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SNES vs Genesis Sound

Journey said:
That's why Street Fighter II is such a good benchmark, not only does it have a good variety of music from all countries, but a full list of sound effects for every hit and voices. The Crysis for PC benchmark of 16-bit sounds.

https://youtu.be/0zfUhWzmAIE?t=2m25s
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Street Fighter II is a particularly good example for showing why direct comparison of two entirely different versions of the game on the SNES and Genesis is such a poor measurement, because we have two versions on the genesis which demonstrates how different the exact same composition can be depending on driver and programmer.
 
Journey said:
That's why Street Fighter II is such a good benchmark, not only does it have a good variety of music from all countries, but a full list of sound effects for every hit and voices. The Crysis for PC benchmark of 16-bit sounds.

https://youtu.be/0zfUhWzmAIE?t=2m25s
Click to expand...

It's not a good benchmark though, because it's akin to a musician not tuning their shit properly before attempting to play it. Example.

You could just as easily argue that when used well, the Genesis is actually pretty flexible in regards to outputting all the varied sounds required for something like Street Fighter 2, whereas the SNES can't really begin to approximate the sort of output the Genesis (and arcade) had. The SNES is significantly better at handling samples than the Genesis... but it isn't doing FM synthesis, period.
 
Krejlooc said:
Street Fighter II is a particularly good example for showing why direct comparison of two entirely different versions of the game on the SNES and Genesis is such a poor measurement, because we have two versions on the genesis which demonstrates how different the exact same composition can be depending on driver and programmer.
Click to expand...


It's the same argument people made of PS2/PS3 coding, they were a nightmare, but people defended them because some were able to do well with them, but in reality they weren't ideal setups for what they were intended to do.
 
Journey said:
It's the same argument people made of PS2/PS3 coding, they were a nightmare, but people defended them because some were able to do well with them, but in reality they weren't ideal setups for what they were intended to do.
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the megadrive wasnt a complex architecture like the ps2 and ps3 are though.
 
Journey said:
It's the same argument people made of PS2/PS3 coding, they were a nightmare, but people defended them because some were able to do well with them, but in reality they weren't ideal setups for what they were intended to do.
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No it isn't. The better sounding version of Street Fighter II on the Genesis is the beta. The final version sounds worse than the version that had less work put into it.

And the Genesis is plenty capable of sample based playback.

And your comparison ignores (or you somehow aren't even aware) that the SNES version of Street Fighter II has an entirely different soundtrack from the Arcade and Genesis version -- precisely because the SNES wasn't well suited to reproducing that kind of soundtrack.
 
Journey said:
The only thing I know is what my ears tell me, and the Genesis did a great job at twangy piano-like music, but overall the SNES games did a better job at more complex soundtracks

Producing organ sounds is another strength
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Actually organs are one of FM synths known strong points.The biggest problem with the SNES is the sample size, it's hard to keep good timbre in such a small sample.
 
Soltype said:
The biggest problem with the SNES is the sample size, it's hard to keep good timbre in such a small sample.
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And you can hear pretty clearly in soundtracks like Chrono Trigger how they sequence/program the music with methods to cover up the limitations, like by making very liberal use of repeating echo notes on stuff like pianos and mallet instruments since they can't retain their natural decay, as you can hear in Corridors of Time. Contrast that with the sitar(?) melody which doesn't use this technique, which has these very noticeable looping artifacts as the sound lingers.
 
The SPC has an emotional and symphonic edge to it that the megadrive cannot match. I wil always put Chrono Trigger, SD3 et al above anything on the MD.....

...but then again, the sound of the mega drive's yamaha chip is absolutely beautiful, pure, raw sound. I can play any mega drive game, pump the volume up to deafening levels, and have a hell of a time. It's amazing.
 
Never played much Genesis as a kid so I've dismissed its chips my entire life until a couple of years ago when I started exploring its library and with the time gained a new taste for the music that damn thing could produce, it's really mind blowing.

Overall I think I prefer the SNES if only because most of my favorite soundtrack are there and its music tends to sound more "videogamey" (and yeah I realize the Genesis not being like this is a pro for many people). Also it's weird how when handled wrong the Genny can produce some really awful stuff, especially SFX, I've played some games with wonderful music where the effects felt like they were actually physically hurting my ears lol, but at the same time it has the potential to produce stuff that might as well be its own genre of music.

I'm not very informed in technicalities yet, so I'll keep reading the thread but I'm loving the talk here and the examples of great Genny music. I've been getting into Etrian Odyssey recently too and I've noticed Koshiro uses something for the soundtracks that sounds extremely similar to Genesis sound, is that FM synth? Loved his work on SOR1 and 2 and it's part of the reason I became a fan of the chip.

^btw lazygecko I'm loving your covers. Great stuff.
 
Oblivion said:
How did composers actually compose music on each system exactly?
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I composed music for the SPC (SNES).

I translated the midi notes into hex and inputted them into the rom along with corresponding channel effects and loops. I did end up writing music for a rom hack called Zelda: Parallel Worlds on the SNES and in that case I used the Hyrule Magic editor - but I still had to transpose the notes I played on my keyboard into the game's hex logic and attribute SPC channel effects and instruments to it thereforth

The only tracks that ended up in the game were recompositions of the Zelda 1 dungeon theme, but I composed many others that work on real SNES hardware.
 
Opa-Pa said:
Never played much Genesis as a kid so I've dismissed its chips my entire life until a couple of years ago when I started exploring its library and with the time gained a new taste for the music that damn thing could produce, it's really mind blowing.

Overall I think I prefer the SNES if only because most of my favorite soundtrack are there and its music tends to sound more "videogamey" (and yeah I realize the Genesis not being like this is a pro for many people). Also it's weird how when handled wrong the Genny can produce some really awful stuff, especially SFX, I've played some games with wonderful music where the effects felt like they were actually physically hurting my ears lol, but at the same time it has the potential to produce stuff that might as well be its own genre of music.

I'm not very informed in technicalities yet, so I'll keep reading the thread but I'm loving the talk here and the examples of great Genny music. I've been getting into Etrian Odyssey recently too and I've noticed Koshiro uses something for the soundtracks that sounds extremely similar to Genesis sound, is that FM synth? Loved his work on SOR1 and 2 and it's part of the reason I became a fan of the chip.

^btw lazygecko I'm loving your covers. Great stuff.
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This is exactly how I feel about the sound situation between Genesis vs Snes
 
Dies Irae on SNES.

Dies Irae on Neo-Geo.

Dies Irae on Genesis.

It's not Neo-Geo, but the bass and drum really helps it be unique and stand on its own. I know the SNES could produce faithful classical music though (given a full cart of space). To me, as complaints, Genny always had the tinniness and brown note thing going on, while SNES had a tendency to sound like flimsy, warbling midi trumpets and weak drums. But it would most often get better multi-plat music.

Fun fact: Genny had the best version of Fatal Fury 2 by far.
 
Journey said:
Might be true, but I never heard it, do you have any examples?
Click to expand...

Star Cruiser-Church
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6Jee2rXV9Q

Castlevania Bloodlines - Theme of Simon
https://youtu.be/qxb7Zfay0dY?t=1379

dlauv said:
I know the SNES could produce faithful classical music though (given a full cart of space). To me, as complaints, Genny always had the tinniness and brown note thing going on, while SNES had a tendency to sound like flimsy, warbling midi trumpets and weak drums. But it would most often get better multi-plat music.

Fun fact: Genny had the best version of Fatal Fury 2 by far.
Click to expand...

The Genesis version is just lazy, they should have had a better driver and sound designer.
 
s_mirage said:
Were any of those tracks written specifically to take advantage of the relative strengths and weaknesses of each piece of hardware, or were they written to exploit generic drivers/GM libraries? There's a reason why western PC FM tracks tended to pale in comparison to those produced for Japanese computers (besides the fact that the OPL2 was a pretty weak 2-op synth).
Click to expand...
These are the same compositions and instrumentations. There are in fine cases different midi files for different sound cards/libraries.

I don't think European fm tracks pale compared to Japanese.
 
I managed to get some really good sounds out of the SPC. even within 64kb of streaming space, as long as you had good enough samples available via the rom (and enough clever know-how to switch between banks and effects at will), you could get some really awesome sounds.

I made an SPC once that was a near-exact replica of John Barry's We Have All The Time In the World - but sadly, I don't have it anymore. I used to have it linked on an angelfire host via acmlm, but it's gone. :(
 
Rich! said:
I composed music for the SPC (SNES).

I translated the midi notes into hex and inputted them into the rom along with corresponding channel effects and loops. I did end up writing music for a rom hack called Zelda: Parallel Worlds on the SNES and in that case I used the Hyrule Magic editor - but I still had to transpose the notes I played on my keyboard into the game's hex logic and attribute SPC channel effects and instruments to it thereforth

The only tracks that ended up in the game were recompositions of the Zelda 1 dungeon theme, but I composed many others that work on real SNES hardware.
Click to expand...

So you had to know programming as well?
 
Oblivion said:
So you had to know programming as well?
Click to expand...

hex and spc loop logic at the very least

I know a good amount of ASM, but I never needed to touch it when composing for the SPC. Bear in mind I only worked with the N-SPC engine (Nintendo - Zelda, Mario World, SMK). Other devs had their own engines with likely completely different input methods and suites such as square's tech.

koji kondo, for example, would have had to program in his tunes in code.
 
I imagine there was some standardized software for audio in Nintendo's SNES devkit. There's hardly any information at all from interviews on how exactly people worked on SNES music compared to other systems, which is a shame. I read about one poor sod who had to physically mail the samples they created over to Nintendo in order for them to convert them into the proper SNES-compatible format and then wait for them to mail it back, because they lacked the tech to do it themselves. Other more fortunate devs could internally develop their own tools and drivers, like Ocean.

Today you can convert tracker modules to .spc, provided you stick within the format limitations. I think there's probably a tracker for directly composing in SPC format as well.
 
Rich! said:
hex and spc loop logic at the very least

I know a good amount of ASM, but I never needed to touch it when composing for the SPC. Bear in mind I only worked with the N-SPC engine (Nintendo - Zelda, Mario World, SMK). Other devs had their own engines with likely completely different input methods and suites such as square's tech.

koji kondo, for example, would have had to program in his tunes in code.
Click to expand...

Ah, okay.

So you'd have your MIDI synthesizer, I'd imagine, and then do your composing and all that. And then you'd convert that to the proper SNES audio format?
 
Oblivion said:
Ah, okay.

So you'd have your MIDI synthesizer, I'd imagine, and then do your composing and all that. And then you'd convert that to the proper SNES audio format?
Click to expand...

Yep. With my experience, each note and octave had a corresponding hex value (values, actually) and the effects were separate.
 
 
I never really enjoyed the Mega Drive synth at the time. I've grown to like some of the music on it more recently, but most of the stuff on the platform just doesn't do it for me.

Always preferred SNES's for the sheer variety of different sounds, even though the output was a bit muddy. At the time it was all coming out of shitty tube tv's speakers anyway.
 
jett said:
Here's the Genny version, which has a flavor of its own.

Honestly, Super/Mega Turrican is one of the few examples where both versions sound good(but different). Personally, I prefer Mega Turrican. Sounds so clean and crisp. (And the SNES version is a missing a solo at around 2:40 for some reason)
Click to expand...

Oh man, the Genesis version is cool as hell, it's super energetic, I need to give Mega Turrican a play some time, some really great sounding drum samples for the Genesis hardware too.
 
Parsnip said:
I never really enjoyed the Mega Drive synth at the time. I've grown to like some of the music on it more recently, but most of the stuff on the platform just doesn't do it for me.

Always preferred SNES's for the sheer variety of different sounds, even though the output was a bit muddy. At the time it was all coming out of shitty tube tv's speakers anyway.
Click to expand...

This is sorta me. I didn't care much for Genny music at the time with a few exceptions but looking back a lot of it is probably down to the games that I played. A lot of them were games that were also on SNES and I just thought they sounded kind of shitty in comparison. Some Genny specific music is actually really good and though the overall sound of Genny music still isn't my favorite it did crank out some badass tunes. Plus hard synthy shit wasn't all that hot to me back then so the stuff coming out of a SNES was pleasant even if it was sometimes bland.


EPSYLON EAGLE said:
Of Course...

Crusade of Centy - Place of Peace
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-7k2QnBiLA&index=21&list=PLirSddeMOYZ4EFvn0BF07WogiCc3b8fnR

Scorpions Lair UMKombat 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT7H4nVVW_g

Garfield - Count Scobula Castle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9_7nCpaLe0&index=13&list=PLFSHdeZ6gP00agVcfBOj4JPmElINKGDID

More?
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Ayy, I really like that Garfield track!
 
jaypah said:
Ayy, I really like that Garfield track!
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Thanks!

People don't understand how versatile FM synthesis can reach!

This is how an orchestra formed by only arab origin instruments would sound.

Monster World IV - Rapadagna Kingdom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-vjgIaZv4c&list=PLirSddeMOYZ6c-OfCUYfnry3SZJXoQOwn&index=12


Monster World IV - Arab Court
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFbvdGTCL-8&index=3&list=PLirSddeMOYZ6c-OfCUYfnry3SZJXoQOwn
The composer dared further and blended jazz with Arabic music, the Bass is f... awesome!
 
Easy_D said:
Oh man, the Genesis version is cool as hell, it's super energetic, I need to give Mega Turrican a play some time, some really great sounding drum samples for the Genesis hardware too.
Click to expand...

Mega Turrican has some incredible music:

Stage 1-2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tix0PV8_tbE&index=3&list=PLF3EE57659CD96551
Stage 2-1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atDWfoglyg4&list=PLF3EE57659CD96551&index=5
Stage 3-1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYHNvYSgEAA&list=PLF3EE57659CD96551&index=8
Stage 3-3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Br4w8KkMPw&list=PLF3EE57659CD96551&index=10
Stage 5-1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59TfMJfS5XY&index=15& list=PLF3EE57659CD96551 (one of the best tracks in the game)


Here is an example of a track from Toy Story, where I feel like the Genesis game sounds better than the SNES counterpart:

Genesis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPr4V1c2VqA&index=1&list=PL5DD08C64866A3712
SNES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFlZNrZ2mFg&index=1&list=PLSRvQoc-7SN1RZU70oRpiybUhE71OPt-y

Honestly, while the SNES track starts out strong, it kind of just degrades into hollow sounding instruments with a lot of reverb. The Geneis track goes an extra mile and tries its hardest to emulate the sound of saxophones, guitars, organs and a few other instruments. It does sound much "fuller" in comparison. Though the Genesis game uses some pretty crazy software mixing. Travelers Tales used to be crazy good with the Genesis hardware.

Meanwhile I could point to a track like this on the SNES here it just sounds much better than the Genesis to me:

SNES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT1pQkOadhg&list=PLSRvQoc-7SN1RZU70oRpiybUhE71OPt-y&index=19
Genesis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTmkvuXX8EQ&index=2&list=PL5DD08C64866A3712



Here is Moonlight Sonota from Earthworm Jim 2:

SNES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBMUG2GnLb0
Genesis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRkHqw58PPk

The SNES track has a softer lullaby sound to it with a lot of reverb. The Genesis version has a harder and more solitary sound. I prefer the Genesis track here.
 
I grew up with a SNES and for a very long time considered its sound to be better than the Mega Drive's. These days I have a hard time listening to the SNES and not being annoyed with how muddy it sounds. I don't think the Mega Drive got the breadth of quality soundtracks the SNES got, but it sounds real crisp.

Sewer Surfin' is still better on SNES though, for sure.
 
I actually posted in the indie dev-GAF thread about trying to make music in the same vein as an SNES or Genesis, or at least something that sounds like it. If you were asking me, it's probably just me being exposed to SNES games first and stuff, but I've always thought that the SNES sounds are just... well, nicer in the long run.

I love myself a good FM synth, though :) I just get a bit of listener fatigue after a while.

Speaking of the SNES, am I weird for thinking the GBA renditions of the Final Fantasy V and VI to be sometimes superior to the originals? Sometimes the SNES/SFC versions felt a bit too soft.
 
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