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'Shut The Fuck Up, Marvel', a twine essay on Marvel's business over the years

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This is how I would restructure the comic book industry and I'm going to get hate for some of these but whatever:


  • I'll remove the pre-order problem by getting rid of single issue physical releases (outside of rare occasions). This will make collector's salty as fuck but in 2017 single issue comics are only bought by a select niche of people. We live in the digital age now, and despite not knowing any of the digital sales I'm willing to bet they're much much better than issue releases.
  • .99 for digital, 1.99 for physical release for all comics (that is IF you keep physical single issues)
  • When a new series or volume launches I'll give it a quasi-animated trailer on youtube to promote said series, using a narrator to give you a gist of what you can expect from the comic. Think of the Magic the Gathering promotional videos they have for their sets.
  • Drastically reduce the amount of spinoffs and mini-series, focus primarily on runs. Mini-series will still exist but will only be done by prolific writers ala Grant Morrison and etc.
  • Relaunches will be tied entirely to movie releases to get people interested in the comic versions. The relaunches will be released a week or so before the movie to drum up interest for the film as well as get people buying it once they see the film.
  • For longrunning series like Spiderman, Iron Man, Batman, Superman and etc. there will be a mandate to have entire arcs to be resolved in the span of one tradepaperback's worth of content (sometimes two in bigger arcs). Each trade-paperback will have a beginning, middle, and end, even in long runs with the same writer and artist. Readers should be able to pick up a whole trade paperback and get a full story out of it imo.
  • Not only will trailers be given to new series but as well as new arcs for long-running series like the stated above. When Batman faces off against Bane in a new storyline, it's going to be promoted as a big deal to build up hype.
  • No more events, period. They suck. Instead, there will be massive crossover mini-series but they'll be self-contained stories not tied in with ANY of the other comics in any capacity.
This is just my fantasy booking for comics, but this is how I've always wished the model was like.

I'd say this is fairly sensible. In particular, the magazine model used by manga would be greatly beneficial, good quality paper and colour should be used for trades rather than disposable issues, even if the collectors get salty, but fuck them, they're the reason why the industry crashed in the 90s.
 

Sandfox

Member
This is how I would restructure the comic book industry and I'm going to get hate for some of these but whatever:


  • I'll remove the pre-order problem by getting rid of single issue physical releases (outside of rare occasions). This will make collector's salty as fuck but in 2017 single issue comics are only bought by a select niche of people. We live in the digital age now, and despite not knowing any of the digital sales I'm willing to bet they're much much better than issue releases.
  • .99 for digital, 1.99 for physical release for all comics (that is IF you keep physical single issues)
  • When a new series or volume launches I'll give it a quasi-animated trailer on youtube to promote said series, using a narrator to give you a gist of what you can expect from the comic. Think of the Magic the Gathering promotional videos they have for their sets.
  • Drastically reduce the amount of spinoffs and mini-series, focus primarily on runs. Mini-series will still exist but will only be done by prolific writers ala Grant Morrison and etc.
  • Relaunches will be tied entirely to movie releases to get people interested in the comic versions. The relaunches will be released a week or so before the movie to drum up interest for the film as well as get people buying it once they see the film.
  • For longrunning series like Spiderman, Iron Man, Batman, Superman and etc. there will be a mandate to have entire arcs to be resolved in the span of one tradepaperback's worth of content (sometimes two in bigger arcs). Each trade-paperback will have a beginning, middle, and end, even in long runs with the same writer and artist. Readers should be able to pick up a whole trade paperback and get a full story out of it imo.
  • Not only will trailers be given to new series but as well as new arcs for long-running series like the stated above. When Batman faces off against Bane in a new storyline, it's going to be promoted as a big deal to build up hype.
  • No more events, period. They suck. Instead, there will be massive crossover mini-series but they'll be self-contained stories not tied in with ANY of the other comics in any capacity.
This is just my fantasy booking for comics, but this is how I've always wished the model was like.
I'm not sure that would be financially viable for either publishers or retailers.
 

jstripes

Banned
I'd say this is fairly sensible. In particular, the magazine model used by manga would be greatly beneficial, good quality paper and colour should be used for trades rather than disposable issues, even if the collectors get salty, but fuck them, they're the reason why the industry crashed in the 90s.

But the industry is dumb and keeps going back to the collectors.
 
Yeah, that was really interesting. I hadn't realized just how big a deal preorders are, and how horrible a job Marvel is doing at bringing this to the attention of consumers, and how relaunches usually result in a net loss in readers.
 
I'd say this is fairly sensible. In particular, the magazine model used by manga would be greatly beneficial, good quality paper and colour should be used for trades rather than disposable issues, even if the collectors get salty, but fuck them, they're the reason why the industry crashed in the 90s.
It's too late to do the Shonen Jump model.
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
[*]I'll remove the pre-order problem by getting rid of single issue physical releases (outside of rare occasions). This will make collector's salty as fuck but in 2017 single issue comics are only bought by a select niche of people. We live in the digital age now, and despite not knowing any of the digital sales I'm willing to bet they're much much better than issue releases.

Physical single issues sell three to four times higher than digital single issues.
 

Khezu

Member
I personally don't think western comics can ever/will ever fix the problems they have.

The niche market that is stupid enough to keep buying comics will just shrink and shrink.

All the talk about expanding the audience to new, younger, and more diverse markets is completely pointless if you are too scared to change your business model. A business model that only the most hardcore comic book nerds are willing to put up with.
 
Also spits fire at just how hard it is to keep up with what you like (as a former X-Men fan, I almost want to buy the guy a beer.)

Colin's a smart dude and regularly has pretty sharp stuff to say about the comics industry.

....why on earth would someone make this into a downloadle text-click 'game', rather than just putting it up on some other medium?

Because by making it a Twine, he can post it on itch.io (where he already has a storefront set up to sell actual games) as a PWYW and get some cash for it without making it inaccessible. And the people that already follow him on twitter, etc. would've already been pretty familiar.

This is a really dumb article. This "preorder" system as he calls it is literally how the entire retail business works.

You need to understand the specific ways the comic system differs from other retail systems (including the ones that other media have used in the past) to really interact with the issue here. Just noticing that the broad strokes are similar to some other retail businesses isn't useful at all.

It's a perfectly legitimate grievance to not want heavy-handed politics in your hobby.

Nope, incorrect.

They're more like very long running episodic TV franchises with a bunch of different writers, and individual storylines that sometimes have lasting effects.

I mean, this comparison doesn't do comics many favors since someone interested in a TV show these days can usually just load up a single digital service and binge it from the beginning in order without having to do any kind of complicated process just to even figure out what order to watch in or where storyline breaks happen.
 

rrs

Member
my 5 cents on this post
This is how I would restructure the comic book industry and I'm going to get hate for some of these but whatever:


  • I'll remove the pre-order problem by getting rid of single issue physical releases (outside of rare occasions). This will make collector's salty as fuck but in 2017 single issue comics are only bought by a select niche of people. We live in the digital age now, and despite not knowing any of the digital sales I'm willing to bet they're much much better than issue releases.I don't think taking a piss on the retail chain is a well advised move.
  • .99 for digital, 1.99 for physical release for all comics (that is IF you keep physical single issues)how the fuck are you supposed to pay for all the shit you are about to talk about with those prices; and day one digital discounts will only anger the retail chain
  • When a new series or volume launches I'll give it a quasi-animated trailer on youtube to promote said series, using a narrator to give you a gist of what you can expect from the comic. Think of the Magic the Gathering promotional videos they have for their sets.I'd agree with there needing to be some focused promotional videos, but anything on par with MtG stuff would cost massive amounts of money that could only be paid through the higher profit margins of collectable card games.
  • Drastically reduce the amount of spinoffs and mini-series, focus primarily on runs. Mini-series will still exist but will only be done by prolific writers ala Grant Morrison and etc.honestly disagree, I can see it being fine as long as it doesn't result in the mainline comic reader needing to also read it to catch up with every last thing
  • Relaunches will be tied entirely to movie releases to get people interested in the comic versions. The relaunches will be released a week or so before the movie to drum up interest for the film as well as get people buying it once they see the film.film release dates can wildly vary, so doing anything too movie related could be a net negative. However, I think support could be drummed up just fine with some recap side series to get new readers to jump in, or just not make it complicated to get into the series
  • For longrunning series like Spiderman, Iron Man, Batman, Superman and etc. there will be a mandate to have entire arcs to be resolved in the span of one tradepaperback's worth of content (sometimes two in bigger arcs). Each trade-paperback will have a beginning, middle, and end, even in long runs with the same writer and artist. Readers should be able to pick up a whole trade paperback and get a full story out of it imo.I don't think constraints to arc length is a good idea considering release pace
  • Not only will trailers be given to new series but as well as new arcs for long-running series like the stated above. When Batman faces off against Bane in a new storyline, it's going to be promoted as a big deal to build up hype.
  • No more events, period. They suck. Instead, there will be massive crossover mini-series but they'll be self-contained stories not tied in with ANY of the other comics in any capacity.I don't mind major events, but it should be a 10-20 year thing before hitting reset in a giant epic crossover. That way there's a large sales boom to go along with it instead of now where there's 3 canon resets in the time it took for you to read this sentence.
This is just my fantasy booking for comics, but this is how I've always wished the model was like.
 

border

Member
Everyone's suggestions are measured and reasonable. But it just isn't going to happen. Marvel is the Gamestop of comic books. They are going to desperately hump their losing business model until they go bankrupt, because it's too scary to try and branch out.

It's almost a shame that they are Disney-owned now, because if they were still an independent company their shareholders would be hammering them for failing to capitalize on the popularity of Marvel movies. Instead they are just a line-item in Disney's massive budget, and nobody is really paying attention to their failures.
 
Yeah, this shit is the worst. Do they even provide a reading order? Or do we have to wait for a good soul to do it and post online??
DC? Yep. Marvel? No. Marvel wanted people to read 3 tie-ins before the first Secret Empire issue and they were all out the same day. DC puts this at the back of all books weeks or sometimes months before the event starts:
ajuut.jpg
 

Sandfox

Member
Everyone's suggestions are measured and reasonable. But it just isn't going to happen. Marvel is the Gamestop of comic books. They are going to desperately hump their losing business model until they go bankrupt, because it's too scary to try and branch out.

It's almost a shame that they are Disney-owned now, because if they were still an independent company their shareholders would be hammering them for failing to capitalize on the popularity of Marvel movies. Instead they are just a line-item in Disney's massive budget, and nobody is really paying attention to their failures.
I don't think the shareholders would care as much about the comic side as you seem to think. They would be focused on the movies and merchandise because that's where the real money is.
DC? Yep. Marvel? No. Marvel wanted people to read 3 tie-ins before the first Secret Empire issue and they were all out the same day. DC puts this at the back of all books weeks or sometimes months before the event starts:

I really hope you don't actually believe this.
 
I don't think the shareholders would care as much about the comic side as you seem to think. They would be focused on the movies and merchandise because that's where the real money is.


I really hope you don't actually believe this.
Marvel didn't tell people what order to read USAvengers, SteveCap, Thunderbolts and SE #0. We had tons of confusion about it on twitter. Stores started retweeting a BC article about the best order hours in.

I miss Hickman's charts.
 

Sandfox

Member
Marvel didn't tell people what order to read USAvengers, SteveCap, Thunderbolts and SE #0. We had tons of confusion about it on twitter. Stores started retweeting a BC article about the best order hours in.

I miss Hickman's charts.

Or they could've looked at the books, which actually tell you. I was responding to you saying they don't put out reading orders anyways.
 

Rorschach

Member
Constant events, prices, and retcons got me out of superhero comics. They wanted to appease movie fans with some of the retcon stuff, but all it did was alienate the fans they already had. Movie fans aren't all going to go buy comics because they saw Guardians or Winter Soldier.

Oh, and I don't need 10 Wolverines or 10 Hulks or 20 Spider-things. Also, if you're going to give them fully grown kids, it's time for the originals to move on.
 
Constant events, prices, and retcons got me out of superhero comics. They wanted to appease movie fans with some of the retcon stuff, but all it did was alienate the fans they already had. Movie fans aren't all going to go buy comics because they saw Guardians or Winter Soldier.

Oh, and I don't need 10 Wolverines or 10 Hulks or 20 Spider-things. Also, if you're going to give them fully grown kids, it's time for the originals to move on.

Oh good Lord, do I have a story for you:

History of the Clone Saga

It's a 20 minute video talking about the history of the Clone Saga, and how Marvel kept fucking up an event designed to do just that.

And before anyone starts on the 'DC does it too' train, stop for one fucking second and realize that Colin directly addresses it in his essay.

Partially I want to jump in because I'm just so fucking tired. I'm so fucking tired of comics being among the worst run entertainment businesses in the world. I'm so fucking tired of all the people who work in comics ginning up defense after defense of the system, looking for ways to blame anybody but themselves. I'm particularly fucking tired of editors and writers and artists and all that blaming fans for poor sales, and completely divesting themselves and their company from any responsibility for books failing, for direct market sales being low. I'm really fucking tired of an industry that can't seem to put in the bare minimum of work for actually promoting a title, or actually learning anything about modern markets, modern buyers, how to reach out beyond their pre-existing bubble.

There's so much I'm fucking tired about with comics, and I'm really quite tired of businesses and their heads and their creatives fucking up in spectacular style, then blaming everybody else.

The fuckups are pretty endemic to the industry as a whole. But Marvel in particular has a problem of not being able to keep their mouths fucking shut. DC's loaded with issues of its own, but it doesn't get on the bullhorn to blame Marvel for them, to blame readers for them, and what have you. Anytime Marvel gets questioned or criticized, they quickly move to either dismissing it outright, or to blame someone, anyone, else.

So I'm focusing on them even more than before in this piece. I'm focusing on their bullshit practices and their bullshit defenses for those practices.
 

ElNarez

Banned
Or they could've looked at the books, which actually tell you. I was responding to you saying they don't put out reading orders anyways.

I'm gonna call bullshit on that for a very simple reason.

There were 3 Secret Empire tie-ins. All of them had a "Secret Empire: Opening Salvo" banner on top of them and nothing else. No number, no reading order, no nothing. There's a reading order in the book, but you have to look inside the book to find it.

DC launched a crossover this week called "The Button". On the very top of the cover, in the Rebirth trade dress, there's a banner that reads "The Button Part One". As a matter of fact, every DC book save for two has the name of the current storyline in that banner. And there's even a "Part One" to advertise the start of the storyline.

So, yeah, DC are doing the work to make comics more accessible in a way Marvel are not.
 
I'm gonna call bullshit on that for a very simple reason.

There were 3 Secret Empire tie-ins. All of them had a "Secret Empire: Opening Salvo" banner on top of them and nothing else. No number, no reading order, no nothing. There's a reading order in the book, but you have to look inside the book to find it.

DC launched a crossover this week called "The Button". On the very top of the cover, in the Rebirth trade dress, there's a banner that reads "The Button Part One". As a matter of fact, every DC book save for two has the name of the current storyline in that banner. And there's even a "Part One" to advertise the start of the storyline.

So, yeah, DC are doing the work to make comics more accessible in a way Marvel are not.
Hell, aren't Marvel putting out a guidebook just to make sense of all their relaunches since Now!? Making 6 books be Captain Marvel Vol 1 became too much for even them.
 
This is a really dumb article. This "preorder" system as he calls it is literally how the entire retail business works. Buying a product from a store doesn't give the creator money. They get their money from the store.

Man, I have a ton of material now to quote every time someone says things like this that simply aren't informed how the industry works. Another quote from the essay:

Now you might think, if and when you go to a comic shop, and you pick up a comic off the rack, and you hand the money over to the cashier, that is when a comic is sold, right? That's where everything matters, and buying it like that is where you make an impact on the sales of a comic, helping it last long, hopefully avoiding cancellation.

That makes total sense. It's a method that values the consumer's choice at a relatively consumer friendly level. It's also completely wrong.

Comics are sold to retailers through pre-orders. Comics are also, due to a long complex history of fuck ups dating back to the 70s and a distribution monopoly starting in the 90s and whatnot, non-returnable. Any comic a retailer buys, they are stuck with that comic. That's why you see all those bins full of back issues. Any comic not sold can't be sent back to the publisher for a refund. So they have to hope they can sell it off later by someone digging through, hoping to complete a collection or the like.

Back to the matter of pre-orders: A comic shop actually orders these non-returnable comics three months in advance. At a time when all anybody might know about a comic is the title, the cover, maybe the creative team, and a small description of the book in a solicit... that is when comics are "sold".

Comics sales aren't determined by how much a retailer actually manages to sell. They're determined by how much a retailer thinks they can sell. And this decision is made 3 months in advance, including for issue number ones, where people have little to no idea of the quality of the book.

Or, far more frequently, they have no idea that the book exists.

So, point one of my telling Marvel to shut the fuck up: Your ordering system is one of your real biggest problems.

Let's dig a little deeper into this.

After being told about comics direct market's pre-order system, you might say to yourself "That's one of the worst fucking systems I've ever heard." And guess what! I'd completely agree with you! But it actually gets worse!

Not only is this system incredibly consumer unfriendly, most people don't even know about it. And yes, that includes many people who already read and buy comics. Be they buying it in digital, or in trade form, or even going to their comic store - if they have one in their area - and buying it off the rack. People, whether they don't know the first thing about comics, or if they can recite point for point the entirety of the plot where Captain America turned into a werewolf, often have absolutely no fucking clue that the way they're "supposed" to buy a comic is through a pre-order system.

When I talk about comic sales a lot, people often ask me "Does this include digitial?" No, never does. Nobody ever says how much a comic actually sells in digital, for one. The most we can ever go on is getting vague ideas of what's doing how well in digital by looking at Comixology's top sellers.

And even we did know digital sales numbers, they're irrelevant here. The quotes from David Gabriel were about direct market sales and retailers. Ultimately, this conversation is about the direct market and the difficulties retailers have been having on making a profit with Marvel's books, not the success of those books as a whole on their own. If a book does dynamite sales in digital, it means nothing in this regard - and actually functions as a retailer's worst nightmare, as they're terrified of losing customers to digital sales. It's not like comics are a particularly profitable field in general.

So we're talking about direct market sales exclusively. Ms. Marvel's incredible digital sales help keep her book successful, but they mean jack squat to a retailer who's just trying to keep their head above water.

Which means we're talking about a system where a comic's success, whether it avoids cancellation or not, can be determined before you read a single issue.

In this case, my mind immediately jumps to Iron Patriot.

Iron Patriot is a little... all over the place. Some people might remember Iron Patriot from the Iron Man movies, but before that, Iron Patriot was the name Norman Osborn took on during a plot where basically a bunch of supervillains replaced the Avengers. And currently, Iron Patriot is piloted by Toni Ho, over in Al Ewing's U.S.Avengers.

But for a brief time in the comics, James Rhodes was Iron Patriot, like he was (also briefly) in the movies.

I'll get back later about the timing and marketing about all this, but first things first is talking about his series proper.

In 2014, Iron Patriot was launched as part of the All New Marvel NOW! line. Which... okay, I'll need to come back to the All New Marvel NOW! which is different from Marvel NOW! which is different from Avengers NOW! which is Marvel NOW! 2.0.

I don't like pointing fingers at any one specific deal that causes comics' problems. It's a lot of things coming together. I'll try to avoid going on tangents.

Anyway. Iron Patriot, 2014. Marvel gives James Rhodes his own book for the first time in awhile, trying to piggyback some off the movies with making him 'Iron Patriot' at all instead of keeping him as War Machine (this decision actually happened earlier, while he was in Secret Avengers). All good, right? Rhodey's been able to maintain his own solo before as War Machine, and he's taken over as Iron Man for Tony Stark more than once.

Buttttt here's the thing. Before the series even gets its first issue out, it gets downgraded from an ongoing series to a miniseries.

That's right: before anyone got to read a single page of the book and decide for themselves if it was worth their money, it was already downgraded. In so many other mediums, in so many other industries, this kind of thing would sound ridiculous, but this is the way comics is. Everything's determined deep in advance. A book's early survival, issues 1-3, and the foundation for everything after, really all comes down to how many people are interested and willing to go to their local comic store (if they have one) and tell the person behind the register that they want to buy this comic when it comes out. That way the retailer notes their interest, adds it to their order, maybe pumps it up even a little more because they might think they're able to sell more of this book now that interest has been expressed.

And that's before you get to see a single page. Most comics don't get any real previews released until the week before release, and that's far too late to contribute to the shop's orders. They're moving on already to deciding how much to order of issue 3 before you even walk in the store that day.

This ordering system, this economic system, is why 'quality' is largely irrelevant to a book's success. Many times, you may not even know who the creative team is on a particular book by the time you're 'supposed' to order. And you can imagine how difficult this makes things for new artists, new writers.

And that's Iron Patriot just getting downgraded from an ongoing series. Series can actually get outright cancelled before they come out. There was supposed to be a Victor Von Doom mini in 2011. It got axed the month before it was supposed to start. It happened again with a Thanos mini-series in 2012. There was also a mini-series called Destroyers featuring She-Hulk along with The Thing, Beast, Devil Dinosaur and others in 2012 by Fred Van Lente and Kyle Hotz... which also got thrown to the chopping block before anyone could read a single issue. Hell, Newsarama had an interview with Van Lente on his plans for the book.

But that's the way things are. If a retailer doesn't order enough of a book that they're largely buying blind, if not enough buyers in the area come to their store and show interest in a book to encourage to the retailer to buy those comics blindly, they can easily just never come out at all. This puts huge pressure on the retailer to basically take wild guesses on what will sell well and what won't, and also puts a giant weight of pressure on the comics readers and consumers to research and keep up with comics news month to month, week to week, and go to their retailer and commit to purchases three whole months in advance.

And again, knowing almost nothing about said books, except a title, a cover, and a creative team. And sometimes not even the creative team.

It's not just how fucked up the ordering system is that bothers me, though.

It's how Marvel doesn't tell anybody about it.

Let's talk Mockingbird.
 
Honestly, this is well worth a read, as its well thought out and he makes some good point. As far as people complaining about the engine, I think that it actually works here, and is a lot more readable. Here's a point about the way comics are actually sold, as a small excerpt:
Can you not just order from Marvel direct and ignore all the problems listed? You'd no doubt be informed of new comics to pre-order too from that or online.
 
Constant events, prices, and retcons got me out of superhero comics. They wanted to appease movie fans with some of the retcon stuff, but all it did was alienate the fans they already had. Movie fans aren't all going to go buy comics because they saw Guardians or Winter Soldier.

Oh, and I don't need 10 Wolverines or 10 Hulks or 20 Spider-things. Also, if you're going to give them fully grown kids, it's time for the originals to move on.
There's only 2 Wolverine book that star Old Man Logan and Laura, 2 Hulk books that star main Hulk and She Hulk, and the numerous Spider books are all different than the Amazing Spider-Man. It's not as a lot as you make it out to be. Asking for the originals to move on is a double edged sword. If it's not handled perfectly a lot of people are just gonna want the original back.
Can you not just order from Marvel direct and ignore all the problems listed? You'd no doubt be informed of new comics to pre-order too from that or online.
If I'm not mistaken almost all comic companies go through Diamond.
 

Rorschach

Member
There's only 2 Wolverine book that star Old Man Logan and Laura, 2 Hulk books that star main Hulk and She Hulk, and the numerous Spider books are all different than the Amazing Spider-Man. It's not as a lot as you make it out to be. Asking for the originals to move on is a double edged sword. If it's not handled perfectly a lot of people are just gonna want the original back.

If I'm not mistaken almost all comic companies go through Diamond.

Fail to see where I wrote "books." Maybe I'm too drunk. If you don't want the originals to move on, stop giving me derivatives. Give me something new or develop your current stable.

Oh good Lord, do I have a story for you:

History of the Clone Saga

It's a 20 minute video talking about the history of the Clone Saga, and how Marvel kept fucking up an event designed to do just that.

And before anyone starts on the 'DC does it too' train, stop for one fucking second and realize that Colin directly addresses it in his essay.

Thanks for the vid. I lived through that saga and it kinda explains why it seemed so disjointed and aimless.
 
Can you not just order from Marvel direct and ignore all the problems listed? You'd no doubt be informed of new comics to pre-order too from that or online.

You can subscribe to digital or physical issues through Marvel directly, but it's historically been an inferior experience.

For a year, I subscribed to a physical copy of a title through Marvel. Sometimes the issue would be a week late, sometimes a month late -- never on time. Usually, it would be bent in half.
 
Has Marvel or anyone ever done a Japanese style weekly book or whatever with 4 page stories for Spider-Man, Captain America, Thor, etc. Print it black and white jam them in grocery stores and then end of the year separate them as 208 page colour annuals per character?

I'd even go for this. Lord I used to love reading those Spider-Man comics in the newspaper.
 

hamchan

Member
I wonder how someone who just buys TPBs contributes to a series staying alive. Because that's me and I will never buy floppies with how much they cost while still containing ads.
 

Slayven

Member
Has Marvel or anyone ever done a Japanese style weekly book or whatever with 4 page stories for Spider-Man, Captain America, Thor, etc. Print it black and white jam them in grocery stores and then end of the year separate them as 208 page colour annuals per character?

I'd even go for this. Lord I used to love reading those Spider-Man comics in the newspaper.

Crossgen tried something similar but they went under
 
I think the real problem with comics is how the characters are owned by the companies instead of the writers so they get overly dependent on the same handful of characters and ideas. If the business was structured more like manga or books I dont think comics would have the same identity problem, new and interesting stuff would just naturally pop up and you wouldnt need big continuity events to get people interested
 

rrs

Member
I think the real problem with comics is how the characters are owned by the companies instead of the writers so they get overly dependent on the same handful of characters and ideas. If the business was structured more like manga or books I dont think comics would have the same identity problem, new and interesting stuff would just naturally pop up and you wouldnt need big continuity events to get people interested
Not really, in a sales sense. The big studios do put out original stuff but very few got close to the preorder sales of the big cape leagues which matter the most in Marvel's world. Also the constant cycle through of series does not help long term sales
 
Not really, in a sales sense. The big studios do put out original stuff but very few got close to the preorder sales of the big cape leagues which matter the most in Marvel's world. Also the constant cycle through of series does not help long term sales

Yeah and I think thats a symptom of the company owning these characters and making new issues for decades. If "canon" spiderman was just a series of comics owned by stan lee from 1955 -1970 or something and everything else didnt exist, spiderman probably wouldnt be as dominant of a comic book force today and the biggest runs would be other stories that replaced spiderman after it ended. Like how a new TV show replaces an old one that got cancelled. Spiderman could still be a cultural phenomenon retelling his classic stories in other mediums, but when it comes to new comics other characters would take his place.

Basically in my opinion for sales to get better marvel needs to stop making comics and owning spiderman, hulk, and iron man and instead be a publisher for writers to make their stories about comic characters and then end it forever whenever they want, just like manga and books. But that will never happen lol
 
It's so damn hard to get into Marvel comics. There's so much you need to know that i lose interest quickly every time i try.

And if you can't get me in as a super nerd who is actually very interested, you have a problem
 
Aren't both things basically true? The core comic audience - the archetypal comic book nerd as seen on TV/movies/etc - has rejected the rapid fire changes occurring in the comic world, AND Marvel comics have done a piss poor job at, well, everything which has not really expanded the audience to beyond the core market. So either they can try to get more people (HARD) or re-focus to pander to the core market. Is the issue in the Marvel camp only or is DC affected as well? Last comic book I read was over 30 years ago when I was a teenager.

Its very similar to gaming I'd imagine, where console gaming is fairly static in audience and doesn't expand very much which is why we get a new COD and Assassins Creed and NFL every year, whereas mobile and PC gaming (and maybe Nintendo, I dunno) has expanded a lot more and become more inclusive and diverse, not only in representation but also genres, game play, difficulty levels, accessibility, pricing, etc.

I've always seen the Marvel comic book "factory" as more an incubation machine at this point for movie concepts and ideas, sort of a place where the best ideas fight it out and evolve to the point where they can be re-deployed to movies and TV.
 
I'm confused as to why they can't make different content for different markets. If Moon Girl/Devil Dinosaur is a smash hit in school book fairs, then focus on having content for those with a quarterly trade and release the single issues digitally. Expecting an audience of 35-45 y/o guys who go to comic shops weekly to be all about a book focused on a 9 year old girl seems weird to me. The sales show that too. In March 2017 that book sold 8200 copies to comic shops.

Maybe there's a way to focus on both audiences and make money from both.
 

rrs

Member
Yeah and I think thats a symptom of the company owning these characters and making new issues for decades. If "canon" spiderman was just a series of comics owned by stan lee from 1955 -1970 or something and everything else didnt exist, spiderman probably wouldnt be as dominant of a comic book force today and the biggest runs would be other stories that replaced spiderman after it ended. Like how a new TV show replaces an old one that got cancelled. Spiderman could still be a cultural phenomenon retelling his classic stories in other mediums, but when it comes to new comics other characters would take his place.

Basically in my opinion for sales to get better marvel needs to stop making comics and owning spiderman, hulk, and iron man and instead be a publisher for writers to make their stories about comic characters and then end it forever whenever they want, just like manga and books. But that will never happen lol
Of course not, because marvel and dc would had been steamrolled by someone who understands that sometimes you gotta have different writers to keep a series running, and the lights on to find the next big thing
 
This is how I would restructure the comic book industry and I'm going to get hate for some of these but whatever:


  • I'll remove the pre-order problem by getting rid of single issue physical releases (outside of rare occasions). This will make collector's salty as fuck but in 2017 single issue comics are only bought by a select niche of people. We live in the digital age now, and despite not knowing any of the digital sales I'm willing to bet they're much much better than issue releases.
  • .99 for digital, 1.99 for physical release for all comics (that is IF you keep physical single issues)
  • When a new series or volume launches I'll give it a quasi-animated trailer on youtube to promote said series, using a narrator to give you a gist of what you can expect from the comic. Think of the Magic the Gathering promotional videos they have for their sets.
  • Drastically reduce the amount of spinoffs and mini-series, focus primarily on runs. Mini-series will still exist but will only be done by prolific writers ala Grant Morrison and etc.
  • Relaunches will be tied entirely to movie releases to get people interested in the comic versions. The relaunches will be released a week or so before the movie to drum up interest for the film as well as get people buying it once they see the film.
  • For longrunning series like Spiderman, Iron Man, Batman, Superman and etc. there will be a mandate to have entire arcs to be resolved in the span of one tradepaperback's worth of content (sometimes two in bigger arcs). Each trade-paperback will have a beginning, middle, and end, even in long runs with the same writer and artist. Readers should be able to pick up a whole trade paperback and get a full story out of it imo.
  • Not only will trailers be given to new series but as well as new arcs for long-running series like the stated above. When Batman faces off against Bane in a new storyline, it's going to be promoted as a big deal to build up hype.
  • No more events, period. They suck. Instead, there will be massive crossover mini-series but they'll be self-contained stories not tied in with ANY of the other comics in any capacity.
This is just my fantasy booking for comics, but this is how I've always wished the model was like.

Single issues are still by far the biggest revenue stream for comic books. Also, digital sales are about 10% of the market. What you are proposing would destroy the comic book industry.
 
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