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Should we bring the cane back in schools?

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gohepcat said:
Why do you not deny the allegations that you raped and murdered a woman in 1990?

You can't start a conversation with something that isn't true. How is someone supposed to answer this?
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The increase of the behaviour of some children is no secret

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/article3564297.ece
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-433024/One-teacher-attacked-day-Britain.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2007/feb/01/schools.uk

The audio link in the OP was of a recent debate on national television regarding the problem.

  • Teachers suffered 221 injuries from attacks in 2005-06, up 21 per cent on the previous year
  • 1,128 teachers were assaulted between 2000 and 2006
  • A survey found that most attacks were on nursery nurses, special school teachers and learning assistants
  • Another survey suggests that British schoolgirls are among the most violent in the world, with 29 per cent of English and Scottish girls aged 11 to 15 having been in at least one fight in the past year
Click to expand...
 
Jasup said:
Well I'll be, I take back everything I ever said against using physical punishment. It clearly is a godsent!
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Besides the snide remark, do you have anything else to say?

Because I have more to tell you - that Math teacher never had to expel anyone from class.
 
Bitmap Frogs said:
Besides the snide remark, do you have anything else to say?

Because I have more to tell you - that Math teacher never had to expel anyone from class.
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I bet you everyone fucking hated math though.
 
Lets face facts. Kids don't respect adults for the most part in todays world. We let them call us by our first name. When I was younger I always said yes sir no sir. School class rooms haven't changed much in size I don't think(could be wrong). Its more with the fact that parents aren't taking an interest in their kids as much because usualy it takes mom and dad working to pay for the life they live. My mom was at home everyday when I got home and my father spanked me if I acted up. I knew right from wrong. I also knew there were going to be consequences for my actions. Kids don't think this way anymore / well the kids acting out like they are. Plus it seems to be more vocal in todays world with the initernet and youtube videos of kids acting people on camera.
 
AVclub said:
That isn't government's concern. It's the parent's responsibility to deal with their children.
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It sure as fuck has worked in Toronto.

Kids with learning disabilities, or mental issues go to communication classes. If that does not work they go to various schools designed to help people with those problems.

We have teachers who actually care working at our public schools here, and you graduate with a great education.

Fights still happen, of course, but nothing like in America. I think we have had one shooting/stabbing(Jordan Manner) in a quarter century. The least of any metro city in the world.

Teachers are rarely, if ever assaulted by students in any way.
 
quickwhips said:
Lets face facts. Kids don't respect adults for the most part in todays world. We let them call us by our first name. When I was younger I always said yes sir no sir. School class rooms haven't changed much in size I don't think(could be wrong). Its more with the fact that parents aren't taking an interest in their kids as much because usualy it takes mom and dad working to pay for the life they live. My mom was at home everyday when I got home and my father spanked me if I acted up. I knew right from wrong. I also knew there were going to be consequences for my actions. Kids don't think this way anymore / well the kids acting out like they are. Plus it seems to be more vocal in todays world with the initernet and youtube videos of kids acting people on camera.
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It's like the same person has made the same argument over and over in this thread.

Also, I find the bold humourous.
 
gohepcat said:
Every one from biola.edu
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You do realise of course some of those links paste entire passages of those sources, but actually cite the sources as books/papers and publication dates? For example in my post for the first one, it clearly says she is from the University of Berkley. The third is authored by W. Bradford Wilcox of the Center for Research on Child Wellbeing at Princeton University and John P. Bartkowski of the Sociology Department at Mississippi State University and the other two are from books from individual sources. Only the second seems to be written by someone from Biola - but seems to supports its points with outside references.
 
Bitmap Frogs said:
Because I have more to tell you - that Math teacher never had to expel anyone from class.
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Nor had I, yet I do not use methods of physical punishment in my teaching. I don't even have usually use disciplinary actions to make pupils work in classes. And no, it's not like a zoo inside the classroom.

My point was, you can back almost anything up with anecdotal evidence. But if you think it worked once, it doesn't mean it works.
 
Kinitari said:
First of all, this is just a generic observation made by you, I don't know if you want to use this in a serious argument. I could argue that kids in the past were on 'friendlier' terms (edit: with their parents) in general than kids now adays, what then?

Are you implying that hundreds of years ago, kids were more well behaved? Or just 50 years ago?

Since the 60's there have been what sort of constant downward spiral? Youth homicide? Youth non-violent crime? Youth assaulting teachers? What sort of downward spiral are you talking about? Do you think that at this point in time youth are 'worse' than they were 50 years ago? If so in what fashion?

Disciplining your children does not have to mean you hit them, ever, or that teachers hit them ever.
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Simple lack of respect for adults. In the 50's and 60's you would NEVER see a kid talk back to another adult because he knew if he did, he would get his ass whipped by his Dad if he found out. It's pretty commonplace today to see kids outwardly talking back to adults or other figures of authority and many times the kids of those parents back the kid. You would NEVER have seen that 50 years ago.

Case in point - I tend to be a little more hardline (more willing to give spankings, etc.) than my wife with our kids. So the other day one of the neighbor kids who is probably 12 or 13 is at the end of our street where our house is shooting his paintball gun off through these trees which have a house on the other side. I say "Hey, don't shoot that over here" and the kid walks away. My wife actually thought that I should apologize to this kid for not wanting him shooting his paintball gun off around our house. I told her "If his parents didn't midn him doing it, he would be doing it in their backyard into the field behind their house and not over by our house."
 
Woodsy said:
Simple lack of respect for adults. In the 50's and 60's you would NEVER see a kid talk back to another adult because he knew if he did, he would get his ass whipped by his Dad if he found out.
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So how do you explain hippies?
 
sorry i can't take the OP's neolithic logic seriously

not until you say something more than some anecdotes

And if you want those, I have first hand experience with classrooms full of problem kids.
 
quickwhips said:
Lets face facts. Kids don't respect adults for the most part in todays world. We let them call us by our first name. When I was younger I always said yes sir no sir. School class rooms haven't changed much in size I don't think(could be wrong). Its more with the fact that parents aren't taking an interest in their kids as much because usualy it takes mom and dad working to pay for the life they live. My mom was at home everyday when I got home and my father spanked me if I acted up. I knew right from wrong. I also knew there were going to be consequences for my actions. Kids don't think this way anymore / well the kids acting out like they are. Plus it seems to be more vocal in todays world with the initernet and youtube videos of kids acting people on camera.
Click to expand...
i'm a teacher and i don't care if kids call me by my first name. i also don't wear coattails or a bow tie or confuse terms of address with actual respect or right and wrong.
 
Woodsy said:
Simple lack of respect for adults. In the 50's and 60's you would NEVER see a kid talk back to another adult because he knew if he did, he would get his ass whipped by his Dad if he found out. It's pretty commonplace today to see kids outwardly talking back to adults or other figures of authority and many times the kids of those parents back the kid. You would NEVER have seen that 50 years ago.

Case in point - I tend to be a little more hardline (more willing to give spankings, etc.) than my wife with our kids. So the other day one of the neighbor kids who is probably 12 or 13 is at the end of our street where our house is shooting his paintball gun off through these trees which have a house on the other side. I say "Hey, don't shoot that over here" and the kid walks away. My wife actually thought that I should apologize to this kid for not wanting him shooting his paintball gun off around our house. I told her "If his parents didn't midn him doing it, he would be doing it in their backyard into the field behind their house and not over by our house."
Click to expand...

1. You make bold statements you can't possibly hope to back up, who knows what never transpired 50 years ago. I certainly do not, and I sincerely doubt you do either.

2. Why does everyone use anecdotal evidence in these arguments?

3. Telling a kid to not shoot paintballs around your house isn't something I would constitute as being a 'hard ass'. I don't even really know what this anecdote is trying to say - other than you don't like it when kids shoot paintballs around your house, and your wife seems to not mind it so much.
 
laserbeam said:
They rebelled and stopped giving a shit and have been teaching since then that authority is bad and promoting ideas that weaken the family bond
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Joke character confirmed. You swoop in and out, ignoring past replies to your silly shit, and keep posting more of it.
 
Meus Renaissance said:
The increase of the behaviour of some children is no secret

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/article3564297.ece
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-433024/One-teacher-attacked-day-Britain.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2007/feb/01/schools.uk

The audio link in the OP was of a recent debate on national television regarding the problem.
Click to expand...

Good thing the BBC exists.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/7457616.stm

Published in the wake of those three articles.

Also, aside from the crime stats I posted earlier (other than the claim that attacks on teachers rose 21% in 6 years...with no link to the study), I don't see any actual long term stats that prove that youth in the UK are more anti-social and committing more crime now.

Annnd the closest thing I can find is from 2004.

http://www.nacro.org.uk/data/resources/nacro-2004120243.pdf

Again, contrary to general perceptions, youth offending appears to be falling. The numbers of young people cautioned or sentenced for indictable offences show a gradual, though not uninterrupted, decline over the recent past. Criminal statistics for 1998 did display an increase over the previous year, but the equivalent figures for 1999 suggest that this was a fluctuation rather than a reversal of the general pattern. Thus between 1992 and 1999, 10–17 year olds convicted or cautioned for an indictable offence fell from 143,400 to 120,400; for those under 21 years, the decline over the
same period was from 278,900 to 208,700.​

Oh, and just to counter the inevitable "youth crime up by a third!"

http://www.youthworkinternational.com/articles/20090515_3

Less young people are going to prison now than for many years. Figures are being cautiously welcomed - although experts say that it is too soon to know whether this is a blip or trend.

In March 2009, 2,625 children under 18 were serving custodial sentences in England and Wales. This is a 15% drop of rates from last year - and the lowest level since December 2004.​
 
Jasup said:
So it all backfired.
Click to expand...

An entire generation grew up on open rebellion of the oppressive parents and governmental authorites so it backfired in the fact as they grew up and became parents their "fight" was the basis for how they raised their kids or lack of raising their kid and the cycle just continues down each following generation.

KHarvey16 said:
Joke character confirmed. You swoop in and out, ignoring past replies to your silly shit, and keep posting more of it.
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The facts speak for themselves as far as youth behavior. The worlds Youth was not as fucked up 60 years ago due to a very different parental climate. Unlike you I actually do other things then stare at a thread for 20 hours so I am sorry if I am not posting every 5 minutes.

It goes back to Parents needing to be Parents none of this it takes a Village crap.
 
laserbeam said:
An entire generation grew up on open rebellion of the oppressive parents and governmental authorites so it backfired in the fact as they grew up and became parents their "fight" was the basis for how they raised their kids or lack of raising their kid and the cycle just continues down each following generation.



The facts speak for themselves as far as youth behavior. The worlds Youth was not as fucked up 60 years ago due to a very different parental climate. Unlike you I actually do other things then stare at a thread for 20 hours so I am sorry if I am not posting every 5 minutes.
Click to expand...

Why do people keep saying this, and then not show any facts?!
 
laserbeam said:
The facts speak for themselves as far as youth behavior. The worlds Youth was not as fucked up 60 years ago due to a very different parental climate. Unlike you I actually do other things then stare at a thread for 20 hours so I am sorry if I am not posting every 5 minutes.

It goes back to Parents needing to be Parents none of this it takes a Village crap.
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Show us the facts. If you're not too busy, that is.
 
KHarvey16 said:
:lol :lol

"No" would have saved you time so you can get back to doing all those other important things.
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If you are so invested in proving everything is the same as always bring your facts. So far you are just trolling.
 
quickwhips said:
I knew right from wrong.
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Ok, I'm going to address this. You knew right from wrong, but did you know WHY?
The understanding thing usually fails the most when advocating physical punishment.

laserbeam said:
An entire generation grew up on open rebellion of the oppressive parents and governmental authorites so it backfired in the fact as they grew up and became parents their "fight" was the basis for how they raised their kids or lack of raising their kid and the cycle just continues down each following generation.
Click to expand...
But that couldn't happen because the generation in question was raised properly using discipline.
 
Cocaine.jpg


How would slangin' cane help?
 
laserbeam said:
If you are so invested in proving everything is the same as always bring your facts. So far you are just trolling.
Click to expand...

How many links to violent crime statistics do you need?

Let me ask you this. Did you grow up in NYC in the 70's? Do you have any idea how nice NYC has become over the last 30 years?

There is a book called "The Way We Never Were" about this exact thing. People have a tendency to think things were "better" in the past. They weren't. The only problem you seem to have is admitting that you are wrong when we give you evidence to the contrary.

The same % of people vote in every presidential election.
Crime is way down over the last 20 years (it's about the same level as it was in 63)

We have shown these things to you...what about this do you not get?
 
sure a lot of kids are douche bags, when I was in junior high it was fucking sick at how much shit my class mates could do to teachers
 
I'm glad I went to high school with generally decent people. At least they didn't start anything with the teachers.
 
Kevin said:
Unfortunately, I would say yes. I think it's needed for students who are unwilling to work on their own.
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There is a difference between unwilling and unable. The latter is more often the case than the former, and even then the former usually has a reason that is not addressed with physical punishment.

I suggest you read the whole thread as there is a lot of additional links to proper information, so you don't need to base your opinion on gut feeling.
 
Thing is, corporal punishment can work in very special cases. Statistics showing how unruliness has diminished during the years after corporal punishment was criminalized merely demonstrate a broader trend among youths in our society towards complacency and passivity. Kids these days aren't as rebellious and confrontational as they were in the '60s. But the factors contributing to this trend are manifold and various. A mere shift in correctional methods is far from the only explanation.

The studies also demonstrate, without a doubt, that corporal punishment is usually not a good way of reforming children or adolescents. Nonetheless, I think it is impossible to claim that corporal punishment has absolutely never worked in subduing the violent and aggressive spirits of a single kid ever in the entire history of mankind. The fact of the matter is that people respond to incentives, which constitute not only rewards for good behavior but also punishments for bad behavior. Corporal punishment does have the potential of deterring certain kids from behaving badly without imparting to them any negative side-effects that are too severe. It can be a useful tool in certain situations, and that's why I think light corporal punishment should be an option left open to parents.

However, when it comes to corporal punishment in schools, I think the argument that it can work sometimes, on certain kids, in certain cultures, is beside the point. Schools need to implement disciplinary measures that are standard and that can be universally applied on any individual. The punishments must not endanger the wellbeing of the students or pose any risk of deep psychological trauma. Moreover, teachers and administrators have to feel comfortable exacting these punishments. I highly doubt any of my teachers would have felt at ease spanking me or hurting me in even the most sanitized and regulated of manners. Most teachers have children and empathize with other parents. They wouldn't want a stranger beating their kids. That brings up the ultimate reason why corporal punishment in schools is out of the question. Schools just can't risk parents suing them for beating their kids. Students have rights, and one of those rights is to be secure from physical harm. Period.
 
Crime in NYC has gone down because of major crackdowns in tolerance of crime. Again you link to the period right after the Accepted period of Rebellion against parents and authority began.

Its no coincidence the troublesome period with spikes in crime etc all happened after that.

As far as Teen pregnancies that has nothing to even do with the issue being dicussed.

and Kharvey do you wish to follow me around with a laptop when I am not at home so you can type my replies to neogaf? No not interested? Then shut the fuck up.
 
laserbeam said:
Crime in NYC has gone down because of major crackdowns in tolerance of crime. Again you link to the period right after the Accepted period of Rebellion against parents and authority began.

Its no coincidence the troublesome period with spikes in crime etc all happened after that.

As far as Teen pregnancies that has nothing to even do with the issue being dicussed.

and Kharvey do you wish to follow me around with a laptop when I am not at home so you can type my replies to neogaf? No not interested? Then shut the fuck up.
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Laserbeam debating tactic #1: ignore the parts that prove you wrong.

Laserbeam debating tactic #2: label opponents unwilling to be swayed by bullshit "trolls"
 
KHarvey16 said:
Laserbeam debating tactic #1: ignore the parts that prove you wrong.

Laserbeam debating tactic #2: label opponents unwilling to be swayed by bullshit "trolls"
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All you are doing is trolling so either provide something constructive or go away.
 
1. If so, then it should be an opt in situation for the parents. The parents should have to sign a consent form before the school year begins, and THEN if a principal wants to administer it they should first have to contact the parents to inform them.

2. I favor an idea similar to this one. Basically, if you think the offense warrants severe punishment give the kid a choice between corporal punishment and detention.
 
Gaborn said:
1. If so, then it should be an opt in situation for the parents. The parents should have to sign a consent form before the school year begins, and THEN if a principal wants to administer it they should first have to contact the parents to inform them.

2. I favor an idea similar to this one. Basically, if you think the offense warrants severe punishment give the kid a choice between corporal punishment and detention.
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This I agree with. Punishment really should be a parental thing because as earlier people mentioned there is alot of variables with school based physical punishments that can lead to worse issues.

Of course in this society it is so worked up a Parent taking the option to discipline their child could have CPS called on them.
 
I am completely against corporal punishment, but if some parents want the school to beat their kids for them, well that shit is up to them.
 
:lol

Even Meus Renaissance can't possibly be serious about this question. What is it with him and threads that are beyond retarded?
 
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