Support NeoGAF

[HomerSimpson-Man]

Yippy skippy! All regular BR player uses hardware decoders. PS3 uses software decode via Cell. Cell allows Sony to do alot more during playback then the hardware solutions on the regualr players.

Sony had a 12bits per channel color BR playback demo around the corner to the PS3 game trailer demo station.

Well that is certainly different than what I thought. When PS2 was released the playback was a neat feature but it still was behind in quality in video output against stand alone Sony DVD my dad got for the Christmas before.

Interesting months a head.

 

[JackFrost2012]

DCharlie, I dunno, Hollywood seems to be totally taken by surprise that the fact PS3 has BR built in might mean a competitive advantage for Sony and/or the Blu-ray format. I mean, the format's far from a guaranteed success, but coming built in to PS3 has got to be a help.

Kinda surprising the rest of the Blu-ray group has had their blinders on so tight, though.

HELLO

 

[MightyHedgehog]

I've been saying this for what seem like forever now. Glad more and more are now joining on the fun!

Well, I don't think it takes much thinking on the subject to come to this conclusion...but I've been thinking this of both new formats for a long time now. Too early and too little of an improvement over what the average person will be able to really appreciate in the current DVD format. Only flag-waving CE company fans, desperate HD-enthusiasts, and crazy people think differently on this... I can, at least, understand the hype amongst the HD geeks.

 

[Wollan]

Besides visual and sound quality, what I like most about Blu-ray are the menues.
Damn the slow track based or whatever of dvds. With Blu-ray(like UMD) you get spiffy, smooth animated menues.

 

[Brofist]

I don't understand the Laserdisc comparisons. Laserdisc never became a mainstream format because of the movie prices ($100+ for a Criterion disc anyone?), and the physical disc size. and the fact that movies were all on mulitple discs which didn't make for a very convienient format. Neither BD or HD have the same inherent flaws.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

I don't understand the Laserdisc comparisons. Laserdisc never became a mainstream format because of the movie prices ($100+ for a Criterion disc anyone?), and the physical disc size. and the fact that movies were all on mulitple discs which didn't make for a very convienient format. Neither BD or HD have the same inherent flaws.

My comment is based on the belief that, like LD, the new disc formats don't offer enough compelling reasons to pay for a switch (or upgrade) from the current standard, currently DVD, for the average person. Cost to the consumer is also an issue.

It may be that BR or HD-DVD succeeds as the new mainstream format for movies, but that isn't gonna happen in the PS3 generation, IMO. It's too early, and to really take advantage of the new format, the average person would need to upgrade to an HD-capable display...which is still going slow and HD-adoption may not even reach 50% market penetration in NA, Europe, and Japan for, what seems like, another five years or so.

With DVD, at least, the benefit was obvious and immediate...and able to be near-fully taken advantage of by anyone with a color television. With DVD, you got: no more rewinding shit, near-instant access to bonus features (like interviews and the like), selectable chapters in content, multi-angles and multiple options in audio tracks and features, such as subtitles...and much better audio-visual fidelity compared to VHS. Everything about the new formats is purely incremental...with very little in the way of really new features.

 

[Fafalada]

Well that is certainly different than what I thought. When PS2 was released the playback was a neat feature but it still was behind in quality in video output against stand alone Sony DVD my dad got for the Christmas before.

PS2 playback was still a good 50% software based and well - internally developped PS2 software was not much of a priority to Sony.
Alhough for DVD playback people could argue it was a calculated move - it just makes for a very 'funny' coincidence that all other software support sucked donkey's ass.

Seriously, who would buy anyone else's BR player with price gap like that?

You never know, maybe PS3 will sell a separate BRD movie playback pack for 600$

 

[gofreak]

My comment is based on the belief that, like LD, the new disc formats don't offer enough compelling reasons to pay for a switch (or upgrade) from the current standard, currently DVD, for the average person. Cost to the consumer is also an issue.

It may be that BR or HD-DVD succeeds as the new mainstream format for movies, but that isn't gonna happen in the PS3 generation, IMO.

That don't mean it'll be a new Laserdisc

Broad mainstream adoption won't happen overnight, for sure. But they do have to start sometime, and the sooner they do that, the sooner it'll happen. The industry seems to agree that now is the right time to start.

In the meantime, people with HDTVs FTW.

Just one note about the cost to switch - for many, they'll find they have a Blu-ray drive in their homes almost accidently (via PS3). The added cost then is the premium for Blu-ray discs over DVD discs, and whether that's worth it or not will probably boil down to whether you've a HDTV or not. I don't think many will go out and buy a HDTV solely for Blu-ray, but they may do so for the combination of content out there that Blu-ray will be adding to - HD broadcasts, PS3/Xbox360 etc. It's another (big) slice of content to tempt people into investing in a new screen, and a pretty vital one imo.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Eventually, yeah, people will move on up to a newer format. I just wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't either of these new formats.

 

[gofreak]

Eventually, yeah, people will move on up to a newer format. I just wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't either of these new formats.

I guess it depends on how long you think it'll be before a 1080p picture starts looking long in the tooth. It's pretty future proof from that point of view, given that most people are still on SDTVs.

 

[Shogmaster]

I guess it depends on how long you think it'll be before a 1080p picture starts looking long in the tooth. It's pretty future proof from that point of view, given that most people are still on SDTVs.

It has nothing to do with 1080p. LD did the same 480i as with DVDs.

It's not about the resolution, but the timing. And the format war ain't helping things.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Yeah, resolution increase is nice 'n all...but that's not enough of a reason for the average person. You need more convenience added and real innovations to get people to move on up. I envision, not only more capacity for higher-fidelity audio-visuals, but also standardized recordability and connectivity with related devices (cam-phones, digi-cams, audio sources, remote storage (both local and on the internet)) to be the next real step up.

 

[gofreak]

It has nothing to do with 1080p. LD did the same 480i as with DVDs.

It's not about the resolution, but the timing. And the format war ain't helping things.

Resolution actually wasn't the same. LD did 400 lines where DVD does 480. And some of that resolution had to be used to show black bars when squeezing a picture into 16:9, so the difference was effectively greater. But lots of other factors already mentioned here, and a couple of others too, sealed LD's fate, and they don't really apply to Blu-ray or HD-DVD.

You need more convenience added and real innovations to get people to move on up. I envision, not only more capacity for higher-fidelity audio-visuals, but also standardized recordability and connectivity with related devices (cam-phones, digi-cams, audio sources, remote storage (both local and on the internet)) to be the next real step up.

On the latter, connectivity, that's not going to be driven by the specifiction of a disc format. What you describe there sounds like what they're trying to do with DLNA (and I'm sure lots of Blu-ray players will be DLNA-compliant )

 

[MightyHedgehog]

On the latter, connectivity, that's not going to be driven by the specifiction of a disc format. What you describe there sounds like what they're trying to do with DLNA (and I'm sure lots of Blu-ray players will be DLNA-compliant )

Well, with any of the new formats, I could do all of that with a PC. But for a mainstream, easy to use CE device, I think getting out of the current physical form of optical discs may be the best bet...but that is still too expensive. I want tiny little cards, like the size of a HuCard. Yep, that's what I want...but it isn't realistic yet. Maybe when hovercars start popping up...

 

[gofreak]

Well, with any of the new formats, I could do all of that with a PC.

If you put the PC at the centre...

You need something a little easier in this space IMO. The proposed objectives of DLNA, which encompasses PCs, targets scenarios more likely to appeal to joe and jane average, than connecting everything one-way to their PC.

 

[Mandoric]

I'm still wondering what the difference is in mass production costs for standard single layer BRD-ROM media versus a DVD-9. Outside of perhaps Square-Enix, some first party Sony stuff, and maybe a GTA, will anyone want to add cost to the already high risks of not reaching a break-even point with any titles in the first couple of years using BRD-ROM over a much cheaper DVD? Movie-wise, I think it's still Laserdisc action for both new formats...

The added cost of Bluray media is mainly a one-time expense to redo the production lines; given that all games must be pressed by Sony, and Sony both a) makes a profit on their sale and b) expects to press quite a few, I don't anticipate them attempting to recoup that cost quickly enough that it would actively discourage BRD soft.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

If you put the PC at the centre...

You need something a little easier in this space IMO. The proposed objectives of DLNA, which encompasses PCs, targets scenarios more likely to appeal to joe and jane average, than connecting everything one-way to their PC.

Sure, but how much more am I to pay for such functionality?

The added cost of Bluray media is mainly a one-time expense to redo the production lines; given that all games must be pressed by Sony, and Sony both a) makes a profit on their sale and b) expects to press quite a few, I don't anticipate them attempting to recoup that cost quickly enough that it would actively discourage BRD soft.

Sony wouldn't just swallow that cost for the sake of humanity...the question still remains.

 

[gofreak]

Sure, but how much more am I to pay for such functionality?

Nothing, if the devices you buy support it. It doesn't require hardware features as such (although a wireless capability of some kind would be convenient..), it's more of a software thing. For instance, it's been suggested that PSP will be DLNA-compliant with a future firmware update.

 

[elostyle]

Sony had a 12bits per channel color BR playback demo around the corner to the PS3 game trailer demo station.

Are there even displays that can do this?

 

[Raistlin]

Slightly O-T, but a Sony rep told me on the down low that some first party games will be ready for QA submission by early as Febuary (Warhawk was directly mentioned).

In the same convo, he told me that he expects the hardware not to be ready until at least May timeframe for Japan, but that's not official Sony internal info (just his estimation based on his observations). He also wouldn't rule out some kind of semi-simulataneous launch in JP and US, admitted that it wasn't likely.

While I'd hate to see a HW 'delay' (granted - they never gave an official date so it can't be delayed), but this would potentially be good for SW.

If something like Warkhawk is technically ready for GQ in February, that gives a lot of time for tweaking before they move to their next project.

Also, this gives more time for Sony to concentrate on the UI, and network design.

 

[Raistlin]

Is it true that the first BR players will be priced around $1800? :\

Only a few models where officially priced at CES (in general, Summer CES and CEDIA are the bigger events for A/V model-year unveilings), and the one that is listed as $1800 was a Pioneer Elite model.

Elite is Pioneer's mid-end to lower high-end family of A/V products - similar to what Sony offers in their ES family. This pricepoint does not reflect what will be charged for more 'entry-level' models.

 

[Raistlin]

ninja revenge

Don't know why ... but that's just awesome!!! :lol

The BR players ranges from $1000 for the cheapest (Samsung, LG etc.) to the $1800 Pioneer Elite.

What's funny was that none of them was boasting BR playback features that Sony was with PS3 (IIRC, 12bits per channel 1080p output via Cell's software processing). So I went around asking all the BR OEM reps why I should spend $1000~1800 for their BR player with inferior picture quality output when PS3 will give me much better playback plus top notch games at probably half the price? No one could give me a good answer (some wouldn't even try to answer me :lol).

It's like Sony has been using rest of the BR OEMs like cheap hookers to bolster momemtum behind BR standard over HD-DVD and then screw them right in the ass by selling it's own BR player (PS3) at half the price, effectively making stalling everyone else's BR player sales right off the gate.

Seriously, who would buy anyone else's BR player with price gap like that? Maybe OEMs like Samsung who's doing both specs are the smart ones.

Either way, this CES produced more questions than answering them.

$1000 was the cheapest announced, but it won't necessarily be the cheapest released during the 'launch window'. There may be something cheaper, then again ... maybe not.

From my understanding, the 12-bit video isn't entirely a CELL issue - it's an HDMI spec issue. Ken would like to wait for the newest spec, but may not be able to due to timing. I have no idea how the HDMI controller is set up though, so firmware upgrades my be a possibility (kind of like the PS2).

What's confusing me is that I was under the impression the 12-bit video was in the same spec as SACD over HDMI. Since PS3 does not have 5.1 analog outs, I would assume they want to have this spec to deliver on their claims of SACD. I can't imagine Sony would go firewire-only - there just isn't enough receiver / pre-pro support for that to make sense. HDMI will obviously continue to grow though. Could be wrong on all of this ...

Finally - I wouldn't be surprised if there is something Sony is purposfully holding back with PS3 BluRay, at least initially. They are generally mindful of partners.

 

[gofreak]

I have no idea how the HDMI controller is set up though, so firmware upgrades my be a possibility (kind of like the PS2).

I think it's a hardware issue also - physically you need more bandwidth, that the new HDMI spec will provide (in fact I think it's supposed to provide up to 16-bit per component).

It'll be there if the new HDMI spec is finalised in time..but I don't see them delaying PS3 for it if the spec is too late.

 

[Raistlin]

Oh ... as stated above ...

LD was certainly not the same resolution as DVD - not to mention it wasn't as convenient.

 

[Raistlin]

I think it's a hardware issue also - physically you need more bandwidth, that the new HDMI spec will provide (in fact I think it's supposed to provide up to 16-bit per component).

It'll be there if the new HDMI spec is finalised in time..but I don't see them delaying PS3 for it if the spec is too late.

I was under the impression current HDMI transmitters had the physical bandwidth for 12-bit color and 1080p (though not necessarily 16-bit), it was the receivers that lagged behind. If that is true, its a spec issue ... and a decoding one.

I would think the decoders are upgradable though - I'd imagine they are FPGA's are some other upgradeable HW.

 

[gofreak]

I was under the impression current HDMI transmitters had the physical bandwidth for 12-bit color and 1080p (though not necessarily 16-bit)

I wasn't sure about this. If it can do 12-bit, that's great. I think Kutaragi said that 12-bit was the least he wanted - suggesting they won't wait around for a new HDMI spec, if the current one can offer that.

 

[Raistlin]

Sure, but how much more am I to pay for such functionality?

The point is that DLNA is a standard, and is 'open'. Therefore, competition will eventually drive pricing down while allowing for more differentiation in products and topologies (simple client/server does not have to be the end-game).

I would expect it to be cheaper in the long run. For a PC based system, you obviously need a PC - and in this case, a specific OS. The clients must also run software that MS needs to make a profit on.

In the case of DLNA, any PC can act as servers (and eventually, dedicated components that are cheaper than PCs will be useable), and the clients will not need to have software that a company must profit from. The PC based setup will (potentially) be more limited in support simply from being closed - but also because of its cost (MCE), and the need for processors that support MCE).

Sony wouldn't just swallow that cost for the sake of humanity...the question still remains.

But they don't have to be the only one. The movie studios are obviously going to be part of this.

 

[Raistlin]

I wasn't sure about this. If it can do 12-bit, that's great. I think Kutaragi said that 12-bit was the least he wanted - suggesting they won't wait around for a new HDMI spec, if the current one can offer that.

Even if the HW can support it physically though, that doesn't mean it can use that bandwidth without the spec. The transmitter might not know what to do with the signal outputted from PS3 decoding - I don't think it's a simple passthrough. The HDMI trasmitter has to apply HDCP, etc if I understand things correctly.

Hopefully that's something that can be upgraded without a HW change.

 

[fortified_concept]

I've been saying this for what seem like forever now. Glad more and more are now joining on the fun!

You seem confused. It's not that "more and more are saying this", rather than "the same xbots are repeating this again and again".

The truth is now that xbots realized that HD-DVD is a failure they're trying to convince themselves and others that both formats are doomed. Please let's not hide behind our index fingers.

 

[:Motorbass]

Here are two comparisonshots of Bluray - DVD...
Uhm, well, but I don't think they do it any justice... ^^

http://www.gfdata.de/archiv01-2006-gamefront/blurayvsdvd1.jpg
http://www.gfdata.de/archiv01-2006-gamefront/blurayvsdvd2.jpg

 

[Pimpwerx]

Are GAF mods ready to implement Backup Plan C for when PS3 bombs start dropping? I have a feeling that Feb show is gonna bring this forum to its knees. PEACE.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

You seem confused. It's not that "more and more are saying this", rather than "the same xbots are repeating this again and again".

The truth is now that xbots realized that HD-DVD is a failure they're trying to convince themselves and others that both formats are doomed. Please let's not hide behind our index fingers.

How is it a failure? Deadwood is scheduled for release on it. Your standard dictionary would probably explain to you in detail how a format that has studio and manufacturer support cannot semantically be considered a failure.

Would this disregard for common linguistics make you a BR-Bot? Just curious. I think your use of the present tense might have been the main miscalculation in the first sentence of the second paragraph. Unless by failure you meant "Is not currently available in stores." And I'm pretty sure you didn't.

 

[Dracos]

I have a question. What is the best way for these companies to get the average consumer to switch to another disc format so soon? The DVD/DIVX war held off alot of people for about a year, but the move from a bulky 15-20 year old tape format to small discs was a no brainer. The move from disc to disc I think will be alot tougher to sell. HDTV support is great and all, but 7/10 Best Buy or 9/10 Wal-Mart customers don't care about that. Is it something that may take like 2 year to get going, and then studios will start delaying releases on DVD to "force" people to buy the HD versions?

 

[Deg]

You seem confused. It's not that "more and more are saying this", rather than "the same xbots are repeating this again and again".

The truth is now that xbots realized that HD-DVD is a failure they're trying to convince themselves and others that both formats are doomed. Please let's not hide behind our index fingers.

And more EA hate:

"The delivery of high-definition games is becoming increasingly important to us. Blu-ray Disc has the capacity, functionality and interactivity we need for the kinds of projects we have in mind." said Scott Cronce, Electronic Arts Worldwide Studio CTO

I have a question. What is the best way for these companies to get the average consumer to switch to another disc format so soon? The DVD/DIVX war held off alot of people for about a year, but the move from a bulky 15-20 year old tape format to small discs was a no brainer. The move from disc to disc I think will be alot tougher to sell. HDTV support is great and all, but 7/10 Best Buy or 9/10 Wal-Mart customers don't care about that. Is it something that may take like 2 year to get going, and then studios will start delaying releases on DVD to "force" people to buy the HD versions?

Switching takes time in the mean time HD tv owners will be the ones to gain. In 2006 sales of HD tv will outstrip SD tv. The move onto HD tech is unstoppable.

 

[gofreak]

I have a question. What is the best way for these companies to get the average consumer to switch to another disc format so soon?

Put it in a hundred-million selling platform. And buy everyone a HDTV.

One of these things is being done, at least

 

[DenogginizerOS]

I have a question. What is the best way for these companies to get the average consumer to switch to another disc format so soon? The DVD/DIVX war held off alot of people for about a year, but the move from a bulky 15-20 year old tape format to small discs was a no brainer. The move from disc to disc I think will be alot tougher to sell. HDTV support is great and all, but 7/10 Best Buy or 9/10 Wal-Mart customers don't care about that. Is it something that may take like 2 year to get going, and then studios will start delaying releases on DVD to "force" people to buy the HD versions?

HDTV prices need to come down A LOT. No HDTV = No need for HD-DVD Blu-Ray

 

[mrklaw]

this 'bluray won't take off' argument is daft. People were saying the same thing around VHS - 'it looks good enough' ' why do I need DVD?'


Basically, if you buy a HDTV, you want to show it off. So you'll buy a HD disc player and movies just to do that.

Sure, people without HDTVs probably won't buy in yet, but HDTV penetration is growing, and HD disc playback systems should mirror that closely.

In fact, with the current installed base of HDTVs, there is the potential for the initial sales of Bluray/HDDVD to be much better than DVD, creating some inertia which helps it to greater sales.

 

[Dracos]

The move to HD is unstoppable, and I'm glad that's the case. However hasn't alot of DVD's success come from the fact that so much is now available for it. Things like tv shows and movies that couldn't be bought before. A huge library of previously released titles that saw massive sales because they were not on tape and on a small digital format. The HD formats won't have that going for it this time around. HD or not, how many people will rebuy the complete sets of TV shows just for HD? Not many I would think. Will this adversly affect the penetration of HD disc sales? And is this just the evolution tech of a revolution (dvd) and the next high penetration format will be something different entirely?

 

[bishoptl]

Are GAF mods ready to implement Backup Plan C for when PS3 bombs start dropping? I have a feeling that Feb show is gonna bring this forum to its knees. PEACE.

I've been mentally preparing for this since last November. :|

 

[Panajev2001a]

I've been mentally preparing for this since last November. :|

I see resignation...

Denzel would be so very disappointed with you Bish...

No ass, no titties and definately not big booty bitches going like this...


FIGHT! Febrary must see the wall closeth on the lurkars, the bansticks pointed and fanboys on all sides weeping under the mod team's iron fist!

 

[Dsal]

DVD didn't really take off until the prices of titles were roughly equivalent to tapes. People bought them to replace their tapes that were wearing out, fell in love with the format's convenience, and never looked back.

It's harder for me to see what that upgrade path is going to look like this time around. I don't think picture quality is enough to get the bulk of the populace interested, especially if you need a new set to really see it. It will depend mostly on what other extras the format brings and if it makes peoples' movie viewing lives easier over DVDs.

 

[teiresias]

From what I've read I'm not so sure the studios really want HD discs to take off like DVD at this point. Their main gripe with DVD is that its gotten to a point where their margins are so slim that they can't make as much as they'd like on the disc becaus people are used to being able to pick up a DVD at Wal-Mart for $10 within six months of its release.

If anything, the studios want it to stay a bit niche in the beginning so that it's the pervue of the videophiles and home theater buffs that are willing to pay a higher price and give the studios greater margins for the material. I think that's why you're seeing alot more catalog titles announced very early, something you didn't see with DVD at the start. The studios know it's movie buffs that will be getting these things at the start, so providing them with good catalog titles that they want to have in their collections is essential - even if the film wasn't a huge blockbuster or a large special effects extravaganza.

 

[Suikoguy]

The penetration of High Definiotion Content will depend on number of HD TVs in houses. Over the holidays I was asked "If there were HD DVDs" (not the HDDVD Format, just a regular DVD in HD) they could buy.

Its going to take off, but its going to take far longer then DVD did.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

You seem confused. It's not that "more and more are saying this", rather than "the same xbots are repeating this again and again".

The truth is now that xbots realized that HD-DVD is a failure they're trying to convince themselves and others that both formats are doomed. Please let's not hide behind our index fingers.

I think the real truth is that you need to shut the fuck up and stop starting stupid shit. But that's just me. The new formats and the current 'war' between them affects anyone who watches videos...not just people playing games.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Nothing, if the devices you buy support it. It doesn't require hardware features as such (although a wireless capability of some kind would be convenient..), it's more of a software thing. For instance, it's been suggested that PSP will be DLNA-compliant with a future firmware update.

Sounds good.

The point is that DLNA is a standard, and is 'open'. Therefore, competition will eventually drive pricing down while allowing for more differentiation in products and topologies (simple client/server does not have to be the end-game).

I would expect it to be cheaper in the long run. For a PC based system, you obviously need a PC - and in this case, a specific OS. The clients must also run software that MS needs to make a profit on.

Well, my comment about doing it with a PC was more about when I could such a thing for relatively cheap, as I don't know what the prices are like for players that have this functionality in the short term. And that my original comment was about a (dream)standardized format with those features, not about what the individual CE makers do to differentiate from each other, with regard to unit feature set.

In the case of DLNA, any PC can act as servers (and eventually, dedicated components that are cheaper than PCs will be useable), and the clients will not need to have software that a company must profit from. The PC based setup will (potentially) be more limited in support simply from being closed - but also because of its cost (MCE), and the need for processors that support MCE).

Yeah, I agree...but when I upgrade to another new PC, I intend to make this current home one my media server, so at least in my case, the cost is mostly negated through simply co-opting existing hardware for that purpose. Obviously, for a mass market device with such features, a dedicated unit such as the DNLA compatible devices would be far more common in the long run. I like the idea and I hope it takes off.

 

[Wollan]

Just a question but is there porn movies planned for Blu-ray?

 

[VisionaryQuest0]

Just a question but is there porn movies planned for Blu-ray?

Why wouldn't there be, the porn industry has always jumped onto the new technology.
Aren't porns the first to even use the multi angle feature on DVDs?

 

[Wollan]

Nah, I just heard some porn movies were announced for HD-dvd already.

 

[Shapingo]

Just a question but is there porn movies planned for Blu-ray?

If you want any format to sell in mass quantities there has to be

 

[Kleegamefan]

Are there even displays that can do this?

Not yet, 10-bit max only....and I believe King Kenny wants to use 16-bit per component if HDMI 1.3 is ready in time (HDMI.org says "Spring 2006")


Here is the PS3 BD demo:

-Fully software-decoded BD player driven by CELL Processor
-High Quality image processing driven by RSX Graphics Processor
-1080p/60fps 12-bit color HDMI output
-32-bit Floating Point color video processing
-32-bit Floating Point audio processing