Donkey Kong Country says hi.
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So...why did the Game Boy Advance only have 2 face buttons?
- Thread starter serplux
- Start date
Donkey Kong Country says hi.
But the hardware will always be a compromised Rube Goldberg machine abomination, such as the 3DS and Vita. That impacts the enjoyability of a game.
It doesn't work quite like that. The hardware design encourages certain simplicity in the user interface and controls. The benefit might come in form of developers having to think outside the box, not having to worry about "fulfilling" a million features minimum (hi vita) and the games more likely working well on the portable platform.
For your examples, I'm not sure what you are looking for? I already gave a few examples in a previous post where games imposed arbitary limitations on their design that were unusual or completely new to the genre and actually benefitted from those limitations (Metroid Prime and Resident Evil 4).
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
So how do you explain the DS doing so well. It not only had all the buttons of an SNES controller but also a touch screen.
Seraphis Cain
bad gameplay lol
Guilty Gear Advance
King of Fighters
Street Fighter Alpha 3
Every other fighter on the system
Bjoern the Smexy
Member
The Golden Sun games probably wouldn't be possible on SNES because of their file size alone. GS2 is a 256 MBit game, as far as I recall, wheras the biggest SNES games where 48 MBit (Star Ocean, Tales of Phantasia, probably one or two more).
Also I think that the amount of effects on screen especially during battle scenes would slow down the game on SNES by a huge margin (even more so than GS1 slowed down the GBA during some of the Djinn summons).
TheMagician
Member
Why did DKC looks miles better on the SNES than it did on the GBA?
Indeed, but the publishers/developers need to think these things beforehand and Nintendo's philosophy is what it is. There are arguments against and in favour of those decisions. It's a similar age old debate like the "fun vs graphics" thing where you can say that neither cancels each other, but still we can argue that high end graphics correlate to stagnated gameplay and so on.
There's no one reason why it did well. It had great games, the price was right and Nintendo has a good name in the handheld market.
Bjoern the Smexy
Member
DKC was a very, VERY poor port.
Better take a look at DKC3 which actually looks WAY better.
KoF didn't really suffer from it, as it always used only four buttons. Sure, it was a bit weird using two face buttons and two shoulder buttons for everything, but at least there was nothing stupid like having to hold down one of the buttons or pressing two buttons simultaniously for executing a Mid Punch/Kick, like in SSF2T and SFA3.
Ugh, that reminded me of that horrible, horrible Sonic 1 port. SEGA how could you?
You keep mentioning the Vita and I'm not sure why. Not every game uses every feature and there are plenty of games that demonstrate the benefits of having the standard number of buttons and sticks.
Should the 3DS only have two buttons? Would the GBA be even better if it only had a single button? Does the iPhone reign supreme because of the unbeatable simplicity of no buttons?
Why have Nintendo added so many buttons to the Wii-U in comparison to the Wii? Are games going to be inferior because of it?
It just sounds like complete and utter bollocks to me.
JordanN
Banned
There are too many posts that I can't respond to without my current pacing getting slower and slower so I'll say this.
The industry always tries to outdo each other. It's why we saw the Nomad or Xbox offer services better than the competition regardless if their sales weren't the best. Nintendo also wants in on this. It's why they ever release new products, because the old ones were simply past their prime and it leaves an opening for competitors to steal unprotected market share.
It's worse knowing people think they can reverse this trend or actually want to see gameplay malformed when it's just going to comeback stronger than ever in the next handheld.
Nintendo holding back controls doesn't benefit anyone who seriously understands why the industry bothers to go forwards instead of backwards.
The industry always tries to outdo each other. It's why we saw the Nomad or Xbox offer services better than the competition regardless if their sales weren't the best. Nintendo also wants in on this. It's why they ever release new products, because the old ones were simply past their prime and it leaves an opening for competitors to steal unprotected market share.
It's worse knowing people think they can reverse this trend or actually want to see gameplay malformed when it's just going to comeback stronger than ever in the next handheld.
Nintendo holding back controls doesn't benefit anyone who seriously understands why the industry bothers to go forwards instead of backwards.
That was the GBA's fault for not having Blast Processing. What an oversight, Nintendo.
Bjoern the Smexy
Member
Sega should have fired the guys who did that. The game wasn't really a port anyway, it was rebuilt from the ground up for GBA, but they got EVERYTHING wrong.
Some people did a homebrew port only a few months later, which took them only a few days or weeks, too, which was basically a perfect port.
hgarrett54
Banned
Best console ever made. Doesn't deserve all this harsh criticism 
You do know that one of the arguments people use as to why the Wii U is failing is because Nintendo went back on their philosophy of simplicity for the Wii and released an intimidating technogadget controller, right?
No, but it should have no analogs.
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
So really, the number of buttons hasn't hurt it and the same would be true if the GBA had four face buttons. I mean, the SNES had four face buttons 10 years earlier and the Playstation too. People were used to four face buttons, developers were used to four face buttons and it was likely more of a strain than it should have been to make games with only two face buttons, especially SNES ports.
Three-dimensional DS games are a visual atrocity.
Gameboy Advance has two buttons to differentiate itself as a handheld and to accommodate a more compact size. The idea was always that it would offer unique experiences that fit a mobile gaming device.
AdventureRacing
Member
If this is your line of thought than why are you so positive about iphone gaming? For me personally 2 buttons is plenty. The sort of games i like on handhelds really only need that many anyway. The iphone is probably a good example of this working. A lot of simple games have been created using just basic touch controls that we probably wouldn't have seen without that platform.
I want simple games for my handhelds.
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
....and then it got SNES ports.
Best console ever made. Doesn't deserve all this harsh criticism
It's my favorite Nintendo console or handheld ever too. I can still question their design decision though, since it's blatantly obvious that they were thinking about adding four face buttons but in the end decided not to.
Pimpbaa
Slop Inspector
No, it should have 2.
None to me. I might be bold enough to claim that millions agree on this matter. Even the 3DS is way too stuffed in my opinion. I would be completely happy if the machine was more limited, and thus would gain advantages like better battery life, smaller size, lighter weight, simpler games and more sprite based games which I think are the ideal games on a handheld. But then again I play a lot on the move and I know people who treat their handhelds as home consoles.
It's impossible to nail down an absolute perfect form to any platform. GBA was close to that for me and the DSlite wasn't bad. PSP's form factor was godawful and the 3DS isn't all much better.
The Wii U has similar amount of buttons as the Wiimote and nunchuck had so I'm not sure where you are coming at. Also to note, I think the Wii U is a very displeasing platform.
Nintendo can do only so much to prevent the tidal wave of ports. And GBA specifically wouldn't have suffered from added face buttons in my opinion IF the size of the unit wouldn't have grown. But two was enough imo.
Those are two of my favorite games. I'd love to hear your elaboration on that thought, mind linking me to that post?
Not many games will use second circle pad because we also have touch screen to use and it can make up for lack of second circle slide.
Pimpbaa
Slop Inspector
A touch screen is never a good substitute for analog stick/slider or buttons.
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
Not true, Nintendo has complete control over what is licensed on one of their consoles. Further, Nintendo also ported SNES games to the GBA.
The Wii-U is failing because it is overpriced, underpowered and has an abysmal software library.
Hell no. Madness.
I'm positive about iPhone gaming because for short burst gaming on the go, there are a wealth of cracking titles designed specifically for the device. I expect an awful lot more from a handheld device where the primary function is to play video games.
I want games on my handhelds and I don't want them cut down by arbitrary and unnecessary restrictions. If you wouldn't remove the inputs on a console, don't remove 'em on a handheld.
That's because games for the 3DS are built for using only one circle pad. If it had two circle pads, we'd see a ton of more games utilizing that, and I think the 3DS would be better off for having the option.
Umm...
I didn't elaborate it that much because the biggest limitations (camera movement, no strafing, save points, limited aspect ration in re4) are so evident to everyone
Nintendo can't just deny developers to port games, it would not be a very good financial strategy. But it's clear to me that they also realised that platforms like GBA and DS need new, original titles that are customized for portable platforms to really make the platform healthy and desireable. The port wars weren't as bad in the GBA days because many home console games worked naturally better on handhelds than most modern home console games.
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
Pretty much this. The DS had a heap of inputs too, the Wii U is "Homer's car" level of inputs and complexity, and Nintendo themselves released a plastic bolt-on that costs 25 bucks just to get a second stick that should have been there in the first place. The GBA had 2 buttons then they released a heap of SNES ports on it.
Here in Aus 3DS is a $230+ handheld with $59 games which requires another $25 investment just to get dual sticks on it.
Nintendo's history is full of boneheaded decisions - they get a few things right then fuck up the rest
GBA SP requiring a dongle to use headphones. WEP-only support on the original DS. Single sticks on the 3DS and subsequent add-on that is required even for the revised, updated handheld.
Well that and it has a terrible library, with none of the promised 'launch window' games even appearing with release dates yet, and a high price tag.
Metroid Prime requires camera movement within the first minute of gameplay. You have to hold in a button to do it. It's no less complex than any FPS out there, imo - in fact I'd require it's more so. Save points are a holdover from Super Metroid.I didn't elaborate it that much because the biggest limitations (camera movement, no strafing, save points, limited aspect ration in re4) are so evident to everyone
I don't quite see what you are trying to argue. Not all those things listed are completely new things, but certainly something that fought against the norms of the genre.
It sure is. But it doesn't stem from "oh shit our games don't work with a single stick".
AdventureRacing
Member
But they're for completely different purposes. I already have home consoles to play on when i'm in my own home. If i'm actually playing on the go at all i just want to play something simple. It doesn't matter how many buttons you give a handheld, it will always be a watered down home console. I just don't want the same thing for both.
My point about the iphone is a lot of those games wouldn't exist without that simple control scheme and those are the games i love. So for me personally i can see how a simpler control scheme leading to better games.
Edit: If gaming was still limited to a dpad and 2 buttons (not that i'm actually advocating that) it would still be in 2D which would make it infinitely better than the prime games for me.
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
I didn't elaborate it that much because the biggest limitations (camera movement, no strafing, save points, limited aspect ration in re4) are so evident to everyone
Nintendo can't just deny developers to port games, it would not be a very good financial strategy. But it's clear to me that they also realised that platforms like GBA and DS need new, original titles that are customized for portable platforms to really make the platform healthy and desireable. The port wars weren't as bad in the GBA days because many home console games worked naturally better on handhelds than most modern home console games.
It's clear to me that Nintendo was just as guilty as anyone else of porting SNES games to the GBA. They also ported NES games but those were designed with only two face buttons in the first place.
I can understand why you think handhelds need their own special "handheld friendly" games but I don't see that it's really necessary (or wanted) anymore. People are playing less on consoles and more on handhelds but what some people really want is to take their console games with them, not get gimped games on handhelds.
Would you rather play Final Fantasy X on your Vita or would you rather play some chopped up handheld friendly version of Final Fantasy X on your Vita?
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
You were saying that Metroid Prime's lack of camera control was part of a design choice by Nintendo to keep things simple with a low barrier to entry. I was arguing otherwise - that its form of camera control was more complex than the alternative (dual analog). Yes, it was a new way of doing things - and don't get me wrong, Metroid Prime really is my favourite game - but I don't think being easy to control was one of its strong points.
By this logic the Vita should be a flying success and the archaic 3DS dead and buried. You are correct that the audience for full home console experiences on handhelds has grown, but we can only speculate whether that audience will grow more and be able to support a platform.
I would not play FFX on a handheld device. All those cutscenes would be a hinderance. I would like an FF game that would be made for Vita, not a PS2 game ported to it.
Ah, I used those games as examples of arbitary design limitations in game design. I did not mean to pair them with Nintendo's user friendly design at all
A Black Falcon
Member
Why only two face buttons? To give continuity with the Game Boy line and to keep the system small (more face buttons would mean a larger system, I think), probably...
Many of the best looking SNES games do use additional hardware, but not all. Games like Super Mario World, F-Zero, Street Racer, Donkey Kong Country, or R2: Rendering Ranger don't use any additional hardware, but look outstanding...
But yeah, the GBA is a lot more poweful graphically than the SNES. Even with a Super FX 2 chip, the SNES would have no hope of coming even close to what the GBA can do with polygon graphics. Now, even the "best" GBA polygon graphics still look pretty awful most of the time, but still, they're far beyond what the SNES could do. The GBA can also do more effects than the SNES, including things like sprite scaling and rotation that the SNES can't do. And of course the GBA has a 32-bit CPU, not a slow 16-bit one that actually runs at 8-bit some of the time like the SNES has.
GBA sound is worse than SNES, but graphically, it's a substantial improvement.
Many of the best looking SNES games do use additional hardware, but not all. Games like Super Mario World, F-Zero, Street Racer, Donkey Kong Country, or R2: Rendering Ranger don't use any additional hardware, but look outstanding...
But yeah, the GBA is a lot more poweful graphically than the SNES. Even with a Super FX 2 chip, the SNES would have no hope of coming even close to what the GBA can do with polygon graphics. Now, even the "best" GBA polygon graphics still look pretty awful most of the time, but still, they're far beyond what the SNES could do. The GBA can also do more effects than the SNES, including things like sprite scaling and rotation that the SNES can't do. And of course the GBA has a 32-bit CPU, not a slow 16-bit one that actually runs at 8-bit some of the time like the SNES has.
GBA sound is worse than SNES, but graphically, it's a substantial improvement.
If anything Nintendo was leading by example by porting Mario games, and creating the NES Anniversary releases on the platform.
AdventureRacing
Member
FFX is a game i have no interest on playing on the vita. A PS3/PS4 version would just be infinitely better to me. It's just not a game i want to play on a handheld.
Like I said, those games were a much better fit for handheld games than the stuff that we play nowadays on home consoles.
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
A Final Fantasy game MADE for the Vita would likely be a major production and not some chopped up handheld friendly game.
The 3DS has a few console ports, Starfox and Ocarina of Time come to mind. It's when games get gimped BECAUSE they are on a handheld (like Paper Mario: Sticker Star) that you see people complain. Paper Mario could have been so much more than it was. The 3DS hardware wasn't the problem. The 3DS could use a built in second analog stick but atleast it has 4 face buttons.
The Vita is failing because it has a severe shortage of games and hopefully that will be remedied in time. The hardware is ready for full on console ports or gimped handheld friendly games.
As far as I am concerned, paying $40 for handheld friendly games won't cut it when you can get $0.99 handheld friendly games.
May as well just play it on the PS2 now, you probably already own it too so it won't cost you a thing.
The point is that some people want to take their favorite console games to the bathroom with them, to work with them and on the subway with them.
This was pretty funny
You can't get games that have Nintendo levels of production values for 1 dollar.
Knux-Future
Banned
Holy shit.
People are looking back in time to point out shit Nintendo did wrong...goddam.
It would have been nice to have extra buttons but It would have made it very cramped...and honestly it didn't need it.
The worse thing was the lack of backlight.
People are looking back in time to point out shit Nintendo did wrong...goddam.
It would have been nice to have extra buttons but It would have made it very cramped...and honestly it didn't need it.
The worse thing was the lack of backlight.
JordanN
Banned
It would be no more cramped than their current multi button handhelds.
Boom, I made a proper GBA.
Edit: Made it more gameboy like.
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
If it had two extra buttons, it would have been a little bigger to accommodate them.