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[Piggus]

Sucks if you had to play it on a console.

A perfectly valid choice by PC gamer when you consider how incredible the PC version is with a bit of tweaking and mods.

 

[N2NOther]

Sorry if I was rude; but when you ask of a comparable scope, you are basically comparing it with any other game. Skyrim, being more or less an action/RPG, has A LOT of competition. There are action/RPGs with much better combat mechanism, with better stories, better sound design; they just don't have a comparably big 3D world.

Maybe as a simple example, Deus Ex can provide for a very good comparison.

It's cool, the Internet and all that. When I say scope I mean the whole thing. The giant world, the many different quest lines, the entire game. Sure a lot of games do specific elements better but I'm genuinely curious as to what games are that ambitious that people think are better. Again, I'm not saying Skyrim is the best.

 

[bengraven]

It's not a hyperbole, it's coincidence.

You didn't phrase it like "coincidence'. ha

 

[Almighty]

It's cool, the Internet and all that. When I say scope I mean the whole thing. The giant world, the many different quest lines, the entire game. Sure a lot of games do specific elements better but I'm genuinely curious as to what games are that ambitious that people think are better. Again, I'm not saying Skyrim is the best.

Morrowind.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

I'm sure plenty of games have more consequence, but just because Skyrim doesn't have it at Alpha Protocol's level it's excluded from being somebody's #1 PC game?

Skyrim isn't perfect, and obviously its not well liked by many in this thread, but nobody should be shocked that quite a lot players HAVE had a spectacular time with it and hold it in the highest esteem. Shocking news.

I don't hate skyrim, but it doesn't exist in a vacuum.
There is a LOT of competition for RPGs on the PC, many of which do everything (vanilla) Skyrim does but better.

Treating Skyrim as a 'platform' rather than a standalone game and including every possible mod not only that currently exists but that also may exist in the future may get closer to justifying it in a top ten list (although by that standard HL1 absolutely kills it) but it is really hard to argue it as a #1 PC game of all time if you've been playing PC games longer than say the last 2 years.

 

[FoZzI bEaR]

You didn't phrase it like "coincidence'. ha

And you called the boring people I know shitty. Isn't that hyperbole? :')

 

[28 Posts Later]

As long as you don't spout your opinion as objective truth to anyone who does genuinely enjoy a game you may view as trash than your right, I could care less, but most people can't just hold an opinion without infusing some other meta comment to it.

So this doesn't really have anything to do with opinions on games, you merely dislike the general snarky nature of internet gaming discussion?

It could just be because they legitimately enjoy Skyrim, and in the case of pc gamer, people for whatever reason just don't want any part of accepting that

Others are perfectly entitled to dismiss PC Gamers opinion and rally around their own.

 

[NullPointer]

There is a LOT of competition for RPGs on the PC, many of which do everything (vanilla) Skyrim does but better.

Honestly curious, but which ones?

And on a side note, I don't see the need to focus on vanilla Skyrim. Its the PC version we're talking about and it was designed to be mod friendly, so I think its fair to refer to the game + mods.

 

[Zinthar]

Am I the only person who really loved Skyrim?

or am I not allowed to say "really loved" without it being taken as "OMG BEST GAME EVER I'M IGNORING ALL CRITICISM"?

I'm in this camp, too. Skyrim is hardly a flawless game, but the other contenders certainly aren't either. What Skyrim brings is arguably the most interesting open world to explore together with the most dynamic modding community in PC gaming.

It's not my favorite game ever, but I don't have a problem with it being at the top of the list any more than I would seeing Deus Ex or Half-Life 2 there. Hell, Skyrim taking over the spot from Deus Ex makes sense in a way, considering the biggest flaw of each is probably their sub-par first-person combat mechanics, which is only mitigated by the fact that in each game you have so many options for how to engage. But having lots of options evidently goes a long way with PC gamer's editorial staff.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Honestly curious, but which ones?

On an individual feature level, or as a totality?

And on a side note, I don't see the need to focus on vanilla Skyrim. Its the PC version we're talking about and it was designed to be mod friendly, so I think its fair to refer to the game + mods.

But again, HL1 absolutely kills it if you count HL1 plus all its mods.

 

[bengraven]

And you called the boring people I know shitty. Isn't that hyperbole? :')

Touche. ha

I'm in this camp, too. Skyrim is hardly a flawless game, but the other contenders certainly aren't either. What Skyrim brings is arguably the most interesting open world to explore together with the most dynamic modding community in PC gaming.

It's not my favorite game ever, but I don't have a problem with it being at the top of the list any more than I would seeing Deus Ex or Half-Life 2 there. Hell, Skyrim taking over the spot from Deus Ex makes sense in a way, considering the biggest flaw of each is probably their sub-par first-person combat mechanics, which is only mitigated by the fact that in each game you have so many options for how to engage. But having lots of options evidently goes a long way with PC gamer's editorial staff.

Yeah, if you looked at my top 50 games, you'd see the vast majority are what GAF would consider "great games". I understand why many hardcore gamers don't like it, since they're very different games than Baldur's Gate or Deus Ex.

But I will say that I really enjoy how Bethesda structures their games - how they create their worlds. I love the lore and the atmosphere and I love exploring. I don't care so much about combat and magic systems in an RPG: my favorite parts were always the dialogue, lore, and just playing a role. Things that made me love games like Deus Ex, Arcanum, and New Vegas. But I also love Fallout 3 and Oblivion. But it's almost become a running joke to hate on Bethesda - I'm not a fan of defending them, but I do occasionally white knight because it just gets old.

 

[NullPointer]

On an individual feature level, or as a totality?

The ones that do everything Skyrim does, but better.

I've played the other Bethesda RPGs since Morrowind, but I'm all for giving others a try if they let me get my TES-like exploration and thievery and dungeon delving on.

But again, HL1 absolutely kills it if you count HL1 plus all its mods.

In terms of numbers of mods? I can believe that - the game has been around for far longer and beloved by many.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

The ones that do everything Skyrim does, but better.

I've played the other Bethesda RPGs since Morrowind, but I'm all for giving others a try if they let me get my TES-like exploration and thievery and dungeon delving on.

Thats why I asked if you mean as a totality or as component elements; if you think everything Skyrim does is perfect, then there is intriniscally no better game.

If you just like thieving, dungeon exploring and looting, shit, dungeon siege.

In terms of numbers of mods? I can believe that - the game has been around for far longer and beloved by many.

Quantity, quality and importance.

 

[Shai-Tan]

I tried really hard to see what the big deal was with this game... got 9 hours in was so bored i havent come back. Maybe it requires more of an investment?

I spent 30 hours and felt the same way

 

[Onyar]

A lot of people seems to be very against this, I suppose it's because there are feeling involved. No offense but it's like the movies, no one have the answer for which one is the best, and maybe the criticism should be for trying to gave an answer.
At the end all reduces to the question:

Videogames are art? The question of the best game can't be solved because art is subjective by definition.
Videogames aren't art? We must see the parameters to see if what they say is true.

 

[Almighty]

And on a side note, I don't see the need to focus on vanilla Skyrim. Its the PC version we're talking about and it was designed to be mod friendly, so I think its fair to refer to the game + mods.

Personally I think we should only be talking about vanilla in these types of conversation. I dunno maybe it is just me, but giving Bethesda credit for mods is giving them credit for other peoples work. Sure they might of made it easy, but there are plenty of games out there that are just as if not more mod friendly then Bethesda's.

I guess I am trying to say that we should judge the game and the developer based on what they released and not what their fans added to it over the years. Maybe I am in the minority on that.

 

[NullPointer]

Thats why I asked if you mean as a totality or as a whole; if you think everything Skyrim does is perfect, then there is intriniscally no better game.

Hah, I certainly don't think Skyrim is the end-all-be-all of everything it attempts. It tries to do a LOT so that many different people can find something to love in the game. In my particular case of forging my own path stealth/archery/hunting/thievery/assassinations the total package is better than any other game I know.

If you play for melee or magic you might have different opinions, mods depending. Personally I don't like melee much outside of backstabs. If I was going that direction I'd look for mods to tune it more towards my liking (fewer, far more important hits, more focus on stamina).

But DungeonSiege? Ehh, no, I wouldn't really say that stacks up at all. I did play both 1 and 2 long ago and enjoyed them for what they were - Diabloish clones with handy ponies for lootstuffs. Not anywhere near what I seek in Skyrim.

Personally I think we should only be talking about vanilla in these types of conversation. I dunno maybe it is just me, but giving Bethesda credit for mods is giving them credit for other peoples work. Sure they might of made it easy, but there are plenty of games out there that are just as if not more mod friendly then Bethesda's.

I give Bethesda credit for making a dynamic open world and a mod friendly game. Credit for the mods goes to the community. Credit for the modded game providing so much damn fun to so many goes to both Bethesda and the community, depending upon how much those mods added to or fixed the experience for each player.

But if we're talking PC Gamer and GAF I'd have to imagine the majority of us are playing Skyrim with mods. I just thought that was a given. I could be wrong though ;P

 

[mkenyon]

Listen to a podcast with their current editorial staff. It'll all make sense.

 

[Syf]

Yikes.. I can think of a dozen games I'd put ahead of Skyrim from this generation alone.

 

[Zinthar]

Personally I think we should only be talking about vanilla in these types of conversation. I dunno maybe it is just me, but giving Bethesda credit for mods is giving them credit for other peoples work. Sure they might of made it easy, but there are plenty of games out there that are just as if not more mod friendly then Bethesda's.

I guess I am trying to say that we should judge the game and the developer based on what they released and not what their fans add to it over the years. Maybe I am in the minority on that.

The point of the list isn't just to give the developer credit for the game, though. If the modding community made Skyrim into something much greater than what it originally was upon release, then that's a fair consideration when you're talking about the best PC games -- a platform that has long been reliant on communities to drive games with player-created content.

Skyrim is PC modding's poster-child from the perspective that almost no two people will use the same mods. There have been single, huge mods like Counter Strike and DOTA that have become games on their own; and there are games like Dark Souls that more or less require a single important mod to fix major problems in the game. But with TES games you still end up with the same underlying game, but with loads of tweaks that personalize the game and make it what you want.

Now Bethesda, we need to sit down and have a talk about that engine you're using...

 

[zkylon]

Saying a game like Skyrim is objectively crap is the kind of hyperbole and nonsense I'm talking about, and this is coming from someone who feels Skyrim isn't even that great. The truth is the game was critically praised and is one of the highest rated games on metacritic of all time. So whatever assumption or standard you hold to a "knowledgeable game critic" is purely in your mind and not at all supported by reality. If a knowledgeable game critic told me that Rift, Brink, Empire Earth 3, etc were the number 1 pc game of all time, then I would have reason to question their legitimacy.

dude, you got it the other way around.

I said the game is crap in the grand scheme of things, because when you put it along actually great rpgs like fallout, planescape, baldur's gate, bloodlines, deus ex, etc. etc. it just is. shallow character system, nonexistant combat mechanics, forgettable plot and characters, piss poor reactivity, mods have to fix half the game, etc. it's a fun and addictive and pretty game no denying that but really it's just a mediocre game when compared to the actually good ones.

and everyone hates metacritic, I dunno why you bring that up.

Most of GAF is just remembering their Console Skyrim Experience. Remember folks, this is an assessment of PC Skyrim. The problems with the console versions are well documented (and honestly anyone playing this masterful game on a lesser platform than the PC get what they deserve (Yeah I said it, Fuck consoles!!1 (Ok, maybe I went too far...)))).

Vanilla PC Skyrim is a solid game with some glaring balance and GUI issues.

Modded PC Skyrim is arguably the best RPG ever made. Not my personal #1 PC game, but top 5.

Must have mods:

• Requiem: Completely revamped mechanics, skills, perks, and removes level scaling. Game much more challenging and rewarding. Far better balance.
• SkyUI: A PC interface for a PC game. Not perfect but far better than vanilla GUI.
• ENB: Lots of variations but pretty much all of them make jaw-dropping improvements to the graphics, just watch the youtube videos.
• Climates of Tamriel: Adds fantastic weather effects and is a req for most ENB mods.
• SyrimHD: Final key piece of graphics mod. Essentially makes all textures higher res.

Finally not a mod but a simple skyrimpref.ini fix.....change the FOV from the ridiculous 65 to 85.

PS: Fuck Consolites and their consoles!

while I appreciate mods and think they should be counted as a positive to a game (they fix a ton of bad in my beloved new vegas) there are things like story and dialogue and quest design that simply can't be fixed by mods.

I can't find that image comparing the dialogue choices between a random npc in new vegas and a main character in skyrim's story but it was like 10 dialogue branches to 2 or something like that.

A lot of people seems to be very against this, I suppose it's because there are feeling involved. No offense but it's like the movies, no one have the answer for which one is the best, and maybe the criticism should be for trying to gave an answer.
At the end all reduces to the question:

Videogames are art? The question of the best game can't be solved because art is subjective by definition.
Videogames aren't art? We must see the parameters to see if what they say is true.

nope

Never understood why Pyro gets all the hate when post-spin buff Heavy is the real boring W+M1 class. At least Pyro has the airblast to make things more fun.

haven't played tf2 in a long time, pyro just what popped in my head as a w+m1 thingie

I was always really bad with the hard classes in tf2 anyways

 

[Onyar]

nope

Sorry, objective, objective, objective

 

[pablito]

I see it as a sign that the more popular a game is means the more chance those who dislike it get to speak out.

thank you. i've been thinking this for years and yet i always see people act as if people's dislike of something comes entirely from its popularity. no, they just have more opportunities to voice their opinion of something wouldn't have liked regardless.

 

[Odrion]

Sucks if you had to play it on a console.

A perfectly valid choice by PC gamer when you consider how incredible the PC version is with a bit of tweaking and mods.

Mostly true. But there's nothing you can do with mods that'll fix the poor combat. You can kinda improve it by making it more difficult, or just different by changing what mechanics are emphasized. But it'll always feel clumsy with no real satisfaction.

 

[GoddyofAus]

It's a good game, but fuck me. Number 1? Maybe after about 100 mods.

 

[coopolon]

Wait, Cory Banks is the managing editor of pc gamer? Isn't he the same guy from gamers with jobs who always trashed pc gaming in favor of macs and consoles? I haven't listened to the podcast in years, so I might be remembering that wrong.

 

[Almighty]

I give Bethesda credit for making a dynamic open world and a mod friendly game. Credit for the mods goes to the community. Credit for the modded game providing so much damn fun to so many goes to both Bethesda and the community, depending upon how much those mods added to or fixed the experience for each player.

But if we're talking PC Gamer and GAF I'd have to imagine the majority of us are playing Skyrim with mods. I just thought that was a given. I could be wrong though ;P

The point of the list isn't just to give the developer credit for the game, though. If the modding community made Skyrim into something much greater than what it originally was upon release, then that's a fair consideration when you're talking about the best PC games -- a platform that has long been reliant on communities to drive games with player-created content.

Skyrim is PC modding's poster-child from the perspective that almost no two people will use the same mods. There have been single, huge mods like Counter Strike and DOTA that have become games on their own; and there are games like Dark Souls that more or less require a single important mod to fix major problems in the game. But with TES games you still end up with the same underlying game, but with loads of tweaks that personalize the game and make it what you want.

Now Bethesda, we need to sit down and have a talk about that engine you're using...

As much as I agree that mods make Bethesda games much better. I guess I am just a purist then. As if I was to make a list like this it would be judged solely on what the developer put out. Sure Bethesda deserves some credit for making modding possible for their games, but as far as I can tell they more or less lucked into having such a large and talented modding community. Plenty of developers make equally mod friendly games and don't get anywhere near the community.

Seems like an unfair advantage to me. I guess at the end of the day to the player it doesn't matter, but I don't know. Letting a developer release an arguably very flawed game that the mod community has to make awesome and still calling it the best game ever doesn't sit right with me.

 

[Extra Sauce]

<--- Best PC game of all time.

 

[Moofers]

Game of the Forever

 

[TyphoonStruggle]

Starcraft, Diablo II, Half Life, Half Life 2, Warcraft 3, DOTA 2, World of Warcraft, Call of Duty (1?)

all of which are better (more influential?) games

 

[zkylon]

Sorry, objective, objective, objective

I disagree with the idea that art is subjective

there are both subjective and objective things that make something artful and game design can be appreciated both from a subjective (how it makes you feel) and objective (depth of mechanics and systems) angle.

I also find that saying that either everything or nothing is art (since art's subjective) is boring and pointless to argue for or against

 

[ari]

Mother of god, the game is good, but it's a terrible RPG. The best PC game of all time should be a classic like Baldur's Gate, Fallout, Monkey Island or Minecraft.

Why?

 

[doctorcdcs]

I like PC Gamer, but Skyrim is #1?


I'm shaking my head

 

[Frankenstrat]

 

[Canis lupus]

It's a good game, but fuck me. Number 1? Maybe after about 100 mods.

No amount of mod will fix the worst combat system.

 

[Vinci]

Just bought it recently and am playing it when and where I have time. It's good. Not something I'm going to revisit in the future, but it's been a solid time-waster.

 

[spirity]

As much as I agree that mods make Bethesda games much better. I guess I am just a purist then. As if I was to make a list like this it would be judged solely on what the developer put out. Sure Bethesda deserves some credit for making modding possible for their games, but as far as I can tell they more or less lucked into having such a large and talented modding community. Plenty of developers make equally mod friendly games and don't get anywhere near the community.

Seems like an unfair advantage to me. I guess at the end of the day to the player it doesn't matter, but I don't know. Letting a developer release an arguably very flawed game that the mod community has to make awesome and still calling it the best game ever doesn't sit right with me.

That wasn't luck. Bethesda's games please an awful lot of people. Skyrim sold, what was the last count? 12m copies? With such a huge fanbase, its no wonder there's so many great mods.

Bethesda did something right with Skyrim in order to get those sales, and in order to get such a huge community.

 

[Lordwindowlicker]

<--- Best PC game of all time.

It's one below Full Throttle, at least.

 

[Myriadis]

A crime to humanity, absolutely obscene and disgusting. Everyone who works there should be dragged out to the streets and shot in the head.

Spoiler

</drama queen>. But at least it's not Half Life 2.

 

[zkylon]

That wasn't luck. Bethesda's games please an awful lot of people. Skyrim sold, what was the last count? 12m copies? With such a huge fanbase, its no wonder there's so many great mods.

Bethesda did something right with Skyrim in order to get those sales, and in order to get such a huge community.

advertising?

 

[NullPointer]

advertising?

*shakes head*

There's a simpler explanation.

 

[SmartBase]

Only good thing about Skyrim is how easily you can find mods to make it into a decent game. Can't wait for next-gen Gamebryo jank.

Spoiler

Someone team up Bethesda's landscape artists and a real development team.

 

[N2NOther]

Phrases like "non-existant combat" are hyperbole at its worst and most reductive. Just because people don't like something doesn't mean it's without merit. Especially in a game like Skyrim in which millions of people enjoyed the shit out if it without mods. Like another poster said, the game received tons of praise for something. I know we all like to think we know better but when that many people like something it does have value. Whether you agree or not.

 

[walking fiend]

It's cool, the Internet and all that. When I say scope I mean the whole thing. The giant world, the many different quest lines, the entire game. Sure a lot of games do specific elements better but I'm genuinely curious as to what games are that ambitious that people think are better. Again, I'm not saying Skyrim is the best.

If you mean the quest lines, number of NPCs, uniquely written dialogues, etc., Skyrim is actually small to quite a number of other RPGs. If you read the link I posted, you can see that Torment's script has 800,000 words; that's probably more than all the games made by Bethesda combined.


---
But nonetheless, it is apparent that it is just one other list of major games; say in the last year, we had Primordia being released, which has one of the best writings of adventure games, which would translate into having one of the best writings for any game; so if they wanted to go for including more modern games, why not Primordia, why not any of the other excellent smaller games in recent years?

 

[zkylon]

*shakes head*

There's a simpler explanation.

nude mods?

 

[NullPointer]

nude mods?

Of course.

I guess that settles it.

 

[Jawmuncher]

Personally I just find it odd to say a game is the best of all time when its hasnt had time to really settle. Sure it's been 2 years but is argue even that's not enough time. One of the biggest things for me that make some of the best game the best is that they age really well.
Without mods how well is Skyrim going to age? Hell even oblivion already hasn't aged that well.

 

[N2NOther]

If you mean the quest lines, number of NPCs, uniquely written dialogues, etc., Skyrim is actually small to quite a number of other RPGs. If you read the link I posted, you can see that Torment's script has 800,000 words; that's probably more than all the games made by Bethesda combined.

I will have to read that later because I'm at work and I shouldn't even be posting this, but lines dialogue are one thing when a game like Skyrim is doing several. Don't get me wrong. The game has severe flaws, not the least of which is the extremely and shockingly limited amount of unique voice actors.

 

[Almighty]

That wasn't luck. Bethesda's games please an awful lot of people. Skyrim sold, what was the last count? 12m copies? With such a huge fanbase, its no wonder there's so many great mods.

Bethesda did something right with Skyrim in order to get those sales, and in order to get such a huge community.

The modding community has for the most part carried over all though their games since at least Morrowind. So yeah maybe you are right maybe it isn't luck, maybe sticking to the same engine for over a decade is the reason. People didn't have to relearn everything to make great mods. So bad choice of words.

Still saying Bethesda made the greatest game of all time after you heavily modify it doesn't sit well with me.

 

[Tiops]

lol

I couldn't play for more than 5 hours. And I really tried, but the gameplay just sucks. And I played the PC version.