• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

So... rumored Live crossgame chat/invite patent and PSN

why don't more people prefer text chat btw? i don't get it. it's much better for me at least. (of course a keyboard or keypad is a must)

mainly for these reasons:

- i don't have to listen to a bunch of people talking over my single player game's music/dialogue
- i can leave my console and come back in 30min and still see what people have talked about
 

M.D

Member
At this point, the story behind why we don't have Cross-Game-Chat is more interesting than the feature itself

Keighley, get to work!
 

Man

Member
astroturfing said:
why don't more people prefer text chat btw? i don't get it. it's much better for me at least. (of course a keyboard or keypad is a must)
When we all have LCD controllers next gen this will be more viable.
 
astroturfing said:
why don't more people prefer text chat btw? i don't get it. it's much better for me at least. (of course a keyboard or keypad is a must)

mainly for these reasons:

- i don't have to listen to a bunch of people talking over my single player game's music/dialogue
- i can leave my console and come back in 30min and still see what people have talked about

In some cases, text-chat is more convenient, sure.
But it's also much slower.

If you quickly want to get together and set up a game, group voice chat is so much better.
Also, I don't mind hearing my buddies in one ear while the dialogue/music of cutscenes play in a co-op game. I like hearing their reaction to it, and discussing it. It's a shared experience, ultimately.
 

sajj316

Member
At this point in the system's life, does it matter anymore? If Sony is ever going to implement this feature, it will be on the next PlayStation.
 

Deadly Cyclone

Pride of Iowa State
Bold statement: Sony is completely stupid for not having cross game and private chat 5 years into their console cycle.

This is one of the sole reasons I buy more on 360 (that, and the controller).
 
sajj316 said:
At this point in the system's life, does it matter anymore? If Sony is ever going to implement this feature, it will be on the next PlayStation.

Well, I see myself playing PS3 games online with friends for at least 2 or 3 more years, so yeah. It still matters to me.
 

btkadams

Member
sajj316 said:
At this point in the system's life, does it matter anymore? If Sony is ever going to implement this feature, it will be on the next PlayStation.
this is how i feel. it's a great feature, but we've gone so long on ps3 without it that i'm just accepting it's not coming to ps3. i still have some fight left in me for BC though.
 

sajj316

Member
magicaltrevor said:
Well, I see myself playing PS3 games online with friends for at least 2 or 3 more years, so yeah. It still matters to me.

My point is that it's been almost 6 years since the release of the PS3. That's almost 6 years worth of games to back test. I'd be content with maybe offering the functionality to new games going forward since we do have another 2 to 3 years left in the tank.

This, like most features offered by Sony .. will leave the selection of games fragmented. I applaud MS for having these features from the beginning.
 
sajj316 said:
My point is that it's been almost 6 years since the release of the PS3. That's almost 6 years worth of games to back test. I'd be content with maybe offering the functionality to new games going forward since we do have another 2 to 3 years left in the tank.

I would be fine with that. And if developers would want to patch support for the feature into their old games, then awesome.
 

Salaadin

Member
The funny thing about this for me is that I bought an Xbox 360 wireless headset specifically so I could join my friends on chat...even while I play PS3 or PC games. Ive come to terms with the fact that it is not and wont ever be a PS3 feature.

I really wish MS would open up their Xbox 360 voice chat stuff to PC. Id love to be able to use any mic I wish and not have to run my console just for voice chat since I do most of my gaming on PC these days.
 

Baha

Member
Salaadin said:
The funny thing about this for me is that I bought an Xbox 360 wireless headset specifically so I could join my friends on chat...even while I play PS3 or PC games. Ive come to terms with the fact that it is not and wont ever be a PS3 feature.

I really wish MS would open up their Xbox 360 voice chat stuff to PC. Id love to be able to use any mic I wish and not have to run my console just for voice chat since I do most of my gaming on PC these days.

Wait what? Why not use ventrilo or mumble for voice chat on PC instead of your 360?
 

Zoe

Member
heyf00L said:
Can't be a patent because, uh, PCs have it too. It's a pretty neat feature.

I believe type of platform matters. Microsoft's patent specifies "game console."
 
M.D said:
At this point, the story behind why we don't have Cross-Game-Chat is more interesting than the feature itself


http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-08-19-why-the-ps3-cant-do-cross-game-voice-chat

Cross-game voice chat is not possible on the PlayStation 3 because of memory restrictions, Sony has revealed.

The PS3's RAM is gobbled up by the games it runs, which prevents the much-desired feature from being implemented, Sony Worldwide Studios president Shuhei Yoshida told Eurogamer.

"Once a game gets RAM we never give it back," he said. "It's not possible to retrofit something like that after the fact."

As revealed by Eurogamer yesterday, PS Vita, due out in Europe early next year, actually has more RAM than the PS3.

Vita has 512MB of RAM and 128MB of V-RAM, compared to the PS3's 256MB of system RAM and 256MB of video RAM. This enables features such as cross-game voice chat to run in the background while games are being played.

On the PS3, however, things are different.

"The game has to use its own memory to do [in-game voice chat]. There's always voice chat in the game. But it's a part of a game feature. It's not a part of an OS feature. That's the reason in terms of the ability to have voice chat across different games."

So, voice chat is better on Vita than PS3?

"We totally agree!" Yoshida replied.

And posted in this board by I believe a Sony insider "Super_secret":

http://forums.n4g.com/Cross-game-chat-and-why-its-currently-MIA-m700070.aspx

I promised you all an update on Cross-Game chat, so here it is.

And you're not going to like it.


As I told you before, Cross-game voice chat has been in the works for a while now. I mentioned last time that it was on target for 3.0 providing that we didn't hit any snags. Well guess what, we hit a snag! An all too familiar snag.

Time for a history lesson.

How many of you remember what it was like before FW 2.4? That's right - no in-game XMB. No custom soundtracks. In-game XMB was the most heavily requested feature at the time and we worked tirelessly in order to get it in (By "we", I mean Sony Japan - as I said before, FW isn't my department). It very nearly didn't happen, you have no idea how difficult it is to backport a feature like that onto a system (the game) that doesn't even know its there, but somehow we managed it. Well, for most titles. There are still the odd few titles out there that don't support in-game XMB ("black" titles).
Custom soundtracks was another one we had working in nearly every title. Obviously it was never going to work in black titles, but about 95% of the titles that worked well with the in-game XMB, had custom sountracks working as well.

So what happened? Why is it that titles HAVE to be developed specifically with custom soundtrack support when it was working more or less just fine?

Is it because Microsoft owns the patent on custom soundtracks in games?

This is something that makes me laugh every time I see one of the less educated ones spouting it off. That's an absolute fabrication. Patents don't matter, Sony as a while infringes upon thousands of patents through the whole company, both hardware and software. If you infringe a patent, you pay royalties to the owner or find a different way of doing the same thing that doesn't infringe. That's it. Microsoft infringes upon all kinds of patents we own but that's up to legal to sort out.

No, the reason we had to drop Custom soundtrack support like that has nothing to do with Microsoft. It does, however, involve a different company. A rather large company.
You see, one of their games happened to fall into the 5% that didn't support in-game custom soundtracks. And they did not like this.
When they found out that a new firmware update was going to suddenly make one of their games look inferior to just about every other game released, they protested. A lot.
They threatened everything, from legal action to dropping support for the PS3 all together.

What could we do? There was almost no way of getting it to work correctly due to the way their game was made (i.e. Poorly) and we certainly couldn't leave a broken implementation in there. That's when the hard decision was made to remove all support for older titles and instead adopt the "opt-in" approach that, to this day, most developers simply ignore. I have to hand this to Microsoft - they did their system right from the beginning and by completely separating it from the developers, they have universal support. Its very unlikely that you'll ever see mandatory support for custom soundtracks in games on our system, I'm afraid.
So yeah, lets nail this on the head: The next time someone starts blaming Microsoft for something the PS3 doesn't have, tell them they're an idiot, they don't know what they're talking about. Are we clear on this? This is a pet peeve of mine because while everyone's happy to go around blaming Microsoft, the real culprits are getting off scott-free. Of course, I can't actually name them directly or, should I get caught, I might even get done for slander (you can never be too careful), but you can figure it out - it's not Activision and they have a poor history with the PS3.

So what has this got to do with Cross-game voice chat?

Guess.

I warned you that we might hit a snag and we did. We've found a couple of titles that just don't like it. Similar to the custom soundtrack fiasco, it can cause lag, crashes, desyncronisation (very very bad when this happens), you name it. It can't be used in these games and it just so happens that some of these games are owned by the same company I've been talking about above.
So we're in a predicament: Cross-game chat is useless if only certain games support it. It's not too bad if its just the odd one that doesn't like it, but at this rate we'd have to drop support for the ENTIRE back catalogue, which would (As I said) make the whole thing useless.
Furthermore, we can't rely on developers to implement direct support for it. It didn't work with Custom Soundtracks, so why would it work here?
So right now, we're trying every little trick in the book to find a solution that works for everyone, but don't hold your breath on this one, so far it looks like the best you're going to get is a gimped implementation of it that only works with a handful of new games.

Now as I said, FW isn't actually my department and even I'm not supposed to know some of this stuff, but this is actually where we are right now. It sucks majorly, but there you have it. Depending on the end result, it could come in FW 3.1 or it could come in FW 4.0, hell it might not even come at all but rest assured they are working very hard on it. And if it doesn't come, you know who to blame.

http://www.pulseaudio.org/wiki/AboutPulseAudio#Features

300px-Pulseaudio-diagram.svg.png


PulseAudio is the next generation system for Linux-based operating systems. It allows advanced operations on sound data as it is passed between applications and system hardware, such as on-the-fly redirection of audio output from speakers to a bluetooth headset, smart audio volume management, sample format or channel count conversion and combination of several sounds into one, are all easily achieved using PulseAudio.

With today's focus on convergence devices, where mobile phones, gaming consoles, media servers, media center solutions and similar all seem to merge together, having an advanced high quality audio system is critical in order to launching a successful product.

PulseAudio is a sound system for POSIX OSes, meaning that it is a proxy for your sound applications. It allows you to do advanced operations on your sound data as it passes between your application and your hardware. Things like transferring the audio to a different machine, changing the sample format or channel count and mixing several sounds into one are easily achieved using a sound server.

PulseAudio is designed for Linux systems. It has also been ported to and tested on Solaris, FreeBSD, NetBSD, MacOS X, Windows 2000 and Windows XP.
Echo cancellation for pulse audio is a module that is only loaded if a mic and chat is enabled. That was just released for pulse audio and Sony probably had to wait for this last piece to confirm "Xgame chat" from the XMB couldn't be shoehorned into the PS3 game side.

Firmware 3.0 had the massive XMB overhaul that looks like it used Cairo for rendering and possibly (no proof of this) gstreamer and pulse audio. CairoGL SVG would have reduced the size of the OS and gstreamer & pulse audio go together with the whole package (Cairo, gstreamer core and pulse audio) necessary to support the coming GTKwebkit and this is 2009 when the Marlin DRM gstreamer player was released and it was supposed to work on the PS3 (Marlin gstreamer player required the gstreamer AV core). He mentions 4.0 which I'm assuming is the release version for webkit using the above tools. Pulse audio is not mentioned in the Sony GTKwebkit LGPL disclosure but pulse audio is used in handhelds (Vita) to save battery power and is part of Gnome 3.2 desktop (for echo cancellation) which has GTKwebkit as the default browser.

*************

These version numbers mentioned by Super_secret from 3.0 to 4.0 fit with the major PS3 OS changes to support the coming GTKwebkit and as I've speculated a browser based XMB similar in idea to Gnome 3.2 desktop shell. (Both use the same support libraries and GTKwebkit.) PS3 Firmware 3.5 (September 28th 2010) contained a webcore Javascript engine which requires CairoGL for rendering. March 2011 Sony disclosed GTKwebkit LGPL. Support libraries are integrated with the PS3 OS first and fine tuned then webkit core and last the finished SVG UI for the XMB browser desktop. Pixel based icons & text are replaced with SVG icons and text (no way to tell if this is already partially done especially for game side).

************

So up to the wire (4.0) with 3.7 and they couldn't get it to work. Issues with real world input of audio or video have the PS3 SPU waiting on input and wasting job time (2X audio channel bandwidth, say 3Khz equals 6khz and the SPU operates at 3+ Ghz). So RAM buffers are used to store enough audio to have the SPU time used efficiently. As you try to have the SPU tasked with audio to do more, more buffer is needed which requires more ram. Up the # of audio channels to include several IP audio streams from other PS3s or Vita for chat and more memory is needed. Try to reduce buffer memory used and you get something like the complaints of audio using blutooth microphones breaking up while in game after firmware 3.7.

Edit: Pulse Audio and Gstreamer have not been disclosed by Sony for PS3 and Vita (5/2012). OpenMax IL provides a core including Codecs that is similar in design to the Gstreamer Core. A mixer/redirector similar to Pulse Audio was installed in the PS3 with Firmware 3.7.
 
Top Bottom