the employee's wages and one of those employee's bought Shadow Complex with said money.

That's why I stay away from slippery slopes and letting politics and peoples outside agendas encroach on one of the few enjoyments I get out of life. The rest of the world can stay out of my entertainment center. Don't need drama in every aspect of my life. Bad people and things I don't support get money from me in one way or another every day. And yea its the "in thing" in this thread to be writing that off as a point but the fact remains its the truth. To each their own.

Best post in the thread!

 

[Margalis]

If not buying Shadow Complex is "punishing" Chair then aren't most people here guilty of "punishing" Grin?

The argument that the devs worked hard and therefore deserve sales is literally a communist argument. How hard the devs worked is irrelevant, it a capitalist society what matters is how much people are willing to spend on the finished product.

The devs at Chair are entitled to zero dollars of sales. And furthermore their salaries have already been paid, it's not like if the game sells poorly each employee has to pay the development costs out of their own pockets.

But if he successfully organizes a widespread boycott, there are real-world consequences.
...
2. Chair and its employees stand to lose a massive portion of their income.

The employees of Grin lost 100% of their income. And? Is it our duty to band together and send them money? Along with devs who were let got from Big Huge Games, Pandemic, Factor 5...

In the unlikely scenario that people posting on message board makes Chair go out of business...so? When companies make products that people don't want to buy they go out of business, yeah. That's how it works.

 

[Chittagong]

oh shit just bought the game and now saw this thread should I delete it?

 

[Ogrekiller]

oh shit just bought the game and now saw this thread should I delete it?

Too late your monies are on their way to OSC now

 

[HUELEN10]

oh shit just bought the game and now saw this thread should I delete it?

You already paid, what difference would it really make in that regard?

 

[Ponn]

If not buying Shadow Complex is "punishing" Chair then aren't most people here guilty of "punishing" Grin?

The argument that the devs worked hard and therefore deserve sales is literally a communist argument. How hard the devs worked is irrelevant, it a capitalist society what matters is how much people are willing to spend on the finished product.

The devs at Chair are entitled to zero dollars of sales. And furthermore their salaries have already been paid, it's not like if the game sells poorly each employee has to pay the development costs out of their own pockets.



The employees of Grin lost 100% of their income. And? Is it our duty to band together and send them money? Along with devs who were let got from Big Huge Games, Pandemic, Factor 5...

In the unlikely scenario that people posting on message board makes Chair go out of business...so? When companies make products that people don't want to buy they go out of business, yeah. That's how it works.

Those...you just have to know what you wrote is wrong and not nearly the same. You are saying a company going out of business because they suck on their own merits is the same as a business going out of business because of a boycott because of some guy who is tangently involved and having nothing to do with the game actually being good or not?

One of these things is not like the other.

And on another note, just so people are on full disclosure and can be completionist on their OSC boycotting this may have been overlooked, or maybe no, I don't know but just to refresh.

http://marvel.com/news/comicstories.3185.NYCC_~apos~08~colon~_Ender~apos~s_Game_Coming_to_Marvel

These have been coming out for awhile but yea, if you don't want OSC getting your money and you want companies to know you don't support them supporting OSC you better start boycotting everything Marvel as well.

 

[Jonnyboy117]

If not buying Shadow Complex is "punishing" Chair then aren't most people here guilty of "punishing" Grin?

The argument that the devs worked hard and therefore deserve sales is literally a communist argument. How hard the devs worked is irrelevant, it a capitalist society what matters is how much people are willing to spend on the finished product.

I would never recommend that someone to buy a game for any reason other than to enjoy it. You are completely misinterpreting what I posted.

GRIN was punished in the marketplace, under pure market forces, not by organized protest. I don't lament that company's passing; they should have made better games and better publishing deals. I have not said that Chair should be protected, or that they are sanctified. I simply said that a successful boycott would cause disproportionate financial harm to the studio as compared to the author. That's a plain fact, no communist element actual or implied.

 

[Bojanglez]

I think he is more homosceptic than homophobic

 

[TheSeks]

I helped get Peter David, the main writer for Shadow Complex, to admit that OSC is an asshole.

Woah, where? This thread exploded like a gas tank in a fire, so I haven't been following it much. :lol

 

[Spoo]

Personally, the "boycott" talk is a bad word; given the times. I mean, we're seeing studios drop left and right -- that's a given. Economy still sucks. And companies like GRIN bought the farm for simpler reasons: 1) Their games were 3 hours long. 2) Their games were not very good. 3) Their games cost 60 bucks on arrival.

So now you have Chair, a small Utah-based company (oh those damn Utahns and their Mormonism!), and they've actually made a great game. A great, cheap, game. And we're talking about "teaching them a lesson," which is, of course, not to hang around bigots like OSC. Apparantly, we don't care that we're potentially hurting many to annoy one. We're just making our point, and we don't care who we hurt in the process of that.

Yes, you are free to spend your money as you see fit. But, if you come here and say "I'm not going to buy this because I'm pro-gay" (Which I am as well, though I bought the game day 1), what you're really doing is making pro-gays look just as bad as the Mormons did when they decided to use their money to make their point.

I personally believe in the gay rights movement, and I won't be swayed into hurting people to achieve it. I will contribute where and when I can, speak out in what I believe, and peacefully fight for that. I will not, though, boycott a perfectly fine product -- made by some perfectly fine people who are trying to get by -- to brutally make a point that will fall on OSC's deaf ears. I believe the movement is better than that, and deserves an approach that doesn't frankly emulate the one I hated when Prop 8 rolled around.

 

[Asmodai]

Woah, where? This thread exploded like a gas tank in a fire, so I haven't been following it much. :lol

Count yourself lucky in that regard :lol

Personally, the "boycott" talk is a bad word; given the times. I mean, we're seeing studios drop left and right -- that's a given. Economy still sucks. And companies like GRIN bought the farm for simpler reasons: 1) Their games were 3 hours long. 2) Their games were not very good. 3) Their games cost 60 bucks on arrival.

So now you have Chair, a small Utah-based company (oh those damn Utahns and their Mormonism!), and they've actually made a great game. A great, cheap, game. And we're talking about "teaching them a lesson," which is, of course, not to hang around bigots like OSC. Apparantly, we don't care that we're potentially hurting many to annoy one. We're just making our point, and we don't care who we hurt in the process of that.

Yes, you are free to spend your money as you see fit. But, if you come here and say "I'm not going to buy this because I'm pro-gay" (Which I am as well, though I bought the game day 1), what you're really doing is making pro-gays look just as bad as the Mormons did when they decided to use their money to make their point.

I personally believe in the gay rights movement, and I won't be swayed into hurting people to achieve it. I will contribute where and when I can, speak out in what I believe, and peacefully fight for that. I will not, though, boycott a perfectly fine product -- made by some perfectly fine people who are trying to get by -- to brutally make a point that will fall on OSC's deaf ears. I believe the movement is better than that, and deserves an approach that doesn't frankly emulate the one I hated when Prop 8 rolled around.

Similar to my own perspective on it.

Of course, in Canada, this particular political issue is dead. Gay marriages have been legal for several years and it will remain so indefinitely, assuming that there is no drastic political change among the populace.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Great post there, Spoo, and one I think fits my personal view on the situation most. There are simply better ways to hit OSC and his activism if you feel so inclined. Choosing one of the least effective (IMO), most splash damage-heavy methods seems terribly misguided. That is, if you actually care about the game that Chair has produced and might continue to offer in the future.

 

[bill0527]

Personally, the "boycott" talk is a bad word; given the times. I mean, we're seeing studios drop left and right -- that's a given. Economy still sucks. And companies like GRIN bought the farm for simpler reasons: 1) Their games were 3 hours long. 2) Their games were not very good. 3) Their games cost 60 bucks on arrival.

So now you have Chair, a small Utah-based company (oh those damn Utahns and their Mormonism!), and they've actually made a great game. A great, cheap, game. And we're talking about "teaching them a lesson," which is, of course, not to hang around bigots like OSC. Apparantly, we don't care that we're potentially hurting many to annoy one. We're just making our point, and we don't care who we hurt in the process of that.

Yes, you are free to spend your money as you see fit. But, if you come here and say "I'm not going to buy this because I'm pro-gay" (Which I am as well, though I bought the game day 1), what you're really doing is making pro-gays look just as bad as the Mormons did when they decided to use their money to make their point.

I personally believe in the gay rights movement, and I won't be swayed into hurting people to achieve it. I will contribute where and when I can, speak out in what I believe, and peacefully fight for that. I will not, though, boycott a perfectly fine product -- made by some perfectly fine people who are trying to get by -- to brutally make a point that will fall on OSC's deaf ears. I believe the movement is better than that, and deserves an approach that doesn't frankly emulate the one I hated when Prop 8 rolled around.

Very similar viewpoint to the one I posted back on the early pages of this thread and I agree with you.

I used the Whole Foods boycott as an analogy to yours. People who disagree with Whole Foods CEO stance on the healthcare debate are planning to boycott Whole Foods. The thing is, you're not going to hurt the CEO by boycotting his store. He's already made his millions and I'm sure he's got enough of it tucked away in other things so that if his chain goes belly-up, its not going to hurt him at all. He's still going to be set for life. The people they are really going to be hurting are the very people they claim to care about with their cause - the working stiffs on the front lines who make marginally decent wages and they've got a good health care plan. So make sure you shop somewhere else so that those people lose their jobs - and their healthcare on top of that.

 

[firehawk12]

Well, I'm not sure if I want to buy the game... but to be honest, I associated Peter David with it - I only found out about Card's involvement recently. If anything, this has gone and "exposed" Card's political views to me. I don't know if it changes anything though. I mean, I enjoyed Ender's Game 10 years ago and I can't really go back and stop liking it.

I suppose I have to just go with David's stance on the situation.

 

[Downhome]

I wouldn't ever boycott a game just because someone worked on it that had beliefs opposite of mime, just like I wouldn't let that affect a TV show or movie I watch, music I listen to, products I buy, and so on. The only exception to that is if someone created and released something for the sole reason to spread their belief which I didn't agree with, and thought would be harmful to society.

From the look of the Shadow Complex thread, it looks like a ton of people went ahead and bought it, as a great game, and have enjoyed it a ton...as a great game.

 

[Alex]

I think a boycott is an overly strong response, but as someone who is not gay, nor even knows any gay people personally, it's be very unfair for me to label it as such.

But it's such a loose, unrelated involvement and an overly distant issue for me that it's just not something I can really say I mind. I do respect those who feel strongly enough to take their beliefs to such far corners though, I'm probably too weak minded of an individual to ever go that far. :lol

This is the best game in this subgenre since Super Metroid to me, it's a shame that a nutjob's involvement had to cause all this strife. I wonder, if they make a sequel (please, please), how all of this might impact it.

 

[KHarvey16]

Personally, the "boycott" talk is a bad word; given the times. I mean, we're seeing studios drop left and right -- that's a given. Economy still sucks. And companies like GRIN bought the farm for simpler reasons: 1) Their games were 3 hours long. 2) Their games were not very good. 3) Their games cost 60 bucks on arrival.

None of these are objectively more valid then considering where your money will go when purchasing a game.

So now you have Chair, a small Utah-based company (oh those damn Utahns and their Mormonism!), and they've actually made a great game. A great, cheap, game. And we're talking about "teaching them a lesson," which is, of course, not to hang around bigots like OSC. Apparantly, we don't care that we're potentially hurting many to annoy one. We're just making our point, and we don't care who we hurt in the process of that.

Strawman, you've made that up. How many times does it need to be repeated before people will listen? The point to not buying the game is NOT to teach anyone a lesson or make a statement, it's to prevent a particular persons money from ending up in the hands of OSC, where it will be used to further his despicable agenda. Please read this point and understand it.

Yes, you are free to spend your money as you see fit. But, if you come here and say "I'm not going to buy this because I'm pro-gay" (Which I am as well, though I bought the game day 1), what you're really doing is making pro-gays look just as bad as the Mormons did when they decided to use their money to make their point.

See above, you've ignored pages of discussion.

I personally believe in the gay rights movement, and I won't be swayed into hurting people to achieve it. I will contribute where and when I can, speak out in what I believe, and peacefully fight for that. I will not, though, boycott a perfectly fine product -- made by some perfectly fine people who are trying to get by -- to brutally make a point that will fall on OSC's deaf ears. I believe the movement is better than that, and deserves an approach that doesn't frankly emulate the one I hated when Prop 8 rolled around.

You are arguing against a point few have made.

 

[FourSerioux]

Really... are people even playing this game because of the story? I think not.

 

[BigKaboom2]

The point to not buying the game is NOT to teach anyone a lesson or make a statement, it's to prevent a particular persons money from ending up in the hands of OSC, where it will be used to further his despicable agenda.

Taking this at face value even though I disagree with the premise, how do you know that he'll use the money to further his agenda? Are you really even sure that the amount of money he receives for the game is scaled up or down based on how well it sells?

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Really... are people even playing this game because of the story? I think not.

You haven't read any of the thread at all.

THIS MAN IS DISPARAGING THE BOOT, WHICH IS A BOOTABLE OFFENCE

 

[KHarvey16]

Taking this at face value even though I disagree with the premise, how do you know that he'll use the money to further his agenda? Are you really even sure that the amount of money he receives for the game is scaled up or down based on how well it sells?

How much you wanna bet he didn't work for free? And whether or not he takes his Chair check and directly deposits it into his anti-gay account doesn't really matter. Perhaps he uses it to fund some event or maybe he just buys a shirt, which then frees up some other $20 to be used for some activity focused on stripping peoples rights.

Any what do you mean by "disagree with the premise?" The premise that people don't want their money used to take away rights or the premise that not buying the game will prevent their money from being used by him to try and accomplish said goals?

 

[FrostuTheNinja]

I don't know about the rest of you, but out of this entire thread, this is what bugged me the most...

Anyway, the article also said if you want to buy the game, buy it! Just donate a small amount to a gay friendly cause.

I have a real quick question.

Why?

Edit:

Hey, I read the damn thread. I knew this thread was about Card being a nut. I thought mentioning it would be obvious. Evidently not.

I just wanted to know why someone should have to donate money to a cause to, "off set the hate"?

 

[TheSeks]

I don't know about the rest of you, but out of this entire thread, this is what bugged me the most...



I have a real quick question.

Why?

Did you bother reading the thread? Orson Scott Card is part of an organization that promotes removing gay peoples rights. As such, if you buy the game you're supporting him spreading his hate (as he was involved even if a tiny bit). Thus, 20+ pages of shitstorming over this.

Why? Because you counter-balance OSC's hateful views.

 

[Quagm1r3]

Wait, Ender wasn't gay?

lol

 

[elrechazado]

thread still going strong I see, and with the same series of posts every page. I think we need to train a brilliant young boy to be the general responder on behalf of both sides of the thread, but make him think he's really responding to computer simulations of a thread. Then when he finally defeats the thread itself, we'll tell him it was all real and shed tears of joy together.

Yeah, that's what we should do. Anyone have a 6 year old boy we can use?

 

[Spoo]

None of these are objectively more valid then considering where your money will go when purchasing a game.

Yeah, but you're not really considering that at all. Not in a way that is valiant, to say the least. Okay, so a super, infintessimal amount will go to OSC (consider, he's in the "special thanks" portion of the credits, and nothing else). But what about everyone else? Are you considering them? Not at all. You're out to teach one person a lesson. Card. Nobody else. Yet it's everyone else who will suffer the most. As for "objectively more valid", what do you need exactly? People have told you what I'm telling you now; don't damn a game because some dude disagrees with you; damn it because it sucks. Shadow Complex certainly doesn't suck.

Strawman, you've made that up. How many times does it need to be repeated before people will listen? The point to not buying the game is NOT to teach anyone a lesson or make a statement, it's to prevent a particular persons money from ending up in the hands of OSC, where it will be used to further his despicable agenda. Please read this point and understand it.

Made it up? Surely, you're just not following. You're teaching Card a lesson, in the sense that not a cent of your money should wind up in his hands because you don't agree with his political stances. Fine, you don't. I get that. But you keep suggesting that somehow, by buying Shadow Complex, you're agreeing with him. You aren't. I fully support the gay movement, and I bought this game day-1. Are you saying I agree with it, because I funded someone -- indirectly -- who I know to be a supporter of anti-gay movements? If so, Jesus, I don't know where to start, buddy. Fuck his Agenda -- I don't support it. I do, however, support Shadow Complex; his game or not. Primary, the Mustards' game, which you seem to ignore. So many people involved with this, yet you "boycott" it on account of one? Am I truly made out of straw, I wonder?

You are arguing against a point few have made.

Am I? I'm telling you that what the Mormons did was spend money to quell influence. You propose the opposite: Don't spend money to quell influence. Yet, then, you suggust influence is coming in the form of "Shadow Complex" -- a game which is so simple and basic, it'd be unfair to suggest it does anything of value in the realm of politics. Oh, but then there's Card. Yes, he disagrees with you. He disagrees with the entire gay movement. I fully support his ability to say it; I don't support his opinion. Would you ignore a game that you'd actually play simply because you want to keep other people from Card's views? Fuck it, man. Let people here what Card has to say. He has a right to say it. Are you so afraid of what Card has to say -- so absolutely insecure in the gay-rights movement -- that you'd hurt a developer -- some 30 individuals -- just to annoy him? Ridiculous.

Nobody -- and I mean nobody is saying that you shouldn't be able to put your money where you want -- the only thing anyone is saying is that keeping your money from a good product because you're so afraid of Card's influence is pathetic. 100%, fucking, absolutely, pathetic. Hate the game for... I don't know, how easy it is. But hate a game because someone who worked on it hates gays? Right. Wave your e-dick around like you're saving someone or something because you're not spending your cash on a game that deserves it. Just don't wave that e-dick in front of me; it's smaller than you think it is.

 

[Cheech]

thread still going strong I see, and with the same series of posts every page. I think we need to train a brilliant young boy to be the general responder on behalf of both sides of the thread, but make him think he's really responding to computer simulations of a thread. Then when he finally defeats the thread itself, we'll tell him it was all real and shed tears of joy together.

Yeah, that's what we should do. Anyone have a 6 year old boy we can use?

I came pretty close to posting the lyrics to Big Audio Dynamite's "Rush" in this thread. Not sure why, figured everybody could use some kum-ba-ya.

 

[BigKaboom2]

How much you wanna bet he didn't work for free?

As I understand it, he didn't do any work at all specifically for the game.

Any what do you mean by "disagree with the premise?" The premise that people don't want their money used to take away rights or the premise that not buying the game will prevent their money from being used by him to try and accomplish said goals?

I disagree with the premise that someone shouldn't be rewarded for their contributions because someone else jumps to the conclusion that they'll spend the money they receive on something completely unrelated that they disapprove of.

I couldn't be any more displeased with the election of Obama, but I guarantee I've purchased things produced by people who donated to his campaign. Doesn't bother me at all, as I can respect their political opinions despite some of them also involving "taking away rights," and it's really none of my business what they spend their money on. All that matters to me is if the value I ascribe to the product is equal to or greater than its price.

If OSC had never mentioned his views on homosexuality, you would never have given it a second thought. But once his opinion is known, he's suddenly crossed the line. Ideally in a free society, there should be no reason for him to keep his opinions under wraps for fear of drawing the ire of the politically correct defense force.

 

[KHarvey16]

Yeah, but you're not really considering that at all. Not in a way that is valiant, to say the least. Okay, so a super, infintessimal amount will go to OSC (consider, he's in the "special thanks" portion of the credits, and nothing else). But what about everyone else? Are you considering them? Not at all. You're out to teach one person a lesson. Card. Nobody else. Yet it's everyone else who will suffer the most. As for "objectively more valid", what do you need exactly? People have told you what I'm telling you now; don't damn a game because some dude disagrees with you; damn it because it sucks. Shadow Complex certainly doesn't suck.



Made it up? Surely, you're just not following. You're teaching Card a lesson, in the sense that not a cent of your money should wind up in his hands because you don't agree with his political stances. Fine, you don't. I get that. But you keep suggesting that somehow, by buying Shadow Complex, you're agreeing with him. You aren't. I fully support the gay movement, and I bought this game day-1. Are you saying I agree with it, because I funded someone -- indirectly -- who I know to be a supporter of anti-gay movements? If so, Jesus, I don't know where to start, buddy. Fuck his Agenda -- I don't support it. I do, however, support Shadow Complex; his game or not. Primary, the Mustards' game, which you seem to ignore. So many people involved with this, yet you "boycott" it on account of one? Am I truly made out of straw, I wonder?




Am I? I'm telling you that what the Mormons did was spend money to quell influence. You propose the opposite: Don't spend money to quell influence. Yet, then, you suggust influence is coming in the form of "Shadow Complex" -- a game which is so simple and basic, it'd be unfair to suggest it does anything of value in the realm of politics. Oh, but then there's Card. Yes, he disagrees with you. He disagrees with the entire gay movement. I fully support his ability to say it; I don't support his opinion. Would you ignore a game that you'd actually play simply because you want to keep other people from Card's views? Fuck it, man. Let people here what Card has to say. He has a right to say it. Are you so afraid of what Card has to say -- so absolutely insecure in the gay-rights movement -- that you'd hurt a developer -- some 30 individuals -- just to annoy him? Ridiculous.

Nobody -- and I mean nobody is saying that you shouldn't be able to put your money where you want -- the only thing anyone is saying is that keeping your money from a good product because you're so afraid of Card's influence is pathetic. 100%, fucking, absolutely, pathetic. Hate the game for... I don't know, how easy it is. But hate a game because someone who worked on it hates gays? Right. Wave your e-dick around like you're saving someone or something because you're not spending your cash on a game that deserves it. Just don't wave that e-dick in front of me; it's smaller than you think it is.

YOU. ARE. NOT. LISTENING.

Read this carefully, please:

OSC sits on political committees tasked with influencing politicians into enacting laws to strip citizens of their rights. He uses his money to help accomplish this.

I AM NOT TRYING TO PUNISH HIM. If you refused to give Hitler $10 for his campaign, would you say you did it to teach him a lesson? And please, for the love of god, don't get hung up on that analogy. OSC is not Hitler, I know. The analogy is not meant to compare evilness or death toll.

I'll repeat myself: I am not choosing to refuse purchasing this game to teach anyone a lesson. I don't fucking care whether or not OSC changes his ways. All I care about is him not using my money to accomplish his goals.

The very least you can do is attempt to fully understand the argument here. Please.

 

[Asmodai]

Kharvey, I'm not disagreeing with you here, but I understand where Spoo is coming from. Honestly, in your last post (the one just above this one), you didn't outline an argument.

What it was is some kind of irrelevant analogy about Hitler, which you then admitted is irrelevant...kind of weird that you brought it up, isn't it?

I'm sorry, but I think you need to clarify what your argument is exactly, it isn't very clear. I understand the basic concept of "OSC is an idiot and I don't want to give him money", I mean beyond that.

 

[KHarvey16]

As I understand it, he didn't do any work at all specifically for the game.

He has spoke numerous times about contributing to the game and seems to do PR for it. He is getting paid.

I disagree with the premise that someone shouldn't be rewarded for their contributions because someone else jumps to the conclusion that they'll spend the money they receive on something completely unrelated that they disapprove of.

What? Whether I directly fund his political activities or simply enable him to pay for other things while he goes about them it doesn't matter. And let's be clear, he doesn't deserve a god damn thing. Developers don't deserve to be rewarded just for making a game. That's ridiculous.

I couldn't be any more displeased with the election of Obama, but I guarantee I've purchased things produced by people who donated to his campaign. Doesn't bother me at all, as I can respect their political opinions despite some of them also involving "taking away rights," and it's really none of my business what they spend their money on. All that matters to me is if the value I ascribe to the product is equal to or greater than its price.

If someone said they were interested in campaigning for Obama for the 2012 election and wanted to sell you an ice cream, I would not criticize you for refusing to support him financially. It's your choice. Is the ice cream worth it? Is the game? That's the question. Everyone will answer differently and that's perfectly fine. Just don't dismiss the question.

If OSC had never mentioned his views on homosexuality, you would never have given it a second thought.

If I didn't know his views and position of influence, you're absolutely right. Life sucks, eh? But as it stands I and others do happen to know, so we deal with that reality.

But once his opinion is known, he's suddenly crossed the line. Ideally in a free society, there should be no reason for him to keep his opinions under wraps for fear of drawing the ire of the politically correct defense force.

This is absolutely ridiculous. Freedom of speech, which I have defender here at lengths many would not, never protects one from valid, legal repercussion. If a CEO proclaims his support of the Neo-Nazis, you can bet your ass many will stop buying his products and that has absolutely nothing to say about the freedom of speech or the free exchange of ideas.

 

[KHarvey16]

Kharvey, I'm not disagreeing with you here, but I understand where Spoo is coming from. Honestly, in your last post (the one just above this one), you didn't outline an argument.

I said why I didn't want him to have my money and Spoo ignored this completely.

What it was is some kind of irrelevant analogy about Hitler, which you then admitted is irrelevant...kind of weird that you brought it up, isn't it?

It's not irrelevant and I didn't say it was. It's perfectly easy to understand. Did you not?

I'm sorry, but I think you need to clarify what your argument is exactly, it isn't very clear. I understand the basic concept of "OSC is an idiot and I don't want to give him money", I mean beyond that.

He is an idiot with the means to influence policy. Have I not been typing this over and over again?

 

[Asmodai]

It's not irrelevant and I didn't say it was. It's perfectly easy to understand. Did you not?

You provided an analogy and then said "don't get hung up on this analogy", which to me implies "please don't point out how irrelevant this analogy is." The only thing buying a videogame and a campaign donation have in common is that money is transferred between parties. If you're to take that as being a bad thing, anytime you spend 10 dollars at a local convenience store where an employee has opinions like OSC, you're doing what you're so afraid of doing with Shadow Complex and not even knowing it. Your analogy is irrelevant whether you think it is or not.

He is an idiot with the means to influence policy. Have I not been typing this over and over again?

That's it?

It's been typed over and over again that buying this game is not going to change how much money he has to influence said policy in any meaningful way.

 

[Spoo]

YOU. ARE. NOT. LISTENING.

Read this carefully, please:

OSC sits on political committees tasked with influencing politicians into enacting laws to strip citizens of their rights. He uses his money to help accomplish this.

I AM NOT TRYING TO PUNISH HIM. If you refused to give Hitler $10 for his campaign, would you say you did it to teach him a lesson? And please, for the love of god, don't get hung up on that analogy. OSC is not Hitler, I know. The analogy is not meant to compare evilness or death toll.

I'll repeat myself: I am not choosing to refuse purchasing this game to teach anyone a lesson. I don't fucking care whether or not OSC changes his ways. All I care about is him not using my money to accomplish his goals.

The very least you can do is attempt to fully understand the argument here. Please.

Okay :\ Look, I've read what you said. I'm not just quickly looking at it, and hitting that "reply" buttone. I'm not like that. I like to think about what I'm about to say.

OSC sits on a "political committess" tasked with influencing politicians into enacting laws to strip citizens of their rights. He uses his money to help acomplish this.

You sit on a political committe in which you've tasked yourself into enacting laws to add rights that not everyone agrees with. You -- by not spending money -- help to accomplish this.

You and OSC are not so different. You have something to say, but you do it in different ways. OSC spends money, and calls himself a hero. Rightfully; he blows money for his cause. You don't spend money to further your cause, and call yourself a hero. You barely even tickel OSC with your intentions.

But you're still hurting a great many people who had every intention of just making a fine videogame. No, they aren't entitled to your money. But you probably would've purchased the game had OSC not been involved in any small way. So is it worth it? Does it feel good to keep your money from Chair in the interest of keeping OSC from spreading his religion of hate? Have you even thought about what kind of impression your making on all of those people who worked on the game? Maybe they'll start hating gays because of you? Do you want that?

Just be honest about it, instead of suggesting I don't understand your posts.

 

[KHarvey16]

You provided an analogy and then said "don't get hung up on this analogy", which to me implies "please don't point out how irrelevant this analogy is." Buying a game is nothing like a campaign donation. Your analogy is irrelevant whether you think it is or not.

I said don't get hung up on it. People tend to just hear Hitler used in an analogy and go "OMG WTF HE ISN'T LIKE HITLER!!!11!"

The analogy works and it isn't irrelevant. Try and answer this question: if Hitler asked you for $10 in 1934, why wouldn't you give it to him?

That's it?

It's been typed over and over again that buying this game is not going to change how much money he has to influence said policy in any meaningful way.

And my vote in the presidential election didn't change the results. Does that mean I should just close my eyes and stab blindly at the card? No, it's my vote and I care who gets it. It's my money and I also care who gets it. It just so happens I know in this case what a person who will see benefit from my patronage believes and likes to do with his money.

 

[IrishNinja]

does godwin's law apply to GAF?

 

[BigKaboom2]

He has spoke numerous times about contributing to the game and seems to do PR for it. He is getting paid.

Likely true, but you're ignoring my original point about not knowing whether the amount of money he receives is correlated to the sales of the game or was always going to be the same regardless.

What? Whether I directly fund his political activities or simply enable him to pay for other things while he goes about them it doesn't matter. And let's be clear, he doesn't deserve a god damn thing. Developers don't deserve to be rewarded just for making a game. That's ridiculous.

They don't deserve to be rewarded for making any old game - they deserve to be rewarded for making a game that you personally find to be worth the price, that you find sufficiently interesting, and that you can comfortably afford. They've done all the requisite work to make something that appeals to you (this is the generic 'you,' not you in particular) but you've thrown all that out the window because your 1 or 2 cents MIGHT go to someone in the Special Thanks section that you disagree with.

If someone said they were interested in campaigning for Obama for the 2012 election and wanted to sell you an ice cream, I would not criticize you for refusing to support him financially. It's your choice. Is the ice cream worth it? Is the game? That's the question. Everyone will answer differently and that's perfectly fine. Just don't dismiss the question.

If a CEO proclaims his support of the Neo-Nazis, you can bet your ass many will stop buying his products and that has absolutely nothing to say about the freedom of speech or the free exchange of ideas.

Of course it's my choice. I choose to monetarily support people's right to express themselves if they're providing services or goods that I find valuable. I don't fantasize about people falling into financial ruin just because they disagree with me.

 

[KHarvey16]

You sit on a political committe in which you've tasked yourself into enacting laws to add rights now everyone agrees with. You -- by not spending money -- help to accomplish this.

Huh?

You and OSC are not so different. You have something to say, but you do it in different ways. OSC spends money, and calls himself a hero. Rightfully; he blows money for his cause. You don't spend money to further your cause, and call yourself a hero. You barely even tickel OSC with your intentions.

Call myself a hero? When? Don't conjure up my words for me please.

But you're still hurting a great many people who had every intention of just making a fine videogame. No, they aren't entitled to your money. But you probably would've purchased the game had OSC not been involved in any small way. So is it worth it? Does it feel good to keep your money from Chair in the interest of keeping OSC from spreading his religion of hate? Have you even thought about what kind of impression your making on all of those people who worked on the game? Maybe they'll start hating gays because of you? Do you want that?

If they start hating gays because I didn't want OSC to have my money, they are clearly unstable, stupid people anyway who would no doubt turn to some kind of silly behavior at some point in their life.

Do you weep for the families of the developers of games you don't buy because they made some decision you don't like?

Just be honest about it, instead of suggesting I don't understand your posts.

I am being honest about it. Whether a developer loses business through making bad gameplay decisions or bad PR decisions I don't see any difference.

 

[FateBreaker]

I'll repeat myself: I am not choosing to refuse purchasing this game to teach anyone a lesson. I don't fucking care whether or not OSC changes his ways. All I care about is him not using my money to accomplish his goals.

Shadow Complex costs $15. It will probably not sell a million, so let's just say it sells half of that. 15 x 500,000 = 7,500,000. Now, we have a company of person-other-than-Card people who, you know, worked very hard on this game (and it shows), and probably get the majority of the money (hopefully) while MS probably gets some part. Card makes his money from his books. That's what he's known for. Ender's Game still sells ridiculously well. Listen, you're not going to get your wish. As much as you complain online, it won't make a difference. I've already stated my stance on this, and the game deserves to sell. But you said you just don't want HIS received money to accomplish his goals. The biggest portion of his money comes from other things. I'd be willing to bet he doesn't net much profit from this.

So instead of bitching about The Little Game That Could from a bunch of talented folks who just got their 15 minutes of fame and are being shat on in a thread like this which doesn't even concern them, go do something more substantial and or make a case about Empire's terrible allegories, and get on TV, and then do what he's doing: use your words and money to deflect his (admittedly dumb) goals. But associating this game with him. Have you played it? The story is almost non-existent, and I guarantee everyone who plays it is not play for Card's dumn Empire universe. And don't tell me I haven't read this ridiculous, I-can't-believe-it's-still-up thread.

And that's my two cents. Weeee.

 

[L0st Id3ntity]

Why is this thread 43 pages?