Completely different. Drug dealers put up with the calculated risk of being jailed because of the incredible profits. People who share pirated games make nothing, and people who download them gain what, $50? If there is a legitimate threat of being heavily fined or jailed piracy will drop dramatically because there simply isn't enough reward for the risk.Narcosis said:
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Something HAS to be done about PC gaming piracy. But what?
- Thread starter Borys
- Start date
If MS gave a shit they would produce a component for DirectX that would provide secure installations. They already have a rich DRM component for Windows Media, they can easily leverage it for games. The problem I suspect is that MS wants PC gaming to die as the royalties and licensing fees they collect on 360 games far outweighs what they receive from "open" PC gaming, so why bother keeping a money leak like PC gaming alive.
Maybe they tried to start something with GFW, but the Vista only push completely cocked things up.
Maybe they tried to start something with GFW, but the Vista only push completely cocked things up.
hydragonwarrior
Member
Kuro Madoushi said:
I'm pretty sure even if that game only cost 10 dollars, they would still pirate it anyway.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Chairman Yang's Possible Solution To Piracy:
Could dongles be a solution? Hear me out. I don't mean dongles in the way they've been implemented in the past. Those were easily bypassable by just using a crack and making the software not check for the dongle.
What I'm proposing is a dongle that actually performs certain hardware functions that a game relies on. The game itself would have various functions built into its graphics rendering that rely on the dongle to perform. In other words, the dongle would be a super-cheap, weak graphics card of sorts, customized to each game.
Pirates would have a tough time bypassing this. They could disable the dongle checks, but then the game wouldn't run anyways because the computer couldn't do the ultra-specialized functions that the game code would rely on. They could try to emulate the dongle functions, but that would take a prohibitive amount of time.
Okay, so I know my solution can't be as easy as it seems, but I'm not enough of a tech-guy to know why. What's wrong with it? Anyone care to comment on it?
Could dongles be a solution? Hear me out. I don't mean dongles in the way they've been implemented in the past. Those were easily bypassable by just using a crack and making the software not check for the dongle.
What I'm proposing is a dongle that actually performs certain hardware functions that a game relies on. The game itself would have various functions built into its graphics rendering that rely on the dongle to perform. In other words, the dongle would be a super-cheap, weak graphics card of sorts, customized to each game.
Pirates would have a tough time bypassing this. They could disable the dongle checks, but then the game wouldn't run anyways because the computer couldn't do the ultra-specialized functions that the game code would rely on. They could try to emulate the dongle functions, but that would take a prohibitive amount of time.
Okay, so I know my solution can't be as easy as it seems, but I'm not enough of a tech-guy to know why. What's wrong with it? Anyone care to comment on it?
Kuro Madoushi said:
Thats a really uneducated view given that in my own actual experience when pirates were faced with an "uncrackable" version on one of our titles they resorted to having to purchase the title.
This does not mean that all people trying to pirate the game purchased it, but some did.
Basically, you are wrong.
Kabouter said:
Yeah, because the RIAA and MPAA's actions have totally curbed pirating. And that's ignoring, you know, the rest of the world.
Anywho, my best guess is a mix of 1 and 2. Mostly 1, but give it "license" every time you log in.
Let's say if you run it once you get 5 days. 5 days to be away from a connection, to travel, to be on your bus. After the 5 days you gotta auth again. Hell if they dedicate it they can even have a system where if you KNOW you're gonna be away (or something happens that prevents you from getting to the net) you can email, call, an deal with a REAL PERSON who can extend your auth. Who knows.
That said, something needs to be done. Stale as I find it nowadays, there is a place for PCs and PC games, and it fucking kills me seeing the state it's all in.
neight said:
Nice stealth edit.
Judging by the amount of Steam FUD that's posted here, there are more closeted pirates than you'd like to think posting to this forum. Most of the Steam FUD is shit made up by pirates to try to justify their hatred of something that shuts them down.
cjelly said:
So that might translate into roughly 5,000 additional sales based on "As we believe that we are decreasing the number of pirates downloading the game with our DRM fixes, combining the increased sales number together with the decreased downloads, we find 1 additional sale for every 1,000 less pirated downloads. Put another way, for every 1,000 pirated copies we eliminated, we created 1 additional sale." Of course maybe thats really half a million more sales.
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17350
I'm not so sure piracy really is the issue in most these cases though it still sucks to see you game get pirated to such extremes.
Chairman Yang said:
While ok in theory, I'd imagine it'd be a battle of emulation vs. cost.
Anything cheap enough to throw in each and every box is gonna be weak. Period. As specialized as a process might be, with super weak hardware you'll likely be able to emulate those actions.
Plus, where would that leave DD?
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
acm2000 said:
How much would those sorts of dongles really cost? If mass-produced (with some tweakable settings at manufacture), couldn't they be manufactured really cheaply? They'd be like glorified calculator chips. If Nintendo could plop a Super-FX chip into each Starfox cartridge, would the cost really have to be that bad?
WoWcraft said:
I think he was just trying to be funny by using the 360 since it has a larger install base. On the topic at hand, there is no easy solution to the piracy problem. New warez groups pop up every now and then while the long term groups are still about. I'll still support the PC platform as long as they churn out quality games like CoH, TF2 and Sins of an Empire.
zoku88 said:
I agree, building a PC is really simple nowadays, everything is modular.
Flooding the distribution channels would only work if it can be sustained and be done on a large scale. One would have to, imo, flood the channels enough to literally outnumber the actual pirated software distribution through sheer brute force. I'm not sure why that would be illegal; just because the torrent sites may not be readily open to legal prosecution, doesn't mean it's legally protected either.
I wonder if there are ways to corrupt Bit-torrent via uploading.
About dropping the price of PC games: they are already $10 to $20 cheaper than console games. Hell, in Poland the same multiplatform title costs 2 TIMES MORE on 360/ PS3 than on PC. Besides FREE is still cheaper than $20. Don't underestimate the cheapness of warezing fucks. They would pirate PC games even if they costed $5.
About my 360 comment: hey if they don't make money SOMEWHERE then they will close doors. I'd rather play Fallout 4 or The Elder Scrolls V on an Xbox than not play it at all because the developer has gone bankrupt.
About closing down pirate sites: I'm all for this but if Hollywood and RIAA couldn't do it with MP3s and AVIs then I don't see some PC developers doing it either.
About my 360 comment: hey if they don't make money SOMEWHERE then they will close doors. I'd rather play Fallout 4 or The Elder Scrolls V on an Xbox than not play it at all because the developer has gone bankrupt.
About closing down pirate sites: I'm all for this but if Hollywood and RIAA couldn't do it with MP3s and AVIs then I don't see some PC developers doing it either.
It's obviously destroying the PC market, but I'm not sure I like your examples Borys. Company of Heroes (I assume) comes from that GFW interview. I was actually surprised how low the patch
layer ratio was. It's obviously gonna be significantly more than 1:1 even if everyone is a legit buyer. Titan's Quest is a D&D RPG, isn't it? Do kids even play D&D anymore? Serious question. It seems like it's appeal took a huge hit by advancements in video games. And if you don't know the D&D rulesets, D&D RPGs are an exercise in frustration. As time goes by, attrition is gonna take hold. Supreme Commander is way too convoluted and it too doesn't bring new players in either. It fights to retain a diminishing player pool. UT3's demo was awful. I'm not taking anyone's impressions that's it's better than that. Most people I'm sure are the same.
layer ratio was. It's obviously gonna be significantly more than 1:1 even if everyone is a legit buyer. Titan's Quest is a D&D RPG, isn't it? Do kids even play D&D anymore? Serious question. It seems like it's appeal took a huge hit by advancements in video games. And if you don't know the D&D rulesets, D&D RPGs are an exercise in frustration. As time goes by, attrition is gonna take hold. Supreme Commander is way too convoluted and it too doesn't bring new players in either. It fights to retain a diminishing player pool. UT3's demo was awful. I'm not taking anyone's impressions that's it's better than that. Most people I'm sure are the same.What Stardock uses seems to work reasonably well - internet activation, a la Windows. Every time you download a patch, you need to re-activate your game over the internet.
Of course if you change computers you have to email Stardock, and want to resell it when you're done, you're out of luck (some consider that a feature, not a problem).
Of course if you change computers you have to email Stardock, and want to resell it when you're done, you're out of luck (some consider that a feature, not a problem).
WoWcraft said:
Because the PS3 development environment is radically different than the PC and 360?
Porting a PC game to the 360 is almost as easy as going to File > Save As. The original Xbox was the same way. PC developers like Gas Powered Games, Petroglyph, etc. can instantly get their PC games up and running on a 360 without having to learn a whole new architecture like the PS3.
In fact, some PC developers who would never publish a console game actually use the 360 in their office as something of a portable PC. They'll do a quick build of their game on the 360 if they need to show it to someone in a meeting instead of lugging a PC tower over. I've seen this myself working in the industry.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
SnakeXs said:
But I see the difficulty of people emulating stuff now (even really old things like the NES sound chip), so would pirates really be able to write emulators quickly enough to have an impact?
I'm also not well-versed on emulation, so maybe someone could answer this: what sort of documentation and information do you need to emulate? If the game's source code, the dongle's specific hardware functions, and all associated specs are kept secret, wouldn't it be a lot harder?
SnakeXs said:
DD wouldn't benefit from the protection, but companies could still release the games online if they wanted to. They'd be no worse off.
Kabouter said:
It is, really. Very limited means is funny. RIAA/MPAA are not some tiny groups. They're major, as are the industries they represent. They didn't make a dent because the wall was so huge, not because they didn't hit hard enough.
Anything beyond what the RIAA/MPAA tried would bring into question global and civil liberties.
Tracking EVERYTHING you do on your PC? Not gonna happen. Disallowing you to do certain things on your PC? Not gonna happen. Shutting down all forms of pirating? Just the thought makes me laugh.
Piracy protection is 100% useless now, copying a friends DVD is probably more effort than getting a cracked torrent.
Piracy is here to stay and more incentives need to be made for legit customers.
I think a number of things will really have to be looked at about the culture of piracy on PC.
One, cracks are oftenly used by legit owners because after an install they dont want to have to put the DVD in the case so just let people install and run without a DVD.
Getting the message out to PC gaming communities that it is having an effect to raise the awareness of the effect the now large piracy base is having.
Digital distribution with cheaper prices (atleast prices lower than the retail, yes steam you).
Demos and trials day one for all games with a hook into unlocking the full game for a fee there and then.
It also my depend on the type of game and community games are focused at on the platform to take piracy into account. Games that require sever side authentication and are focused on online play (WoW) seems to also be a solution.
The problem will be if publishers who focus on PC only stat to die and Multiplatform games are discurage a PC port due to low profit margins on PC or people who may by on other platforms dont because they will get the free PC version.
Again Piracy will never go away but if this generation of PC gamers are used to never paying the future is looking pretty grim.
Piracy is here to stay and more incentives need to be made for legit customers.
I think a number of things will really have to be looked at about the culture of piracy on PC.
One, cracks are oftenly used by legit owners because after an install they dont want to have to put the DVD in the case so just let people install and run without a DVD.
Getting the message out to PC gaming communities that it is having an effect to raise the awareness of the effect the now large piracy base is having.
Digital distribution with cheaper prices (atleast prices lower than the retail, yes steam you).
Demos and trials day one for all games with a hook into unlocking the full game for a fee there and then.
It also my depend on the type of game and community games are focused at on the platform to take piracy into account. Games that require sever side authentication and are focused on online play (WoW) seems to also be a solution.
The problem will be if publishers who focus on PC only stat to die and Multiplatform games are discurage a PC port due to low profit margins on PC or people who may by on other platforms dont because they will get the free PC version.
Again Piracy will never go away but if this generation of PC gamers are used to never paying the future is looking pretty grim.
BrainZEROX
Member
That's a solution I would strengthen. If you have to authenticate on a per session basis make it so you have to download the executable part of the soft. You buy the data on the CD and you download the exe from secured servers when the game session begins. Of course the exe is secured and only valid for the current session and is never stored on the harddisk, only in memory with regular check for consistency during the game session.Borys said:
If it works don't forget to lower the software price... OK? Also don't forget to give up this protection system 2 years later so people will be able to enjoy their game years after.
Pros:
+ great security...
Cons:
- ...at a great cost I presume (secure servers, research & developpement, etc)
- every hacker in the world will try to break it, it's a challenge they won't miss so you'll need really smart people to make such a process really safe.
- your process may be secured but what about the OS it's running on... Beware of the man in the middle.
In the end, I don't think it's a winnable war... It's always easier to abuse a system than building it. Microsoft needs to provide a secure environment for softwares, it's too easy to parse memory for ciphering keys.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
acm2000 said:
That was just Nintendo's dickery, not some huge cost increase. The NA versions of games with special chips were comparable in price to normal games.
1-D_FTW said:It's obviously destroying the PC market, but I'm not sure I like your examples Borys. Company of Heroes (I assume) comes from that GFW interview. I was actually surprised how low the patch
Titan's Quest has nothing to do with D&D. It's a Diablo style hack and slash.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Davidion said:
I know about those dongles, but as far as I know, none have been made in the way I've proposed. I'm suggesting not just a dongle-check, but the actual game code relying on the dongle hardware to perform ultra-specialized functions.
If any company has used dongles in the way I've suggested, please let me know.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
I haven't bought a PC game since... uh... Doom 3 probably. Haven't downloaded any either. I upgraded my rig for Doom 3. It was a pretty sour experience for me since the game was underwhelming and even with the upgrades it didn't run well. Never bothered to game on the PC since then, except for really oldschool stuff.
Just yesterday I helped my girlfriend install the Sims 2 and got her a video card so it would run well.
The solution? Probably to give up the ghost to be honest. Piracy is a huge issue and can wreck releases or companies when it comes to PC gaming... but one of the reasons why it's such a big issue is that the industry has been pretty unstable as is.
Consider that ten years ago, the FPS was a huge genre on the PC and virtually non-existent on consoles. Five years ago, FPS existed on both consoles and PCs in equal measure, with the PC releases being technically miles ahead of the console releases. Now, FPS is primarily a console genre in terms of releases and sales, and while the PC occasionally has a slight edge technically, it's not orders of magnitude. It's easier for console manufacturers to start supporting KBM than it is to try to draw the genre back on to the PC.
Flash games are huge and great on PC, but in terms of actually monetizing them, the bigger winners have been cell phones, handhelds, and now XBLA. We're now at the stage where XBLA receives ports of hot PC flash-esque games. Five years from now, I suspect simultaneous releases and a much greater emphasis on consoles.
There are three main genres that haven't really shifted to being console primarily. 1) MMORPGs; partly because of a lack of hardware until 2005, partly because of difficulties with pay-to-play systems, partly because the demand isn't there. The first two have been solved. Now it's just a matter of interface issues being solved and demand being driven. 2) RTSs; the stopping block here is interface. I have no idea if this will ever be resolved. 3) Western/C-RPGs; I think the issue here might be just that as a genre it's pretty niche and the audience is pretty captive on the PC.
I have no idea what can be done to stop piracy in order to save PC gaming, but I know that if PC gaming companies want to make money in spite of piracy, their best chance is the consoles.
Just yesterday I helped my girlfriend install the Sims 2 and got her a video card so it would run well.
The solution? Probably to give up the ghost to be honest. Piracy is a huge issue and can wreck releases or companies when it comes to PC gaming... but one of the reasons why it's such a big issue is that the industry has been pretty unstable as is.
Consider that ten years ago, the FPS was a huge genre on the PC and virtually non-existent on consoles. Five years ago, FPS existed on both consoles and PCs in equal measure, with the PC releases being technically miles ahead of the console releases. Now, FPS is primarily a console genre in terms of releases and sales, and while the PC occasionally has a slight edge technically, it's not orders of magnitude. It's easier for console manufacturers to start supporting KBM than it is to try to draw the genre back on to the PC.
Flash games are huge and great on PC, but in terms of actually monetizing them, the bigger winners have been cell phones, handhelds, and now XBLA. We're now at the stage where XBLA receives ports of hot PC flash-esque games. Five years from now, I suspect simultaneous releases and a much greater emphasis on consoles.
There are three main genres that haven't really shifted to being console primarily. 1) MMORPGs; partly because of a lack of hardware until 2005, partly because of difficulties with pay-to-play systems, partly because the demand isn't there. The first two have been solved. Now it's just a matter of interface issues being solved and demand being driven. 2) RTSs; the stopping block here is interface. I have no idea if this will ever be resolved. 3) Western/C-RPGs; I think the issue here might be just that as a genre it's pretty niche and the audience is pretty captive on the PC.
I have no idea what can be done to stop piracy in order to save PC gaming, but I know that if PC gaming companies want to make money in spite of piracy, their best chance is the consoles.
Chairman Yang said:
How can you keep it a secret if it's on the market? Reverse engineering is how lots of emulation is done. These guys don't have hardware manuals and stuff. They throw shit at a wall and see what sticks and work from there.
Okay, it's a wee bit more complicated than that, but you get my point.
Chairman Yang said:
Most DD is breakable, and in the face of the usual, "easy" way being taken away they would attack this much harder, and find a way.
It's a sad circle, really.
I find it funny that you would list X360 specifically. If one console was more compatible with PC gaming than the other it seems like it would certainly be the PS3. PS3 has a harddrive, is laxer as far as keyboard and mouse implementation, online multiplayer is done more in line with how it is on PC, and user-created PC content has been moved over to the PS3. Moving game development from PC to X360 may be easier from a programming perspective, but like I said with all the similarities PS3 shares with PC gaming I just thought it was odd you'd say X360 specifically rather "focus on console development".
Not at the end of 2008 imo.VaLiancY said:
MS slashing profit gains on indy and PS3 install base rising. Point is gone. PS3 is becoming a money maker.Borys said:
It's not radically different. It's if you want to use 100% of the cell, go ahead. And if you want to, there are dev tools constantly being pushed out. And changing your entire game to fit controllers makes it an entirely different game than you intended it for PC KB+M.ManaByte said:
But taking the fact that you completely remove PC development out of the picture, a focused PS3 development from the start removes those kinds of excuses.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
SnakeXs said:
Thanks for the info. However, that takes quite a long time, doesn't it? If it took a month for a hacker to emulate a dongle for a single game, I doubt most pirate groups would even bother.
The donglemakers would also presumably design their specialized functions to be difficult to emulate easily, and hard to figure out by trial and error.
SnakeXs said:
Agreed, but my point is that those who chose DD would be no worse off than today. Those who eschewed DD would be a lot better off.
Dali said:
Again, a PC developer really doesn't have to spend much extra money or effort to do a 360 title. Moving to the PS3 would require a very large learning stage, new people hired to program for the system, and a lot more money spent in the process.
If for some reason all PCs ceased to exist on Monday, PC game developers could be moving their games over to the X360 within a couple days.