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[MaddenNFL64]

GAF has a few game industry folk, who I guess aren't all Cliffy B, so I thought i'd pose it here.

And I don't mean the ESA, or the GDC, or the IGDA etc. I mean a fucking workers union to collectively have power, and bargain with the companies you work for.

So, whats up? You feel like the industry as whole is built to test a strike, and just move labor to india/china? Is that the fear? Or is the average payscale feel like solid reimbursement for your skill level & time?

Just a curious laymen. The game industry is pretty damn young, so that may be why it doesn't have a SAG, or writers guild, or whatever yet. Is one planned?

 

[Mario]

Everybody is doing too much overtime to be able to organise a union.

 

[myDingling]

Everybody is doing too much overtime to be able to organise a union.

this

I mean you can't beat job perks like sitting on your ass for 80 hr work weeks and getting stuffed with pizza and donuts while not having to be exposed to the sun for week's at a time.

 

[usea]

Why?

People are (in general) happy. They could make more money in other fields, but choose games because of passions. There are more opportunities in the industry than ever; you can simply make a small 3-man company and be successful if you desire. Games are spreading everywhere. You don't have to work for a big publisher making AAA games if you don't want. GAF just likes to think that's all there is to the industry.

 

[TestMonkey]

Everybody is doing too much overtime to be able to organise a union.

Even we lowly testers find it hard to complain too much because of this. 100 hour weeks with California OT laws are awesome even when you're on the lower end of the scale. The day management whispers the words "exempt salary" shit will get real though.

 

[Warm Machine]

Yeah, I think the core of it is most people are in it because it is a passion of theirs.

I wouldn't bother working for a game company if they were unionized.

The biggest benefit however would be to standardize how credit is given on a completed game, just like in movies.

 

[jamesinclair]

Because the modern american worker is more than willing to let the big corporation stick it to them.


You're absolutely right, the videogame industry treats the employees like crap and a union would help. It would at least prevent the "you've been fired and you find out because your keycard no longer works" incidents.

 

[_Bro]

Why?

People are (in general) happy. They could make more money in other fields, but choose games because of passions. There are more opportunities in the industry than ever; you can simply make a small 3-man company and be successful if you desire. Games are spreading everywhere. You don't have to work for a big publisher making AAA games if you don't want. GAF just likes to think that's all there is to the industry.

Really? I think working more than 40 hours a week would suck ass. Didn't Gabe even talk about how this isn't a good thing, and it wasn't that they were happy about working on it but simply deadlines being intimidating?

Every time I hear something about the game industry I hear people bitching about how it sucks. Lots of work fueled by passion with little payoff and a product that is really in control of the publisher.

I mean, isn't the reason why half these people stay with these jobs is to get to something better? That's been my impression, anyways. Just constantly trying to get the better job.

 

[davepoobond]

i think its got more to do with unions being a relic of the past where jobs were pretty terrible. but many of the things unions fought for are now law. game industry is relatively new, so they haven't really seen a need for a union.

unions are just lobbyists, at the end of the day.


guilds are also only usually for freelancers, and gaming industry isnt a freelancer industry per se. yes, there are freelancers, but not on the scale of hollywood, where practically everyone is a freelancer.

 

[SirIgbyCeaser]

There is no game development cycle that would survive a union discussion.

Multiple projects throughout the united states would have to strong arm the publishers to be heard.

They'd all have to get on the same page, and meet.

It would probably only take one big company to start a third party union(Like an EA/Activision Blizzard)

But they're too busy like the first post said.

 

[usea]

Really? I think working more than 40 hours a week would suck ass. Didn't Gabe even talk about how this isn't a good thing, and it wasn't that they were happy about working on it but simply deadlines being intimidating?

Every time I hear something about the game industry I hear people bitching about how it sucks. Lots of work fueled by passion with little payoff and a product that is really in control of the publisher.

I mean, isn't the reason why half these people stay with these jobs is to get to something better? That's been my impression, anyways. Just constantly trying to get the better job.

Not all companies work employees over 40 hours. Often it's optional and employees come in because they're passionate about their work. Of course not all companies are fortunate enough to be working on titles they can be passionate about.

But really, while shitty situations happen sometimes they're not the rule.

 

[MrHicks]

how is working more then 40 hours even LEGAL?
don't they have laws for that?

 

[Drkirby]

You get paid over time for working over 40 hours a week. Unless you are on Salary, then you are likely screwed by something in your contract.

 

[Thagomizer]

how is working more then 40 hours even LEGAL?
don't they have laws for that?

Europe, right?

 

[beat]

I'd put it down to this: game industry workers are largely happier to be crunched to death than other fields' programmers and artists and otherwise exploited. I don't know why.

They could make more money in other fields, but choose games because of passions.

People work in Hollywood and some of them are following their passion and they're making more money and have unions that clamp down on truly abusive working practices. I don't think I buy the passion argument.

guilds are also only usually for freelancers, and gaming industry isnt a freelancer industry per se. yes, there are freelancers, but not on the scale of hollywood, where practically everyone is a freelancer.

OK, fair enough. But one possible future for game development is the (current) Hollywood model. The more we standardize on tools and processes, the less ramping up time is lost with new hires. Studios are already finding it difficult to carry a lot of full timers between projects, so between those factors we may be moving towards a heavily freelancer-based industry already: cost of mostly contractor-based workers goes down, effective cost of having mostly salaried workers goes up.

 

[Warm Machine]

The industry doesn't need a union. It needs production staff that know what game it is they are making and project greenlighting based of more than just high level ideas.

Once that happens the amount of people and time required to make a game will drop drammatically. As it is most games are made 3 times over, at 3 times the cost, before you get to play them.

 

[MrHicks]

Europe, right?

yea

 

[Jackson]

You get paid over time for working over 40 hours a week. Unless you are on Salary, then you are likely screwed by something in your contract.

Overtime pay only legally works for manual labor (in the US). Desk jobs don't get this benefit. There might be state that does do this, but I don't think so.

It would probably only take one big company to start a third party union(Like an EA/Activision Blizzard)

EA and ATVI are the reason why people want unions.

The industry doesn't need a union. It needs publishers that know what game it is they are making and project greenlighting based of more than just high level ideas.

Fixed.

 

[vireland]

The industry doesn't need a union. It needs production staff that know what game it is they are making and project greenlighting based of more than just high level ideas.

Once that happens the amount of people and time required to make a game will drop drammatically. As it is most games are made 3 times over, at 3 times the cost, before you get to play them.

Mmmm, maybe in some cases, but by and large, games are art, and art is a moving target. Worse yet, games are INTERACTIVE art, which involves subjective things like feel more than other mediums. They're not like movies, TV, or music because of that alone, and so the production metrics for those don't really work well (unless you want crappy cookie-cutter games). Yes, there are SOME really messed up production teams, producers, directors, etc, and sure, games in general could be done more efficiently, but some of that tearing down and rebuilding is in pursuit of a better experience.

Occasionally they actually hit the target.

 

[Duffyside]

how is working more then 40 hours even LEGAL?
don't they have laws for that?

As a man who hasn't worked less than 40 hours a week in at least 5 years, and worked 6 days a week for 6 months straight, I can say, thankfully; "No, we don't."

 

[cpp_is_king]

Speaking as a programmer:

I wouldn't join a union even if I had the opportunity to. I fucking hate them on principle, but beside that, companies incentivize you in plenty of ways to work those extra hours.

In any case, the place I'm at now we don't work more than a 40 hours a week. Granted, our project is not in that final push, but when it is, I have plenty of "benefits" and "perks" that I would not otherwise have if we were unionized. Some financial, some not.

There's already way too many fucking people who want into the industry, so think of it as supply and demand. You want to be in a union? Screw you, we'll hire someone else. Of course it's not exactly that, but due to the same principle it would just never work because there are more than enough people who aren't interested in unionizing.

As for the payscale, it's honestly pretty terrible at the entry level (which is where the vast majority of supply is), but once you move up into the senior levels it's actually quite competitive with other industries.

 

[graywolf323]

OP you do realize that very few private sector employees are in a union anymore? I think the latest stat was 7%

not everything needs to be unionized and sometimes the only one that benefits is the union itself

 

[noonche]

I think the company I work for treats me quite well. Having a union would just cock things up with dues, meetings and bullshit that isn't going to make my job better or easier.

 

[Tacitus_]

Europe, right?

Here you can only do 250 hours of overtime per calendar year, with a limit of max 138 hours in a continuing 4 month period. There were some additional rules but I can't remember then at the moment.

 

[Lonely1]

OP you do realize that very few private sector employees are in a union anymore? I think the latest stat was 7%

 

[cpp_is_king]

Also, again speaking as a programmer, alot of these people, think about what they're going to do after they get off work: They're going to go home to their single life, turn on their playstation, play some video games, do some hacking / programming on their computers, and go to sleep. They may or may not think about how it sucks that they don't get out more and have more friends.

They're already doing that at work, and getting free meals in the process. Many (but obviously not all) of these people don't have much of a social life, and work is where most of their "friends" are, so it's really not all that bad being at work.

 

[C-Jo]

I'm in game design school, and I work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. Going back to 40 hour weeks on a regular basis would seem crazy and weird.

 

[low-G]

It seems to me that the mindset of the kind of person that becomes a programmer and works in the gaming industry is not the sort that has a problem with the way the industry is now.

I hear the occasional comment like 'it's really busy' or 'I work 14 hours a day, 7 days a week, for 4 weeks straight in crunch time' but I don't actually hear complaints.

*that popeye video someone posted earlier with a bird singing 'leave well enough alone'*

 

[jorma]

how is working more then 40 hours even LEGAL?
don't they have laws for that?

wat? In what eu country is a 40 hour workweek the legal max? In Sweden there are no laws regulating OT, its strictly a employer - union negotiation. During a 5 month period i had 150 hours OT last year, and then the union gave me exemption for 50 more hours before they said "no more OT for jorma during 2010". It worked out rather well for me since i got twice the salary and the work consisted of me monitoring some batchjobs while playing MAG.

Swedish OT <3

 

[soultron]

Too many people (all over the world) want in.

 

[MrHicks]

I'm in game design school, and I work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. Going back to 40 hour weeks on a regular basis would seem crazy and weird.

how do you have time left to enjoy life at that point???

don't live to work dude

 

[soultron]

how do you have time left to enjoy life at that point???

don't live to work dude

More importantly: is that 12 hours a day school work or paid work? If it's paid work I'm wondering when and where you're finding time to do your school work.

 

[Morn]

They can unionize the gaming idustry. Just don't complain about $100 games then.

 

[Jackson]

They can unionize the gaming idustry. Just don't complain about $100 games then.

With 7 year dev times.

 

[Dachande]

Too many developers (mostly Americans it seems) think unions are the devil for some reason, while on the other hand moaning about forced unpaid overtime due to poor scheduling, and greasy, unhealthy meals that are suddenly okay because they're free.

I'd love to join a games industry union so my rights are protected but one simply doesn't exist. The best available is perhaps BECTU, but it may not be worth it as its range is too broad.

 

[Tim the Wiz]

GAF has a few game industry folk, who I guess aren't all Cliffy B, so I thought i'd pose it here.

I don't know, man. You sure about that?

 

[troushers]

ITT nobody thinks they need a union until they suddenly need a union. If it would prevent the abuses that happen all the time and occasionally are reported (RockStar, EA Spouse), then it would be worth it.

 

[Morn]

Wait. A union wouldn't work in the industry. A producer couldn't do their job. Union rules would cripple any studio when trying to assign resources like programmers.

A 7 year Dev cycle would be the minimum.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Too many developers (mostly Americans it seems) think unions are the devil for some reason, while on the other hand moaning about forced unpaid overtime due to poor scheduling, and greasy, unhealthy meals that are suddenly okay because they're free.

I think you're just making things up. The people that complain find jobs in other industries, and where do you get the impression that the food is always greasy and unhealthy, or even that everyone has a problem with greasy food? Don't you think that's a bit of a broad generalization?

 

[soultron]

ITT nobody thinks they need a union until they suddenly need a union. If it would prevent the abuses that happen all the time and occasionally are reported (RockStar, EA Spouse), then it would be worth it.

There are thousands of people in line waiting to take the abuse though. Lots of fresh faced kids won't even know they're being "abused" because they have no previous experience to compare things to. If they choose to complain, they'd better remain anonymous as well -- public whistleblowing (like the RDR environmental artist) is basically career suicide.

 

[Morn]

ITT nobody thinks they need a union until they suddenly need a union. If it would prevent the abuses that happen all the time and occasionally are reported (RockStar, EA Spouse), then it would be worth it.

ITT people living in reality and not the wet dream of a political science teacher.

If people don't want to work the hours the gaming industry asks, the door is right over there. There's a hundred other people who will take their place.

 

[beat]

Overtime pay only legally works for manual labor (in the US). Desk jobs don't get this benefit. There might be state that does do this, but I don't think so.

California did, at least for some few years. At least, I think so because I was working for a studio owned by a big publisher and in 2007 we non-management types were reclassified to be paid hourly, and if we worked more than 40 hours/week we were paid OT. (This was after Activision and EA settled a couple of class action suits, and post EA Spouse.)

but some of that tearing down and rebuilding is in pursuit of a better experience.

My experience has mostly been that in places without crunch protections such as OT pay, clueless execs with no vision of their own feel free to impose 'death march' crunch because they don't know what they want, they only know what they don't want.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

how is working more then 40 hours even LEGAL?
don't they have laws for that?

Of course not.

We don't have socialism here.

If those bums want to feed their kids off of minimum wage they'll have to work two full time jobs at least.

 

[C-Jo]

More importantly: is that 12 hours a day school work or paid work? If it's paid work I'm wondering when and where you're finding time to do your school work.

That's 12 hours a day (at least) at school, working on our game. Been that way for a while now.

 

[Dachande]

Wait. A union wouldn't work in the industry. A producer couldn't do their job. Union rules would cripple any studio when trying to assign resources like programmers.

A 7 year Dev cycle would be the minimum.

Producers would be forced to do their jobs properly, and plan and schedule appropriately, rather than throwing something together in Project that pleases the publisher and then throwing their hands up and going "welp" when-- surprise, surprise-- it doesn't work and everyone needs to go into crunch to deliver what was promised.

"Union rules" aren't some stock rules taken from a Everything You Need For A Union book and applied to everything. Rules are created to fit the need. Unions don't necessarily have to determine things like hiring rates. There are many types of union that work in many different ways.

I think you're just making things up. The people that complain find jobs in other industries, and where do you get the impression that the food is always greasy and unhealthy, or even that everyone has a problem with greasy food? Don't you think that's a bit of a broad generalization?

I'm anecdotally going by discussions I've had with other developers on other forums. The overwhelming amount of people against them tended to be American developers who believed that unions were bad things. Most Europeans like myself were interested in the idea.

The free food for staying late and not having a life is almost always takeaways and/or microwave meals from a supermarket. These are almost always unhealthy and nutritionally deficient and you shouldn't be eating it every day as most people do during crunch. Are you happy eating that every day? I love pizza and typically unhealthy food but I know it's bad for me regardless of whether it costs me nothing. Of course there are exceptions to nothing but takeaway/microwave meals, but I've never heard of any in the games industry and I know for a fact that in most cases it's not.

I'd be interested to hear what benefits and perks you receive that you believe you wouldn't if you were in a union. I certainly don't have any, and I don't see why you wouldn't get them otherwise.

 

[Duffyside]

Too many developers (mostly Americans it seems) think unions are the devil for some reason, while on the other hand moaning about forced unpaid overtime due to poor scheduling, and greasy, unhealthy meals that are suddenly okay because they're free.

I'd love to join a games industry union so my rights are protected but one simply doesn't exist. The best available is perhaps BECTU, but it may not be worth it as its range is too broad.

What is "forced unpaid overtime?" Are there rules against quitting? You don't want to work the hours asked of you, then don't. If you're valuable to the employer, they'll find a way to entice you. If you're not, they'll find someone who can do the job as well/better for the same/less pay.

 

[jorma]

Wait. A union wouldn't work in the industry. A producer couldn't do their job. Union rules would cripple any studio when trying to assign resources like programmers.

A 7 year Dev cycle would be the minimum.

Oh come on. If the movie industry can work with the unions, so can the gaming industry. The unions are there to protect the interest of the employees, it's reasonable to assume that completely crippling their employers is not in their interest.

What is "forced unpaid overtime?" Are there rules against quitting? You don't want to work the hours asked of you, then don't. If you're valuable to the employer, they'll find a way to entice you. If you're not, they'll find someone who can do the job as well/better for the same/less pay.

Sigh. Quitting is the only weapon a single employer has without the backing of a union. Most emploees just cannot utilize that weapon because they have a family to feed, and their employers knows that. That means you have zero recourse unless you can handle unemployment until you get a new job, a new job that is very likely practicing the same shit that made you quit to begin with.

 

[alstein]

ITT people living in reality and not the wet dream of a political science teacher.

If people don't want to work the hours the gaming industry asks, the door is right over there. There's a hundred other people who will take their place.

That's the real reason. This gives the publishers/megacorps a ton of power.

It's the direction the world is heading, unfortunately. Just look at all the anti-union posts in this thread, and it's not in the class interest of most posters here to be anti-union.

BTW the 7 year dev cycle and other stuff mentioned is scare tactic boogeyman stuff. The $100 game cost is determined by demand, not employee cost, so that's a boogeyman also, and bad economics.

What you're starting to see though in response to this, is that many of the most talented folks are realizing that they'll be happier/healthier/richer not working for the big companies- and this is why we're seeing more indie projects these days.

Direct download is opening up that avenue- and we're going to be seeing a bit of a brain drain for many publishers (though not the ones that treat employees right, such as Valve and Stardock), as the most talented folks get fed up. The problem with this is that it is going to punish the technically sound developers who don't have good entrepreneurial skill.

It does mean we're going to get a bunch of awesome indie games though.

 

[vareon]

I work in a new development studio, we work from 8 AM to 7 PM each Monday to Friday, and 8 AM to 12 each Saturday. Sometimes when the deadline is tight we work till 10 PM.

However we're a small development company as of now, we're completely fine the way they are and most people here haven't had any family to start yet so nobody complains. "Working" doesn't mean sitting behind desk for 10 straight hours too. Just sharing.

 

[jorma]

btw, i read somewhere that only 3% of EA employees were unionised globally. Apparently every single one of them worked at DICE.

I guess this means BF3 will be delayed for another couple of years...