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Opinion So, after all the hype, it turns out that it's the PC that had the real next-gen "secret sauce" all along?

ZywyPL

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You still have to RENDER those triangles.
No no, you got it all wrong - the HDMI port goes straight to the SSD, so million-polygon models can be thrown directly at your screen, completely bypassing the GPU, that's the so-called "no bottleneck" design, the CPU, GPU and RAM are there just to fill the specs spreadsheet /s

Seriously, on one hand I truly adore your neverending battle against the ongoing denial on this forum, but on the other I'm wondering why are you doing this to yourself, when/if you'll realize those kids REALLY believe their 500$ consoles are way more powerful and capable than 5k$ PC. Just let it go man, let their denial consume them from the inside.
 

Elog

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So a game like FS2020 is streaming in satellite geography data at a rate up to 250 MB/s if you happen to have a connection that good, but most players will probably have internet half that speed at best, probably even lower. No it's not streaming all of the game graphics data at that rate obviously, but it does go to show that for the game's presumed highest quality assets that aren't coming from the discs or a local install, you only need a peak internet connection of 250 MB/s (most likely less) to do it.
I am not sure what you are trying to prove. The key asset that is downloaded in FS2020 (AFAIK) is geometry. There is a fairly limited amount of texture assets used together with procedural algorithms for things such as weather, clouds as so on.

If we are talking about different sets of high resolution textures the data amounts are significantly higher.

I might have misunderstood what your key argument is but I read it as 'if MS2020 - that looks so great - does not need more than 250 MB/sec, any good looking game does not need more than that'. That would be an intensely false association of analytical objects - if that is your argument.
 
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Mister Wolf

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No no, you got it all wrong - the HDMI port goes straight to the SSD, so million-polygon models can be thrown directly at your screen, completely bypassing the GPU, that's the so-called "no bottleneck" design, the CPU, GPU and RAM are there just to fill the specs spreadsheet /s

Seriously, on one hand I truly adore your neverending battle against the ongoing denial on this forum, but on the other I'm wondering why are you doing this to yourself, when/if you'll realize those kids REALLY believe their 500$ consoles are way more powerful and capable than 5k$ PC. Just let it go man, let their denial consume them from the inside.
That Cerny speech did alot of damage. It weaponized the ignorant.
 

Elog

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Seriously, on one hand I truly adore your neverending battle against the ongoing denial on this forum, but on the other I'm wondering why are you doing this to yourself, when/if you'll realize those kids REALLY believe their 500$ consoles are way more powerful and capable than 5k$ PC. Just let it go man, let their denial consume them from the inside.
You are not making yourself any service. PC is hampered by I/O. In every other aspect a high-end rig beats the consoles (including PS5 and XSX into pulp).

The I/O is hampered by motherboard specifications and by the fact that RAM and VRAM are separated pools of memory on the PC. There is no workaround for that.

To what extent that console advantage can be utilised for graphics remain to be seen but the UE5 demo clearly showed that it is possible to utilise that advantage for graphics.
 
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ZywyPL

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You are not making yourself any service. PC is hampered by I/O. In every other aspect a high-end rig beats the consoles (including PS5 and XSX into pulp).

The I/O is hampered by motherboard specifications and by the fact that RAM and VRAM are separated pools of memory on the PC. There is no workaround for that.

Ever wondered why? Maybe because CPU and GPU have different requirements towards the memory to reach their maximum performance, and maybe that's exactly why on PCs, or even the most powerful HPC centers and supercomputers on the planed use such setup?



To what extent that console advantage can be utilised for graphics remain to be seen but the UE5 demo clearly showed that it is possible to utilise that advantage for graphics.
That demo that didn't even run at 1440p? Which is said to run even better on a laptop? And that will be officially supported even on PS4 and XB1? PCs will smash that demo whether you want to believe it or not, because data has to be processed before it can be used, end of story.
 
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Mister Wolf

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You are not making yourself any service. PC is hampered by I/O. In every other aspect a high-end rig beats the consoles (including PS5 and XSX into pulp).

The I/O is hampered by motherboard specifications and by the fact that RAM and VRAM are separated pools of memory on the PC. There is no workaround for that.

To what extent that console advantage can be utilised for graphics remain to be seen but the UE5 demo clearly showed that it is possible to utilise that advantage for graphics.
And that can be brute forced on PC by having more of the game on RAM. Even the older X470 board I have now supports up to 128GB of DDR4 at 3400Mhz
 
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I am not sure what you are trying to prove. The key asset that is downloaded in FS2020 (AFAIK) is geometry. There is a fairly limited amount of texture assets used together with procedural algorithms for things such as weather, clouds as so on.

If we are talking about different sets of high resolution textures the data amounts are significantly higher.

I might have misunderstood what your key argument is but I read it as 'if MS2020 - that looks so great - does not need more than 250 MB/sec, any good looking game does not need more than that'. That would be an intensely false association of analytical objects - if that is your argument.
Yeah this is definitely a case of you reading into things with your own assumptions, I said in the original post that it was in reference to specific types of game data. To elaborate that can include geometry data and certain types of texture asset data.

For higher-resolution textures it depends. A native 4K texture is ~25 MB, as an example. But we can even consider 2K or 1440p native textures as high-resolution depending on the boundary of what is "high resolution" in a modern context. In both cases you're looking at even lower texture asset sizes.

For some of the geometry textures they could have a single base texture and smaller textures, like alpha textures, to offset the base texture. Those alpha textures would be magnitudes smaller in size than the base, so you can realistically scale a few of those native 4K base textures through and a good chunk of those offsetting alpha textures through a network connection and, again, the top-end for network connections AFAIK is about 250 MB/s, the vast majority of which most people don't even have.

I don't see how that's really interpreted as in any way downplaying SSDs, it's just a means of me saying not all types of data or texture asset streaming pipelines require the maximum bandwidth throughput of next-gen SSDs, or even the data packaging infrastructure of the next-gen SSDs. But those SSDs still serve a very strong role and you have the added benefit of all of that streamed data being localized to the device which can benefit latency issues (some types of asset streaming pipelines don't really require super-tight latency to be efficient, though, FWIW).
 

VFXVeteran

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Just check the DF video on Flight Simulator...at around 50 FPS at higher resolutions the game is CPU bound and not GPU bound with all graphical details on.

You live in the past where all games had to run on console (i.e. Jaguar). Once that boundary condition is taken out moving grass, clouds, water, NPCs etc will all eat CPU resources and be rate limiting as well.
A game can go from CPU bound to GPU bound. FS2020 goes to CPU bound because there is a lot going on that needs a CPU to compute. That's been the case for every accurate flight simulator or any simulator for that matter.

I'm talking about the games that don't utilize the CPU in such a way (i.e. most games).
 

Redlancet

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There are plenty of games made on all platforms that have bigger budgets than Sony exclusives.
Like as?
And it's not the other way around with console gamers claiming bullshit such as their $400 boxes matching a high-end rig?

Sorta explains why we had to debunk bullshit such as "eyes can't see above 30fps", "30fps is more cinematic", "can't spot the difference between 1080p and 4K below 50 inches" and all kinds of garbage that downplayed PC's obvious advantages. Then the resolution wars on consoles that made a big deal of 900p vs 1080p but somehow 1440p and 4K didn't make a difference lol.



Graphics, res and performance matter...until PC steps in then all that matters is price and AAA exclusives.
dudes like you are so fun,i have a big pc ( if you consider big a rtx 2080TI)and i game a lot on pc i mean a lot,battlefield v,hell let loose,and every demanding game out there on pc and this sentiment of pc elitist of BUT MY PC ITS O POWERFULL CONSOLE PEASANTS is pathetic,its seems like its a response of total insecurity,the most important thing for a game to look good ITS BUDGET,yes u can put the game un 4k,yes it will run at 60 fps,and thats good,but fuck me if im amazed that things like the last of us 2,horizont zero dawn or ghost of tsushima can run on a ps4 pro

thats the secret sauce,good games with incredible high budgets,dont fucking care where they can run
 
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nemiroff

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I’m as hyped as the next Nvidia fanboy is about DLSS. The results are fantastic. However, none of the games I play support it. This is the main problem here. Games need to be individually trained.
Not anymore AFAIK. Every game uses the same neural network now.
 
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NullZ3r0

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Hard to disagree.

DLSS 2.0 - alone - if the PS5 had it and the XSX didn't, could be enough to mitigate the XSX power advantage.

But neither console has it. Currently it's PC exclusive.
MS has DirectML which I believe Playground Games is already testing.
 

cyber69

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Not anymore AFAIK. Every game uses the same neural network now.
Every game supporting DLSS used the same cluster before (this includes v1 and v2). However, I stand corrected. I found a better description on how DLSS 2 is implemented versus 1:

"DLSS 2.0 has a completely different approach. Instead of using deep learning to solve anti-aliasing, it uses the Temporal Anti-Aliasing (TAA) framework and then has deep learning solve the TAA history problem. To understand how DLSS2 works you must understand how TAA works."
Reference

This leads me to my excitement for DLSSv3. Any game that supports TAA will support DLSSv3.
Reference
 
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01011001

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Hard to disagree.

DLSS 2.0 - alone - if the PS5 had it and the XSX didn't, could be enough to mitigate the XSX power advantage.

But neither console has it. Currently it's PC exclusive.
it seems that it's the other way around tho.
Microsoft confirmed fp8 and fp4 acceleration meant for machine learning, while Sony never did and that one sony guy on twitter mentioned it specifically as one RDNA2 feature that's missing in the PS5 gpu.

but either way, Microsoft's Direct ML will most likely be not nearly as performant as DLSS2.0 running on RTX tensor cores.
 

Redlancet

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Zelda:BOTW
RDR2
All of the AC games
All of the Battlefield games
All of the CoD games
Doom games
Any of the CDPRed games (Witcher, Cyberpunk)
RE games (Capcom)

I could go on and on.. all are big budget games... and by far.
So let me see

Zelda doesnt have the budget of a nd game I pretty sure of that
Rdr2 its a console game first, made for consoles ported to pc, like the 90 per cent of that list, it was díshonest from your part to use third party games when my point its about exclusives, still in the budget ot tlou2 its bigger that any of these games except rdr2
So tell me, any pc exclusive game on that list? Come on you can use star citizen, I want to have a big laugh, this of pc elitism Maybe work in your circles, im a pc gamer too and 99 % of gamers dont care

You know thats being your pc elitism? Just a guy that for some reason its Angry at people who can enjoy the same thing for Almost a third of the money he spends doing benchmarks and bragging about hardware in forums
 
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RoadHazard

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Dude, are you serious? Most of Spiderman's city is just instances of the same geometry. It's probably extremely light weight.
Ok, so that's why the game had to be designed around the very slow HDD speeds? If it was extremely lightweight, that doesn't make sense. Just keep it all loaded.

No, it's not the same geometry over and over again. There are many instances of the same common objects of course, but most if not all buildings are unique etc. There's a good GDC video about the challenges they had to overcome to get this game working with HDD transfer speeds, and how it limited what they could do. The SSD in the PS5 will remove those limitations, and will have a much greater effect than just "it will free up some memory", which is a ridiculous thought if you understand how this actually works.
 
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Mister Wolf

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Ok, so that's why the game had to be designed around the very slow HDD speeds? If it was extremely lightweight, that doesn't make sense. Just keep it all loaded.

No, it's not the same geometry over and over again. There are many instances of the same common objects of course, but most if not all buildings are unique etc. There's a good GDC video about the challenges they had to overcome to get this game working with HDD transfer speeds, and how it limited what they could do. The SSD in the PS5 will remove those limitations, and will have a much greater effect than just "it will free up some memory", which is a ridiculous thought if you understand how this actually works.
The PS4 only has 8GB of RAM. I already explained to you the inverse proportion between storage speed and ram usage.
 
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RoadHazard

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The PS4 only has 8GB of RAM. I already explained to you the inverse proportion between storage speed and ram usage.
And I've tried to explain to you guys that unless you literally have enough RAM to load full games (have fun on that loading screen btw), just having more memory doesn't let you do everything you can with an SSD. In many current games it could, sure, but that's because there are no games yet that were made specifically with SSDs in mind. You're just not thinking big enough.

Obviously, a fast SSD plus huge memory is the best possible combination, and you will be able to do that on a PC, but that's not what the discussion is about.
 
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Mister Wolf

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And I've tried to explain to you guys that unless you literally have enough RAM to load full games (have fun on that loading screen btw), just having more memory doesn't let you do everything you can with an SSD. In many current games, sure, but that's because there are no games yet that were made specifically with SSDs in mind.
You don't need to load the full game that's the part you don't understand. I already explained to you that The Medium uses a larger pool of Ram on PC than it does on Series X. Why do you think the Series X can get away with using less Ram?
 
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theclaw135

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You are not making yourself any service. PC is hampered by I/O. In every other aspect a high-end rig beats the consoles (including PS5 and XSX into pulp).

The I/O is hampered by motherboard specifications and by the fact that RAM and VRAM are separated pools of memory on the PC. There is no workaround for that.

To what extent that console advantage can be utilised for graphics remain to be seen but the UE5 demo clearly showed that it is possible to utilise that advantage for graphics.
Is there a reason they can't conjoin the CPU and GPU into a system on a chip with unified on board RAM?
I don't think ancient headaches like the 640KB barrier have been entirely removed from the PC architecture.
 

RoadHazard

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You don't need to load the full game that's the part you don't understand. I already explained to you that The Medium uses a larger pool of Ram on PC then it does on Series X. Why do you think the Series X can get away with using less Ram?
Does The Medium require an SSD on PC? If not, it's irrelevant to this discussion. I've already said that, yes, a fast SSD means RAM can be utilized more efficiently. I've never said I don't agree with that. What I'm refuting is that that's ALL it does. I'm saying there are things you COULD do with an SSD that just aren't realistically possible with an HDD even if you have 64GB RAM. But that would obviously require a game that is designed exclusively for SSD and made to take full advantage of it. The Medium, as far as I know, is not such a game.
 
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Mister Wolf

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Does The Medium require an SSD on PC? If not, it's irrelevant to this discussion. I've already said that, yes, a fast SSD means RAM can be utilized more efficiently. I've never said I don't agree with that. What I'm refuting is that that's ALL it does. I'm saying there are things you COULD do with an SSD that just aren't realistically possible with an HDD even if you have 64GB RAM. But that would obviously require a game that is designed exclusively for SSD and made to take full advantage of it. The Medium, as far as I know, is not such a game.
Its not irrelevant. It requires MORE RAM. WHY?
 

RoadHazard

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Its not irrelevant. It requires MORE RAM. WHY?
I don't know why. You're saying it's because PCs can't be expected to have SSDs while the Series X can, if I understand you correctly? That's fine. But again, that means the game is NOT designed to take full advantage of SSDs. Doesn't mean it can't make some use of one.

Have the devs stated that this is the reason? Or are you just guessing, and it might just be that the highest PC settings have larger textures etc? How much more RAM do you need on PC?
 
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VincentMatts

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You do realize that windows 10 doesn't support the velocity architecture right? That SSD magic aint on pc for the time being. Secret sause indeed.
 

Mister Wolf

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I don't know why. You're saying is because PCs can't be expected to have SSDs while the Series X can? That's fine. But again, that means the game is NOT designed to take full advantage of SSDs. Doesn't mean it can't make some use of one.

Have the devs stated that this is the reason? Or are you just guessing, and it might just be that the highest PC settings have larger textures etc? How much more RAM do you need on PC?
You not understanding why is exactly the problem RoadHazard.
 

Thugnificient

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dudes like you are so fun,i have a big pc ( if you consider big a rtx 2080TI)and i game a lot on pc i mean a lot,battlefield v,hell let loose,and every demanding game out there on pc and this sentiment of pc elitist of BUT MY PC ITS O POWERFULL CONSOLE PEASANTS is pathetic,its seems like its a response of total insecurity,the most important thing for a game to look good ITS BUDGET,yes u can put the game un 4k,yes it will run at 60 fps,and thats good,but fuck me if im amazed that things like the last of us 2,horizont zero dawn or ghost of tsushima can run on a ps4 pro

thats the secret sauce,good games with incredible high budgets,dont fucking care where they can run
What the fuck are you even talking about? The guy I was replying to said PC gamers were the ones starting system warring and I responded console gamers are just as responsible.
 

DonJuanSchlong

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I don't know why. You're saying is because PCs can't be expected to have SSDs while the Series X can? That's fine. But again, that means the game is NOT designed to take full advantage of SSDs. Doesn't mean it can't make some use of one.

Have the devs stated that this is the reason? Or are you just guessing, and it might just be that the highest PC settings have larger textures etc? How much more RAM do you need on PC?
You do realize SSD aren't new? Next gen consoles aren't the first to sport them. If I'm not mistaken my first SSD was before the launch of the og ps4/xb1. Just about every PC gamer has a SSD, so I'm unsure why it seems like you are insinuating that all PC gamers are stuck in time like current gen consoles or something.
 
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Mister Wolf

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What am I not understanding?

Either way, just because this game needs less RAM when it's on an SSD (if that's indeed the case), that doesn't mean that's the ONLY THING an SSD can do for a game. How is that so hard to understand?
It needs less ram because there is LESS of a bottleneck from the storage feeding data into the ram which is what I've been trying to explain to you about the inverse proportion this whole time.
 
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RoadHazard

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You do realize SSD aren't new? Next gen consoles aren't the first to sport them. If I'm not mistaken my first SSD was before the launch of the og ps4/xb1. Just about every PC gamer has a SSD, so I'm unsure why it seems like you are insinuating that all PC gamers are stuck in time like current gen consoles or something.
Almost all games are made with consoles as the baseline, and those currently have HDDs. That means these games are not designed to take advantage of an SSD, you'll just get some faster load times. This is not a difficult thing to understand.
 

RoadHazard

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It needs less ram because there is LESS of a bottleneck from the storage feeding data into the ram which is what I've been trying to explain to you about the inverse proportion this whole time.
Yes, that's exactly what I said. And I also said that's not the ONLY thing as SSD can do IF the game is designed to take full advantage of it. This "inverse proportion" only goes so far, but an SSD used right can go further than that.

Actually, just read my posts (clearly you haven't really done that), I'm getting tired of repeating myself to people who refuse to try to understand very simple ideas.
 
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I see RT as being the next big step in games and DLSS is the sauce to get there. Nvidia sees it this way too. It would be nice if I could say that having robust CPUs was the real sauce that allows for high frame rates, densely populated cities, and amazing gameplay physics, but I fear devs are still just making the shit as always with a new coat of paint.
 

Mister Wolf

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Yes, that's exactly what I said. And I also said that's not the ONLY thing as SSD can do IF the game is designed to take full advantage of it. This "inverse proportion" only goes so far, but an SSD used right can go further than that.

Actually, just read my posts (clearly you haven't really done that), I'm getting tired of repeating myself to people who refuse to try to understand very simple ideas.
Please explain the "other things" I sincerely would like to know. Not being sarcastic.
 
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cyber69

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You do realize that windows 10 doesn't support the velocity architecture right? That SSD magic aint on pc for the time being. Secret sause indeed.
You do realize the majority of Velocity Architecture's features is software and will be supported on the PC going forward.
 

diffusionx

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You are not making yourself any service. PC is hampered by I/O. In every other aspect a high-end rig beats the consoles (including PS5 and XSX into pulp).

The I/O is hampered by motherboard specifications and by the fact that RAM and VRAM are separated pools of memory on the PC. There is no workaround for that.

To what extent that console advantage can be utilised for graphics remain to be seen but the UE5 demo clearly showed that it is possible to utilise that advantage for graphics.
Yea, ok, maybe the PC is "hampered" by I/O, even though the PC has similar I/O capabilities now, it's just not widespread. But yea, sure. And maybe the PC has "separated pools of memory." Sure. Ignore the fact that years-old, high end GPUs have almost as much memory as the entire PS5/XSX (my 3-year old 1080TI has 11GB of RAM) and it's easy enough to get 16GB-32GB of main RAM. But sure, the fact that they're not together, it's a problem.

Do you think that UE5 demo was *impossible* to do on a PC today? Like it cannot be done in that form because the PS5's secret SSD can't be matched by the PC?

That's the point - nobody is doubting the PS5 is a cool machine, with some neat tech. They're doubting the idea that the PS5 contains some magical systems that another computing platform, the one the PS5 is based on, cannot match it, even at a higher price with newer, more high end parts and higher specs.

You do realize that windows 10 doesn't support the velocity architecture right? That SSD magic aint on pc for the time being. Secret sause indeed.
Except it does, in the new DirectX 12. Microsoft has absolutely no incentive to keep this stuff on console, especially when literally all their games are coming to PC day one.
 
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psorcerer

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Maybe because CPU and GPU have different requirements towards the memory to reach their maximum performance, and maybe that's exactly why on PCs, or even the most powerful HPC centers and supercomputers on the planed use such setup?
No. It's because of legacy architecture.
There's no way to redesign it.
 
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RoadHazard

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Please explain the "other things" I sincerely would like to know. Not being sarcastic.
We haven't seen many examples yet. R&C is probably the first one that shows SOME of this potential, but obviously it's just a first attempt and we'll see much more impressive things in the years to come.

R&C clearly loads for 2 seconds or so between each world, which lines up nicely with how long it should take to replace most of the data in RAM (and there look to be very few shared assets between the different environments). To do this on a machine with an HDD you'd need A LOT of memory (to load all environments in advance), and you'd still hit the ceiling after a few world jumps. With an SSD there is no such limit, you could do 50 jumps in a row and there'd be no issue. I'm not saying the game will do that, because that would be silly, but it's at least a theoretical example of something you could do with an SSD that you just couldn't with an HDD no matter how much memory you had. Game designers and developers will come up with more actual ways to take advantage of the ability to completely replace all data in memory in 2 seconds.
 

Mister Wolf

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We haven't seen many examples yet. R&C is probably the first one that shows SOME of this potential, but obviously it's just a first attempt and we'll see much more impressive things in the years to come.

R&C clearly loads for 2 seconds or so between each world, which lines up nicely with how long it should take to replace most of the data in RAM (and there look to be very few shared assets between the different environments). To do this on a machine with an HDD you'd need A LOT of memory (to load all environments in advance), and you'd still hit the ceiling after a few world jumps. With an SSD there is no such limit, you could do 50 jumps in a row and there'd be no issue. I'm not saying the game will do that, because that would be silly, but it's at least a theoretical example of something you could do with an SSD that you just couldn't with an HDD no matter how much memory you had. Game designers and developers will come up with more actual ways to take advantage of the ability to completely replace all data in memory in 2 seconds.
But that begs the question RoadHazard how many games are you going to see where you're need to jump to a whole new world with new assets in a blink of an eye? That's something designed around Ratchet and Clank's story and a very specific use case. Even in actual gameplay the little they showed where you had full control of the character like normal running through the environment all you were doing is teleporting to cover in the same area and using it to across chasms. I can see if you could swap worlds on the fly as conveniently and quickly as you swap weapons in R&C that would be impressive as hell but I think we both know that wont be the case.
 
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RoadHazard

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But that begs the question RoadHazard how many games are you going to see where you're need to jump to a whole new world with new assets in a blink of an eye? That's something designed around Ratchet and Clank's story and a very specific use case. Even in actual gameplay the little they showed where you had full control of the character like normal running through the environment all you were doing is teleporting to cover in the same area and using it to across chasms. I can see if you could swap worlds on the fly as conveniently and quickly as you swap weapons in R&C that would be impressive as hell but I think we both know that wont be the case.
That's only one example though. Another is something like flight in very detailed open world games such as Horizon. Currently not really possible, because you can't load everything quickly enough for such high speed traversal. And you're not loading the entirety of such a game into 16 or 32GB of memory.

(FS2020 uses a lot of procedural generation, and the individual models aren't very detailed, so it's not really comparable, as great as that game looks at larger distances).
 
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Mister Wolf

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That's only one example though. Another is something like flight in very detailed open world games such as Horizon. Currently not really possible, because you can't load everything quickly enough for such high speed traversal. And you're not loading the entirety of such a game into 16 or 32GB of memory.

(FS2020 uses a lot of procedural generation, and the individual models aren't very detailed, so it's not really comparable, as great as that game looks at larger distances).
That's a completely different case and could be made up for by using more Ram. The only usage case where you are making your point is when they completely wipe the Ram to load new data on the fly.
 
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Mister Wolf

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How much more RAM? You can't just keep saying "add more RAM" indefinitely. Also, the load times would be insane.
But that's the thing about PC you can say use more Ram as it isn't fixed and as many people have explained you will never get to that point because you will bottleneck the GPU beforehand. I keep telling you it wouldn't be all of the game it would be more of the game since you know you don't have access to the whole game at any given point while playing. I can see if you were talking about teleport/blinking across the map buts that not the case if it was then that would be the R&C example all over again.
 

01011001

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That's only one example though. Another is something like flight in very detailed open world games such as Horizon. Currently not really possible, because you can't load everything quickly enough for such high speed traversal. And you're not loading the entirety of such a game into 16 or 32GB of memory.

(FS2020 uses a lot of procedural generation, and the individual models aren't very detailed, so it's not really comparable, as great as that game looks at larger distances).
that's also complete bullshit. Horizon isn't much more detailed than other open world games that have super fast vehicles that can transport you across the map at high speeds.
if anything that's a limitation of their highly overrated engine.

in Just Cause 4 you can take a fighter jet and fly super fast across the map, which is way more dense in many areas than Horizon's and it is also way more interactive.
in Forza Horizon 4 you can literally speed across the open world at 500KM/h (about 50% of the speed of sound) with hyper performance cars, and that game loads just fine as well.



here, someone is using a speed glitch to have cars way faster than usually possible brekaing the 800KM/h barrier, coming very close to the speed of sound

 
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RoadHazard

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that's also complete bullshit. Horizon isn't much more detailed than other open world games that have super fast vehicles that can transport you across the map at high speeds.
if anything that's a limitation of their highly overrated engine.

in Just Cause 4 you can take a fighter jet and fly super fast across the map, which is way more dense in many areas than Horizon's and it is also way more interactive.
in Forza Horizon 4 you can literally speed across the open world at 500KM/h (about 50% of the speed of sound) with hyper performance cars, and that game loads just fine as well.



here, someone is using a speed glitch to have cars way faster than usually possible brekaing the 800KM/h barrier, coming very close to the speed of sound

Neither of those games are as detailed as Horizon, and they also have pretty simple maps with tons of repeated assets. So they are likely less reliant on streaming in tons of data. Also, I'm talking about how games will look next gen, not how they look now. Look at the Horizon 2 trailer and tell me that's not more detailed. Or the UE5 demo. Theoretically an open world game with that level of detail (or close) could be possible with an SSD. With an HDD, no way.

But look, it's just a fact that the HDDs in the current consoles can manage at most around 100MB/s, and that's being generous. If you really can't imagine anything that 5.5GB/s could make possible that can't be done with 100MB/s, I don't really know how what to say.
 
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01011001

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Neither of those games is as detailed as Horizon, and they also have pretty simple maps with tons of repeated assets. So they are likely less reliant on streaming in tons of data. Also, I'm talking about how games will look next gen, not how they look now. Look at the Horizon 2 trailer and tell me that's not more detailed.

But look, it's just a fact that the HDDs in the current consoles can manage at most around 100MB/s, and that's being generous. If you really can't imagine anything that 5.5GB/s could make possible that can't be done with 100MB/s, I don't really know how what to say.
well, still, there are current gen games with open worlds that easily work while flying across them at super high speeds. saying that was not possible in Horizon is simply false. maybe they would have needed to make some compromises here or there but if they really wanted they could have made it possible.
I disagree tho that Forza for example has a lot of repeated assets... there is a whole city with individual buildings which you can also speed across at ridiculous speeds, and that city is very detailed.

next gen of course, that's another thing entirely. SSDs are a necessity in next gen systems, either that or super large pool of ram would be needed.

on PC you can easily overcome storage limitations with a high ram pool. we have GPUs that have as much VRAM as next gen systems have, then with the new DDR5 standard releasing soon, a spool of 32GB of DDR5 ram is absolutely enough to have a large enough buffer for the most needed assets to be stored on and fed into the VRAM of the GPU
 
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