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[perfectnight]

Isn´t the consensus on GAF that Demon Souls>Dark Souls?

The consensus among people who don't know shit. Dark Souls has all the atmosphere, awesome level design and memorable encounters from Demon's Souls + more.

 

[squidyj]

Skyrim is addicting as all hell and I have to admit here that I haven't played Dark Souls yet so I can't really comment but from what I have played The Witcher 2 just does so much more in terms of representing the tenets of role playing in a role playing game. The characters in The Witcher 2 come alive and choices and decisions made by the player are integrated in an interesting and organic manner. The prettiness of the game only further serves to reinforce the immersion of the player into the game world. Skyrim is fun for going around and beating on stuff and becoming SUPERHERO OF THE GODDAMN UNIVERSE but I haven't found any really compelling characters or interesting choices just "do you want more power?" with the answers of "yes" or "hell yes"

 

[Orayn]

The consensus among people who don't know shit. Dark Souls has all the atmosphere, awesome level design and memorable encounters from Demon's Souls + more.

It also has some unpolished areas, online play that still doesn't work right, and framerate drops that are worse than anything in Demon's Souls. That said, I think Dark Souls is the better game as well.

 

[Ill Saint]

Dark Souls, regardless of any J or W.

Skyrim is fun. I like the ES series and the Fallout games, but it's just more of the same old formula. Same weird and bizarre random gitches, endless caves of scaling loot. I'm only 10 or so hours in, and I'll be clocking whole lot more like I did with the other games, but the lack of variety and surprise so far leaves me a little weary.

 

[Meier]

I don't see how anyone could say otherwise. These are far and away the best or each genre this gen.

 

[Meier]

Nah. Not even close. Demon's/Dark Souls are the best things out of the JRPG genre since, ever.

These are not JRPGs for one and two, are not at Skyrim's level despite their effort to emulate a WRPG.

 

[Aeana]

Sorry I only said that because those 2 games are generally regarded as the worst wrpg and jrpg of the generation by fans of the genres. Well, DA2 is there too I guess.

I don't know how FF13 could be considered the worst in a generation that has Magical Starsign, Infinite Undiscovery, Sands of Destruction, Glory of Heracles, Eternal Sonata, Tales of the Tempest, Metal Saga DS, Jewel Summoner, Nostalgia, White Knight Chronicles PSP... (I feel like I could go on forever). Unless people are making sweeping generalizations about a genre that they actually have played very little from. And we all know that couldn't be the case - everybody here is an expert on the Japanese RPGs of this generation.

 

[Riposte]

These are not JRPGs for one

This is true... for the same reason Skyrim isn't a WRPG.

I am not completely sure Skyrim should be compared to Dark Souls. Skyrim is on the edge of two genres in my mind: Diablo/Witcher 1/MMO/clickan'/hot-bar single character games(I would call this ARPG, if not for all the baggage) and 3D Action games which Dark Souls and Witcher 2 fits. (Given how close it is, it wouldn't be outrageous to make that comparison. For which Skyrim gets utterly stomped by Dark Souls, but is still worth playing if you want to be a pig and stuff your face with lore and setting.)

I don't know how FF13 could be considered the worst in a generation that has Magical Starsign, Infinite Undiscovery, Sands of Destruction, Glory of Heracles, Eternal Sonata, Tales of the Tempest, Metal Saga DS, Jewel Summoner, Nostalgia, White Knight Chronicles PSP... (I feel like I could go on forever). Unless people are making sweeping generalizations about a genre that they actually have played very little from. And we all know that couldn't be the case - everybody here is an expert on the Japanese RPGs of this generation.

In these threads which happen to be about JRPGs there are two negative influences that hurt analysis. There are those who don't care enough to separate JRPGs and there are those who care too much about JRPGs to separate good and bad game design.

 

[Orayn]

These are not JRPGs for one and two, are not at Skyrim's level despite their effort to emulate a WRPG.

1. "What is an RPG? A miserable pile of arbitrary definitions!"

2. Dark Souls isn't really emulating anything. Most of its gameplay elements can be traced back to King's Field, which is an anomalous East-meets-West affair that's been doing its own thing since 1994.

3. What do you mean by "level?" Production values? Scale?

 

[toastyToast]

Isn´t the consensus on GAF that Demon Souls>Dark Souls?

There is a lot of romanticization about Demon's. Dark's superiority will become more obvious over time

 

[Meier]

This is true... for the same reason Skyrim isn't a WRPG.

Explain that one to me. The Elder Scrolls series is absolutely one of the first WRPGs pre-dating Bioware and their take on the RPG gente so I'm at a lost.

I actually still haven't played Witcher 2 despite loving the original. Been waiting on a $10-$15 Steam sale. I can't imagine it will top Skyrim for me though. That's absolutely my GOTG.

 

[Riposte]

Explain that one to me. The Elder Scrolls series is absolutely one of the first WRPGs pre-dating Bioware and their take on the RPG gente so I'm at a lost.

BioWare, Black Isle, etc don't particularly matter. The genre, which is arguably the same as SRPG, began with games like Pool of Radiance which were emulating the strategy/wargame aspects of Dungeons and Dragons. (Fire Emblem is considered the beginning of the SRPG, but Pool of Radiance was a little before it and one could argue that they are in the same genre.)

I actually still haven't played Witcher 2 despite loving the original. Been waiting on a $10-$15 Steam sale. I can't imagine it will top Skyrim for me though. That's absolutely my GOTG.

It is an issue of quality vs quantity, if I am imagining why you like Skyrim so much correctly.

 

[Meier]

1. "What is an RPG? A miserable pile of arbitrary definitions!"

http://i.imgur.com/Xi6Ez.jpg[IMG]

2. Dark Souls isn't really emulating anything. Most of its gameplay elements can be traced back to King's Field, which is an anomalous East-meets-West affair that's been doing its own thing since 1994.

3. What do you mean by "level?" Production values? Scale?[/QUOTE]Not at the same level in that it isn't as fun, it doesn't look as good graphically, it doesn't sound as good and it has less content. It has a less compelling storyline if it even has one... It requires a certain type of player who is willing to devote themselves to the game so it has created fanatics. That doesn't make it a great game though.

JRPGs are a very defined genre. There is no question that From Software titles are not in the same genre as Xenoblade or Final Fantasy. I think Tales of Vesperia is probably the second best JRPG this gen but I haven't played the new PS3 one which is meant to be quite good as I understand it.

 

[Riposte]

Not at the same level in that it isn't as fun, it doesn't look as good graphically, it doesn't sound as good and it has less content. It has a less compelling storyline if it even has one... It requires a certain type of player who is willing to devote themselves to the game so it has created fanatics. That doesn't make it a great game though.

A terrible argument for superiority, since it ignores the depth of the mechanics(combat system, encounter design, challenge, etc). Your dismissive tone on 'Souls fans is humorous though. As if Skyrim, with its time consuming filler quests won't spawn its own fanatics. (Dark Souls will never know the grace and glory that is pedophilic furry nude mods ...)

JRPGs are a very defined genre. There is no question that From Software titles are not in the same genre as Xenoblade or Final Fantasy. I think Tales of Vesperia is probably the second best JRPG this gen but I haven't played the new PS3 one which is meant to be quite good as I understand it.

Apparently not defined well enough. Xenoblade and Tales of Vesperia shouldn't be in the same genre as Final Fantasy.

 

[randomkid]

I don't know how FF13 could be considered the worst in a generation that has Magical Starsign, Infinite Undiscovery, Sands of Destruction, Glory of Heracles, Eternal Sonata, Tales of the Tempest, Metal Saga DS, Jewel Summoner, Nostalgia, White Knight Chronicles PSP... (I feel like I could go on forever). Unless people are making sweeping generalizations about a genre that they actually have played very little from. And we all know that couldn't be the case - everybody here is an expert on the Japanese RPGs of this generation.

Haha I have a still sealed copy of Magical Starsign I got for 8 bucks a few years ago. One day I'll crack it open to bask in the Legend of Mana style and see if it lives up to its horrific rep.

Also, don't forget to add My World My Way and Steal Princess. Still feel like 2010 Atlus really poisoned the DS well, we coulda had 7th Dragon and Sakura Note dammit!

 

[HK-47]

Not at the same level in that it isn't as fun, it doesn't look as good graphically, it doesn't sound as good and it has less content. It has a less compelling storyline if it even has one... It requires a certain type of player who is willing to devote themselves to the game so it has created fanatics. That doesn't make it a great game though.

JRPGs are a very defined genre. There is no question that From Software titles are not in the same genre as Xenoblade or Final Fantasy. I think Tales of Vesperia is probably the second best JRPG this gen but I haven't played the new PS3 one which is meant to be quite good as I understand it.

The only way JRPGs are defined is as RPGs from Japan. Otherwise I doubt you can come up with a good set of qualifiers that wont immediately be torn to ribbons.

 

[nib95]

So is Skyrim truly better than Witcher 2?

 

[Emitan]

Apparently not defined well enough. Xenoblade and Tales of Vesperia shouldn't be in the same genre as Final Fantasy.

Quake shouldn't be in the same genre as Call of Duty.

 

[HK-47]

BioWare, Black Isle, etc don't particularly matter. The genre, which is arguably the same as SRPG, began with games like Pool of Radiance which were emulating the strategy/wargame aspects of Dungeons and Dragons. (Fire Emblem is considered the beginning of the SRPG, but Pool of Radiance was a little before it and one could argue that they are in the same genre.)



It is an issue of quality vs quantity, if I am imagining why you like Skyrim so much correctly.

Except for the fact that Ultima, Wizardry and Bards Tale were also influenced by DnD

 

[Levyne]

Apparently not defined well enough. Xenoblade and Tales of Vesperia shouldn't be in the same genre as Final Fantasy.

I disagree with this. If we make the distinction between those two series and FF as different genres, do we stop there? Do we sub-divide further? Eventually you'll end up with more jars than jellybeans.

 

[Riposte]

Quake shouldn't be in the same genre as Call of Duty.

More like House of the Dead shouldn't be in the same genre as Call of Duty. That should paint the picture nicely.

Except for the fact that Ultima, Wizardry and Bards Tale were also influenced by DnD

So what?

 

[HK-47]

So is Skyrim truly better than Witcher 2?

I guess it depends on whether you like story, characters and choice over sandbox design.

 

[Crash Station]

I don't know how FF13 could be considered the worst in a generation that has Magical Starsign, Infinite Undiscovery, Sands of Destruction, Glory of Heracles, Eternal Sonata, Tales of the Tempest, Metal Saga DS, Jewel Summoner, Nostalgia, White Knight Chronicles PSP... (I feel like I could go on forever). Unless people are making sweeping generalizations about a genre that they actually have played very little from. And we all know that couldn't be the case - everybody here is an expert on the Japanese RPGs of this generation.

I like these

 

[Fjordson]

So is Skyrim truly better than Witcher 2?

I'm a sucker for an open world to explore, and Skyrim is the most interesting one yet from Bethesda, so yes (for me).

For Witcher 2, I think its melee combat is more fun than Skyrim's and it has a great central narrative.

Just depends on what you're looking for. Both are among the best RPG's I've played this gen.

 

[kunonabi]

I don't know how FF13 could be considered the worst in a generation that has Magical Starsign, Infinite Undiscovery, Sands of Destruction, Glory of Heracles, Eternal Sonata, Tales of the Tempest, Metal Saga DS, Jewel Summoner, Nostalgia, White Knight Chronicles PSP... (I feel like I could go on forever). Unless people are making sweeping generalizations about a genre that they actually have played very little from. And we all know that couldn't be the case - everybody here is an expert on the Japanese RPGs of this generation.

I'll give you that FFXIII is better than Infinite Undiscovery and probably White Knight Chronicles. I'd take the rest of that list in a heartbeat.

 

[Riposte]

The only way JRPGs are defined is as RPGs from Japan. Otherwise I doubt you can come up with a good set of qualifiers that wont immediately be torn to ribbons.

Your definition has two problems:

1) Genre shouldn't be based on region as that doesn't necessarily reflect the mechanics(what videogame genres are based on). It can be named after a region though. (Japanese-style (C)RPG).

2) RPG by itself simply doesn't mean anything. It isn't a genre. It overlaps and obscures other genres. Splitting that mess of a group by region doesn't make much sense really, especially as the other half(WRPG) has changed completely in terms of genre.

Here is a JRPG definition that is iron-clad: JRPG are games with strategy battle systems which do not have free or deep movement(unlike a SRPG/WRPG). In place of it they can have very abstracted versions of it like battle ranks or mechanics based on relational ties to enemies and allies(e.g. The Last Remnant). Given the importance of (achieving) position and movement in war-gaming and strategy games this is a significant difference. These games are Wizardry-like, Dragon Quest-like, Pokemon-like.

And I would say JRPG, SRPG, and WRPG are already sub-genres of TBS or RTS.

 

[Aeana]

I'll give you that FFXIII is better than Infinite Undiscovery and probably White Knight Chronicles. I'd take the rest of that list in a heartbeat.

Really. Well, all righty, although I'm not convinced you have actually played most of the list. Glory of Heracles DS killed my interest in video games of all kinds for almost 6 months. And Magical Starsign filled me with so much rage I couldn't think straight.

My point was really that I'm sick and tired of people acting like an authority on a genre they have very little recent experience with. It goes for both the positive and the negative. Xenoblade being "the best RPG since Chrono Trigger" raises a red flag that makes me wonder if the person has even played very many since CT. Yes, Xenoblade is good, but it isn't head-and-shoulders above everything released in the last 15 years. Not that most of the people here would know that since their experience with Japanese RPGs seems to be limited to Square Emix's output.

 

[MesserWolf]

This gen we've had a good batch of WRPG :

• Oblivion( only modded, otherwise it is pretty terrible)
• Risen
• Divinity II (very very good. I didn't expect that) <- more people need to play this
• Witcher
• Fallout (much better than oblivion in many aspects)
• Fallout NV (I'm finally playing it in these days)
• Witcher 2 (still on my todo list unfortunately ((( )
• Skyrim (I've yet to play it but seems promising)
• APha Protocol (?) (i didn't played it yet, but many say that beside some "problems" it is good)

 

[The M.O.B]

My point was really that I'm sick and tired of people acting like an authority on a genre they have very little recent experience with. It goes for both the positive and the negative. Xenoblade being "the best RPG since Chrono Trigger" raises a red flag that makes me wonder if the person has even played very many since CT. Yes, Xenoblade is good, but it isn't head-and-shoulders above everything released in the last 15 years. Not that most of the people here would know that since their experience with Japanese RPGs seems to be limited to Square Emix's output.

"You guys ain't know nothing about JRPG's, Im an expert!"

 

[BoobPhysics101]

So is Skyrim truly better than Witcher 2?

No. But they are both incredible, fantastic RPG's in their own very unique ways and stand as the pinnacle of Western RPG's this generation.

At the risk of sounding as if hyperbole leaks out of my anus, I would rank Witcher 2 and Skyrim in that God-tier of Western RPG's that consists of (imo) the following:

Baldur's Gate 2
Deus Ex
Fallout 1/2
Vampire: TM Bloodlines
Planescape: Torment

Yeah, they're that good.

 

[nib95]

I guess it depends on whether you like story, characters and choice over sandbox design.

Well, I prefer the first. I have a hard time believing Skyrim will top Witcher 2 but once I finally get stuck in I guess I can gauge it for myself.

 

[SYNTAX182]

I'll go with Dark Souls/Xenoblade. Haven't tried Skyrim, but I hated the awkward battle animations and awful presentation of Oblivion, turned me off on the series. Maybe I'll try Skyrim as a rental and see if it changes my opinion.

I'm gonna buy The Witcher 2 after I beat Xenoblade and Zelda: SS, it looks and sounds awesome from the impressions I've read.

 

[kayos90]

I feel like the way Witcher 2 plays and Skyrim plays are completely different. In all honesty, the top 3 WRPGs for me this year DS, Skyrim, and W2 all play completely different and you can't really compare them as a result.

 

[The M.O.B]

I feel like the way Witcher 2 plays and Skyrim plays are completely different. In all honesty, the top 3 WRPGs for me this year DS, Skyrim, and W2 all play completely different and you can't really compare them as a result.

Dark Souls is far from a wrpg.

 

[Jarmel]

This gen we've had a good batch of WRPG :

• Oblivion( only modded, otherwise it is pretty terrible)
• Risen
• Divinity II (very very good. I didn't expect that)
• Witcher
• Fallout (much better than oblivion in many aspects)
• Fallout NV (I'm finally playing it in these days)
• Witcher 2 (still on my todo list unfortunately ((( )
• Skyrim (I've yet to play it but seems promising)
• APha Protocol (?) (i didn't played it yet, but many say that beside some "problems" it is good)

Is there a mod that makes the Witcher's combat better? I really want to get through the game yet the combat is such a damn buzzkill.

 

[MesserWolf]

Is there a mod that makes the Witcher's combat better? I really want to get through the game yet the combat is such a damn buzzkill.

I don't know, but you get used to the combat after a while .

 

[Fjordson]

No. But they are both incredible, fantastic RPG's in their own very unique ways and stand as the pinnacle of Western RPG's this generation.

At the risk of sounding as if hyperbole leaks out of my anus, I would rank Witcher 2 and Skyrim in that God-tier of Western RPG's that consists of (imo) the following:

Baldur's Gate 2
Deus Ex
Fallout 1/2
Vampire: TM Bloodlines
Planescape: Torment

Yeah, they're that good.

I like the cut of your jib.

 

[Aeana]

"You guys ain't know nothing about JRPG's, Im an expert!"

My personal qualifications have little to do with it. Yes, I have played almost every Japanese RPG released on consoles and handhelds but whether that is true or not has little bearing on whether people making generalizations about a genre they do not have a lot of experience with is reasonable.

 

[Conrad Link]

Haven't played Skyrim so I dunno, bout that one.

But definitely agree with Xenoblade. Easily my fav JRPG in ages. Such a wonderful game! <3 One of my fav games this gen overall even. I also like DSs too!

And Borderlands! Wooo! lol forgot the FPRPS! Can't wait for the sequel.

 

[hteng]

Your definition has two problems:

1) Genre shouldn't be based on region as that doesn't necessarily reflect the mechanics(what videogame genres are based on). It can be named after a region though. (Japanese-style (C)RPG).

2) RPG by itself simply doesn't mean anything. It isn't a genre. It overlaps and obscures other genres. Splitting that mess of a group by region doesn't make much sense really, especially as the other half(WRPG) has changed completely in terms of genre.

Here is a JRPG definition that is iron-clad: JRPG are games with strategy battle systems which do not have free or deep movement(unlike a SRPG/WRPG). In place of it they can have very abstracted versions of it like battle ranks or mechanics based on relational ties to enemies and allies(e.g. The Last Remnant). Given the importance of (achieving) position and movement in war-gaming and strategy games this is a significant difference. These games are Wizardry-like, Dragon Quest-like, Pokemon-like.

And I would say JRPG, SRPG, and WRPG are already sub-genres of TBS or RTS.

this is unnecessarily complicating things, it's an RPG, there will be levels, HP/MP, skills, loot, combat, magic, story, role playing. done, fullstop. no need to delve into detail mechanics that are just variations/spinoffs of the above mentioned.

 

[Levyne]

My personal qualifications have little to do with it. Yes, I have played almost every Japanese RPG released on consoles but whether that is true or not has little bearing on whether people making generalizations about a genre they do not have a lot of experience with is reasonable.

I remember seeing your list in one topic.

Still think this is kinda harsh

Not that most of the people here would know that since their experience with Japanese RPGs seems to be limited to Square Emix's output.

I mean, GAF introduced me to Persona series (tried 3 FES, hated it), tri-Ace games (mostly good, SO4 is bad), Valkyria Chronicles (Liked), Xenoblade, the Mistwalker games (LO/Blue dragon.) I know that list is still relatively major JRPG series/publishers (I have never tried YS, Suikoden, Ar Tonelico, etc), but still lots of variety here.

Edit: Add Baten Kaitos. Might think of more

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

Haven't tried Xenoblade yet (No thanks to NoA), but I will say:

Skyrim = Best WRPG
Dark Souls = Best W...um...JRPG!

 

[Aeana]

I remember seeing your list in one topic.

Still think this is kinda harsh



I mean, GAF introduced me to Persona series (tried 3 FES, hated it), tri-Ace games (mostly good, SO4 is bad), Valkyria Chronicles (Liked), Xenoblade, the Mistwalker games (LO/Blue dragon.) I know that list is still relatively major JRPG series/publishers (I have never tried YS, Suikoden, Ar Tonelico, etc), but still lots of variety here.

It is a bit harsh, but I would put forth that a lot of the really vocal people about the decline of Japanese RPGs are not necessarily the same people who sold you on those games.

 

[Throavium]

Xenoblade is developed on last gen hardware though.

thatsthejoke.jpg

 

[Orayn]

this is unnecessarily complicating things, it's an RPG, there will be levels, HP/MP, skills, loot, combat, magic, story, role playing. done, fullstop. no need to delve into detail mechanics that are just variations/spinoffs of the above mentioned.

See, the problem is that those exact mechanics can be found in lots and lots of "non-RPG" games. If you try to make it all about them, you just start list-wars about how many are needed for true a game to the a real RPG, which can be absent without making a game part of some other genre, whether or not the presence of certain mechanics is an automatic disqualifier, etc.

You can't boil down the definition to something short and simple because we can't even reach a consensus on that.

 

[Riposte]

this is unnecessarily complicating things, it's an RPG, there will be levels, HP/MP, skills, loot, combat, magic, story, role playing. done, fullstop. no need to delve into detail mechanics that are just variations/spinoffs of the above mentioned.

Hilarious lol.

Your arbitrary list is useless. Simply consider how all of these could fit into any kind of game, from FPS to TBS to racing despite the major differences between these games. Some of them are even completely aesthetically. Might be fine for you if you don't want to understand anything and just read the back of the box.

 

[Coxswain]

Here is a JRPG definition that is iron-clad: JRPG are games with strategy battle systems which do not have free or deep movement(unlike a SRPG/WRPG). In place of it they can have very abstracted versions of it like battle ranks or mechanics based on relational ties to enemies and allies(e.g. The Last Remnant). Given the importance of (achieving) position and movement in war-gaming and strategy games this is a significant difference. These games are Wizardry-like, Dragon Quest-like, Pokemon-like.

This isn't iron-clad at all. There are games where this definition becomes muddled and confused, as you transition from games that have 'free and deep movement' to games that have 'limited and shallow movement' to games that have no movement at all.

The only definition that works is 'JRPGs are RPGs that are made in Japan'. It's not a defined genre based on mechanics; it's a term of convenience that can sometimes (but not always!) help you make reasonable and convenient generalizations about the games that fit into either category.
It's like how we have quantum physics, classical mechanics, and chemistry. They all just describe "physics", and there's no definitive boundary where one ends and the other begins, but it's still immensely useful to have each classification, even if they don't always describe completely different things.

 

[Orayn]

This isn't iron-clad at all. There are games where this definition becomes muddled and confused, as you transition from games that have 'free and deep movement' to games that have 'limited and shallow movement' to games that have no movement at all.

The only definition that works is 'JRPGs are RPGs that are made in Japan'. It's not a defined genre based on mechanics; it's a term of convenience that can sometimes (but not always!) help you make reasonable and convenient generalizations about the games that fit into either category.
It's like how we have quantum physics, classical mechanics, and chemistry. They all just describe "physics", and there's no definitive boundary where one ends and the other begins, but it's still immensely useful to have each classification, even if they don't always describe completely different things.

Said definition also explodes into a million pieces as soon as you introduce the Tales series for Chrissakes.

 

[Riposte]

This isn't iron-clad at all. There are games where this definition becomes muddled and confused, as you transition from games that have 'free and deep movement' to games that have 'limited and shallow movement' to games that have no movement at all.

Very few games and I never said it wasn't a spectrum. A game is only in the grey area when there is free movement, but it doesn't have much strategic significance(maybe aside from kiting). FFXII for example. (I am not ready to call FFXII a JRPG or not a JRPG yet. Comparisons to MMORPGs also makes it something else.)

Another way to look at it is that people are incorrectly labeling SRPGs and other genres.

EDIT: On the matter, do you think rail shooters and FPS games have this issue?

The only definition that works is 'JRPGs are RPGs that are made in Japan'. It's not a defined genre based on mechanics; it's a term of convenience that can sometimes (but not always!) help you make reasonable and convenient generalizations about the games that fit into either category.

Then it simply isn't a genre.

The generalizations are mostly useless because they lead to comparisons between Final Fantasy and Dark Souls.

Said definition also explodes into a million pieces as soon as you introduce the Tales series for Chrissakes.

Why exactly? (EDIT: It should be noteworthy that the Tales series has like two genres under its belt.)

 

[Haunted]

Witcher 2 and The Last Remnant for followups.

Dark Souls is a damn fine ARPG/WRPG made in Japan.


edit: and I'll refrain from commenting on the genre debate (yet again), but "country of origin" is a pretty useless category as far as genres are concerned.