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[shanafan]

What about the people who got the engrams the regular way, they still have an advantage over you too.

LOL, this is pretty true.

 

[Freeman76]

This thread is a load of rubbish. You can get everything without paying. If people want to buy their way through without grinding for it thats up to them. Live and let live.

 

[wesleyshark]

What about the people who got the engrams the regular way, they still have an advantage over you too.

Lmao. This.

 

[NullPointer]

i don't consider something pay to win if you can earn it in game through playing regularly regardless of the time it takes.

With this definition, do you know of any pay-to-win elements in games?

All the ones I know involve accelerators and lootpacks that can be found in-game, but are made available for real money, or virtual currency that can be bought with real money.

What about the people who got the engrams the regular way, they still have an advantage over you too.

I play the game for X hours and acquire a bunch of loot. My opponent plays for the same amount of hours but spends $50 on silver packs. My opponent will have more loot to work with, and to tailor their build. That's the advantage.

 

[firehawk12]

You know, I'm really surprised they aren't sell the level 20 item thing for people who don't want to level alts. That, if nothing else, seems like free money being left on the table.

 

[Boombloxer]

There's no level cap? How does the xp curve work after 20?

All of the people who said this wasn't coming despite Bungie continually pushing the envelope on what Silver could affect in-game... LOL. I'm looking at you, Destiny-GAF. This was always their end game and people who believed otherwise we're being purposefully naive.

Well thanks but no thanks. I was already so-so on the PC beta, now I'm out. I personally don't understand the full extent of the implications, but at a glance it doesn't look a good thing.

Ahhh, no wonder cooldowns are so long. Hope you have enough before the big fight.

Think it's just a continuation of the awful design/business decisions that have been a part of Destiny since the first DLC hit.

In D1 you got a mote of light every time your XP bar filled once you hit the cap. In D2, you get a bright engram which it turns out can also be bought from Eververse.

This is not good. This is the same as being able to buy glimmer, strange coins, motes of light, etc. You should not be able to buy things that otherwise need earned in game.

"It's Destiny, without all the bullshit."

lmao

Yes, but when you have the option to either spend $50 to get the best weapon or play for 300 hours for the same results, it's pretty pay to win. Like those shitty Game of War style games on mobile that the only way to stay at the top is by spending hundreds of dollars each month, even though you can do the same by playing a lot.

You give a big time advantage to players that are willing to spend money.

Yes, by grinding through the game. But if someone wants, they can buy just buy a ton of these and amp up their character.

Just because it can be obtained through gameplay doesn't mean it isn't bad. This is the definition of pay 2 win.

Just because you can get them other ways, doesn't stop this from being p2w.

People defending this as if it meant nothing. Your cooldowns are permanently slower because of them, and who says you'll have enough of them when you need them most? It changes the way the game is played.

Grinding vs paying for a shortcut, basically the definition of pay 2 win and people still trying to defend shit.

Hahaha....

Where are all those defenders from their first microtransactions attempts in original game?
Wait........ they are still there even in this thread. WTF!!!!!!!

You will never fucking learn i swear.....

Everyone saying it's not a big deal you can get them in game...these aren't cosmetics, this is some F2P game bullshit if it's basically 'hey spend 2 hours to get another loot box' or 'hey just buy 10 mods and see if you get a good one in 5 minutes'

Like, this is 100000 times worse than overwatch loot boxes, for example. This is literally mobile phone game stuff.

How do you know that though?

If you and I boot up the game for the first time, and we go straight into PvP, but I went and bought a bunch of these engrams and all my starter armor and weapons are boosted by ability cooldowns, I can now throw 3 grenades to your 1 in a pvp match (numbers not exact, but faster cooldowns mean that could be possible).

That's pretty bullshit.

Just type "I have never played Destiny and have done no research."

This is in D1 right now, and is not different from what's obtainable in-game. You don't get, say, +250 int from an engram armor/ghost, it's the same stat split as what you find in-game. The looks change some, but you can get piece of armor with bad stats too.

So in order:

"Omg the glimmer you can get!"
You get around 20 glimmer from dismantling in D1. It's easier to pop a booster and go to patrol or strikes.

"Omg 3 grenades instead of one"
I can do this right now at max level with multiple classes and Ether Nova, or any gun with the Army of One perk. Also, you can't use these before you're max level anyway. So, no, if we're loading in at level 1-19, you and I are equally matched, it depends on what we've found in-game.

Oh yea, and these are free with each level you gain.
You gain levels basically forever, you raise your light level via gear, not XP earned.

Feel free to complain more about something you don't really know about, but a lot of this is pretty fucking silly.

 

[piratepwnsninja]

Yes, but when you have the option to either spend $50 to get the best weapon or play for 300 hours for the same results, it's pretty pay to win. Like those shitty Game of War style games on mobile that the only way to stay at the top is by spending hundreds of dollars each month, even though you can do the same by playing a lot.

You give a big time advantage to players that are willing to spend money.

But engrams are random and by far won't have the best weapons?

 

[Psychoward]

Anyone legitimately surprised by Destiny 2 price gouging after Destiny 1 had 170 dollars worth of mandatory DLC just to get it to an acceptable level of content plus cosmetic MTs...

 

[dengatron]

With this definition, do you know of any pay-to-win elements in games?

All the ones I know involve accelerators and lootpacks that can be found in-game, but are made available for real money, or virtual currency that can be bought with real money.

that's likely because most games have outright avoided paying for endgame gear unavailable by other methods.

 

[shanafan]

Disgusting.

And the people who buys and supports this microtransactions are even worse

I purchased the accelerator for WWE 2K17 because I didn't want to spend hours trying to unlock everything in the game. I wanted to be able to setup my dream matches from the get-go and have fun. I looked in the mirror and said, "Look at you, you're disgusting" and I clicked buy

 

[ultrazilla]

Much ado about nothing. If you can get the items from in game activities and don't have to pay for them, this is a non-issue. Since you can get them in game for grinding activities-no big deal IMO.

Destiny/Bungie/Activision have gotten money out of me for silver because I love the game and want to support Bungie. As long as they're not selling exotic weapons/armor behind a paywall they can do whatever they want IMO.

The moment that items are locked behind a pay wall that can give you weapons or armor...then I'll re-assess my feelings.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Breezy, I know you've played plenty of PvP.

I'm curious to why you think any of the items would be necessary to be competitive. D1 has shown this to not be the case.

In Trials of Osiris, the meta changed. For example, during HoW you needed one of the 3 in order to be really 'competitive'(Thorn, TLW, Hawkmoon.) Everyone ran those weapons, and you were at a disadvantage if you didn't.

After they got nerfed, then the Pulse Rifle era began. Queue the farming of witch lady...

...

...etc.

But, I'm reading that they're blue mods and not epics/legendary, so I'm probably overblowing it.

 

[Digital Savior]

I personally don't care. Sorry folks.

 

[Filthy Casual]

Acti gonna Acti

 

[Royce McCutcheon]

In Trials of Osiris, the meta changed. For example, during HoW you needed one of the 3 in order to be really 'competitive'(Thorn, TLW, Hawkmoon.) Everyone ran those weapons, and you were at a disadvantage if you didn't.

After they got nerfed, then the Pulse Rifle era began. Queue the farming of witch lady...

...

...etc.

But, I'm reading that they're blue mods and not epics/legendary, so I'm probably overblowing it.

The people who will be successful at ToO won't need to spend money to have the best gear ready. Just the fact that these engrams are similar to motes of light should ease your concerns.

 

[Crazy eyes]

This thread is a load of rubbish. You can get everything without paying. If people want to buy their way through without grinding for it thats up to them. Live and let live.

I disagree, it´s about the community, when you sell attributes to other players you somehow disrespect the community , disrespect the player who battle for the best setup, spending time and effort.

i really don't think that this is a big upgrade to the player, but when you do this you are sending a message to everybody that you really don´t care for the player that spent time to achieve this status !

 

[DeaDPo0L84]

Yikes. Every time I read about Destiny 2 its something bad.

I can't buy a game and support devs who do this kind of thing. Sorry Bungie, first time in 16 years I won't be buying your game.

I can't tell what's real or anymore, the lines have been blurred too much.

 

[iRAWRasaurus]

You know, I'm really surprised they aren't sell the level 20 item thing for people who don't want to level alts. That, if nothing else, seems like free money being left on the table.

Thats next year with the new DLC.

 

[IISANDERII]

Anyone legitimately surprised by Destiny 2 price gouging after Destiny 1 had 170 dollars worth of mandatory DLC just to get it to an acceptable level of content plus cosmetic MTs...

Absolutely this. The argument that they fixed Destiny almost always overlooked the caveat that you actually got it fixed for $175.

 

[JackHerer]

The truth is that these are essentially cosmetics. They have perks that change gameplay so that they aren't unusable compared to the other gear you get in the game. It's exactly the same as what's currently in Destiny 1 and that hasn't been a balance issue at all. Pay to win this is NOT. The best gear will still have to be earned though Raids and other end-game challenges.

People are acting like you can buy exotics or something...

 

[Magwik]

Thats next year with the new DLC.

People keep saying this but it never happened

 

[DerpHause]

Absolutely this. The argument that they fixed Destiny almost always overlooked the caveat that you actually got it fixed for $175.

Fundamental mechanics changed whether you paid or not. What you actually paid for was the additional content. To say they gouged for it suggests a poor understanding of what price gouging is. Feel free to say you don't think the gameplay was worth it, but that doesn't change that each major revision came coupled with optional paid content to consume.

People keep saying this but it never happened

Yes, it did actually.

 

[Old Gimlet Eyes]

I disagree, it´s about the community, when you sell attributes to other players you somehow disrespect the community , disrespect the player who battle for the best setup, spending time and effort.

i really don't think that this is a big upgrade to the player, but when you do this you are sending a message to everybody that you really don´t care for the player that spent time to achieve this status !

I'm sure they still care about this just that they care about $ more.

 

[Stripper13]

With this definition, do you know of any pay-to-win elements in games?

All the ones I know involve accelerators and lootpacks that can be found in-game, but are made available for real money, or virtual currency that can be bought with real money.


I play the game for X hours and acquire a bunch of loot. My opponent plays for the same amount of hours but spends $50 on silver packs. My opponent will have more loot to work with, and to tailor their build. That's the advantage.

You're completely off here.

An example of pay to win is The Last of Us - that let you buy new, superior weapons/abilities that were unable to be unlocked via other means.

The bright engram appears to be aligned with D1 unlocks, where you can pay to essentially take a crack at a loot crate style drop. You may get a good mod, you may get a duplicate - but regardless, you can either play the game normally and unlock them over time, or you for the impatient/rich/time-poor player, they have a shortcut to them directly.

Pay to win is not temporary, non-gameplay affecting boosts (eg. EXP). Nor is it loot packs, provided the contents are easily unlockable with normal gameplay, and that the grind isn't ridiculous. Haven't run into any bright engrams yet (barely played D2 so far) but there should be no concerns given how engrams worked in D1.

 

[Psychoward]

Fundamental mechanics changed whether you paid or not. What you actually paid for was the additional content. To say they gouged for it suggests a poor understanding of what price gouging is. Feel free to say you don't think the gameplay was worth it, but that doesn't change that each major revision came coupled with optional paid content to consume.

Nah, to play in a lot of the playlists or maintain your status in the endgame you had to pay for every expansion. Plus there's the fact that it isn't a minority opinion that vanilla lacked content.

 

[MastAndo]

Fundamental mechanics changed whether you paid or not. What you actually paid for was the additional content. To say they gouged for it suggests a poor understanding of what price gouging is. Feel free to say you don't think the gameplay was worth it, but that doesn't change that each major revision came coupled with optional paid content to consume.

I read this in Zavala's voice.

 

[DerpHause]

Nah, to play in a lot of the playlists or maintain your status in the endgame you had to pay for every expansion. Plus there's the fact that it isn't a minority opinion that vanilla lacked content.

Endgame moved, that's new content you're paying for. Doesn't change that light levels were fixed, upgrading was fixed and other things were improved. What was locked were game modes that used new content at the new top level, which again is the locked optional paid content.

I read this in Zavala's voice.

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to feel about that.

 

[PooBone]

Gross

 

[TyrantII]

Anyone legitimately surprised by Destiny 2 price gouging after Destiny 1 had 170 dollars worth of mandatory DLC just to get it to an acceptable level of content plus cosmetic MTs...

$170 / 2000 hrs = 8 cents an hour of Entertainment

By far the best cost to time use I've ever gotten out of a media product.

YMMV, but cost has never been an issue with Destiny.

 

[Stripper13]

Nah, to play in a lot of the playlists or maintain your status in the endgame you had to pay for every expansion. Plus there's the fact that it isn't a minority opinion that vanilla lacked content.

Of course you had to, that's how this model and broader MMO end game works.

But it is possible to play D1 without expansions. You'll have access to the Raid, Crucible, Strikes, Patrols and Story Missions - along with the QoL improvements and general updates to the game.

You are only forced to buy DLC if want to keep up with the end game and play additional missions/raids/maps - pretty much exactly why DLC and expansions packs came into existence.

 

[NullPointer]

Pay to win is not temporary, non-gameplay affecting boosts (eg. EXP).

It is when EXP is then used to unlock capabilities that your opponent might not have.

In Destiny 1's case I know the PvP normalizes damage, but your class perks and weapon perks are all possible advantages that you could unlock by buying XP.

In the case of these loot boxes its armor mods, but as stat-bearing items, if you have one player who has put in 20 hours and another player who has put in 20 hours + $50 in cash, the second player should have an advantage (either in direct stats, or breadth of loot/build options to use).

Its all pay-to-win on some level, but there are different degrees. Like your TLOU example is definitely worse.

 

[To Far Away Times]

An easy way to weed out a bad game.

 

[vin-buc]

I disagree, it´s about the community, when you sell attributes to other players you somehow disrespect the community , disrespect the player who battle for the best setup, spending time and effort.

i really don't think that this is a big upgrade to the player, but when you do this you are sending a message to everybody that you really don´t care for the player that spent time to achieve this status !

you should look at it from outside the box also. i work 11 hours a day, married with a bunch of kids - if i had the disposable income (but not the time) - why couldn't i pay for anything that i would never be able to get because of time i would never be able to spend trying to get that thing?

the community is not just people who have all the free time in the world to grind the game.

 

[commish]

It sounds like D2 is ruined before it even launched.

 

[Magwik]

It sounds like D2 is ruined before it even launched.

Can you well, back this up with anything of substance?

 

[commish]

Can you well, back this up with anything of substance?

Just another P2W game now. Us people who don't pay won't have a snowball's chance in hell in competing with the whales.

 

[Strakt]

It sounds like D2 is ruined before it even launched.

Fortunately its only ruined for those who had no intention of playing the game in the first place or those that don't know how these items even affect end game =)

Just another P2W game now. Us people who don't pay won't have a snowball's chance in hell in competing with the whales.

Sounds like an excuse for just being bad at the game in the first place

 

[flkraven]

Just type "I have never played Destiny and have done no research."

This is in D1 right now, and is not different from what's obtainable in-game. You don't get, say, +250 int from an engram armor/ghost, it's the same stat split as what you find in-game. The looks change some, but you can get piece of armor with bad stats too.

So in order:

"Omg the glimmer you can get!"
You get around 20 glimmer from dismantling in D1. It's easier to pop a booster and go to patrol or strikes.

"Omg 3 grenades instead of one"
I can do this right now at max level with multiple classes and Ether Nova, or any gun with the Army of One perk. Also, you can't use these before you're max level anyway. So, no, if we're loading in at level 1-19, you and I are equally matched, it depends on what we've found in-game.

Oh yea, and these are free with each level you gain.
You gain levels basically forever, you raise your light level via gear, not XP earned.

Feel free to complain more about something you don't really know about, but a lot of this is pretty fucking silly.

1100+ hours



ITT people that use the same defense for any criticism levied against Destiny. It's either 'no big deal, completely overblown' or 'the haters on gaming side have never played Destiny, and just hate on it'.

Just type "I'm a Bungie zombie, and I'll buy any garbage they scoop into the trough.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

This doesn't really concern me much, to be honest, so long as the loot is the same that is available in the game otherwise.

D1's bigger issue was that since perks were random, even if your ground the same activities, sure RNG had a bigger factor on who had the advantage then anything.

So long as the pay advantage isn't something completely outside the game to someone playing normally, it's cool with me. What I hate is the DLC/unlock/etc of items/weapons/etc that are unavailable. a few games have had special weapons, armor, summons, etc that break the game that are cash only things.

 

[CountAntonius]

Just another P2W game now. Us people who don't pay won't have a snowball's chance in hell in competing with the whales.

 

[benzopil]

I play the game for X hours and acquire a bunch of loot. My opponent plays for the same amount of hours but spends $50 on silver packs. My opponent will have more loot to work with, and to tailor their build. That's the advantage.

What if he was playing while you were sleeping?

 

[Stripper13]

It is when EXP is then used to unlock capabilities that your opponent might not have.

In Destiny 1's case I know the PvP normalizes damage, but your class perks and weapon perks are all possible advantages that you could unlock by buying XP.

In the case of these loot boxes its armor mods, but as stat-bearing items, if you have one player who has put in 20 hours and another player who has put in 20 hours + $50 in cash, the second player should have an advantage (either in direct stats, or breadth of loot/build options to use).

Its all pay-to-win on some level, but there are different degrees. Like your TLOU example is definitely worse.

I think we're really stretching the definition of pay to win here. I can play Battlefield 1 and unlock everything over time, yet a player with less time (or a desire to waste money) is able to pay for EXP boosters or shortcut packs that give them access to later class unlocks foe abilties/weapons/vehicles.
That's not really pay to win because all of that content is there for me and the grind isn't setup in such a way that makes it difficult to obtain without paying.

That may bother you and you may consider it unfair. However in that mindset, you may also consider it unfair that X player has access to everything because he/she has way more time spent - or that you started the game a few months in and feel way behind the curve.

It's just how progression and unlocks work in this model, and I'm sure the people willing to pay for this will appreciate the option. The only real way around it is to essentially neuter the unlock/progression in the game (eg Overwatch) where nothing matters and everything is cosmetic - so a level 1 player is the exact same as a level 1000 player.

 

[Magwik]

Just another P2W game now. Us people who don't pay won't have a snowball's chance in hell in competing with the whales.

So you haven't read the thread at all? Because it's not P2W nor will it have any meaningful affect on you.

 

[Sriracha_X]

I checked out the stream clip, and it looks like the only things that can affect gameplay are the weapon/armor mods. You could make a case for the Sparrows as well, with the legendary/exotic Sparrows being faster than normal ones you get, but I'm inclined to believe that the speed difference is negligible and that people would be seeking them mainly for the looks.

My questions are, how many mods can be installed on a weapon and what are the chances of getting a mod from a Bright Engram? If only one of each mod type can be installed on an item at once, then I'd say it really isn't a big deal. If you can go ham and install as many as you want so you can achieve crazy stuff like a 3s grenade cooldown, then I could see this being a potential problem.

I'm not one to defend microtransactions, but with what I see right now, I don't see a reason to bring out the pitchforks and torches. I won't be able to get the game until the PC version drops, so I'm going to wait on how things pan out with this once there's more information on the chances of items received from Bright Engrams and how many mods can be installed on an item.

 

[vin-buc]

Just another P2W game now. Us people who don't pay won't have a snowball's chance in hell in competing with the whales.

LoL - while i cant stand microtransactions, i understand why they exist. but folks saying you cant be competitive because others buy and you dont....c'mon.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

This thread is a load of rubbish. You can get everything without paying. If people want to buy their way through without grinding for it thats up to them. Live and let live.

I'm having flashbacks to all the stupidity around SFV and Fight Money. Same bullshit fear mongering.

 

[Dalek]

LoL - while i cant stand microtransactions, i understand why they exist. but folks saying you cant be competitive because others buy and you dont....c'mon.

I'm convinced these hot takes are based on the thread name and not any understanding of what these junk items are.

 

[Kagutaba]

As someone who has increasingly less time to actually game, I don't mind being able to spend cash to be on a somewhat level playing field. I don't have 10+ hours to game every week. It puts me at a severe disadvantage, so being able to have some mechanism to stay in the game is okay with me. That's just the flip side I want to provide. Unless I am getting something that someone else cannot get with playing the game, it's not irking me.

But here's the thing; I am afraid that the reason it takes 10+ hours (and not one) to earn these things in game these days might be to make you buy them instead.

The cooldown time is longer in Destiny 2, I don't like that, and maybe that's the point. Who can say how many hours you need to grind on average to fully decrease your cooldown time, especially considering the RNG. Or... you can buy twenty engrams in 20 seconds and speed the process up considerably.

People just refuse to admit the fundamental gameplay that is affected with this. Whenever you are out in the world doing anything, you will be affected by longer cooldowns. It doesn't matter if you earn them after level 20, until you use these commnsumables, your cooldowns timers will be worse than the first game. If you don't think it's because of these microtransactions, I have a bridge to sell you.

Exactly, it also puts a slight damper on the argument that the cooldown times are longer for PvP balance sake when you actually can buy engrams that has a chance of giving you items that decreases them.

I would also like to say that it is fully possible to be both upset or worried about this and still be excited for Destiny 2, these things are not mutually exclusive, quite the opposite in fact. Hell, even if you absolutely love the game I think it's always worth grumbling about micro transactions in a full priced game with paid DLC, things didn't use to be this way.

Destiny 1 added XP boosters for real money in the last year or so of its release, which were also obtainable in the game. While abhorrent on the surface they were not an issue because 1) the need to use them was mitigated by generous rewards - they didn't slope the floor when they were added (actually did the opposite) and 2) they were in-game rewards with some frequency.

Which is not to say I'm happy about this. It's an awful practice. But how and whether the core game is affected is what matters. With D1 they went a ways down this road but they remained something you could ignore entirely because the game didn't feel nerfed or constrained by them. Hopefully D2 is similar.

I hope you are right. The longer cooldown times has me worried though.

 

[Skatterd]

Just another P2W game now. Us people who don't pay won't have a snowball's chance in hell in competing with the whales.

Is this what this discussion has come to?

Yes, paying for micro-transactions is a gross tactic that most big modern games use.
No, this is not pay to win.
Yes, Destiny 1 did a lot of this already.
No, this will likely not make a difference in "competitive" Destiny.

 

[yanipheonu]

Yeah as a long time Destiny player this seems like Much Ado About Nothing.

Frankly the microtransactions could use a boost. They were pretty mediocre.