Support NeoGAF

[wiggleb0t]

Can't stand the slow paced 'walk to random character a, b, c to hear irrelevant info' then progress.... Oh Character D has something useful to say, or a hint...

It's been long in the tooth for 15 years now and It's killing JRPG games for me.
It's not that I don't enjoy story/quirky interactions it's just that so much of it is just filler nonsense......

As for battle speed, it's usually not too much of a concern although long loading times can be a pain, esp lost odyssey prior to install to hdd was an option..... Every fight scene would be a 20-40 second cut scene/loading. Yawn zzzzzzz

 

[Kelegacy]

A good friend of mine mentioned that Morrowind ruined JRPGs for him. I never thought about it that way, but that's probably the case for me too. I'll still get into something like Y's Seven or Tactics Ogre, but mostly they've been replaced by WRPGs. I'm not sure the slow pacing of JRPGs is that significant of a reason why, though.

I almost said it was Baldur's Gate, but that's not true. I still played JRPGs afterwards. The first RPG of this generation for me was Oblivion on 360, so maybe you are onto something. It didn't set a new bar per se, but it made me want more games like it. Meanwhile, if I'm mashing buttons to have my characters in Lost Odyssey hurry up and attack while eating a sandwich or watching tv, that is a big failure for me. I want to be involved 100% of the time in a game. Sometime like Demon's Souls takes 120% though.

If JRPGs had some realtime battles, I'd be more apt to play them and stay hooked. I think my taste has moved to that realm, where I need more action. After 10 hours at work, I don't want to sit and stare at a screen while the game plays itself. Vesperia has realtime battles, but they aren't exactly what I'm talking about. Games like FFXII and Infinite Undiscovery are a bit closer to what I like now. But if a game has open, action packed fighting, is it still a JRPG?

Still, it's not just the battle system that grates on me. There is so much more wrong with the JRPG than just that IMO.

 

[2San]

FFX-2 showed turned based battles done right and pretty much spoiled me. It made me notice how slow traditional turn based battles really are. Turn based battles can be done right, but for some reason other devs seem to be adverse to implementing a high pace style.

 

[Durante]

I got sick of slow battle systems sometime during the PS2 era. i don't mind turn-based or intricate systems, what really gets on my nerves is when individual actions take a lot more time tan they should (due to slow animations, slow loading of a separate battle screen, or simply too many random battles while exploring). One of the worst offenders I can think of is Dragon Quest 8.

Luckily there are lots of JRPGs that don't suffer from these problems.

 

[Ourobolus]

Xenogears is a fantastic game, but if there's one thing that bothers me is the ridiculously slow text speed. It will drive you nuts, but damn if it isn't a great game otherwise.

 

[dramatis]

Growing up, at least in junior high and high school (the 90s), I loved JRPGs. My favorite genre hands down. I didn't get into them in the NES era, so I wound up cutting my teeth with stuff like FFIII (VI) and getting hooked. The SNES had some great RPGs, and then the PS1 came out and eventually picked up even more steam. While in college I got a PS2 and played the heck out of those JRPGs as well...

This is very nice and all, but what does it have to do with OP...?

If JRPGs had some realtime battles, I'd be more apt to play them and stay hooked. I think my taste has moved to that realm, where I need more action. After 10 hours at work, I don't want to sit and stare at a screen while the game plays itself. Vesperia has realtime battles, but they aren't exactly what I'm talking about. Games like FFXII and Infinite Undiscovery are a bit closer to what I like now. But if a game has open, action packed fighting, is it still a JRPG?

I would say what you're actually looking for is an action game that plays itself, or an action game in the field environment and not a separate combat area. If you're not looking for Vesperia-style combat, it suggests either you don't want to think about chaining attacks to do lengthy combos or you feel irked about having combat separate from the rest of the game.

JRPGs aren't all turn-based by default. Open action packed fighting doesn't mean a game isn't still a JRPG. If that's what you're looking for, your ideal JRPG (gameplay-wise) is...Kingdom Hearts...

I think if the system has some way to alternate between slow and fast portions, the game would feel less slow and better paced. I'm thinking specifically of the Valkyria Chronicles combat system though, where once you select a unit to act you have to act as fast and careful as you can, but it also provides a slower thought process on the overview map.

 

[Divvy]

You should get the PC version of The Last Remnant. It's awesome and it has a turbo button.

 

[Typographenia]

The first two Golden Suns are excellent (can't speak on the third, as I've yet to buy it).

I don't know if you have or haven't played it, but I also recommend Persona 4. It's trimmed off a lot of the things I hate in traditional JRPGs, and it has a much faster pace. It always feels like something is going on. I always hated how there only seemed to be one thing that actually mattered every three hours in the JRPGs I played.
Also, it has "Rush" mode when you go into combat that you activate by hitting triangle. It basically is a fast forward button, and it's fantastic.

 

[Wazzim]

Play Chrono Cross as last, you don't want to ruin the other games. (and to answer your question: I think you should skip BoF4 then)

 

[Herbspiceguy]

I initially wanted to post 'This is why Half Minute Hero 2 can't come soon enough'.
But having been off the radar for a while, I checked it's release date in it's wiki entry; 21 october in Europe, published by Rising Star.
Yet upon further research I find out this release date and supposed publisher isn't even true. It seems it's not getting an English release at all

 

[Curufinwe]

I don't know if you have or haven't played it, but I also recommend Persona 4. It's trimmed off a lot of the things I hate in traditional JRPGs, and it has a much faster pace. It always feels like something is going on. I always hated how there only seemed to be one thing that actually mattered every three hours in the JRPGs I played.
Also, it has "Rush" mode when you go into combat that you activate by hitting triangle. It basically is a fast forward button, and it's fantastic.

Rush is awesome, just be careful about using it on enemies who can cast Hama or Mudo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh8G2leCrG8

 

[djtiesto]

Growing up, at least in junior high and high school (the 90s), I loved JRPGs. My favorite genre hands down. I didn't get into them in the NES era, so I wound up cutting my teeth with stuff like FFIII (VI) and getting hooked. The SNES had some great RPGs, and then the PS1 came out and eventually picked up even more steam. While in college I got a PS2 and played the heck out of those JRPGs as well.

But...something changed. This generation we've seen a handful of JRPGs show up on the 360 and PS3 and yet, I haven't beaten a single one. I just wind up moving away and back to other games instead. Now, you could chalk that up to me being older, having a wife and kids and not having 40 hours or so to invest in a game. But I still game like crazy and Skyrim will be an easy 100 hours for me, even with two children ages 2 and 2 months.

No, what I think is different is that I've continued to grow, but JRPGs have stayed the same. I think it's even worse now in the age of voiced dialogue, since annoying characters seem even MORE annoying now. Their voices, they grate. The character designs and plotlines and almost everything is trite and recycled and boring. What I used to love about the genre is still there I think, but it's the same game I played a decade or two ago, with a new paint job. I'd like to see a bit more evolution with the genre.

I just don't have time to play games tha don't hook me the entire way through. When I was a kid, I could grind through random encounters because I had all the time in the world. Now, if a game starts throwing hours of boredom at me, it's failed. My time is just too precious.

Even Tales of Vesperia, which is viewed as one of the best JRPGs released in a while, still can't hook me like games used to. When I play it, or even Blue Dragon which I really liked, I am reminded of why I loved JRPGs for so many years, but they still wind up back on the shelf after a few hours. I still buy almost every JRPG that comes out on the 360 and PS3, but I'm more of a collector now.

Meanwhile, I've moved onto Western RPGs, which tend to allow much more freedom and keep me hooked like a crack addict. They also generally have much better stories and characters. I've always liked CRPGs but now they have become my favorite genre (western RPGs anyway). But I also now love open world games post GTAIII, so it's no surprise I like my RPGs to have a bit of freedom. JRPGs are almost always completely linear. I'd like to see that change a bit, but who knows if that will ever happen.

I swear to god, every single time. Is there a bot that writes these posts in every single RPG-related thread? All the cliches are here: I used to love JRPG in the SNES/PS1 era, tried playing Lost Odyssey/FF13/etc., then I played Oblivion/Mass Effect/etc. and now I love western RPGs. Throw in something about nonlinearity, voice acting, animu, and you have a typical post.

 

[Kinan]

I see Xenoblade in your backlog.

Play it. It will remove all your troubles.

This is truth. Xenoblade pacing is excellent, mostly because it under control of the player. You can either "rush" through the story or make a pause at any location, explore, do sidequests. When you are tire/bored, move with the story away.

Perfect solution, as long as story pacing doesn't suck and side activities are interesting.

 

[entremet]

I still love JRPGs, it's just that they don't really fit my lifestyle anymore. I'd rather do other things on my weekends than play a super long and involved JRPG. And I'm too tired to play them after work. I've still managed to complete a good amount of JRPGs this generation:

DS:
DQIVr
DQVr
EOII
TWENTY

PSP:
Valkyrie Profile: Lenneth

360:
Tales of Vesperia

PS3:
Final Fantasy XIII

 

[chaostrophy]

I love the game, but I'm a bit disappointed by all the slowness and loading in P2 Innocent Sin. You'd think they'd be able to speed the game up a bit given how much more powerful the PSP is than the PS1. Also all the SMT games on PS2 are nice and snappy.

 

[Aru]

The first two Golden Suns are excellent (can't speak on the third, as I've yet to buy it).

I don't know if you have or haven't played it, but I also recommend Persona 4. It's trimmed off a lot of the things I hate in traditional JRPGs, and it has a much faster pace. It always feels like something is going on. I always hated how there only seemed to be one thing that actually mattered every three hours in the JRPGs I played.
Also, it has "Rush" mode when you go into combat that you activate by hitting triangle. It basically is a fast forward button, and it's fantastic.

I'm waiting for the Vita version of P4. Rush mode was also in P3P, and it was a great feature.

 

[crazy monkey]

xenoblade is not slow paced. It is the most awesome thing. Play it. Love it.

 

[The Technomancer]

Radiant Historia is slow in battles? I thought they were incredibly speedy: most attacks are swift and there are no annoying delays between attacks and menu boxes and stuff

Growing up, at least in junior high and high school (the 90s), I loved JRPGs. My favorite genre hands down. I didn't get into them in the NES era, so I wound up cutting my teeth with stuff like FFIII (VI) and getting hooked. The SNES had some great RPGs, and then the PS1 came out and eventually picked up even more steam. While in college I got a PS2 and played the heck out of those JRPGs as well.

But...something changed. This generation we've seen a handful of JRPGs show up on the 360 and PS3 and yet, I haven't beaten a single one. I just wind up moving away and back to other games instead. Now, you could chalk that up to me being older, having a wife and kids and not having 40 hours or so to invest in a game. But I still game like crazy and Skyrim will be an easy 100 hours for me, even with two children ages 2 and 2 months.

No, what I think is different is that I've continued to grow, but JRPGs have stayed the same. I think it's even worse now in the age of voiced dialogue, since annoying characters seem even MORE annoying now. Their voices, they grate. The character designs and plotlines and almost everything is trite and recycled and boring. What I used to love about the genre is still there I think, but it's the same game I played a decade or two ago, with a new paint job. I'd like to see a bit more evolution with the genre.

I just don't have time to play games tha don't hook me the entire way through. When I was a kid, I could grind through random encounters because I had all the time in the world. Now, if a game starts throwing hours of boredom at me, it's failed. My time is just too precious.

Even Tales of Vesperia, which is viewed as one of the best JRPGs released in a while, still can't hook me like games used to. When I play it, or even Blue Dragon which I really liked, I am reminded of why I loved JRPGs for so many years, but they still wind up back on the shelf after a few hours. I still buy almost every JRPG that comes out on the 360 and PS3, but I'm more of a collector now.

Meanwhile, I've moved onto Western RPGs, which tend to allow much more freedom and keep me hooked like a crack addict. They also generally have much better stories and characters. I've always liked CRPGs but now they have become my favorite genre (western RPGs anyway). But I also now love open world games post GTAIII, so it's no surprise I like my RPGs to have a bit of freedom. JRPGs are almost always completely linear. I'd like to see that change a bit, but who knows if that will ever happen.

Sorry but...this comes off as completely not relevent to the topic at hand and an attempt to derail this thread into "WRPG vs JRPG"

 

[larvi]

Yeah, that was the first thing I looked for in the options DQMJ 2 is a way to turn of the animations, unfortunately there isn't one there. All JRPGs should take a clue from pokemon and include this imo. JRPGs are all about grinding but I want my grinding to go a fast as I can. I might want to see the animations for a few battles in the beginning but after that they definitely need to go. Lost Odyessey and Blue Dragon were bad this way as well, the same repeated attack animations and sound bytes gets very very old.

 

[mr. puppy]

fuck this game. i tried as hard as possible to get into it b/c of the hype it got from GAF, but it was fucking unbearably slow:

 

[verbatimo]

After playing Xenoblade, I want same kind to battle-system to future jrpgs. Only other series where turn based battle-system is fine IMO is Etrian Odyssey, because it is very fast.

I don't know if I can ever return, and try to finish FF IV and DQ9 DS, because of the slow battles.

 

[Aru]

fuck this game. i tried as hard as possible to get into it b/c of the hype it got from GAF, but it was fucking unbearably slow:

It's not really that slow. The slowest part is when you aim at an enemy. But you have to be very precise there.
VC is a 10/10 game for me.

 

[TheExodu5]

so let me see if i get this straight, you're playing shitty games and complaining they are shit? oh wow

Since when is Radiant Historia a shitty game?

Also, Xenoblade is definitely not slow.

 

[Macstorm]

I almost imagine that Japan has heard this complaint and instead of most developers trying to find a way to speed things up, they just opt to make an action RPG instead. Xenoblade does a great job of creating a fast-paced, non action RPG. Final Fantasy XII did the same before with its battle system (which I love), but it had other issues in pacing that slowed it down. Also, Xenoblade's save anywhere feature should be a standard, not an exception. Save points CAN be balanced well, but are rarely done so.

 

[7Th]

Generally speaking Dragon Quest games' battles are very fast (especially when you set the party to fight automatically...) but the 3D ones with the character animations are definitely a bit slower.

Fast-paced, genuinely fun Dragon Quest died with 8's fat, slow ass.

 

[TDLink]

Xenoblade isn't slow at all.

Chrono Cross is also fairly fast for a turn based game.

I recommend playing both ASAP.

 

[TeK-DeLorean]

I blame the internet for giving me ADHD.

this.

 

[djplaeskool]

Fast-paced, genuinely fun Dragon Quest died with 8's fat, slow ass.

Man, I loved DQ8.

Patience is a dying virtue I guess.

 

[Crazetex]

It is probably the biggest turn-off for me.

I don't mind turn-based battles, as long as the animations are fast. I count "ATB" battles in here as well - why are ten-second summon animations worthwhile? Seriously? Fuck you.

As for the removal of the turn-based to focus on action, I think that it is entirely possible to make that work. Look at the Bioware style of battles; is that anything if not turn-based? Mass Effect maybe less so, but still. The same goes for Final Fantasy XII. Yes, basic actions and gambits are automated, but you can still pause to pick your larger spells and abilities.

As much as I would like to get into "tactical"/strategy RPGs, I really can't stand how slow and convoluted so many of them are. Do I really care that my hit rate is 56.8%? Why punish the player with hit rates that low, when they only serve to make battles more plodding?

Radiant Historia is fast, interesting and has no accuracy rolls. You always hit, the focus is on linking attacks together to build chains. By removing the RNG, you get a faster battle system that is also more fun. (I'm not saying that accuracy as a stat needs to be removed from all RPGs, just using it as an example.)

I could go on and on, but I feel like I'm drifting more and more off-topic.

Patience is a dying virtue I guess.

I don't play $60 to practice patience.

 

[Durante]

The Last Remnant's PC version "turbo mode" is fantastic for this by the way. It's really fast and allows you to focus on the fun part, that is the strategic decision making in battle. It also helps that the PC version has almost 0 load times.

 

[djplaeskool]

I don't play $60 to practice patience.

To each his own, I suppose.
SRPGs are hands-down my favorite RPG sub-genre.
Oh the epic Fire Emblem, Shining Force, and FFT battles I've relished in...

 

[Kelegacy]

Seems a lot of people didn't like my post or took it the wrong way. I didn't mean anything by it other than giving a story of one JRPG fanatic's experience with the genre. The OP is about the slowness of JRPGs lately and I think its a constant instead of a recent issue with the genre. The lack of change is what is sapping my strength to be a fan. I wasn't looking to derail, but it sounds like it was taken that way. Sorry. I also didn't realize the JRPG debate stuff was a touchy subject around here.

 

[7Th]

To each his own, I suppose.
SRPGs are hands-down my favorite RPG sub-genre.
Oh the epic Fire Emblem, Shining Force, and FFT battles I've relished in...

Fire Emblem is an extremely fast-paced game, you know; it actually lets the player skip every single instance of animation.

 

[djplaeskool]

Fire Emblem is an extremely fast-paced game, you know; it actually lets the player skip every single instance of animation.

I don't mean in the context of animations, but in the gameplay itself.
I always take it nice and slow, to feel out the enemy to avoid unnecessary loss.
FE makes you pay for overly risky behavior.

 

[thefro]

I almost imagine that Japan has heard this complaint and instead of most developers trying to find a way to speed things up, they just opt to make an action RPG instead. Xenoblade does a great job of creating a fast-paced, non action RPG. Final Fantasy XII did the same before with its battle system (which I love), but it had other issues in pacing that slowed it down. Also, Xenoblade's save anywhere feature should be a standard, not an exception. Save points CAN be balanced well, but are rarely done so.

What's great about Xenoblade's system is it still feels strategic and like you have control of the critical things going on even though the AI controls the other 2 characters 95% of the time. They really did a great job.

 

[Paracelsus]

The Last Remnant's PC version "turbo mode" is fantastic for this by the way. It's really fast and allows you to focus on the fun part, that is the strategic decision making in battle. It also helps that the PC version has almost 0 load times.

Didn't they bloat enemies HP to make up for the improved speed though?

 

[chaosblade]

I thought the OP was talking about slower paced stories, topic title probably could have reflected that he meant combat.

I agree, there's really no excuse for games to have slow combat or long unskippable attacks at this point. Turn based combat can be quick, although based on your posts it seems like you don't really like that in general anymore.

Ys and Xenoblade are definitely games you should check out. In a lot of ways Chronicles is a remaster of the 80s games rather than a remake, i.e., the lack of an attack button. I'd say it's worth playing, I loved Ys II (even more than Ark, about on par with Seven), but if it doesn't click with you don't put off the whole series because of it, because Oath/Ark/Seven are all a lot more modern.

 

[7Th]

I don't mean in the context of animations, but in the gameplay itself.
I always take it nice and slow, to feel out the enemy to avoid unnecessary loss.
FE makes you pay for overly risky behavior.

I don't really consider tactical gameplay slow since you're interacting with the game in a meaningful way and, if you want to, you can always play the game faster if that's your style. Dragon Quest VIII, on the other hand, is slow because the animations are a drag compared to the animations in older DQ games; this goes for both combat and exploration.

 

[P90]

So the OP, and others in the thread, really dislike "slow paced" RPGs. Perhaps Dragon Age II would be more to their liking?

 

[Aeana]

Fast-paced, genuinely fun Dragon Quest died with 8's fat, slow ass.

And then revived right after when DQ4 DS came out?

DQ4/5/6 DS are the fastest DQ games ever made. Not just battle-wise, they also made the dungeons smaller, movement faster, everything is fast (too fast IMO in the case of 6, but that's another discussion).

 

[The English Conquistador]

This is one thing, pacing wise, that FFXIII gets absolutely right. The battles are super quick.

Battle pacing is the only good pacing FFXIII does. There's a reason why so many people never bothered finishing the game, it's one of the slowest games out there.

 

[birdchili]

I got sick of slow battle systems sometime during the PS2 era. i don't mind turn-based or intricate systems, what really gets on my nerves is when individual actions take a lot more time tan they should (due to slow animations, slow loading of a separate battle screen, or simply too many random battles while exploring). One of the worst offenders I can think of is Dragon Quest 8.

exactly this. i bought the one-handed ps1 controller and used it for every ps1/ps2 rpg that was reasonably do-able, simultaneously having a beverage or snacks, and generally playing in a very relaxed manner.

having a game that supports slow play is no excuse for having the player *wait* though. don't cut off my interactivity so i can watch an animation, or force a 5 second load/transition screen before every combat. the game should be *always* ready to take input from me... i don't want to feel like every attack is a non-interactive cut scene.

this has *nothing* to do with "actioney" rpg systems.

 

[7Th]

And then revived right after when DQ4 DS came out?

DQ4/5/6 DS are the fastest DQ games ever made. Not just battle-wise, they also made the dungeons smaller, movement faster, everything is fast (too fast IMO in the case of 6, but that's another discussion).

I loved the DS Dragon Quest games, I just don't count them as something "newer" than DQ8. I mean, both DQ9 and DQ10 are closer in speed to 8 than to the DS remakes.

 

[Aeana]

Some of you guys should try Glory of Heracles DS. Once you've played that, everything else seems lightning quick.

 

[RurouniZel]

I like slow-paced JRPGS. I dislike when they're overly long in the story department, sure, but otherwise I don't particularly care weather battles are slow or fast so long as leveling up results in a noticeable improvement in my characters.

 

[Takuan]

Not a fan of any RPGs that go overboard with the animations. Really long summons were cool in FFVII the first few times, but not so much afterward. I don't recall having a problem with DQ8's battle speed, but I did eventually lose interest for reasons I can't remember.

Kelegacy: For what it's worth, your post mirrors my feelings and experience with RPGs in general. My Western RPG completion rate is far higher than it is for JRPGS, which I typically start but never finish (every FF since 8, lol).

 

[Macstorm]

Some of you guys should try Glory of Heracles DS. Once you've played that, everything else seems lightning quick.

A more accurate statement has never been made.

 

[chickdigger802]

Don't play 3d ps1 jrpgs then. Most tend have have absurdly low fps during battle...

I still think Tales of games have some of the most enjoyable (a bit shallow though) jrpg combat around. Most games, a mob encounter can be done in 30secs, so it's not too slow.

 

[Jigsaw]

i remember lunar on psp being extremely slow,later in the game with the full party of 5 it takes around 2 minutes for 1 (!) turn,it takes so long that the psp thinks you are afk and enters power saving mode to disable the backlight because you didn't press any buttons for minutes

 

[discoalucard]

Chrono Cross had an item that lets you super speed up gameplay, but you only got it in New Game+. That should've been available from the beginning.

Still, the speed doesn't bug me if it's visually engaging. Losy Odyssey was slow, but there was enough going on with camera angles changes, the roadie run, etc. that I was OK with it. Same deal with Chrono Cross. Dragon Quest may have quicker battles, but considering most of it is just text, sound effects and minimal animation, they always felt slower to me even though they really aren't. DQIX was a good middle ground between speed and battle animations, better than DQVIII anyway.

So the OP, and others in the thread, really dislike "slow paced" RPGs. Perhaps Dragon Age II would be more to their liking?

Stealth troll?