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Sonic the Hedgehog 4 - Wii/PS3/360; downloadable episodic release - [Update: $15?]

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Deleted member 30609

Unconfirmed Member
Alpha_eX said:
My point exactly. I'd like to know why Sega are leaving it as it is and just ignoring the biggest complaint about the game. It really isn't a big thing to fix, it won't change level design or anything, it'll just make everyone happy and result in more sales.
I would imagine every single bit of every level is structured with Sonic's current movement model in mind. You can't just change a few variables and cross your fingers. If you change something like that without completely rethinking the levels your game is broken.

I can't believe I'm defending this game. Well, I'm not defending what they chose to make, I'm just defending the team against some of the ignorance here. Why don't they just turn the slider down, right, lolol!
 

Alpha_eX

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Rez said:
I would imagine every single bit of every level is structured with Sonic's current movement model in mind. You can't just change a few variables and cross your fingers. If you change something like that without completely rethinking the levels your game is broken.

I can't believe I'm defending this game. Well, I'm not defending what they chose to make, I'm just defending the team against some of the ignorance here. Why don't they just turn the slider down, right, lolol!
What difference will it make stopping in mid air and naturally coming to a stop. You'll still be able to time the jumps, it's not changing something like collision areas or physics, it's just preventing the instant stop.

EDIT: You know what, it's not even worth wasting time bringing things like this up. Sega don't care and will release it anyway, it'll sell enough and they'll do it again. *sigh*
 

jman2050

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May 18, 2005
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Alpha_eX said:
I thought Sonic CD Port was using the Retro Engine, I assume that was built ground up?
From my understanding the Sonic CD iPhone game is a straight port from the actual code, completely separate from his Retro Engine stuff. I'm not entirely sure the 3rd gen iPod could handle something like Retro Sonic anyway at full speed.
 

Diablohead

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Jun 4, 2006
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Alpha_eX said:
What difference will it make stopping in mid air and naturally coming to a stop. You'll still be able to time the jumps, it's not changing something like collision areas or physics, it's just preventing the instant stop.

EDIT: You know what, it's not even worth wasting time bringing things like this up. Sega don't care and will release it anyway, it'll sell enough and they'll do it again. *sigh*
What if Mario instantly hit top running speed when you held down B instead accelerating first? It just ruins the feel which can be important to some people :p
 

Alpha_eX

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jman2050 said:
From my understanding the Sonic CD iPhone game is a straight port from the actual code, completely separate from his Retro Engine stuff. I'm not entirely sure the 3rd gen iPod could handle something like Retro Sonic anyway at full speed.
From the video, "This version of the game was actually re-written from scratch"
 

jman2050

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May 18, 2005
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Alpha_eX said:
What difference will it make stopping in mid air and naturally coming to a stop. You'll still be able to time the jumps, it's not changing something like collision areas or physics, it's just preventing the instant stop.
Even if that's correct, the developers can't just assume that a small change like that will be kosher. Everything that's done to the game is tested to hell and back by necessity, and that takes time.

Once your game reaches alpha/beta state, it's pretty much WYSIWYG from a design standpoint. The fact that the dev team of this game needed 3-6 extra months just to add two new levels and make what seem to be very minor changes attests to that.

Alpha_eX said:
From the video, "This version of the game was actually re-written from scratch"
Which means it was ported from the original code. At least, knowing Taxman, he's smart enough to rewrite based on what's actually there instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, unless he's making a full-on new game out of it, in which case all bets are off.
 

jman2050

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May 18, 2005
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Alpha_eX said:
It just doesn't feel fun to play no more, weird floaty Sonic made me put down the controller and just walk away from a game i'd been waiting years and years to play.
Wait, so Sonic still stops on a dime in the air if you let go of a direction like in Rush?

Does Sega not understand how goddamn stupid that is?
 

Alpha_eX

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jman2050 said:
Wait, so Sonic still stops on a dime in the air if you let go of a direction like in Rush?

Does Sega not understand how goddamn stupid that is?
This is why I came in here to post and people started saying I was being stupid. I assumed extra months was for more than just level changes, Sega said or at least heavily hinted they would fix that problem, and they haven't.

Weird floaty mid air stopping control still in.
Annoying falling animation state when spin dashing off a vertial ramp too.

:(
 

RubyEclipse

Sega of America
Mar 25, 2009
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www.sega.com
OnPoint said:
I couldn't agree more about the story. Less is absolutely more and will hopefully remain that way in each episode that gets put out.

I do have a question, though. I know you said you were lobbying to get some things changed a while back, but we seem to be in a place where we've lost track of what has and what hasn't been tweaked. Aside from the two re-designed levels and running animation, what else is different in the final build?

I'd like to know if the price is actually going to be $15 as well, but I'm sure you can't talk about that. After you reveal it, will you be around to discuss the decision? I'm curious and would like to shoot a few questions your way.
Thank you - I think you'll enjoy what we've got planned for the future too then.

I've posted two update blogs so far with some of the changes we've made - as linked above, you can find the first one here and the 1.5 update here.
 

Alpha_eX

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It's annoying to read all those updates and not see a fix for the biggest problems. Is there a reason they haven't been addressed or even acknowledged?

I like the idea of a world map, can't wait to see how that looks. Also, the Lost Labryinth level looks and sounds much better now, I like the torch, reminds me of the Pyramid Level in Sonic & Knuckles with those ghosts.
 

APZonerunner

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The sad thing is even at this price point it'll sell; average Modern Warfare 2 playing casual gamer who used to own Sonic 1/2/3K as a kid will see this advertised on the front page of XBLA - it'll probably be the first they've seen of it - and buy it blind.
 
Jan 7, 2009
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APZonerunner said:
The sad thing is even at this price point it'll sell; average Modern Warfare 2 playing casual gamer who used to own Sonic 1/2/3K as a kid will see this advertised on the front page of XBLA - it'll probably be the first they've seen of it - and buy it blind.
They'll enjoy it too.

Whats more, while we have people complaining that the game included the homing attack, I feel like it would have been obliterated by the amount of people complaining if it wasn't in...
 

RubyEclipse

Sega of America
Mar 25, 2009
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Alpha_eX said:
It's annoying to read all those updates and not see a fix for the biggest problems. Is there a reason they haven't been addressed or even acknowledged?

I like the idea of a world map, can't wait to see how that looks. Also, the Lost Labryinth level looks and sounds much better now, I like the torch, reminds me of the Pyramid Level in Sonic & Knuckles with those ghosts.
I commented on the physics a few weeks ago. I originally presented it to the team and asked if we could change it, and was then told later that doing so would mean rebuilding much of the game from the ground up, which wasn't possible given the timeframe. I was looking at it originally with a "would it really be that hard?" kind of mentality, but I didn't stop to think about the many ways in which it would actually change the levels.

The new lost lab level is pretty awesome. I thought the same thing with the ghosts from Sonic and Knuckles - thankfully, none of them this time. :)
 

jman2050

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May 18, 2005
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In all honesty I am somewhat glad that it seems the dev team is actually listening to this stuff and could possibly do something about it in Episode 2. I'm also somewhat positive that they won't actually be able to do it properly :/
 
Apr 3, 2009
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SwiftSketcher said:
They'll enjoy it too.

Whats more, while we have people complaining that the game included the homing attack, I feel like it would have been obliterated by the amount of people complaining if it wasn't in...
But this was supposed to be our game. The game that the classic fans have been waiting 16 years for. 3D Sonic fans have their game coming out later this year, and in the irony to end all ironies, it looks better than Sonic 4 at the moment. What Sega didn't realize is that in trying to appeal to everyone, you end up only appealing to the 3D sonic fans.
 

Alpha_eX

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RubyEclipse said:
I commented on the physics a few weeks ago. I originally presented it to the team and asked if we could change it, and was then told later that doing so would mean rebuilding much of the game from the ground up, which wasn't possible given the timeframe. I was looking at it originally with a "would it really be that hard?" kind of mentality, but I didn't stop to think about the many ways in which it would actually change the levels.

The new lost lab level is pretty awesome. I thought the same thing with the ghosts from Sonic and Knuckles - thankfully, none of them this time. :)
I'm having trouble understanding why it would require most of the game to be rebuilt to change the way a single object stops, but that's just me and my experience of programming. Got an example of how it would change a level, I can only assume it'll make it easier for new players to time jumps.

Also, any chance of it being fixed for Episode 2, change it, then design the levels?

The ghosts from S&K were quite scary back in the day, much worse than the Mask guys from SMB2. Kinda glad to hear you guys haven't put them back in actually. :lol

EDIT: The homing attack isn't bad at all, I quite like the idea of it. The only bad thing about it is that you have to wait a second or two after hitting an enemy before you can jump to the next one.
 

Vorg

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jman2050 said:
In all honesty I am somewhat glad that it seems the dev team is actually listening to this stuff and could possibly do something about it in Episode 2. I'm also somewhat positive that they won't actually be able to do it properly :/
Are they really listening? I'm sorry, RubyEclipse but I don't see why you you'd rather launch something half assed and that the fans don't like to scrapping the whole thing and redoing it properly. I know there are costs involved but why would Sega just rather perpetuate the infamous Sonic Cycle instead of just starting over? What's the point of calling it Sonic 4 then if the people who were expecting it to live up to its name know before hand that it won't?

I just don't get it. Why not fix the effing cycle once and for all instead of patching it up to not be as bad?
 

DeVeAn

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acidspunk said:
Are they really listening? I'm sorry, RubyEclipse but I don't see why you you'd rather launch something half assed and that the fans don't like to scrapping the whole thing and redoing it properly. I know there are costs involved but why would Sega just rather perpetuate the infamous Sonic Cycle instead of just starting over? What's the point of calling it Sonic 4 then if the people who were expecting it to live up to its name know before hand that it won't?

I just don't get it. Why not fix the effing cycle once and for all instead of patching it up to not be as bad?
I don't we will see a "Genesis" Sonic unless they got the original team in their roles to make the game.
 

OnPoint

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RubyEclipse said:
Thank you - I think you'll enjoy what we've got planned for the future too then.

I've posted two update blogs so far with some of the changes we've made - as linked above, you can find the first one here and the 1.5 update here.
I was kind of hoping there was more behind the scenes we didn't know about, but I'm glad to see you kept us totally informed.

I see your points about the physics and not having the time to change them, so I'm wondering about future episodes. Will there possibly be greater tweaks then, or is this engine pretty much where we're at?
 
Apr 3, 2009
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RubyEclipse said:
The new lost lab level is pretty awesome. I thought the same thing with the ghosts from Sonic and Knuckles - thankfully, none of them this time. :)
I'm still waiting for the Robotnik's ultimate boss form. A spinning barrel the unleashes ghosts on Sonic. Episode 2 maybe? :lol
 

btkadams

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i can't wait to play this. i know everyone's bickering is just because they want this to be the real awesome sequel to the genesis games that the title deserves to be, but so far the game updates and everything sound great. all the vids i've seen lately show the game to be pretty sick too. 15 bucks is way too much though. 10 bucks i would definitely pay.
 

Diablohead

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If ruby is doing his best then why did sega originally allow sonic 4 to become what it is and then say "can't change it, too late" to fixes, things which I would say most of the long term sonic fans out there were originally expecting from a game titled Sonic 4.

Who's smart idea was it to cake every stage in boosters and use a shitty dimps engine in the first play, anyway?
 
Apr 3, 2009
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Diablohead said:
If ruby is doing his best then why did sega originally allow sonic 4 to become what it is and then say "can't change it, too late" to fixes, things which I would say most of the long term sonic fans out there were originally expecting from a game titled Sonic 4.

Who's smart idea was it to cake every stage in boosters and use a shitty dimps engine in the first play, anyway?
Ruby isn't a developer as far as I know. I think Ruby has good intentions. I just don't think he has the final say with a lot of the stuff that goes on with the game.
 

DigiMish

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To the people still hoping that the devs will change the physics in future episodes, good luck with that - it's not going to happen.

RubyEclipse - you're doing an excellent job, it's really cool to see you posting so much here (especially on a Sunday) and relaying comments from the people here to the rest of the dev team. I'm really excited for Episode 1 because I really enjoyed the demo, and can't wait to see what you guys have in store for Episode 2!
 
May 6, 2008
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Ruby, the physics are fine.

But please PLEASE, I know this may sound minor, but can't you get them to speed up Sonic jump spin animation. It's so terribly slow and just looks plain wrong.

In all honesty, aside from that, I have no other gripes with the game.
 

Alpha_eX

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2 Minutes Turkish said:
Ruby, the physics are fine.

But please PLEASE, I know this may sound minor, but can't you get them to speed up Sonic jump spin animation. It's so terribly slow and just looks plain wrong.

In all honesty, aside from that, I have no other gripes with the game.
I second this, the jump spin animation looks really slow.

Have you played the game? The physics aren't really a problem, it's just the instant stopping that is.

I still think it is a simple fix and won't break the levels, if anyone thinks otherwise, please give an example. Removing the instant stop will just make timing jumps require more skill and by no means impossible.
 
May 6, 2008
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Alpha_eX said:
I second this, the jump spin animation looks really slow.

Have you played the game? The physics aren't really a problem, it's just the instant stopping that is.

I still think it is a simple fix and won't break the levels, if anyone thinks otherwise, please give an example. Removing the instant stop will just make timing jumps require more skill and by no means impossible.
I have played the game, and the physics are a non-issue for me. I don't even have a problem with the homing attack.

But that spin animation is just so terribly terribly slow, and needs a fix asap. And there's no way changing that would be hard to do.
 
Nov 8, 2007
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I can't believe we're having to explain basic jumping behavior to Sega. It boggles my mind. They have the old games, they have the code. How does this happen? o_O
 
Mar 1, 2007
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I think the main reason they haven't changed the mid-air stopping is that it would mess with the platforming areas they've actually designed, as well as the homing attack bridges and gimmicks. How exactly I can't really say, but I seem to remember seeing a few sections in the levels where if the player didn't stop mid-jump they'd fall off. The uncurling... I've got nothing.

And as long as Ruby's taking questions, here's a couple:

Can you give any examples of level design changes that would have to be made, if you know?

And you mentioned you fought hard to get a simple story; Were you given a preliminary story and fought to have the "offending" parts removed, or was it just something you told the developers beforehand?

On a similar note, how close are you and your coworkers to the development team? Is there any direct involvement or do you just pass on suggestions to a middle man?

And finally: Is there any possibility that the physics, mid-air stopping, uncurling, and/or animations could be fixed in upcoming episodes, or is that something you don't know/can't talk about?
 

Zen

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Jun 24, 2005
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I know it's not what we had in mind when Sega said that they'd tweak the physics, but they did alter Sonic's acceleration and weight from the leaked video to the latest build.
 

7echnicolor

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acidspunk said:
why would Sega just rather perpetuate the infamous Sonic Cycle instead of just starting over?

I just don't get it. Why not fix the effing cycle once and for all instead of patching it up to not be as bad?
Ok, what phase of the Sonic Cycle are we in right now?
 

celebi23

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My whole issue of the price is that you'll end up paying $45 for a downloadable game, created by a company with a spotty track record at best. I'm sorry, $15 is beyond what I was ok with paying. If Sega were smart, they should've been shooting for the $5-$10 range. But, it is Sega after all :lol
 
Nov 17, 2006
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celebi23 said:
My whole issue of the price is that you'll end up paying $45 for a downloadable game, created by a company with a spotty track record at best. I'm sorry, $15 is beyond what I was ok with paying. If Sega were smart, they should've been shooting for the $5-$10 range. But, it is Sega after all :lol
$15 is not that bizarre these days, though. I mean, we can lololSEGA all we want, but Konami had no trouble charging $15 for the shoddy and equally short Rocket Knight Adventures. It's an awful trend in my opinion, but this isn't just SEGA being hurf-durf, it's kind of what everyone is doing.
 

gutter_trash

Banned
Feb 4, 2005
43,889
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Segata Sanshiro said:
Actually, Sonic 2 is the only classic Sonic to have 8 worlds. Sonic 1 had 6, 2 had 8, 3 had 6, & Knuckles had like... 8, but three of those were just single levels, and CD had 7.

Total acts by game:

Sonic 1: 18
Sonic 2: 20
Sonic CD: 21
Sonic 3: 12
Sonic & Knuckles: 13

Basically, we're getting a Sonic 3-sized game. Which was half a game, lol.
but the acts in Sonic 3 and S&K are way longer to complete than the small acts in Sonic 2
 
Jan 7, 2009
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I thought the cycle only applied for bad Sonic games. This may be the 'wrong style' of Sonic gameplay, but I forget when it became a shitty game. Overpriced maybe, but not shitty.
 

ILikeFeet

Banned
Oct 12, 2009
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SwiftSketcher said:
I thought the cycle only applied for bad Sonic games. This may be the 'wrong style' of Sonic gameplay, but I forget when it became a shitty game.
no, it applies to all Sonic games. you can't know a game will be bad when they first announce it. unless you are a jaded Sonic fan. but thenagain, who isn't
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Dec 5, 2005
51,673
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7echnicolor said:
Ok, what phase of the Sonic Cycle are we in right now?
I would call Sonic 4 an example of a new type of Sonic Cycle entirely - The Sonic Mobius Strip.



It just never fucking ends.
 

Momo

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Aug 10, 2009
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SwiftSketcher said:
I thought the cycle only applied for bad Sonic games. This may be the 'wrong style' of Sonic gameplay, but I forget when it became a shitty game. Overpriced maybe, but not shitty.
The sonic cycle isnt about being a bad game, it's about being a bait and switch. This game is more of a bait and switch than anything I've seen recently (F12010 apart, but thats just on another level).
 
Nov 17, 2006
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Momo said:
The sonic cycle isnt about being a bad game, it's about being a bait and switch. This game is more of a bait and switch than anything I've seen recently (F12010 apart, but thats just on another level).
No, the Sonic Cycle is about certain fans' unusual capacity for never learning their lesson. That's the joke.
 

Ixzion

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Feb 27, 2006
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DeVeAn said:
I don't we will see a "Genesis" Sonic unless they got the original team in their roles to make the game.
It doesn't take the original team, though it would be nice.

It just takes just a HANDFUL people who actually give a damn about Sonic. Has anyone seen the video or played Sonic XG?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK_dUAK10og&feature=related

This game is not perfect by any means, but there are good reasons for this. One being that the game is/was incomplete. Another being that they're not professionals.

Here's some of their level design concepts:
http://www.williamg.plus.com/SXGWEBSITE/pics.htm

THESE are what classic Sonic levels look like.

It is the most baffling thing to believe that EVERYONE ON THE DAMN PLANET can make a classic-feeling Sonic product better than Sega can. They can do it in classic 2d with sprites AND they can do it in 3d.

I hate coming to this topic but like a trainwreck, I can't seem to stop looking at the next lie RubyEclipse is going to tell about Sonic 4 or whatever else his insect overlords tell him to say so they can get money out of the next sucker.

In a way, I'm glad that Sega pulled this stunt. Now when Sonic 5 comes out, I'll know that it's the sequel to Sonic 4.