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[Uncle Rupee]

Not really. Why do you think that's a stupid comparison to make? I'd personally compare Super FX games to SVP chips, but I don't find the comparison very stupid at all. They're both using math co-processors.

One requires a $150 add-on, the other does not. I guess this explains why you have no problem comparing the capabilities you get when using the Sega CD to SNES cartridges, too.
Again, here is a link showing what your precious Pier Solar sounds like without the enhancement cd. Nothing special.

 

[Krejlooc]

One requires a $150 add-on, the other does not. I guess this explains why you have no problem comparing the capabilities you get when using the Sega CD to SNES cartridges, too.

I'm comparing the capabilities of the YM2612 to that of the SPC700. You seem to want to make the argument about what can and doesn't count, when the entire topic is about the differences in capabilities of those two chips.

You also apparently missed my point about the cost. Whatever, unless you start debating the capabilities of these machines and not arguing about what "counts" to you, consider my side of the argument over.

 

[andymcc]

A shame too. Cybernator and Soul blazer don't get enough love

Lack of familiarity with these console's libraries is what ultimately makes these conversations so frustrating. Admittedly, most of the "best" games of the Genesis are the sort of unsung/not-so-popular titles whereas the "best" games on Super Nintendo were largely popular upon release. You often see comparisons of disposable games (why do people even give a shit about Mortal Kombat 1/bad licensed games/rushed arcade ports outside of nostalgia) and the aforementioned "marquee" titles. False equivalencies all around.

It also doesn't help with many of the popular retro gaming youtube channels/podcasts (AVGN, Retronauts) have a nearly history revisionist Super Nintendo bias and a demonstrable and obvious lack of knowledge/layman's understanding of the consoles.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

I'm comparing the capabilities of the YM2612 to that of the SPC700. You seem to want to make the argument about what can and doesn't count, when the entire topic is about the differences in capabilities of those two chips.

You also apparently missed my point about the cost. Whatever, unless you start debating the capabilities of these machines and not arguing about what "counts" to you, consider my side of the argument over.

Good, because you weren't making much sense. You have no trouble comparing SuperFX chip games to 32X games? And SegaCD enchanced soundtracks to cartidge-based ones? Oooook. Even if games like EWJ2 used the same technique, the fact that Pier Solar has the benefit of the storage space of a CD means any direct comparison to SNES can't be done fairly. I realize someone linked a video showing something similar on the SNES with a flash cart or USB or whatever but that obviously didn't have anywhere near the effort or time put into it as Pier Solar, nor is the SNES being enhanced by a CD add-on with additional processing power that the SegaCD provides to the Genesis, so again it's not really applicable.

Furthermore your cost comparison between SuperFX games and 32X games makes no sense when comparing the cost of playing one game versus another, since every 32X game requires the 32X to be played. Therefore you need to add the cost of the 32X to every 32X game to make one-to-one comparisons to SuperFX games which didn't require such an add-on.

 

[Pimpbaa]

So I'm like reading through the forum of Pier Solar and a post from the Co-Programmer, Project leader says:

"Road Rash works pretty much like Pier Solar, streaming audio to the PCM chip, this allows for much more music to be stored and smooth loops, as oposite of CD audio in which the loops are not smooth at all."

Streaming audio? The music isn't software mixed at all, well except when the stream is being mixed in with the sound effects. Also, Lunar 2 apparently also had streaming PCM like this game has (this game does it at a higher bitrate). This game is doing a lot of things nice in regards to sound mixing in conjunction with the sega cd, but it's still streamed music that was recorded.

 

[Armoured Priest]

Lack of familiarity with these console's libraries is what ultimately makes these conversations so frustrating. Admittedly, most of the "best" games of the Genesis are the sort of unsung/not-so-popular titles whereas the "best" games on Super Nintendo were largely popular upon release. You often see comparisons of disposable games (why do people even give a shit about Mortal Kombat 1/bad licensed games/rushed arcade ports outside of nostalgia) and the aforementioned "marquee" titles. False equivalencies all around.

It also doesn't help with many of the popular retro gaming youtube channels/podcasts (AVGN, Retronauts) have a nearly history revisionist Super Nintendo bias and a demonstrable and obvious lack of knowledge/layman's understanding of the consoles.

I Guess, but some of those Nintendo "best" games really didn't even do that well when they were originally released. FF 3, Chrono Trigger, and Earthbound all sold out their print runs, sure...but did they do so well to warrant more then maybe one reprinting? I think FF3 did decent numbers...for a 16-bit RPG (there was a TV commercial in heavy rotation for that game, I recall Chrono Trigger having a commercial, but I don't think it played as often...then again, Secret of Evermore had a TV commercial. Square was pretty good about that back in the day). Still, what did they do for numbers 100-200K maybe...if that?

i think you're right...a lot of the current ridiculousness for many (not all) people is the revisionism you're seeing from youtube game reviewers, and misconceptions from playing games on emulators.

 

[Krejlooc]

So I'm like reading through the forum of Pier Solar and a post from the Co-Programmer, Project leader says:

"Road Rash works pretty much like Pier Solar, streaming audio to the PCM chip, this allows for much more music to be stored and smooth loops, as oposite of CD audio in which the loops are not smooth at all."

Streaming audio? The music isn't software mixed at all, well except when the stream is being mixed in with the sound effects. Also, Lunar 2 apparently also had streaming PCM like this game has (this game does it at a higher bitrate). This game is doing a lot of things nice in regards to sound mixing in conjunction with the sega cd, but it's still streamed music that was recorded.

This has been explained in detail in this very thread.

For a rundown:

The data streamed from the Sega CD is streaming PCM audio, which is mixed with FM audio and other software PCM sound channels to produce Pier Solar's music through the YM2612. It is the YM2612 producing the audio, not the Sega CD's Ricoh audio chip. Streaming PCM is not the same as Redbook audio.

And, while Lunar and Sonic CD and several Sega CD games used streaming PCM as well, they played through the Ricoh audio chip, not the Genesis' YM2612.

 

[Pimpbaa]

This has been explained in detail in this very thread.

So why are you using it as an example of genesis audio? You can't compare pre-recorded audio on a system that has access to a CD to a system that has to do it's music realtime like the SNES. That would be like comparing the pre-rendered 3d background of Silpheed on Sega CD (or ANY of the games that do this) to SNES and saying it does better 3D graphics than the SNES. And it doesn't matter where the game is spitting out it's pre-recorded audio, it's still fucking pre-recorded audio. Like it's been said already, it's apples and oranges.

 

[Krejlooc]

So why are you using it as an example of genesis audio? You can't compare pre-recorded audio on a system that has access to a CD to a system that has to do it's music realtime like the SNES. That would be like comparing the pre-rendered 3d background of Silpheed on Sega CD (or ANY of the games that do this) to SNES and saying it does better 3D graphics than the SNES.

Because the SNES uses sampled-based PCM playback as well.

I absolutely can compare the PCM playback of one system to the PCM playback of another. Especially when discussions about the ability to play PCM arose in this, and the other Genesis sound topics.

your above quote makes it sound like you are unaware that the SNES can't generate sound beyond white noise.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

So why are you using it as an example of genesis audio? You can't compare pre-recorded audio on a system that has access to a CD to a system that has to do it's music realtime like the SNES. That would be like comparing the pre-rendered 3d background of Silpheed on Sega CD (or ANY of the games that do this) to SNES and saying it does better 3D graphics than the SNES.

No, because technically Pier Solar is doing everything through the same channels as a cartridge just with a huge storage capacity (at least, that is what is claimed). However, that extra storage capacity kind of makes the comparison silly.

 

[andymcc]

your above quote makes it sound like you are unaware that the SNES can't generate sound beyond white noise.

you mean the Super Nintendos don't actually have magic talismans on the inside that summon voices generated by David Wise every time I drip into the atmospheric, soulful world of Donkey Kong Country 2?

 

[Krejlooc]

you mean the Super Nintendos don't actually have magic talismans on the inside that summon voices generated by David Wise every time I drip into the atmospheric, soulful world of Donkey Kong Country 2?

Actually, Nintendo just packed samples for every sound on earth, both retroactively and proactively, into that Sony chip. Hence the SNES could play any sound, ever. And even pitch shift it!

 

[Pimpbaa]

Because the SNES uses sampled-based PCM playback as well.

I absolutely can compare the PCM playback of one system to the PCM playback of another. Especially when discussions about the ability to play PCM arose in this, and the other Genesis sound topics.

your above quote makes it sound like you are unaware that the SNES can't generate sound beyond white noise.

The music in this game isn't sample based playback. There aren't instrument samples stored and then played in realtime. The music is pre-recorded and free from any limitations that the system has. They could have a million channels of audio or just one, real instruments being played and recorded or someone with a cheap synthesiser. It doesn't matter because it's just pre-recorded audio.

 

[Synth]

No, because technically Pier Solar is doing everything through the same channels as a cartridge just with a huge storage capacity (at least, that is what is claimed). However, that extra storage capacity kind of makes the comparison silly.

Whilst I don't really agree with the Super FX vs 32X thing (at some point you can argue that it starts to become a different console), I don't think the Pier Solar example is silly at all. Larger storage is something that both consoles has with select carts, and isn't something that is actually changing the capabilities of the audio hardware itself. If you had a game that decided "fuck it, we'll just have one music track" then the Genesis can output the sound at that quality even without the Sega CD.

If we're simply arguing the sound of each consoles game library, then that's completely subjective, and each has its own strengths and weaknesses. If the topic is which of the two simply had better audio hardware, then that Pier Solar example is making a very strong case for the Genesis. After all, it is capable of producing that sound whilst playing a game, without any additional hardware.. whilst the closest example I've seen for the SNES (the orchestral demo) simply isn't possible in any real scenario for the console.

The music in this game isn't sample based playback. There aren't instrument samples stored and then played in realtime. The music is pre-recorded and free from any limitations that the system has. They could have a million channels of audio or just one, real instruments being played and recorded or someone with a cheap synthesiser. It doesn't matter because it's just pre-recorded audio.

But samples are simply pre-recorded audio though. The only reason the SNES needs to mix them is to save on memory via reuse. It's really all the same thing.

 

[Krejlooc]

The music in this game isn't sample based playback. There aren't instrument samples stored and then played in realtime. The music is pre-recorded and free from any limitations that the system has. They could have a million channels of audio or just one, real instruments being played and recorded or someone with a cheap synthesiser. It doesn't matter because it's just pre-recorded audio.

You are aware that there is real time FM synthesis going on in the above tracks as well, right?

The PCM is one sample, but it's not the entirety of the song.

furthermore the question about the Genesis ability to play clear PCM was raised in these sound topics, where the ability of the SNES to play "clear" PCM was touted as an advantage. The Genesis could play much clearer PCM during actual gameplay.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

whilst the closest example I've seen for the SNES (the orchestral demo) simply isn't possible in any real scenario for the console.

Exactly. So since we don't have any real world examples other than Pier Solar, which is a special case by anyone's estimation, why use it as your barometer in the first place? You should only compare like with like, and that means cartridge based games against cartridge based games of similar storage capacity, and for all intents and purposes that means games that were contemporary to one another that reflect the kind of audio one experiences on either console. You don't go grabbing special cases that require a peripheral (to which there is no comparison on the SNES) to say Genesis is better.

 

[Pimpbaa]

You are aware that there is real time FM synthesis going on in the above tracks as well, right?

The PCM is one sample, but it's not the entirety of the song.

furthermore the question about the Genesis ability to play clear PCM was raised in these sound topics, where the ability of the SNES to play "clear" PCM was touted as an advantage. The Genesis could play much clearer PCM during actual gameplay.

They don't mention that on their page or forums and it seems kind of silly to do that when you can any real instrument you want when it comes to pre recorded sound. If it's there, then fm must be a very minor part of the composition because it's just too high fidelity. I'll have to give it a closer listen.

 

[Synth]

Exactly. So since we don't have any real world examples other than Pier Solar, which is a special case by anyone's estimation, why use it as your barometer in the first place? You should only compare like with like, and that means cartridge based games against cartridge based games of similar storage capacity, and for all intents and purposes that means games that were contemporary to one another that reflect the kind of audio one experiences on either console. You don't go grabbing special cases that require a peripheral (to which there is no comparison on the SNES) to say Genesis is better.

The difference is that Pier Solar is demonstrating that the Genesis CAN produce this sound whilst running a game, whilst nothing exists (that I'm aware of) to make the same claim for SNES. Storage space isn't a spec change. This would work with a cartridge, there would simply be less of it.

 

[Pimpbaa]

But samples are simply pre-recorded audio though. The only reason the SNES needs to mix them is to save on memory via reuse. It's really all the same thing.

It's not the same thing. When you are doing it real time on the SNES, you are limited by the hardware. You can only play so many samples at the same time (only 8). And cartridge sizes limit how big those samples can be. Pre-recorded audio has no limitations other than what the composer is using to make the music whether it be a real orchestra or a synthesiser.

 

[Synth]

It's not the same thing. When you are doing it real time on the SNES, you are limited by the hardware. You can only play so many samples at the same time (only 8). And cartridge sizes limit how big those samples can be. Pre-recorded audio has no limitations other than what the composer is using to make the music whether it be a real orchestra or a synthesiser.

Each sample isn't a single instrument. They could be playing clips from 8 different Top 40 hits at the same time if they wanted to (not at CD quality obviously.. but you get the point). Samples are pre-recorded audio. The SNES isn't generating its sounds dynamically in the way the Genesis FM synth does.

 

[Pimpbaa]

Each sample isn't a single instrument. They could be playing clips from 8 different Top 40 hits at the same time if they wanted to (not at CD quality obviously.. but you get the point). Samples are pre-recorded audio. The SNES isn't generating its sounds dynamically in the way the Genesis FM synth does.

Each sample WERE a single instrument. It works the same as a wavetable synthesis sound card on a pc. The difference being that such sound cards on PC had all the instrument samples stored in the sound card itself. Perhaps a more direct comparison would be the Amiga mod format where the sound file contained all the instrument samples (except that the Amiga could only play 4 sounds at a time). You could have longer sound samples than just a an instrument in this format, but it lead to very large file sizes (and ended up sounded like very poor quality mp3s). SNES did not have the luxury of a lot of space to work with on the cartridge, so sample sizes were very small and short.

edit: Not a lot of space on the cartridge and not a lot of ram either. The sound chip only had access to 64 kilobytes of data, those sound samples had to be incredibly small.

 

[Krejlooc]

Each sample WERE a single instrument. It works the same as a wavetable synthesis sound card on a pc. The difference being that such sound cards on PC had all the instrument samples stored in the sound card itself. Perhaps a more direct comparison would be the Amiga mod format where the sound file contained all the instrument samples (except that the Amiga could only play 4 sounds at a time). You could have longer sound samples than just a an instrument in this format, but it lead to very large file sizes (and ended up sounded like very poor quality mp3s). SNES did not have the luxury of a lot of space to work with on the cartridge, so sample sizes were very small and short.

There are SNES games which stored long, recorded samples that spanned entire songs, like Tales of Phantasia, or huge amounts of voice acting, like star ocean. Some games even had decompression chips in the cart to keep the size of these samples down so they could cram as much in as possible.

These games have been brought up in both topics as examples of advanced SNES audio.

example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3SA9LuqQgA

 

[Synth]

Each sample WERE a single instrument. It works the same as a wavetable synthesis sound card on a pc. The difference being that such sound cards on PC had all the instrument samples stored in the sound card itself. Perhaps a more direct comparison would be the Amiga mod format where the sound file contained all the instrument samples (except that the Amiga could only play 4 sounds at a time). You could have longer sound samples than just a an instrument in this format, but it lead to very large file sizes (and ended up sounded like very poor quality mp3s). SNES did not have the luxury of a lot of space to work with on the cartridge, so sample sizes were very small and short.

You're confusing what a sample is, with what it was generally used for. Yes memory constraints meant that they were generally used to simply store the sound of an instrument (or a vocal clip), but that doesn't change the fact that these sounds were still just pre-recorded audio, and you could have pre-recorded essentially any sound in its place.

Based off what you're claiming, this demo here couldn't possibly be legit as that's sure as hell not only 8 instruments. Once again samples are pre-recorded audio.. that's by definition. The only difference is that the SNES was limited in length and quality, but that didn't mean that each sample could only contain the sound of a single instrument.

EDIT: Or what Krejlooc said/shows above.

 

[bishopcruz]

Oh lord, the thread is back. And once again, we get the blanket denials. Sigh.

Lack of familiarity with these console's libraries is what ultimately makes these conversations so frustrating. Admittedly, most of the "best" games of the Genesis are the sort of unsung/not-so-popular titles whereas the "best" games on Super Nintendo were largely popular upon release. You often see comparisons of disposable games (why do people even give a shit about Mortal Kombat 1/bad licensed games/rushed arcade ports outside of nostalgia) and the aforementioned "marquee" titles. False equivalencies all around.

It also doesn't help with many of the popular retro gaming youtube channels/podcasts (AVGN, Retronauts) have a nearly history revisionist Super Nintendo bias and a demonstrable and obvious lack of knowledge/layman's understanding of the consoles.

Very true. Fact is the best Genesis soundtracks were done by Japanese studios that actually knew how to do FM synth well. A ton of the third parties on Genesis were current and former PC development houses. Companies like Telenet, Game Arts, and Compile had been working on FM synth for years, as FM had been standard on the PC-88/98, FM-Towns, and X68000 for years. It's why Koshiro's Genesis work generally kills his SNES stuff (as good as Actraiser's OST is), because he is one of the greatest programmers and composers of FM sound.

And again, some may prefer the SNES sound, I get that, I do too in some games, but to say that no Genesis game can come close in depth of composition? That's just nuts.

Yuzo's stuff is rarely simple just listen to everything happening in that track.

Other stuff, that is generally unknown outside of genesis die hards:

Warsong:
Gley Lancer
Phantasy Star II never gets enough love
Alisia Dragoon
Ecco 2

 

[IrishNinja]

(sup bish)

Furthermore your cost comparison between SuperFX games and 32X games makes no sense when comparing the cost of playing one game versus another, since every 32X game requires the 32X to be played. Therefore you need to add the cost of the 32X to every 32X game to make one-to-one comparisons to SuperFX games which didn't require such an add-on.

when did cost have anything to do with a thread about sound? if you're gonna buck the 32x, point at its sound chip or something.

No, because technically Pier Solar is doing everything through the same channels as a cartridge just with a huge storage capacity (at least, that is what is claimed). However, that extra storage capacity kind of makes the comparison silly.

okay Rupee, i've seen you in other threads & believe you to be a rational person. your claim was that the genesis had nothing on part with the SNES OST's you pointed at, and you've yet to reply to armour's counter:

That having been said Uncle Rupee asked what games compare in depth and instrumentation. He even dismisses Streets of Rage out of hand (which is hilarious...most SNES fanboys usually acknowledge those games at least) but we'll humor him here.

I'm not going to post examples because I'm considering full soundtracks. Youtube has all of what you need for the most part.

For Castlevania IV, I'd compare it to Shinobi III. While a number of differences both soundtracks have a measure of jazz overtones infused into them. CV4 is a more ambient combo jazz, whereas Shinobi III is more fusion. I'm more apologetic for CV 4 in general (I think its a perfectly fine game), and I really do like its OST (its one of my favorites, I think Konami outdid themselves on that one)...still I think Shinobi III compares favorably to it.

I'll skip Mega Man X because A) I'm not that familiar with the game or its soundtrack and B) I assume its uptempo rock which is something the Genesis is generally felt to excel at. i could be mistaken, but again A)...

Final Fantasy 3...Its a great OST, nobody reasonable says otherwise. Still, I'd actually put Shining Force II against it. Where FF 3 is mostly orchestral (Yes, there's some diversity in styles there for thematic purposes), Shining Force II is more like a military wind band (flutes and very heavy brass). Generally fitting the overall genre of a Strategy RPG and the semi-militaristic trappings of your group. That isn't to say there isn't diversity in the settings. There are various themes befitting locations both in and out of battle. FF3 is a bit more expansive, but SF II is definitely more kinetic (you spend longer "in battle.") I'll grant you I'd prefer FF3 in this case (personal preference), but I feel SF II compares favorably.

Chrono Trigger - Again I'll grant you its a great soundtrack...but so is Phantasy Star IV's soundtrack. In context of the game, the use of the more synthy elements works due to the sci-fi nature of the game. Still, its an RPG and in context there need to be tracks to represent towns, dungeons, battles, narration, ect. PS IV delivers with a memorable soundtrack.

Secret of Mana. this one is interetsing. The composer on this one did legwork that most of the others on the SNES didn't do and tried to tweak the drivers and change up the samples, so there were some unique sounds in this game. Against that I'd put Sword of Vermillion. Many people deride the game (I'm not one of them I've replayed this game multiple times)...but nobody derides the soundtrack. From the opening theme with its orchestra hits (why do people forget the base Genesis can do PCM playback on channel 6?), to the destruction of Excalibria, to the Death of Blade, the exploration of the lands, battling the monsters, to the Last City, to the confrontation with king Tsarkon and the closing credits. This OST is a true masterpiece.

For Actraiser...one Koshiro OST deserves another...Revenge of Shinobi (see, no Streets of Rage ). With Actraiser Koshiro makes a decent stab at orchestral works (he has admitted that he wasn't very versed in orchestarl music at the time...that having been said, I'd say he did a decent job with it.) I feel Revenge is a better, more diverse soundtrack with tracks leaning from dance, to rock, to jazz, and even a bit of atonal (final labyrinth level).

Finally, I'll have to abstain from Tales of Phantasia...I'm honestly not familiar with that soundtrack either...though again, its very annoying that people forget that channel 6 can double as a PCM channel. Its technically possible to have a music track that has vocals and utilizing the other channels as their respective FM or PSG. no one ever bothered to do it, because such a thing was way easier on Sega CD.

this was actually pretty well thought out (Vermillion was an interesting choice, as despite being a Suzuki joint it's an early JPRG often overlooked despite its soundtrack), and if your stance truly is "I cannot be convinced otherwise" than i apologize for wasting both of our times with actual discussion here, but if you genuinely wanted to see soundtracks on par with the more well-known/celebrated ones you chose, this is a really great post and shouldn't be dismissed.

A shame too. Cybernator and Soul blazer don't get enough love

agreed on both, Cybernator is on my list (Smash TV, Rock n' Roll Racing, Run Saber etc) of SNES looseys id love to find one day at a garage sale before resellers descend, but alas

 

[Krejlooc]

Oh lord, the thread is back. And once again, we get the blanket denials. Sigh.



Very true. Fact is the best Genesis soundtracks were done by Japanese studios that actually knew how to do FM synth well. A ton of the third parties on Genesis were current and former PC development houses. Companies like Telenet, Game Arts, and Compile had been working on FM synth for years, as FM had been standard on the PC-88/98, FM-Towns, and X68000 for years. It's why Koshiro's Genesis work generally kills his SNES stuff (as good as Actraiser's OST is), because he is one of the greatest programmers and composers of FM sound.

And again, some may prefer the SNES sound, I get that, I do too in some games, but to say that no Genesis game can come close in depth of composition? That's just nuts.

Yuzo's stuff is rarely simple just listen to everything happening in that track.

Other stuff, that is generally unknown outside of genesis die hards:

Warsong:
Gley Lancer
Phantasy Star II never gets enough love
Alisia Dragoon
Ecco 2

you can also do some crazy shit with the Genesis YM2612. As pointed out by Gecko Yamori yesterday, Toy Story for the Genesis runs a software-mixed 4 channel MOD tracker through its PCM channel.

 

[Pimpbaa]

There are SNES games which stored long, recorded samples that spanned entire songs, like Tales of Phantasia, or huge amounts of voice acting, like star ocean. Some games even had decompression chips in the cart to keep the size of these samples down so they could cram as much in as possible.

These games have been brought up in both topics as examples of advanced SNES audio.

example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3SA9LuqQgA

They were far from the normal however. For most games it WAS single instrument samples. And there was a huge cost, as you example showed (very low quality sound for the vocals of that music). It's just the norm for instrument sample based music (be it snes' spc format, amiga's mod format, or general midi) before the advent of fully streaming high quality music in every game.

edit: btw, I'm not saying that Genesis music cannot be as good or better in fact I prefer the Genesis sound in some ways. I just don't like to see some apples to oranges comparisons. And Synth even proves the the SNES can stream high quality music too.

 

[Krejlooc]

They were far from the normal however. For most games it WAS a single instrument samples. And there was a huge cost, as you example showed (very low quality sound for the vocals of that music). It's just the norm for instrument sample based music (be it snes' spc format, amiga's mod format, or general midi) before the advent of fully streaming high quality music in every game.

Nobody is claiming about what is the norm. This is a topic about the capabilities of these sound chips. It doesn't matter if something was rarely done, the point is it can be done. If you want to get nitty gritty and compare these soundchips, it should be noted just what they are capable of, not what joe schmoe did with it. Why try to squash discussion on just what these chips were capable of when pushed to their limits? It's valid and much more interesting than people just posting their favorite tracks.

EDIT: To explain my mindset, I'm a life long tinkerer and programmer, not much of an ear for composition. When I look at music discussions like this, I'm looking for a technical breakdown of the capabilities of these chips. I don't accept that something "sucks" just because it's hard to use. I like seeing what hardware can do, it's what I get out of this.

 

[Synth]

They were far from the normal however. For most games it WAS a single instrument samples. And there was a huge cost, as you example showed (very low quality sound for the vocals of that music). It's just the norm for instrument sample based music (be it snes' spc format, amiga's mod format, or general midi) before the advent of fully streaming high quality music in every game.

I think "it wasn't common" is a strange argument to make when discussing hardware capabilities. It either can do something, or it can't... and as you can see the SNES sampler can play back pre-recorded audio (and every game using vocals is doing this). It not being very good at it once things become more complicated doesn't mean it should be eliminated from discussion. The point here is that the Genesis audio configuration demonstrably can output sound comparable to the best the SNES can offer. The same can't be said of the reverse, because the SNES lacks the Genesis' ability to generate lossless audio via a synth.

 

[MrCunningham]

Whilst I don't really agree with the Super FX vs 32X thing (at some point you can argue that it starts to become a different console), I don't think the Pier Solar example is silly at all. Larger storage is something that both consoles has with select carts, and isn't something that is actually changing the capabilities of the audio hardware itself. If you had a game that decided "fuck it, we'll just have one music track" then the Genesis can output the sound at that quality even without the Sega CD.

If we're simply arguing the sound of each consoles game library, then that's completely subjective, and each has its own strengths and weaknesses. If the topic is which of the two simply had better audio hardware, then that Pier Solar example is making a very strong case for the Genesis. After all, it is capable of producing that sound whilst playing a game, without any additional hardware.. whilst the closest example I've seen for the SNES (the orchestral demo) simply isn't possible in any real scenario for the console.



But samples are simply pre-recorded audio though. The only reason the SNES needs to mix them is to save on memory via reuse. It's really all the same thing.

I agree with this the Sega CD isn't using any additional sound hardware for the Pier Solar example, it is just being used as a mass storage device for sound samples. You could think of it like a really big cartridge. It is being used as an example of what the FM chip in the Genesis/ Mega Drive could do if there were no cartridge size limitations, and it is a pretty nice showcase if nothing else.

But as it also has been shown, the Super Nintendo can do similar tricks if it isn't being held back by storage limitations. Though I would image that the SNES chip would have a few advantages in some ways, like the way it does stereo panning for example. It is a newer chip, after all.

Also, on the topic of playing PCM through the Genesis, this is an older video from Joe at GameSack showing of sound streaming through the Genesis using the ever drive and some waveplay engine mod: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKsUAywSyEg

Pretty neat stuff.

 

[muno]

From what I know, the Genesis had TWO sound chips.

One for the main audio processor (Six-channel Yamaha synth chip) and one for backwards compatibility (Four-channel PSG). The most talented composers found ways to take advantage of both chips to produce a more full sound with more instruments at once.

 

[ZealousD]

Exactly. So since we don't have any real world examples other than Pier Solar, which is a special case by anyone's estimation, why use it as your barometer in the first place? You should only compare like with like, and that means cartridge based games against cartridge based games of similar storage capacity, and for all intents and purposes that means games that were contemporary to one another that reflect the kind of audio one experiences on either console. You don't go grabbing special cases that require a peripheral (to which there is no comparison on the SNES) to say Genesis is better.

I think it's funny how people on the SNES side of the argument always insist that the Sega CD or 32x somehow don't count because they cost extra or something like that. Meanwhile, they pay out the nose for an Earthbound cartridge.

The Sega CD and 32x are absolutely a part of the Sega Genesis and waving your hands and pretending like they don't count strikes me more of trying to win arguments based on technicalities and semantics rather than actually evaluating the relative strengths and weaknesses of the respective hardwares. There is no like-for-like between the SNES and the Genesis, so you're not going to get the comparison you want. The sound hardware between both systems are fundamentally different in their approach. So stop pissing and moaning about how the comparison isn't "fair" since it will never be "fair".

 

[Pimpbaa]

I think "it wasn't common" is a strange argument to make when discussing hardware capabilities. It either can do something, or it can't... and as you can see the SNES sampler can play back pre-recorded audio (and every game using vocals is doing this). It not being very good at it once things become more complicated doesn't mean it should be eliminated from discussion. The point here is that the Genesis audio configuration demonstrably can output sound comparable to the best the SNES can offer. The same can't be said of the reverse, because the SNES lacks the Genesis' ability to generate lossless audio via a synth.

You said each sample wasn't a single instrument but they generally were and that music wasn't generated dynamically but it generally was (music played in realtime and not pre-recorded). As for the SNES what it could actually do if space weren't limited or through compression techniques, it has been shown in this thread that it obviously isn't limited to simple sound samples and I was wrong in that regard.

 

[Synth]

You said each sample wasn't a single instrument but they generally were and that music wasn't generated dynamically but it generally was (music played in realtime and not pre-recorded). As for the SNES what it could actually do if space weren't limited or through compression techniques, it has been shown in this thread that it obviously isn't limited to simple sound samples and I was wrong in that regard.

Ok, you KNOW what I meant by dynamically generating the sounds. I'm saying that the Genesis synth creates sounds from scratch. It isn't simply playing back sounds that it's been given ahead of time, it's creating the waves for itself. It's basically making its own samples.

Again, I really don't care what the common use for the SNES sampler was, that doesn't change what it is. And what it is, has been demonstrated numerous times already in this thread. If I load up FL Studio, add two sampler channels, and then load in a kick-drum sample into one, and a full dubstep loop into another, I haven't changed what the first sampler is, simply because I passed it a simpler sound to play back. All samples are pre-recorded audio, and the SNES is basically just starting and stopping them at different pitches. It's essentially just a very talented DJ.

Not to mention that in many cases I'd choose to layer multiple complementing sounds (like a snare and clap) together into one channel in order to produce a fuller sound. Meanwhile, you'd hear it played back through the console and would likely claim to me on here that it housed a "single instrument". Unless you know exactly how each sound in each SNES track got there, you can't go around claiming that they're made up of only 8 individual instruments. You just... can't.

Basically, you're adding unnecessary rules to determine what counts as a valid audio source. Playing back eight short samples repeatedly isn't any more valid than playing back one long one less frequently. If it actually was a less impressive technical feat to simply play shit back at CD quality, then that's what everyone would gone with (and eventually did when the hardware allowed). Your argument is pretty much the audio equivalent of "throws are cheap". Besides as Krejlooc already explained to you, it's not like the Genesis simply hit play, then sat back and did nothing, David Guetta style...

The data streamed from the Sega CD is streaming PCM audio, which is mixed with FM audio and other software PCM sound channels to produce Pier Solar's music through the YM2612. It is the YM2612 producing the audio, not the Sega CD's Ricoh audio chip. Streaming PCM is not the same as Redbook audio.

So, considering it uses the Genesis FM synth alongside other samples, it could easily be argued that this example is more "realtime" than anything the SNES has ever put out in its life.

 

[ShowDog]

I can't wait for our 2016 PSX vs N64 thread where we talk about how the N64 was better suited for FMVs, music and games with pre-rendered backgrounds based upon a homebrew N64 game that will be released between now and then on specialized 64DD discs using techniques never before utilized by developers.

It'll be especially great for all of us Nintendo fanboys *rolleyes* who recognize and appreciate Pier Solar as a really fucking cool accomplishment (probably the most exciting retro project I've ever seen) but don't really find it to be a 1:1 comparison to Snes or Genesis games released 20 years ago on standard hardware.

This is a shit post but it's frustrating to see a few people holding up something that

1) Was never accomplished by licensed software (large scale PCM streaming on Genesis) (Genesis software using optional CD storage)
2) Happened 20 years after the console was released

to try to change the narrative of 16-bit history.

I learned a lot in the last page or two and am frankly amazed that the Genesis chip is playing back that Pier Solar sound through its own hardware. It's leagues clearer than any SNES game I've ever heard, obviously. But that didn't do any good when storage limitations made that playback all but impossible. Yes, there were games that streamed large amounts of PCM, and those were Sega CD games that ran on Sega CD hardware. Not Genesis. It didn't do the Genesis any good when it was actually a supported system, running supported software. NOTHING released during the 16-bit era on Genesis hardware sounds anything like Pier Solar.

 

[IrishNinja]

to try to change the narrative of 16-bit history.

if you went back more than a page or two, you'd rest easy knowing that narrative you're after is very safe & no amount of discussion & YT music links can damage it.

 

[Pimpbaa]

Ok, you KNOW what I meant by dynamically generating the sounds. I'm saying that the Genesis synth creates sounds from scratch. It isn't simply playing back sounds that it's been given ahead of time, it's creating the waves for itself. It's basically making its own samples.

Again, I really don't care what the common use for the SNES sampler was, that doesn't change what it is. And what it is, has been demonstrated numerous times already in this thread. If I load up FL Studio, add two sampler channels, and then load in a kick-drum sample into one, and a full dubstep loop into another, I haven't changed what the first sampler is, simply because I passed it a simpler sound to play back. All samples are pre-recorded audio, and the SNES is basically just starting and stopping them at different pitches. It's essentially just a very talented DJ.

Not to mention that in many cases I'd choose to layer multiple complementing sounds (like a snare and clap) together into one channel in order to produce a fuller sound. Meanwhile, you'd hear it played back through the console and would likely claim to me on here that it housed a "single instrument". Unless you know exactly how each sound in each SNES track got there, you can't go around claiming that they're made up of only 8 individual instruments. You just... can't.

Basically, you're adding unnecessary rules to determine what counts as a valid audio source. Playing back eight short samples repeatedly isn't any more valid than playing back one long one less frequently. If it actually was a less impressive technical feat to simply play shit back at CD quality, then that's what everyone would gone with (and eventually did when the hardware allowed). Your argument is pretty much the audio equivalent of "throws are cheap". Besides as Krejlooc already explained to you, it's not like the Genesis simply hit play, then sat back and did nothing, David Guetta style...
.

You'd be amazed at what a single instrument sample could do. Anyone who's owned a high end wave table synthesis sound card or device (like the Roland SCC-1) that supported general midi knows this. You didn't upload instrument samples to them, they had a full set of instrument samples already on them (some you could change the sound library). Playing a well composed midi file resulted in truly CD quality sound. It was of course amazing for PC games and far beyond what the Genesis and SNES could do (except for Sega CD games with CD sound of course, and most of them were probably using Roland devices to make their music). Not saying this validates what I said about the SNES, but a good instrument sample goes a long way and can be used to make rich sounding music. Also just because the SNES could only play 8 sounds at one time doesn't mean each voice has to have same instrument through the entirety of the song. There also could have been some great programmers that were able to increase the number of voices at once. The Amiga could only technically do 4 sampled voices, but that computer pumped out some amazing music despite the low voice count, lower fidelity output, and before they even learned how to increase the number of samples played at one time. It was an open format too, so it was easy to see the samples they used (yes most often just single instrument samples but also sometimes long multiple instrument samples or short music samples). Also I am in no way dismissing the audio on the Genesis. I have more favorite Genesis soundtracks than I do on the SNES and experience some games that go beyond what it's sound hardware was intended to do. I'm just far more impressed when somebody make awesome music on it without the use of the Sega cd.

 

[Celine]

Exactly. So since we don't have any real world examples other than Pier Solar, which is a special case by anyone's estimation, why use it as your barometer in the first place? You should only compare like with like, and that means cartridge based games against cartridge based games of similar storage capacity, and for all intents and purposes that means games that were contemporary to one another that reflect the kind of audio one experiences on either console. You don't go grabbing special cases that require a peripheral (to which there is no comparison on the SNES) to say Genesis is better.

It shows some of the best the Mega Drive sound chip could do when freed from some constraints, that's why it's cool.
Of course it wouldn't be feasible during the Mega Drive lifespan for budget constraints.

I'm all for homebrew pushing a system although it's somewhat unfair to compare to the the "true" commercial releases (that's why I always like to cite Chiptune Rocket to show what SNES could display).

whilst the closest example I've seen for the SNES (the orchestral demo) simply isn't possible in any real scenario for the console.

Of course it's not feasible in a real scenario (unless it's a short music for a intro screen), that's the definition of tech demo.
The orchestral demo is meant to show (erm play) the absolute very best quality music a SNES could without additional chip on the cart.
Can the Mega Drive sound chip , under the same conditions, play 16 bit 32khz stereo sound samples without scratching?

 

[Herne]

Uh the audio output of the original mega drive is objectively superior...

You have no idea what you are talking about. The Model 1 is THE genesis with the discrete YM2612 chip.

Sorry, but no, you are completely and utterly wrong. The original Genesis 1 has by far the best sound output of any model short of a full CCAM modded Mk.2 system, it's the gold standard that all revisions and modifications are compared against precisely because it has crystal clear output with rich bass. Only the VA7 (super late revision) Mk.1 had horrible sound output.

A very rough comparison between the model 1 and 2 system that doesn't take into account various subtle output differences between the revisions can be found here.

Well, I don't know what to tell you guys, then. I understand that model revisions usually bring about changes for the cheaper, and this means slight changes to the hardware that can reduce the quality of say, picture and, in this case, sound (witness also the C64's 6581 next to the C64C's 8580). But what I experienced back then was unmistakeable.

I just asked my flatmate about the time he borrowed a friend's Model 1 for a few days and when we played Desert Strike. His face screwed up at the thought of it and he said, and I quote - "...remember that awful sound? The horrible screeches every time there was an explosion?" You might say it was his tv, which is possible, but he had a SNES at the time and it sounded great... no screechiness.

Later on we rented out a Mega Drive - the second model - out for a weekend and we spent it playing Desert Strike and some other game (Primal Rage, I think) and the game sounded so much better. The explosions weren't the same screechy, scratchy abominations they had been before, and we could play the game without wincing or commenting on them. Maybe it's possible that Desert Strike played more to the second model's configuration than to the first model's, but I doubt it. We played the rented model on the same television, too.

Not sure what to tell you guys. Another friend of mine, while living several hundred miles away from us, rented out a Model 1 and spent all week playing Desert Strike and Jungle Strike, and he told us that the same thing happened to him. He had to turn down the sound while playing Desert Strike because it was so godawful. Whatever the issue was, it was fixed in Jungle Strike, but in the first game, on the first model? Blargh.

 

[Natetan]

Genesis fans gunna Genesis.

 

[lazygecko]

Much ado about nothing here. I just don't find streaming to be terribly interesting. Too much of an unelegant "brute force" method in my eyes. I've even heard a NES do streamed audio pretty decently.

 

[Synth]

I can't wait for our 2016 PSX vs N64 thread where we talk about how the N64 was better suited for FMVs, music and games with pre-rendered backgrounds based upon a homebrew N64 game that will be released between now and then on specialized 64DD discs using techniques never before utilized by developers.

It'll be especially great for all of us Nintendo fanboys *rolleyes* who recognize and appreciate Pier Solar as a really fucking cool accomplishment (probably the most exciting retro project I've ever seen) but don't really find it to be a 1:1 comparison to Snes or Genesis games released 20 years ago on standard hardware.

This is a shit post but it's frustrating to see a few people holding up something that

1) Was never accomplished by licensed software (large scale PCM streaming on Genesis) (Genesis software using optional CD storage)
2) Happened 20 years after the console was released

to try to change the narrative of 16-bit history.

I learned a lot in the last page or two and am frankly amazed that the Genesis chip is playing back that Pier Solar sound through its own hardware. It's leagues clearer than any SNES game I've ever heard, obviously. But that didn't do any good when storage limitations made that playback all but impossible. Yes, there were games that streamed large amounts of PCM, and those were Sega CD games that ran on Sega CD hardware. Not Genesis. It didn't do the Genesis any good when it was actually a supported system, running supported software. NOTHING released during the 16-bit era on Genesis hardware sounds anything like Pier Solar.

It's a good thing then that this discussion is taking place today, and not 20 years ago...

We're discussing an audio chip's capabilities here, not the games that used it. The Genesis sound chip doesn't become shit, simply because most had no idea how to use it.

I also didn't know about the Pier Solar stuff existed until a few pages ago either, however even prior to this my choice was still the same (this thread has been around for a while), as the sound the Genesis outputs is factually higher fidelity than the SNES overall, due to having a synth to generate the sounds without compression. This was obvious to me even as a kid (although I could never have explained why I found it to be higher quality), and is still the case today.

I also find it a little amusing that you choose to paint Sega fans with the "reimagining history" brush, seeing as emulation has done so much to help the sound of SNES games, whilst most people have been hearing Genesis tunes through a combination of inferior hardware revisions and poorly emulated audio for the longest time. If anything, today's scenarios favour the SNES far more than it really should, it really didn't sound like a lot of people today believe it did.

You'd be amazed at what a single instrument sample could do. Anyone who's owned a high end wave table synthesis sound card or device (like the Roland SCC-1) that supported general midi knows this. You didn't upload instrument samples to them, they had a full set of instrument samples already on them (some you could change the sound library). Playing a well composed midi file resulted in truly CD quality sound. It was of course amazing for PC games and far beyond what the Genesis and SNES could do (except for Sega CD games with CD sound of course, and most of them were probably using Roland devices to make their music). Not saying this validates what I said about the SNES, but a good instrument sample goes a long way and can be used to make rich sounding music. Also just because the SNES could only play 8 sounds at one time doesn't mean each voice has to have same instrument through the entirety of the song. There also could have been some great programmers that were able to increase the number of voices at once. The Amiga could only technically do 4 sampled voices, but that computer pumped out some amazing music despite the low voice count, lower fidelity output, and before they even learned how to increase the number of samples played at one time. It was an open format too, so it was easy to see the samples they used (yes most often just single instrument samples but also sometimes long multiple instrument samples or short music samples). Also I am in no way dismissing the audio on the Genesis. I have more favorite Genesis soundtracks than I do on the SNES and experience some games that go beyond what it's sound hardware was intended to do. I'm just far more impressed when somebody make awesome music on it without the use of the Sega cd.

I probably wouldn't be too surprised with what a single instrument sample can do, as pretty much all my usage of samples has been at a level of quality that neither 16bit console has any business even thinking about.

I get that you don't have to keep the same samples throughout, and that you can create amazing tracks even with a limited amount of simultaneous samples, but that doesn't really have any bearing on what I'm saying. Technically a CD player is like a single channel sampler, and that hardly restricts what sound it can playback. As I keep saying, it's pretty much all the same. Having more channels just allows you to create more complex variations with shorter samples.

Of course it's not feasible in a real scenario (unless it's a short music for a intro screen), that's the definition of tech demo.
The orchestral demo is meant to show (erm play) the absolute very best quality music a SNES could without additional chip on the cart.
Can the Mega Drive sound chip , under the same conditions, play 16 bit 32khz stereo sound samples without scratching?

I don't really know how well a Genesis would handle that demo under the same conditions. The problem with the conditions is that it actually prevents the SNES from running a game. That's very different to the Pier Solar example where the only limitation is the cartridge storage. As mentioned before, if one of those Pier Solar tracks happened to be the only track used in a game, then the storage space suddenly stops being an issue. It's something the machine is actually capable of producing, whilst running a game.

 

[beril]

I can kindof buy the the synth vs sample argument but having a single pcm channel does not make it better a chip just because it can theoretically stream music in a slightly higher quality than the SNES, when streaming wasn't really an option for either console and it can't do half the stuff the SPC700 could. GBA had two PCM channels capable of very high quality stereo playback but is essentially known as a SNES with shitty sound, because in order to use it for any real ingame scenario you had to do all mixing in software.

 

[Synth]

I can kindof buy the the synth vs sample argument but having a single pcm channel does not make it better a chip just because it can theoretically stream music in a slightly higher quality than the SNES, when streaming wasn't really an option for either console and it can't do half the stuff the SPC700 could. GBA had two PCM channels capable of very high quality stereo playback but is essentially known as a SNES with shitty sound, because in order to use it for any real ingame scenario you had to do all mixing in software.

It's not only playing back the stream though.

The data streamed from the Sega CD is streaming PCM audio, which is mixed with FM audio and other software PCM sound channels to produce Pier Solar's music through the YM2612. It is the YM2612 producing the audio, not the Sega CD's Ricoh audio chip. Streaming PCM is not the same as Redbook audio.

That being said though... If I were to be playing either console, and it was putting out a perfect version of We Have Explosive, I'd be crowning that console the victor... I wouldn't give a shit how it got there.

 

[ZealousD]

Genesis fans gunna Genesis.

The hell does this even mean?

 

[andymcc]

The hell does this even mean?

It means that the Super Nintendo being better is objective fact and that you should bow down before Chrono Trigger cuz the Genesis doesn't have JRPGs.

 

[beril]

It's not only playing back the stream though.



That being said though... If I were to be playing either console, and it was putting out a perfect version of We Have Explosive, I'd be crowning that console the victor... I wouldn't give a shit how it got there.

Is there any evidence that the CD music is anything other than a single prerecorded stream? and what would even be the point of that? I don't care which pcm channel it's streaming to, a stream is a stream; a bit better than just playing a CD track but still not comparable to chip music.

I read that the cartridge music uses software mixing to get more pcm channels, which is neat and impressive given the limited cpu power but a horrible argument for the merits of the sound chip.

 

[Krejlooc]

Is there any evidence that the CD music is anything other than a single prerecorded stream? and what would even be the point of that? I don't care which pcm channel it's streaming to, a stream is a stream; a bit better than just playing a CD track but still not comparable to chip music.

I read that the cartridge music uses software mixing to get more pcm channels, which is neat and impressive given the limited cpu power but a horrible argument for the merits of the sound chip.

Most people would not consider what the snes outputs to be chiptunes.

 

[beril]

Most people would not consider what the snes outputs to be chiptunes.

I know, I couldn't find a good word. But the sound chip is actually doing stuff. Streaming to a single channel doesn't count

 

[Synth]

Is there any evidence that the CD music is anything other than a single prerecorded stream? and what would even be the point of that? I don't care which pcm channel it's streaming to, a stream is a stream; a bit better than just playing a CD track but still not comparable to chip music.

I read that the cartridge music uses software mixing to get more pcm channels, which is neat and impressive given the limited cpu power but a horrible argument for the merits of the sound chip.

I'll be honest with you... I don't have evidence of what it's doing. Prior to Krejlooc posting about this track, I had no idea it existed. There would definitely be a point to combining it with the synth though, because the synth would be capable of producing high quality and varied audio without eating through memory, and you would have far more control over the sound produced by it. Going back to the FL Studio example again, saying that there would be no point would be like saying that since I have these sampler channels that can't handle pretty much any audio I can pass to it, there's suddenly no point in having any synth instruments such as Sytrus. You have to remember that every sample has to originate from somewhere in the first place, so having synths alongside them is very useful.

Most people would not consider what the snes outputs to be chiptunes.

I know I sure as hell don't. If we're going to peg using PCM audio as cheating and invalid, it essentially invalidates the entire SNES chip, and you can now only use the noises it can produce to judge it.

I have a feeling nobody wants to go there though.