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Sony is Building a Hostage Crisis!!!!! (List of Games to Kickstarter)

It is also concerning that any negative opinion on this subject is rejected as simple "concern trolling" or "brand loyalty".

It does set a potentially dangerous precedent. It may end up being a great thing, but it could go the other way. Don't discount others opinions just because they are different from yours.

Hopefully this goes well, as there are many old IPs that I would love to be rebooted in this manner if done right.
See I am totally with you in the sense of, just because this time it's a good thing it doesn't mean next time it could be worse.

The problem is that this isn't like giving the government power that can be exploited for other means, this we are totally in control since we don't have to take part and can sit back and not be any worse off.

The only concerns I have seen have all been hypothetical and not based in any kind of reality where the games industry will become worse. Publishers aren't going to start doing this for their big sellers since they know they will sell. But for smaller, dead franchises that wouldn't be made without it there is no down side. If you want to help them know it's an ip you want back, fund some money (much less than a brand new copy too) and if it gets funded we all win.If not, than at least you aren't out pocket.

And best of all, no one is forced to do it since the only alternative is to leave the game dead.
 

JP

Member
As for the 'proper' use of Kickstarter, I have this to say: there isn't one. Kickstarter is a service, a way of getting projects off the ground. Game developers may have entered Kickstarter through the desire to free themselves from the shackles of big publishers and make the games they really want to make but nowadays it seems to also be used as a way of attracting more funds in order to finance more ambitious projects.It may be antithetical to the original point of Kickstarter in theory but I think it is a logical evolution. It may (and probably will) turn ugly at some point, almost every new trend in gaming ends up getting exploited and milked. I just hope we'll get some good games before the inevitable ugly end.
I keep reading this and yet, Kickstarter say otherwise on their "What is Kickstarter?" page. This is one of the ongoing issues, people think that Kickstarter is something that it isn't and then complain when it's used to do what it's actually there to do.
 

yurinka

Member
I don't see where is the problem with big publishers using Kickstarter to gauge interest on financially risky projects and to use it as a preorder system with a closer relationship with fans.

It's ok, specially if these projects wouldn't be released without that. And also brings new users to Kickstarter so they may discover smaller projects. It is known that other cases of big Kickstarters like Double Fine's one did help Kickstarter projects overall.

If people isn't scammed, I don't see the problem with it.

P.S.: Sony bring me Syphon Filter and Wipeout.
 

speedpop

Has problems recognising girls
I don't mind this outlet that publishers are pursuing as long as individuals "pledging" to a Kickstarter realize that despite they're being nailed down for a finalized product that it's a donation and nothing more.

I'm all for the success of Shenmue 3 but there is no indication of its finalized budget levels. What I am mostly peeved about is the idea that a product reaches its Kickstarted level of agreement and then a publisher swoops in by saying "lol we used this as a feedback gauge, we're funding this sucker."

I don't see where is the problem with big publishers using Kickstarter to gauge interest on financially risky projects and to use it as a preorder system with a closer relationship with fans.

It's ok, and also brings new users to Kickstarter so they may discover smaller projects. It is known that other cases of big Kickstarters like Double Fine's one did help Kickstarter projects overall.

If people isn't scammed, I don't see the problem with it.

P.S.: Sony bring me Syphon Filter and Wipeout.

I'm of this mindset completely because there are many IPs out there that I desire resurrection. But my gamer values are dropping sensibility bombs left right and centre with the undeniable "we've been burned by various publishers for over 30 years" truth.
 

Briarios

Member
And this is why we were worried about Shenmue.

Why? Because it will open the doors to more games being made?

This argument against Kickstarter is ludicrous. The reality is, the price of games hasn't kept up with the cost of making games. So, companies which are required by their own mandates to be as profitable as possible are rightly wary of investing in games that may fail. It's the whole cost/benefit analysis that's preventing us from getting sequels to beloved game franchises.

If this opens the door to getting games into development that would otherwise be passed on to make the next COD or Skylanders, because they're sure things, then it's a good outcome in my opinion. Making games isn't a charitable work -- it's done to make money. If there are individuals with the funds to help support these niche titles, by all means -- let them! It means we all have access to a greater variety of games.

Gamers will decide which projects to back and which should fail ... Ther is nothing wrong with that.
 
Why wouldn't Sega cut Sony out of it and just Kickstart this project (and other games) themselves?

Because Sega owns the IP? They're only licensing the IP from them, not buying it from them, so regardless of what happens Sega still have an Involvement.

Edit:whoops read that the wrong way around. Shenmue is basically segas bottomless money pit that helped to almost ruined them. They'd be incredibly wary about putting forward the additional funds on top of the kickstarter because for all we know, the people who are backing the game would be the only people who would have actually bought it.
 
Because Sega owns the IP? They're only licensing the IP from them, not buying it from them, so regardless of what happens Sega still have an Involvement.

Edit:whoops read that the wrong way around. Shenmue is basically segas bottomless money pit that helped to almost ruined them. They'd be incredibly wary about putting forward the additional funds on top of the kickstarter because for all we know, the people who are backing the game would be the only people who would have actually bought it.

I initially thought Sony was publishing/funding this, but it seems that Sony is simply promoting and dealing for console exclusivity.
 

m@cross

Member
Hard to tell who is trolling, fan-boying, or simply choosing to look for only the negatives.

Do games funded on kickstarter sometimes never come out? Yes
Are many of those games being run by experienced industry veteran teams who know what it takes to go from concept to release?
How many of those games where supported in their announcement by a major game publisher/developer, and when funded, supported with additional financial investment by said publisher and possibly other business investors? I am guessing zero?

Instead of choosing to look for worst case scenarios, perhaps try looking at things based on probability?

A HUGE number of IPs never see another game because those with the money don't feel they will have a decent chance at making profit if they use the IP again. Everyone likes games that would give an opinion on wanting game X to have a new iteration, simply judging interest on polls and postings is not reliable for gauging true interest in a product. The vocal minority or the vocal majority is a difficult line to draw.

While 2 million dollars is a lot of money for most of us, it is a small sum when it comes to developing, distributing, and marketing the average current gen console title. Whatever deal Sony made with Yu, the fact is the game was not being made without some serious help. For more than a decade the guy tried to get the help he needed to make this game, and there is no way he could make it to the quality level he wants with the help the talent he needs at 2 million. Likely Sega also was not willing to release the rights to use the IP without knowing it was going to have a good shot at being well done. Why would they want to risk a half ass product with a known IP that could damage its value in later game use?

By taking Sony on their offer, it helps all parties have more confidence in a good end result.

Now Sony is looking at the success of the projects support on KS and considering other options that are in similar situations. Thousands of neglected IPs could be made less risky through this method. Not necessarily in finance, but in gauging real interest in a product.

This isn't being done to support major IPs that are "safe" investments already. This is for those games we loved that simply are not seen as safe now by their owners. This allows us to see games and ideas that are only seemingly safe as indy projects, get support to be bigger budget niche titles. This allows developers to realize a genre that was supposed to be dead is actually alive and worth more investment. It gives a real voice to us as a community, to let us show what we want, not just to be categorized into safe projects year after year.

So if Sony comes out with a list of games they want to pursue and it is known safe projects. If it is simply a list to grab quasi pre-order money in advance. If they start using it to fund bonus content. Then feel free to say You told us so. Until then, stop taking what is a great thing for gamers and fans of niche games and twisting it into some dark future based on baseless assumptions.

In the mean time
Suikoden 2 remake
Suikoden 2 true sequel
Shining Force
Parappa
Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday
Wild Arms
Okami
Eternal Champions
Panzer Dragoon Saga
Bomberman
Burning Rangers
Ni No Kuni
Bushido Blade
Colony Wars
Einhander
Bust A Groove
Interstate 76

and why not

Space: 1889
 

ClearData

Member
Some may be cynical about this but if people are getting their dream games and are happy then I'd say this is a very good thing. It's like a patronage system. Backers show what projects they want the most and the publishers and developers take it the rest of the way. If the games are made and are good everybody wins.
 

Averon

Member
I keep reading this and yet, Kickstarter say otherwise on their "What is Kickstarter?" page. This is one of the ongoing issues, people think that Kickstarter is something that it isn't and then complain when it's used to do what it's actually there to do.

This. It seems a lot of people had this narrow, romanticized view of what KS (crowd funding in general, really) should be and not what it actually is.
 
A proper Shadow hearts game with the same mood and atmosphere (horror tinged, moody) as the first one in the series. Please assemble as many of the original developers behind the game as possible to retain maximum flavor!

Jumping flash for morpheus would be so perfect. Can't think of a better fit out of all the ips Sony owns to bring to vr.

A big budget entry in the Wild Arms series. The western setting for this series needs to be brought back to life with current gen technology!

Jak and Daxter open world platformer by Naughty Dog!

At least two of the above would be much appreciated. Thanks Gio Corsi.
 

Lemondish

Member
Honestly this is a very slippery slope to go down. Shenmue 3 is one thing, but I hope we don't see the random IPs that probably could be financially viable on their own accord kickstarted because- "Why not?"

Anyway, Kojima "will" be a free agent sooner or later, looks like his project is about to get Kickstarted into the sun.

I'm not sure why that's a slippery slope. Is there really that much of a fundamental difference between Kickstarter and preordering?
 

Drek

Member
What would even lead you to that conclusion, Their investing money into it and it's PS4 exclusive on consoles. Of course they're publishing it,

He probably got that conclusion from the fact that Sony isn't publishing it.

The PC version is being published by Shibuya Productions, who are also supposed to be involved in funding the game. That is the only physical version being made. The PS4 version is digital only, where Sony allows independent studios to self-publish.

Sony doesn't own a stake in Shenmue III. YsNet does. SEGA still does as they still own the IP and are letting Suzuki use it. Shibuya Productions likely does as they're ponying up for a physical release. The only profit Sony will realize from this is the royalty fee they'll charge, just like every other game released on PS4.

If Sony were actually publishing it they would have said as much. They have no ability to do so and the entire structure of the game's release platforms, all of the media up to this point, and all of the legal rights to the Shenmue brand indicate that nothing has changed behind the scenes to alter that.

When people accept that Sony isn't backing Shenmue III and putting it on Kickstarter to extract massive profits maybe then they'll get the actual concept here. Shenmue III will almost certainly LOSE money for Sony. Lets say Sony contributes $10M total between development kits, technical assistance, marketing, and straight out cash. Then lets assume they make a far higher royalty on it than most games at $10 per unit. The game would then need to move 1M units on the PS4 for Sony to break even. The first game sold 1.2M, the second sold 400,000. So Shenmue III would need to sell on par with the first game, a state of the art headliner at the time for the Dreamcast, 14 years after the series was effectively dead for Sony to realize any profits in this hypothetical.

Sony isn't doing this for money. They're doing this for the PR associated with it. It is a comparatively cheap way to net a ton of good publicity with the avid gamer audience that has propelled the PS4 to #1 so far this generation.

Any future kickstarters they do will likely be built on the same premise.

Suikoden is an example that would make some sense as that is a core JRPG gamer sweetheart and would, in conjuncture with Persona 5, FFVII Remake, etc. make the PS4 the clear choice for fans of JRPGs, leading to 3rd parties still making JRPGs to skew heavily PS4, possibly even resulting in "free" exclusives, and maybe just maybe getting a bit of traction in Japan's gaming market.

If Sony did the same thing with WipEout though? That wouldn't really have much benefit. They own the IP, there is no need for a way to circumvent a reticent publisher to make it happen, and the simple fact is that WipEout would generate better PR as an unveiling coupled with actual video than as a Kickstarter.

Sony is using these Kickstarter collaborations the same way they're funding Street Fighter V, just on a less grand scale. Capcom was quite honest a few years ago in saying that SFV wasn't coming until the audience on next gen consoles was large enough. Sony threw them a bone to accelerate that timetable as their financial contribution effectively "bought out" Capcom's concerns about market size. Meanwhile Shenmue III is a title that would never be financially viable for any publisher. The combination of Kickstarter and Sony's contribution makes it viable as fans are willing to pay more than MSRP to make it happen and Sony is willing to literally give money and resources away in exchange for goodwill and "free" PR.

To put it most simply: heading into this E3 it was pretty clear that the most avid gamers were going to be coming out of the show complaining that Sony doesn't have enough exclusives in 2015. The mainstream gamer wouldn't actually care because it's got COD, Star Wars, AC, Fallout 4, etc.. But a lot of bad word of mouth could spread because Uncharted slipped and the Sony first party lineup was otherwise pretty damn bare to start. Sony backed Shenmue, unveiled TLG, unveiled FFVII Remake, and got partnerships with CoD and Star Wars to make everyone overlook their weak 2015 holiday lineup. So if Shenmue costs them $10M in sunk money but they keep good word of mouth and lead holiday sales when MS is pulling out Halo 5 I'm sure they'll see it as money well spent.
 

anothertech

Member
I can't help but feel there is a bit of salt coming through in the negative kickstarter comments. Like a sentiment that 'dam, Shenmue is a Ps4 console exclusive, can't say anything bad about Shenmue, but kickstarter, we can call doom and gloom on that! How dare Sony make us vote with our wallets!'

It's so easy to see how good this can be for games that might never had a chance, but now gives players a chance to actually vote with their wallets.

I'm really excited about the list they will come up with, and to see if gamers will really put their money where their mouth is. Fun times ahead :D
 
Ppl assume Sony's gaming division just taps into the Sony bank account whenever they want lol.

They have to prove they're making a good investment to the higher ups first. What better way to do that than to let the fans show that they're serious about the games they have been begging for?
 

Aureon

Please do not let me serve on a jury. I am actually a crazy person.
Yyyyyyep.

All that "oh come on, it's just a one-off, publishers wouldn't bilk us for cash like that repeatedly" starts to come off as pretty silly now, doesn't it?

Where's the problem in gauging interest for games that would be considered miracles if not for sony doing this?
 
BTW this what Adam Boyes basically said on the Gamespot e3 livestream

There were two ways to do Shenmue III, one was to prepare documents and then spend twelve months in meetings to persuade the organization that the demand was there, the second was simply to go out and ask “do you love it?” and have people vote with their wallet.
 

Luke_Wal

Member
I don't know; to a certain extent, this kind of makes sense to me. They need to see interest from the consumer before they invest in it, so basically getting people to pledge a certain number of pre-orders makes a lot of sense. This is happening with every game you're Kickstarting anyways; things like Mighty No. 9, Bloodstained, and (probably) Yooka-Laylee have outside funding as well, and it's all contingent on getting the support on Kickstarter. They're just being a little more transparent about where the money's coming from this time.
 
They could use the kickstarter method for a new Crash Bandicoot racing game. They have already a deal with activision for black ops 3' dlcs, so why not? I think ps4 needs a good cartoony racing game.
 

Nikodemos

Member
There were two ways to do Shenmue III, one was to prepare documents and then spend twelve months in meetings to persuade the organization that the demand was there, the second was simply to go out and ask “do you love it?” and have people vote with their wallet.
That's pretty much what I've said from the very beginning. 1 year of market analysis, trend evolutions, target demographics, etc. (with an uncertain end result) versus "Oh, hey, we've managed to gather $3 million from our loyal fanbase in a month, how much are you willing to give us?"
 

SVxM

Member
Well, here's mine:
  • New Suikoden
  • New Shadow Hearts
  • New Xenogears/saga (I know the studio, Monolith Soft, is now owned by Nintendo)
 
To put it most simply: heading into this E3 it was pretty clear that the most avid gamers were going to be coming out of the show complaining that Sony doesn't have enough exclusives in 2015. The mainstream gamer wouldn't actually care because it's got COD, Star Wars, AC, Fallout 4, etc.. But a lot of bad word of mouth could spread because Uncharted slipped and the Sony first party lineup was otherwise pretty damn bare to start. Sony backed Shenmue, unveiled TLG, unveiled FFVII Remake, and got partnerships with CoD and Star Wars to make everyone overlook their weak 2015 holiday lineup. So if Shenmue costs them $10M in sunk money but they keep good word of mouth and lead holiday sales when MS is pulling out Halo 5 I'm sure they'll see it as money well spent.

Mainstream gamers don't care, you've established that. And people on GAF that aren't blind past the triple AAA big blockbusters can see that the PS4 has plenty of exclusives, first party and otherwise coming out this year. In fact, it probably has more so coming out. "Bad word of mouth"? Console warriors are going to peddle their shit no matter what happens.

What absolutely strange conclusions.
 

Sesha

Member
Sony own the Alundra IP. They need a kick in the ass, not a kickstarter!

That's what I thought. Yeah, then they don't need a kickstarter. I mean, I would fund it as a pre-order measure if I could, and I imagine a lot of others would. But Sony are fully capable of ponying the dosh for this themselves. And Matrix Software deserves to work on something better than mobile ports for Square Enix and other companies

A proper Shadow hearts game with the same mood and atmosphere (horror tinged, moody) as the first one in the series. Please assemble as many of the original developers behind the game as possible to retain maximum flavor!

Jumping flash for morpheus would be so perfect. Can't think of a better fit out of all the ips Sony owns to bring to vr.

A big budget entry in the Wild Arms series. The western setting for this series needs to be brought back to life with current gen technology!

Jak and Daxter open world platformer by Naughty Dog!

At least two of the above would be much appreciated. Thanks Gio Corsi.

Most of the Shadow Hearts development formed feelplus, which is now part of Marvelous. I think the series' director Matsuzo Machida might be at feelplus as well, since he was a writer on Ninety-Nine Nights 2.
 

Drek

Member
Mainstream gamers don't care, you've established that. And people on GAF that aren't blind past the triple AAA big blockbusters can see that the PS4 has plenty of exclusives, first party and otherwise coming out this year. In fact, it probably has more so coming out. "Bad word of mouth"? Console warriors are going to peddle their shit no matter what happens.

What absolutely strange conclusions.

What Halo 5 level exclusive does Sony have for Holiday 2015? Console warriors are a small minority of the core gamer demographic, hence why the lead console changes so readily from generation to generation. Core gamers chase good hardware and good exclusives, and those core gamers frequently set the tone for the mainstream gamer.

Sony executed fantastic damage control from having: Santa Monica's new IP flop, Uncharted 4 slide into 2016, The Order being lackluster, and none of their other studios having a big title slated for late 2015. Their E3 show was fantastic marketing and their interest in Shenmue III is to that end.

Not as a publisher, as you originally stated, since they aren't publishing anything related to Shenmue.
 
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