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Someone I liked and respected became a neonazi

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We were doing Walking Dead family trivia after dinner, and the question was what T-Dog's name was. That was his reason when asked why he picked that answer


Whenever I hear my dad say how Trump is a great president and that Obama was the worst president ever and a tyrant out to destroy America, it's like I'm in the Twilight Zone or something. Granted, he's been saying that about Obama for years, so that part I'm partly acclimated to

But how in the hell can he say that, and then not see how Trump is everything he claimed Obama to be?

Well, partially because he wouldn't touch a New York Times or Washington Post or any other lying liberal news source with a ten foot pole (because they only lie and make up stories, and never really discuss what really happens in the world)

But damn, it makes my brain hurt when I see him being perfectly fine with everything Trump is saying and doing

And you can't discuss stuff with him. See, I went to college. Aka where liberal professors brainwash vulnerable minds. So if I try to discuss something from a liberal logical perspective, it's all dismissed as Of course, you'd think that. Who taught you that, your professors?

Never mind that I've been out of a college for a year now

This describes me to a T minus college, I'm just educated I don't have a college degree in anything.

I've just read a lot of books, studied things and payed great attention to things in school.

The old adage of "Ignorance breeds evil" always comes to mind, whenever it came to broadening ones mind.

Now, we're seemingly surrounded by it on a worldwide scale.

Now, apparently coming at things from a logical place at all is practically anathema.
 

Opto

Banned
She's a lost cause.

and really bizarre she's taking up a handle that implies being on the losing side and then getting executed
 
And my older brother and sister voted for Trump for ridiculous reasons. I thought they were more intelligent and better people, but just awful things have come out of their mouths since the election. My brother just non-stop hated on Obama, both of them went "BUT HER EMAILS", and my sister ACTUALLY said this: Hillary couldn't control her man, she can't run a country. Fucking actually said that
Did they start listening to right wing news before you saw those incongruous attitudes?

My dad listens to Mark Levin pretty much daily, years before that would watch O'Reilly on Fox, and I'm pretty sure that's what - if perhaps not the only cause - allowed it to fester, grow, and warp his ideals and perspective on things.
 

SeanTSC

Member
Did they start listening to right wing news before you saw those incongruous attitudes?

My dad listens to Mark Levin pretty much daily, years before that would watch O'Reilly on Fox, and I'm pretty sure that's what - if perhaps not the only cause - allowed it to fester, grow, and warp his ideals and perspective on things.

I'm not sure, since I didn't really inquire into that type of thing with them before. We mostly got together to watch stuff or dinners and there was just nothing like this. But then this election came around and it was like they were different people. Just this huge sudden surge of hate for Obama and Hillary and all kinds of excuses for Trump.
 

Aizo

Banned
Great, I'm living in a watered down version of Derry, Maine.

What's next? Clowns offering balloons?
Your joke was way better than mine.
In all seriousness, is Greeley very conservative? I can't imagine living far outside of the Denver metro area or Boulder. Lots of shitty places in CO, like CO Springs.

Move to Boulder or Denver. Get away from Neo Nazis.
 

jaxpunk

Member
You know, you read stuff like this, and then people laugh when you say we're on the road to another civil war. How can you not see the extreme gap in how these two sides look at the world and not see that we heading headfirst into a civil war conflict? We're already in an intense cultural civil war, it's only a matter of time before it escalates. I just wished I felt better about our odds

Slow down bro, "civil war" is not happening.
 
Your joke was way better than mine.
In all seriousness, is Greeley very conservative? I can't imagine living far outside of the Denver metro area or Boulder. Lots of shitty places in CO, like CO Springs.

Move to Boulder or Denver. Get away from Neo Nazis.

Well, we actually used to live in the metro area but we couldn't afford it, then my Dad decided to move us to Greeley.

That was 7 years ago.

Honestly the only part of Colorado I liked was Denver and the metro area. That's living there in the state for like 20 years.

Thanks for the compliment though. <3
 

Goofalo

Member
Your joke was way better than mine.
In all seriousness, is Greeley very conservative? I can't imagine living far outside of the Denver metro area or Boulder. Lots of shitty places in CO, like CO Springs.

Move to Boulder or Denver. Get away from Neo Nazis.

Boulder isn't all that great, outside of the college associated folks, and crystal waving hippies, Boulder is affluent NIMBYs.

Denver, its more broad, but a lot of Denver loves their religion as well. The Springs is just more openly batshit crazy about it. And Denver has always had a Neo Nazi problem, not just from when Alan Berg was assassinated in the mid-80's to when those cabbies were murdered in the late 90's. I think I was a junior in college when that happened. There have always been skins in Denver.
 

pa22word

Member
Boulder isn't all that great, outside of the college associated folks, and crystal waving hippies, Boulder is affluent NIMBYs.

Not to mention based on what I've read you guys are all work and no play to the point it makes you seem like rather dull boys...
 
Slow down bro, "civil war" is not happening.

I don't expect it to be a traditional war, but anyone who thinks we aren't screaming headfirst into some type of civil war like conflict is really just fooling themselves. But I know no one really wants to entertain the idea because of the terror and surreality behind it so I won't push the discussion any further
 

pa22word

Member
civil war like conflict

"Professor James Downs. "Color blindness in the demographic death toll of the Civil War". Oxford University Press, April 13th 2012. "An 2 April 2012 New York Times article, "New Estimate Raises Civil War Death Toll," reports that a new study ratchets up the death toll from an estimated 650,000 to a staggering 850,000 people. As horrific as this new number is, it fails to reflect the mortality of former slaves during the war. If former slaves were included in this figure, the Civil War death toll would likely be over a million casualties ..."

tumblr_inline_nzmicgKa4j1sr8rpr_500.gif


For comparison, US pop was roughly 32 million around then + extrapolate then compare to the insane casualty rates of WW1 and 2, then the even more modern advances of modern wars.
 
tumblr_inline_nzmicgKa4j1sr8rpr_500.gif


For comparison, US pop was roughly 32 million around then + extrapolate then compare to the insane casualty rates of WW1 and 2, then the even more modern advances of modern wars.

Like I said, I won't push it because I know it'll only get dismissed, but it's pretty obvious to anyone paying atrention
 

pa22word

Member
Like I said, I won't push it because I know it'll only get dismissed, but it's pretty obvious to anyone paying atrention

People are paying attention. No one is going to raise up arms against the US government in a serious capacity, come the fuck on man. We are not 1862 levels of bad, not even close. To suggest such is to make me seriously suggest you go read some history of pre-civil war period (Texas Ascension, MA war, Bleeding Kansas, early Missouri history, etc) and warfare of the 19th century vs today.
 
Hey man, I've had several Black friends get successful, become Republicans, and unconsciously start having hatred towards Black people in general especially towards Black women.
 
I'm honestly sorry about your friend and father, OP. As a minority on multiple intersections, I have little sympathy for people who fall hard for this rhetoric. Anyone who accepts it has lost their empathy for other human beings despite what they might claim because they literally believe in the genocide of other people at the end of the day. They've gone beyond debate and convincing and it's honestly up to them and no one else to realize how sick and horrifying their ideals are and recover. Sadly there's not much you can do yourself OP beyond being a stalwart example of true empathy and acceptance for people who aren't you. There are people out there who are truly suffering in modern society and you shouldn't spend your time trying to unbrainwash neonazis when they have to do it themselves.
 

Ogodei

Member
You know, you read stuff like this, and then people laugh when you say we're on the road to another civil war. How can you not see the extreme gap in how these two sides look at the world and not see that we heading headfirst into a civil war conflict? We're already in an intense cultural civil war, it's only a matter of time before it escalates. I just wished I felt better about our odds

Because the people who believe this are losers and cowards and would never actually go to civil war. Civil wars are *hard*, and require a vigor that these dittoheads can't muster. 200,000 people turned out for the Climate March today, going out in DC in 90 degree weather while these dicknoses sit at home in their climate controlled comfort and watch Trump whine about the constitutional process on TV.

Trump is their president well and truly. They are repugnant, but they are also fundamentally immature, impatient, ignorant, and impotent. Dangerous in limited quantities, but utterly incapable of causing real harm because doing real damage to the country and its institutions takes work.
 

MattKeil

BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
Like I said, I won't push it because I know it'll only get dismissed, but it's pretty obvious to anyone paying atrention

Trying paying attention instead. The notion that the current political disagreement will lead to a shooting war that results in the deaths of 3% of the United States population is currently the realm of loons and enthusiastic doomsday preppers. There's no there there. The discourse will likely get more toxic but there's no Civil War II looming.

Yet
 

pa22word

Member
Give it time

Just fyi, I live in oklahoma and people were giving me the same crap when Obama was elected. We lived through Nixon man. Tyler. Buchanan. Johnson. Fuck, Bush 43. It's going to be okay. We've had bad presidents, terrible one's even. It doesn't mean civil war is coming.
 
I know the feeling. My grandparents are Democrats, my grandfather an immigrant from Puerto Rico who came to America as a kid in the 40s without knowing English. He was even put back a grade because he didn't know the language, and he had to teach himself.

And somehow the son he raised, my dad, was able to corrupt that history and those values taught into something molded by right wing ideology. My dad thinks his father is crazy for being a Democrat.

He can be pretty blind to the racist and bigoted things he says. That "Theodore" sounds like a black name. How the protestors in Ferguson were just thugs and anarchists. How LGBTQ kids and people should just stay silent. How it was better in the 70s, 80s, because people didn't try to make their stuff known like that and just kept quiet about it

My mom and I told him how that last one sounded like during a discussion once, even she was surprised by what he was saying (she's a counselor and works with middle school students in the Bronx). But he wouldn't accept that what he was saying was bad.

It's hard to see someone who taught you to be accepting, understanding, logical, who you love and looked up to all your life, acting so counter to everything they taught you and them being completely blind to all of it.
My sister and I have gone through a similar situation with our parents. I was raised to be a skeptic; to look for evidence. Yet here I am a reasonable human being while the people that taught me turned into hateful, racist, deliousional pricks. My parents are probably the only people I know who I cannot even fathom coming out to.
 
My sister and I have gone through a similar situation with our parents. I was raised to be a skeptic; to look for evidence. Yet here I am a reasonable human being while the people that taught me turned into hateful, racist, deliousional pricks. My parents are probably the only people I know who I cannot even fathom coming out to.

See this is another part for me, I'm Bi...or something I don't know because I've never had sex but I know what I'm attracted to.

My mom is totally okay with it just wants me to be happy, my dad on the other hand cites old testament(he was raised southern baptist and Catholic) pretty much whenever the topic comes up, don't believe trans people are people.

I mean it's mind boggling.

Especially as a Lutheran Christian.

Give it time

It won't be a civil war, it will be a world war, and the atrocities committed will be largely ignored.
 

Scarecrow

Member
Just fyi, I live in oklahoma and people were giving me the same crap when Obama was elected. We lived through Nixon man. Tyler. Buchanan. Johnson. Fuck, Bush 43. It's going to be okay. We've had bad presidents, terrible one's even. It doesn't mean civil war is coming.

Yep. If a cw2 was going to happen, it would've happened in the 60s during Nam. We're gonna get through this.
 
I don't really understand removing these people from your lives instead of just berating them/arguing until they remove you.

Best case scenario you convince them they're wrong or give them pause/something to think about it, worst case they block/detest you, which was going to happen anyway.
 
I don't really understand removing these people from your lives instead of just berating them/arguing until they remove you.

Best case scenario you convince them they're wrong or give them pause/something to think about it, worst case they block/detest you, which was going to happen anyway.

Wouldn't you get tired of arguing with rocks?
 
I feel you. My former room mate and former best friends pulled a similar move, though it was gradual over time, and then dramatically as soon as Trumlp won the election. I knew the guy since high school, which was a small rural town outside of Austin, and he always seemed like a decent guy, minus being overly religious, believing the end times shit, and the Left Behind movie with Kirk Cameron made him wet. I just figured he really liked Kirk Cameron.

Anyhow, fast forward to a few years later and he just increased in how conservative he was, trying to bring me into the fold. I joined his college Republican groups and would act usually as the pessimistic some minority voice of reason. He supported me when others didn't. The amount of racist bullshit I had to endure was insane.

Fast forward to the election. This is a friend who did not support Trump and admitted Trump was a racist, whom he personally didn't care for, but... and there it is. Less than 24 hours after the election 'You have to support Trump' and that I was damned by God if I did not. Soon after? The racist shit Trump would say, he would say. What did I do? Well he was my room mate as mentioned, and behind on his rent. I evicted him and personally threw his shit off the balcony. Fuck him and fuck these racist Republican pieces of shit. At least this election showed who people really were.
 

thetrin

Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Threads like this make me so mad, especially when it's family members. My dad actually used to be fairly socially conservative, but over the years has become more liberal. Dude is 65 and woke af.

My mom is accepting, but still pretty conservative in certain ways. We're brown, so no one is gonna become a Nazi around here, but there's still an anti-LGBTQ streak that my extended family might succumb to.
 
More like we're going to lose this without a fight because they've already taken over.

This is the correct answer.

Guys, no, C'mon.

1. They haven't "taken over" anything. They're at a period of heightened influence compared to the last half-century. Those in actual power are proving too inept and ineffectual to actually impose any fascist policies.

And even if they had:

2.
french3.jpg


The attitude is just letting them take over. Remember the badasses in the pic above and be like them!
 

Glasshole

Banned
Been there, done that. My brother is an immigrant and suffering from "I'm the exception" syndrome, also known as "one of the good ones" bullshit. Is being used by the political far right in this country for their purposes and will be dropped as soon as he stops being useful (by being the quota foreigner). Believes we should either let all Syrians kill each other or just nuke the place ourselves. Europe should sink all refugee boats in the mediterranean, all that jazz.

Dad is similar, although not as crass. Keeps flip-flopping between "Trump is great!" and "I never said Trump is great".

Family dinners are fun. I studied political sciences, am left leaning, back up all my points with data and somehow I'm the idiot, the idealist and I'll "change my viewpoint when you get older and wiser".

I don't see myself having much to do with my family after I move out this year.
 
If they are anything like some of my relatives who support Trump, they were always like this. You just did not see it, or they feel more embolden by the Trump victory.
 

dottme

Member
EDIT: it hurts because my father is also a racist now, when he wasn't before. Is more or less fine being called a neonazi, he'll get angry but he won't disagree.
After calling everyone nazi, you shouldn't be surprised that the "nazi" word doesn't cary any meaning anymore.
It has been used and abused to shock people. But it has killed any meaning associated with it.
 
Don't listen to anyone that says 'nothing you can do about it', 'just let them go'.

No. Argue with them. Let them know that it's not ok. Ask them why. Discuss.

Ffs
 
Take the entirety of the history of human history, and the the last 70 years of peace among the major powers would represent less than 1%.
For more than the 99% of the time that human beings have existed, the default experience has been to kill anyone who isn't in your nation, kingdom or culture.
Even with everything that is going on in the world today of awful things, this is still the most peaceful or prosperous time there has ever been.
As far as we know, there has never been (at least since the birth of agriculture) so little misery and pain.
Don't lose sight of how amazing today, relative to every other period in history.

People become walking emblems of hate when society doesn't make sense anymore. When people perceive the social constructs to be disintegrating, they start having extremist thoughts, and that is what you see.
Look to that democracy is leaving millions of people unsatisfied and only a purge as people have desired in many countries can absolve them.
It's not because Nazism is a ideology that specifically attracts people with alluring policies- It's just a good catch phrase that has a lot of symbolic power.
Usually when you are dealing with people who are fed up and angry, they like to feel big and strong, and what better way than to make people fear you by waving your guns and offensive symbols.
People don't notice you in real, didn't get enough hugs, things not working out in your career.
Can't really pinpoint why this unsatisfaction and uncertainty and anxiety is enveloping you. Easier to round out your resentment on something concrete like hating a group of people (jews, women, muslims, liberals, whatever).
That's all it is. You've never met a Nazi who has had a fulfilling life. You've never met a racist who is genuinely happy, because that doesn't exist. A hate filled ideology feeds on people whose lives absolutely suck, as their own misery is the only thing that can drown out the total idiocy of their beliefs.

I believe that many of these Neo Nazis deep down know what they are saying is bullshit, which is why they seek groups to reinforce the beliefs they so desperately want to cling to. Reaffirmation, confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance. It is always the same shit. It is always illogical, and it is always a belief system that runs on fear, hate, anxiety and feelings of inadequacy.

When Nationalism rose and was extremely popular in Europe 90-100 years ago, it too was because many peoples lives didn't work anymore.
The industrial demands of the 20th century displaced millions of people who had no desire to work in the cities. Nationalism becomes a call to turn back the clock. Strong men can lead them back to a better time to a world they understood.
Most people don't want to learn new life skills or be told to adopt to a new life. Immigrants and refugees and minorities always bear the blame. they always represent the wind of change, and therefore its easy to blame them.

Lastly, the terror campaigns have been effective. ISIS and Al Qaeda has achieved their objectives in baiting the western powers into conflict. They wanted the US to go into Afghanistan and Iraq to win un-winnable war.
They wanted Europe and US main populations to tear themselves apart over fear and disorganization from the terror attacks that have been running rampant since 9/11.
So terror has won. It has been super effective and played a easily manipulative western culture that overwhelmingly doesn't stop and think about the motivation of the attackers, but instead respond with emotional fueled anger.
If you want a canary in the coalmine example that is emblematic of all of this, look at Barbara Lee, and the many many many thousands of death threats she received for being the only sane person, meanwhile a vast majority of the US population along with a sweeping coalition of democrats and republicans collectively got baited with a war fervor.

It was not understandable then, and it's not understandable now, and the fact of the matter is that there is still total denial about the war crimes that has happened, the lack of accountability, the refusal to admit responsibility or clean up or rebuild after countless bombing raids. When you go to war and turn countries into failed states, it has sweeping consequences that create external disasters through a ripple effect.

A lot of this was a long time coming. A lot of the destabilization in the east has been underway for many decades, and so in humanitarian refugee crisis and among guerilla terror warfare against existing populations, it really is not that big of surprise that we are here today. >99% of human history suggests that the way human beings respond to these sorts of conflicts is through war, annihilation and total destruction.
Don't forget that the last 70 years post WW2 are completely unique unprecedented.
The US is not like any world power there has been before. It does bad things and respond with selfish interests, but it is not like the empires of the past.


The way you absolve ignorance is through exposure. It is not a coincidence that a lot of those who dislike immigrants and minorities are those who engage the least with them. They only have hate mongering media outlets to create their entire world view, so that is all they see. In Europe virtually all news we get about the middle east is negative. You don't see a news report that mentions islam or muslims without words like; terror, war, suicide bomber, jihad, caliphate, extremist, infidels. The connotation is so strong that people are deeply afraid of them.

So there the solution is to absolve people of ignorance, and that is done through exposure. If you study articles and testimonials from former KKK and Neo Nazis, the paradigme shift of how people abandon that way of thinking is almost all the same. It's not that punching them or throwing rocks at them makes them not believe it. Most of them who get into closer contact with the people whom they hate, end up being the catalyst that makes them doubt their own ideology.

And that has been a pretty established idea that psychologists have been trying to ring home for more than half a century- People are a lot of the time not going to change their opinion over outside stimuli (arguments, logical facts, peer pressure, threats). In fact, it is often shown to be detrimental and make them double down, because human beings have a natural affinity towards resisting things they feel is being pressured on them.
The solution is to make them realize itself that what they believe is bullshit, and the best way to do that is to not do what they want you to do. They feed of the controversity, the outrage and people on the liberal flank to engage them, fight them and prove their false ideas about how they are just as violent and that they are hypocrites who cannot preach their liberal ideas. The entire idea is to drag them down to their own level so they can feel a higher sense of moral superiority. That's what gives them power, and thats what they count on.

It also energizes them when video leaks of a trump supporter being curb stomped or beaten half to death. It sort of feeds into their false talking points and allows them to continually take things out of context. Essentially it ends up helping them, and just like the anxious and fearful conservatives who embrace the nationalism in all forms, it's based on that people put their own feelings above standing back and thinking this through and about why exactly people believe what they believe, and what they want.
A reasoning can be false. A belief can be fake. But nothing is unmitigated or unmotivated without a long long list of things that lead up to that point. In my opinion, if you're going to reduce the current climate to a simplistic good vs evil scenario where you clap yourself on the back, you've not fully grasped the entirety of what lead us to this point.



Ultimately, I believe what betrays conservative thinking and what makes them so much more dangerous, is that their world view is based around pessimism and what could wrong. Fear and Anxiety stick in their world view a lot more forcibly than in liberals, and that requires a reframing of engagement with them. This is documented and proven again on again, on a deep psychological level. As the link shows, researchers were able to convince conservatives to see climate change differently, when they reframed the debate around climate change being a threat to American Soverignity. Instead of engaging with slander, labels and party lines, they engaged them on their sense of patriotism and engaged them on a playing field that they understand on a different psychological level.

If people cannot understand the point you're communicating, then the communication has to be altered in a way that can be understood, but that is unlikely to happen as long as both sides condemn each other in deadlock. There is no desire to understand either sides viewpoint because both sides deem the other side iredeemable and deranged.
But you do not exercise influence in others (on a personal or external level) by wanting to be understood and not wanting to understand others. There is value in roleplaying exactly how they perceive their fear and anxiety to play out. If you't, you cannot bypass. And to bypass you need to mir the conversation in a vacuum of talking points they believe in. You're not really getting there by calling anyone a nazi and then thinking you've achieved something.
I'd rather see someone try and exercise influence by appealing to their patriotism, sense of freedom and protecting those who will not interfere with their way of life, to make themselves, realize that they are on the side of muslims and the very country they come from, is based on ideas that protect immigrants.
It's not an easy process now that 60% of Americans get the majority of their news from facebook (echo chamber reinforced feedback loops). It's going to take a lot of positive examples to make them doubt their beliefs they've acculimated over the last +16 years on a daily basis. It's a war of cultural feel good news.
 

Manzanas

Neo Member
I made a Hitler mii on my Wii 10 years ago and thought it was hilarious. Does that make me a Nazi too?
People have stupid humor when they are young.

I think it's completely stupid to label someone a Nazi because of a Steam username. Maybe you should ask her about it instead of jumping to conclusions.

If it turns out she is what you think, then I'm sorry to hear that. Sucks about your dad too. Maybe let him know that his beliefs hurt you and make you feel disappointed in him as a father.
 
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