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[Sangetsu-II]

That doesn't address the argument whatsoever. Yes, I and others are well aware you'd have the choice to use a Move too - but if a developer has to cater to a DS4 - it means they can't create a game which *depends* on the capabilities of the Move controller, e.g. two tracked points.

If a game developer wanted to design a game where the *core mechanic* required two distinct tracked points interacting with each other, then they couldn't if they also had to cater to the DS4. People could say 'use two DS4s' but that's not practical, especially if it involved pressing buttons at the same time on both.

Unless there would be different modes to the VR game like 1 hand if you have a DS4 or 2 hands if you are using move. It's like drop in co-op where an additional player joins in. The gameplay doesn't change but the added item moves around the gameplay.

 

[JustenP88]

You haven't tried VR I guess?

I have a bit. And I'm happy that traditional methods of control are an option. This platform isn't old enough for these arbitrary purity tests.

I'm operating under the assumption that a developer can still design a game with motion controls in mind and just tack on some bs ds4 support as an afterthought.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

So yeah, I just tested the DS4's tracking in Playroom and it completely loses tracking except for rotational when the camera can't see the light. That's going to make the DS4 a pretty poor replacement for Move in a LOT of situations. Assuming you hold it like normal with one hand, anytime you're using it to replace a gun you're going to lose tracking the moment you aim to your direct side or behind you. Anytime you aim straight up, you'll lose tracking. That's all a pretty simple scenario. Once you get in to something more intricate like Job Simulator, they're going to have to restrict all of your actions not just to a 180 degree experience, but more like a 90-120 degree-ish experience. You could do it, but it's probably going to be a frustrating experience.

Funny enough, I think Audioshield would work, but again you'll need two controllers.

I just looked at HoloBall gameplay and not only does it look like it could be played with a DS4 acting as a Move controller, it seems like the game would be perfectly fine using only one DS4 since you can use a backhand to hit the ball. In fact I suspect that is how most people would play the game anyway since they would be more accurate using their dominant hand all the time.

If you knew anything about Holoball, you would know that it is notorious for not only flying controllers, but broken wrist straps. That's with the Vive's giant wand grips. Imagine that while holding one handle of the DS4 which doesn't have a wrist strap.

 

[EventHorizon]

because "use two DS4s" will not satisfy "must support DS4" mandate from any justifiable position. There is absolutely no way sony writes that mandate and accepts 2 DS4s as a logical solution. They might as well jsut be making all users buy move controllers

"use two DS4s" sure sounds like "must support DS4" to me. It simply means you can substitute a DS4 for a Move. If the game needs 1 Move then you can use 1 DS4 in its place. If on the other hand it needs 2 Moves then you'd have to use 2 DS4s instead.

This is a rather odd position for you to take btw. You were the one who said "holy shit....concepts to making audioshield work on a DS4 are actually hilarious" when talking about the non-motion controlled aspect of the DS4. So now are you trying to say that you do think Sony meant that games designed for 2 Move controllers could be played with a single DS4 instead? What exactly do you think Sony is trying to say then. It sounds to me that at this point you are bouncing between positions just to argue.

Where do you think the ds4's lightbar is going to be facing when you wind up for a back handed hit? Or a forehand hit for that matter? (not toward the camera)

Also there have been maaany people who have accidentally tossed vive controllers while playing that game. It will be a broken tv nightmare trying to play what is essentially tennis, with a half grip on a pretty large controller that doesn't even have the option of flimsy wrist straps

How many times do I have to say it. INERTIAL SENSORS. They update far more frequently than the camera and are what is used for the fine tracking anyway. Handling a backhand/forehand hit would be no problem for the DS4. That is the easy case since the sensor is out of sight for a short period of time and during that time the controller is going through a lot of acceleration. The inertial sensors would be more accurate that the camera in that situation.

What kind of powerful swing are you doing that you think you could break a wrist strap? No seriously. Are you trying to say with a straight face that you would be throwing your controller so hard that the strap would just snap in two? Wow. Just Wow. Well if you are doing that then you deserve whatever happens.

If you knew anything about Holoball, you would know that it is notorious for not only flying controllers, but broken wrist straps. That's with the Vive's giant wand grips. Imagine that while holding one handle of the DS4 which doesn't have a wrist strap.

That sounds like a wrist strap problem then and has nothing to do with the controller. I'm pretty confident that we have the cord technology to handle not breaking when a controller slips out of your hand.

 

[Zalusithix]

So many Vive owners who were all enthusiastically agreeing with that Verge article a couple of days ago that Move was a PoS busy here too.

Acknowledging the weaknesses and limitations of the Move in relation to the PCVR tracked controllers has nothing to do with whether it's a good idea to always force traditional controls on a VR game where they might not be ideal (or even realistically possible).

The solution to a technically flawed controller isn't to replace its function with an even more flawed input method.

 

[mike6467]

Putting a sub optimal play experience in front of people isn't going to help VR. Observe the reactions between Giantbomb's Oculus vs. Vive streams. VR is already a niche, pricier purchase, even if Sony is going for a bigger market,

I'd say adding Move controllers to the price isn't going to deter the people who are looking to pick this up, and it may GREATLY improve the experiences of those who do pick it up.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

What kind of powerful swing are you doing that you think you could break a wrist strap? No seriously. Are you trying to say with a straight face that you would be throwing your controller so hard that the strap would just snap in two? Wow. Just Wow. Well if you are doing that then you deserve whatever happens.

Again, if you knew anything about Holoball's rep you wouldn't have typed that lol. Let's not pretend the Wii didn't have this same problem. There's a reason these things come with wrist straps by default.

EDIT:

That sounds like a wrist strap problem then and has nothing to do with the controller. I'm pretty confident that we have the cord technology to handle not breaking when a controller slips out of your hand.

Last time I checked, the DS4 isn't built for wrist straps.

 

[travisbickle]

Because everybody loves to play games that control poorly. Nothing more satisfying than spending money on a middling experience!

Playable, but only just, isn't going to do anybody any favors. Especially in an ecosystem that doesn't allow for easy, no questions asked refunds.

And having a VR game on sale that can't be played with a default controller in an ecosystem that doesn't allow for easy, no questions asked refunds is a good idea?

 

[EventHorizon]

So yeah, I just tested the DS4's tracking in Playroom and it completely loses tracking except for rotational when the camera can't see the light. That's going to make the DS4 a pretty poor replacement for Move in a LOT of situations. Assuming you hold it like normal with one hand, anytime you're using it to replace a gun you're going to lose tracking the moment you aim to your direct side or behind you. Anytime you aim straight up, you'll lose tracking. That's all a pretty simple scenario. Once you get in to something more intricate like Job Simulator, they're going to have to restrict all of your actions not just to a 180 degree experience, but more like a 90-120 degree-ish experience. You could do it, but it's probably going to be a frustrating experience.

To do the things you are suggesting would be bad design even for the Move controllers. Games on PSVR will simply be designed to not have you turn 180 degrees or aim straight up. Here it is straight from the horse's mouth. The developers of Job Simulator are talking about the design constraints when dealing with tracking setups that can't handle 360 degree motion control tracking.

https://youtu.be/U8mku0JvuLI?t=12m37s

 

[Haint]

I have a bit. And I'm happy that traditional methods of control are an option. This platform isn't old enough for these arbitrary purity tests.

I'm operating under the assumption that a developer can still design a game with motion controls in mind and just tack on some bs ds4 support as an afterthought.

You're probably right, but why make that a requirement to save somebody $25? It doesn't make sense when your asking $400, $500 for a niche luxury device and already including 2 of the fucking things in the bundle that's probably going to account for 80% of Sony's production.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

To do the things you are suggesting would be bad design even for the Move controllers. Games on PSVR will simply be designed to not have you turn 180 degrees or aim straight up. Here it is straight from the horse's mouth. The developers of Job Simulator are talking about the design constraints when dealing with tracking setups that can't handle 360 degree motion control tracking.

https://youtu.be/U8mku0JvuLI?t=12m37s

Doesn't the Heist have you aiming directly to your sides a lot? The Move can handle that type of thing because of the sphere. It wouldn't have any problems with you aiming straight up. It can handle a little more than 180 I'm sure, because you would still see that sphere aiming a bit behind you. If they were really worried about the edges of 180 degrees, they'd be recommending games restrict to something like 120 for some margin.

 

[Koyuga]

This is the side effect of not including PS Move with PSVR. Assuming every player is also going to have a certain combination of controller is bad, since it locks others out of the game. This way you have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Kyolux]

This is the side effect of not including PS Move with PSVR.

What?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00SBXBQDS/?tag=neogaf0e-20

 

[GuitarAtomik]

What?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00SBXBQDS/?tag=neogaf0e-20

That's the more expensive bundle. The one they've been mostly advertising at the $500 price is just the headset (not even the camera).

 

[cheezcake]

How many times do I have to say it. INERTIAL SENSORS. They update far more frequently than the camera and are what is used for the fine tracking anyway. Handling a backhand/forehand hit would be no problem for the DS4. That is the easy case since the sensor is out of sight for a short period of time and during that time the controller is going through a lot of acceleration. The inertial sensors would be more accurate that the camera in that situation.

Ah I dont think you really understand how the IMU + cameras work in tandem, the IMU always does the heavy lifting in terms of calculating position deltas, but like any integration (with the IMU you're doing a double integration to calculate position from acceleration) you're left with an unknown constant, the job of the camera is to periodically reset the constant to zero effectively. As soon as you lose camera vision, the tracking begins to accumulate an error because you're not correcting for the constant and the tracked item drifts away from its actual position. It happens instantly as anyone with a vive or rift who's tested this will tell you. Also just because the controller's experience more acceleration in certain motions doesn't mean that the IMU is magically more accurate in that phase, that makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Kyolux]

That's the more expensive bundle. The one they've been mostly advertising at the $500 price is just the headset (not even the camera).

$500 is that bundle. And if you add up everything that comes with it, it's definitely cheaper.

Pretty sure the intent of the 400 standalone headset is for people like me that already have the camera and move controllers.

 

[EventHorizon]

Again, if you knew anything about Holoball's rep you wouldn't have typed that lol. Let's not pretend the Wii didn't have this same problem. There's a reason these things come with wrist straps by default.

And once again that is a strap problem and not a controller problem.

Last time I checked, the DS4 isn't built for wrist straps.

You put it in a harness and attach the strap to that. It's be sort of like the rubber casing the Wii motion used to attach the Wii Motion Plus. It wouldn't have to cover the entire controller. In fact I could see it just covering the handle, and over and around the front trigger to lock it in. It could be molded to give you a better grip too. On second thought you might have to cover more of the controller to greater spread out any stress the controller would receive if it were thrown.

 

[Sangetsu-II]

$500 is that bundle. And if you add up everything that comes with it, it's definitely cheaper.

Pretty sure the intent of the 400 standalone headset is for people like me that already have the camera and move controllers.

exactly

 

[Bsigg12]

$500 is that bundle. And if you add up everything that comes with it, it's definitely cheaper.

Pretty sure the intent of the 400 standalone headset is for people like me that already have the camera and move controllers.

Sure, but equally as many if not more people will want the unit that is $100 cheaper as an "easy" way into VR. It always happens with multiple SKUs.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

$500 is that bundle. And if you add up everything that comes with it, it's definitely cheaper.

Pretty sure the intent of the 400 standalone headset is for people like me that already have the camera and move controllers.

Oops. I meant the one they announced at GDC for $399. The intent is correct, but I think it has more to do with PS4's camera rather than the Move. If it didn't, they wouldn't have this mandate in the first place (assuming it's legit).

You put it in a harness and attach the strap to that. It's be sort of like the rubber casing the Wii motion used to attach the Wii Motion Plus. It wouldn't have to cover the entire controller. In fact I could see it just covering the handle, and over and around the front trigger to lock it in. It could be molded to give you a better grip too. On second thought you might have to cover more of the controller to greater spread out any stress the controller would receive if it were thrown.

That sounds like a lot of trouble for an accessory they'd likely sell separately, when they can just point you to the Move controllers instead.

 

[Kyolux]

Sure, but equally as many if not more people will want the unit that is $100 cheaper as an "easy" way into VR. It always happens with multiple SKUs.

And then see that they need to put another $50 for a camera (except people that already have one but no moves, they're the one really stuck in the middle in all this)... so they'll basically already be half-way there.. Seems like a weird thing at that point not to consider the bundle..

 

[Zalusithix]

And having a VR game on sale that can't be played with a default controller in an ecosystem that doesn't allow for easy, no questions asked refunds is a good idea?

Obviously you'd put a warning that states "Move controllers required" for a game that requires them. Then you could only blame user error if they buy anyhow.

Of course, if you're advocating for a "Plays poorly on a DS4" warning, then sure, both situations are acceptable from that front at least. And no, a "Plays best with Move" is not the equivalent, as people would (rightfully) assume that a product for sale which officially supports a DS4 to actually do so decently.

Seriously folks, while I was being sarcastic with my comment quite a ways back, arguing for traditional controls as mandatory for all VR games isn't much different from arguing for traditional TV support for VR games being mandatory. The headset is a real time 6DoF stereoscopic display. Tracked controllers are each real-time 6DoF input devices. You can't fully emulate the display with a TV, and you can't fully emulate dual tracked controllers with a traditional one. The more you attempt to do so in both cases, the more layers of abstraction you're reintroducing to the equation, and the further you're getting from the point of VR in the first place.

 

[ArtHands]

Why? Most games should work fine using the motion tracking capabilities of the DS4. The gripping problem only becomes an potential issue with swinging game and in that case put a wrist strap on that goes around the controller.

You also seem to be under the impression that Move controllers would not be used if they were available. They certainly would be. This is workaround would only be used for gamers that don't have Move controllers. They could substitute 1 or 2 DS4s in place of the Move and still play the games. You are basically saying that these gamers should simply not be given the option of using a DS4 instead of a Move. I can categorically state that such a restriction would sell fewer games and as a result be bad for VR.


Yes it does. Use two DS4s. I am really not seeing your point.

Using 2 DS4 is a very huge compromise, since the DS4 isn't designed for use with one hand for mid length play in the first place, and might result in bad VR Initial impression to people. Even normal movement is going to be an issue, let alone fast paced one. Besides the grip issue, the weight of the DS4 will be a problem too. its better for the hand to hold and swing a lighter object than a heavier one, after all.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

And then see that they need to put another $50 for a camera (except people that already have one but no moves, they're the one really stuck in the middle in all this)... so they'll basically already be half-way there.. Seems like a weird thing at that point not to consider the bundle..

And what if they already own the PS4 camera which is the likely reason that bundle exists?

Then the controllers are not much more...

....which makes this whole thing unnecessary.

 

[EventHorizon]

Doesn't the Heist have you aiming directly to your sides a lot? The Move can handle that type of thing because of the sphere. It wouldn't have any problems with you aiming straight up. It can handle a little more than 180 I'm sure, because you would still see that sphere aiming a bit behind you. If they were really worried about the edges of 180 degrees, they'd be recommending games restrict to something like 120 for some margin.

The Move controllers have a problem too of being occluded on the side just like the DS4 would. It would happen less often but it would still happen. As a result the game shouldn't be designed for that to happen. Even if a game like the Heist did push the bounds of shooting to the side, it would be a simple matter for the game to detect that you are using a DS4 and not have vehicles hang back as far. It's sort of like how some games don't have as much lateral enemy movement for the console version of the game because they know that the controller has a harder time tracking it.

Ah I dont think you really understand how the IMU + cameras work in tandem, the IMU always does the heavy lifting in terms of calculating position deltas, but like any integration (with the IMU you're doing a double integration to calculate position from acceleration) you're left with an unknown constant, the job of the camera is to periodically reset the constant to zero effectively. As soon as you lose camera vision, the tracking begins to accumulate an error because you're not correcting for the constant and the tracked item drifts away from its actual position. It happens instantly as anyone with a vive or rift who's tested this will tell you. Also just because the controller's experience more acceleration in certain motions doesn't mean that the IMU is magically more accurate in that phase, that makes no sense whatsoever.

I admit that I had no idea how fast the drifting would start, so thanks for the info. I still contend that in a game like HoloBall it wouldn't matter. The most important thing that needs to be tracked on a back swing is when it stops, starts going forward and how fast that happens. The part of the swing outside of sight should be pretty straightforward to estimate, and the controller would be in sight again by the time contact is made with the ball.

The high acceleration is important because the IMUs tracks acceleration. The larger the acceleration, the bigger the signal. That's not magic. That is physics.

So in short, it really doesn't matter if the camera briefly loses sight of the controller. That movement can be estimated, and any errors should not affect gameplay since the swing motion would be in sight again by the time contact with the ball is made. The high acceleration (and deceleration) means that the estimation would be more accurate. For example, the PS4 would know pretty accurately when the backswing ended and the racket started moving forward again.

I am not saying that the PS4 could handle the controller being out of sight for any significant amount of time, especially if that was not part of a single action like taking a swing. Then again I am saying that it would be a poor design decision to have that type of movement even if the Move controllers were being used.

 

[Kyolux]

And what if they already own the PS4 camera which is the likely reason that bundle exists?

Then the controllers are not much more...

....which makes this whole thing unnecessary.

Let me quote part of my post that took this into account.

(except people that already have one but no moves, they're the one really stuck in the middle in all this)

edit: Basically I agree with you on this.

 

[spazchicken]

I'd like to see the player 1/D setup in action.

 

[backbreaker65]

Either point out specific things I've said, or just keep talking to walls.

specifically stop acting like you know every god damn thing, You don't know so stop acting like you do know. Eat the Cake Foo.

 

[Kyolux]

I'd like to see the player 1/D setup in action.

I could be wrong, but I think this would apply to the bundled disc game? The one with asymmetrical gameplay?

specifically stop acting like you know every god damn thing, You don't know so stop acting like you do know. Eat the Cake Foo.

Hey look at me I got all the answers, to this new on the horizon that maybe a game changer or not. But I set the laws in this space so do not deviate from my paradigm of which hasn't been tested by the masses but trust me the public doesn't know shit. Well there is an alternative theory to what you are proposing. Don't question me I'm GOD.

Man.. you need to take it easy a bit. We're just discussing here.

 

[backbreaker65]

Hey look at me I got all the answers, to this new on the horizon that maybe a game changer or not. But I set the laws in this space so do not deviate from my paradigm of which hasn't been tested by the masses but trust me the public doesn't know shit. Well there is an alternative theory to what you are proposing. Don't question me I'm GOD.

 

[EventHorizon]

That sounds like a lot of trouble for an accessory they'd likely sell separately, when they can just point you to the Move controllers instead.

Or they just put in an inexpensive rubber harness in the $399 PSVR package.

Once again I really don't get your side's point of view on this. What exactly do you think Sony meant when it said "All PlayStation VR titles will support DualShock 4 controllers.". Do you think they meant that every dual Move controlled game could somehow be mapped to a single DS4 controller held traditionally? As I already pointed out, Sony did a similar thing with the DualShock 3 controllers being a substitute for the Move Navigation controller.

Using 2 DS4 is a very huge compromise, since the DS4 isn't designed for use with one hand for mid length play in the first place, and might result in bad VR Initial impression to people. Even normal movement is going to be an issue, let alone fast paced one. Besides the grip issue, the weight of the DS4 will be a problem too. its better for the hand to hold and swing a lighter object than a heavier one, after all.

Sony is already on record saying that using the DS4 in place of Move controllers would be an inferior solution so you aren't saying anything new. I'll admit that swinging motions might be pushing it, but I see no problems with holding a gun or picking up objects to examine them with the DS4. Job Simulator, Heist, Audioshield, and Until Dawn: Rush of Blood should work fine with the DS4, just not as well as they potentially would with the Move. All Sony is saying is that if you don't have the Move controller, you could still play those games and I see no reason why that should not be the case.

 

[pj]

How many times do I have to say it. INERTIAL SENSORS. They update far more frequently than the camera and are what is used for the fine tracking anyway. Handling a backhand/forehand hit would be no problem for the DS4. That is the easy case since the sensor is out of sight for a short period of time and during that time the controller is going through a lot of acceleration. The inertial sensors would be more accurate that the camera in that situation.

What kind of powerful swing are you doing that you think you could break a wrist strap? No seriously. Are you trying to say with a straight face that you would be throwing your controller so hard that the strap would just snap in two? Wow. Just Wow. Well if you are doing that then you deserve whatever happens.

What I gather from this post is you've never used a vive. The translational (separate from rotational) error on all these devices is on the order of FEET per second. As soon as the camera/lighthouse/whatever loses tracking, the controller model in game will start flying away from you.

It's not common with my vive, but it does happen even with its 24 sensors per controller and 2 lighthouses. It will certainly happen far more with 1 LED and 1 camera.

I haven't tossed a controller yet but I've played holoball and it's very easy to get immersed and start putting more power behind swings than is really necessary. The warning the game puts up before you play is more than justified.

That sounds like a wrist strap problem then and has nothing to do with the controller. I'm pretty confident that we have the cord technology to handle not breaking when a controller slips out of your hand.

Yeah the wrist straps that ship with vive are garbage. Worse than a bad wrist strap is no wrist strap. I'm fairly sure DS4 has no mounting slot for a wrist strap and have heard no plans to release some kind of crazy harness thing.

Regardless, the DS4 will be terrible for holoball if used as a direct replacement for a move controller. Maybe they will do something gaze-based.

 

[bobbytkc]

Tell that to the devs who've already released their games on Vive.

Holoball devs must be having nightmares trying to figure out how to make a DS4 work as well as motion controls. I guess depending on how accurate the DS4 internals are, you could do a Wii Sports Resort-like control scheme, but Sony better have a wriststrap solution.

This gameplay mechanic is the definition of a gimmick. The success of VR won't depend on games like this.

 

[jaypah]

Hey look at me I got all the answers, to this new on the horizon that maybe a game changer or not. But I set the laws in this space so do not deviate from my paradigm of which hasn't been tested by the masses but trust me the public doesn't know shit. Well there is an alternative theory to what you are proposing. Don't question me I'm GOD.

Lmao, lost his shit again.

Nah, you're right bruh. I should have to be a dev to understand that games that are already released for motion controlled VR would have to be reworked considerably to function even half-assed on a DS4. Can't be critical of shit unless you're a professional, right? Right on dude.

Anyway, as I'm ready to add PSVR to my VR haven (DK2, GearVR and Vive) I hope Sony backtracks on this and let devs make whatever they want to make. I enjoyed Move only games on PS3 and I hope Sony will allow Move only games for PSVR.

This gameplay mechanic is the definition of a gimmick. The success of VR won't depend on games like this.

Holoball is awesome. Thankfully it's coming to PSVR so more folks can enjoy it.

 

[Bishop89]

What a terrible precedent to set.

Controllers already limit game design (and user-interface design) in a lot of traditional games, it'll be even worse for VR. Tracked controller (hand presence) is fundamental for VR, with few exceptions.

i want vr with dualshock 4

 

[cheezcake]

I admit that I had no idea how fast the drifting would start, so thanks for the info. I still contend that in a game like HoloBall it wouldn't matter. The most important thing that needs to be tracked on a back swing is when it stops, starts going forward and how fast that happens. The part of the swing outside of sight should be pretty straightforward to estimate, and the controller would be in sight again by the time contact is made with the ball.

The high acceleration is important because the IMUs tracks acceleration. The larger the acceleration, the bigger the signal. That's not magic. That is physics.

So in short, it really doesn't matter if the camera briefly loses sight of the controller. That movement can be estimated, and any errors should not affect gameplay since the swing motion would be in sight again by the time contact with the ball is made. The high acceleration (and deceleration) means that the estimation would be more accurate. For example, the PS4 would know pretty accurately when the backswing ended and the racket started moving forward again.

Ohk so you were sort of talking about SNR, I understand where you're coming from but that's not how modern circuit design works. Any modern IC uses upper bound constraints, i.e. you specify an upper bound on the resolution of the accelerator and engineers design around that metric. I just googled a fairly generic IMU datasheet and it states 0.2 ug resolution and 500 ppm scale factor accuracy on the accelerometer, the bias drift is in the range of mg, i.e. more than 1000x more relevant than SNR considerations due to magnitude of measured acceleration.

I agree if all your trying to do is track a gesture it doesn't really matter, and it would work for games if they design around it. I don't think people are arguing against that point. It's more that the limitations that need to be placed on those games (because you're designing around these hardware limitations) are so extensive that they significantly reduce the quality of the VR experience you'll get. And I very much agree with that sentiment.

 

[cakefoo]

The inertial sensors would handle the picking something off the floor case, and that would likely happen even for the Move controller as the camera likely doesn't see that far down anyway.

Sony would probably want occlusions more than a blink long to never happen. Unless you know of an impressive demo of the DS4's tracking without the light bar, I'm not going to make assumptions about the quality of their inertial sensors. It's safer to assume they're only equal to Move's at best, especially when you consider it's only ever been used in games where you hold the controller flat in both hands pointed at the TV.

Most games should work fine using the motion tracking capabilities of the DS4. The gripping problem only becomes an potential issue with swinging game and in that case put a wrist strap on that goes around the controller.

People complained about how awkward it was to hold a Sixaxis in one hand in their lap when playing Move shooters. You really think people are going to happily hold one, let alone two DS4's in mid-air?

How many times do I have to say it. INERTIAL SENSORS. They update far more frequently than the camera and are what is used for the fine tracking anyway. Handling a backhand/forehand hit would be no problem for the DS4. That is the easy case since the sensor is out of sight for a short period of time and during that time the controller is going through a lot of acceleration. The inertial sensors would be more accurate that the camera in that situation.

The inertial sensors may keep track of the fine movements, but fine means small. Like pointing, and any movement too small for the camera resolution to pick up. The camera itself is what keeps the positional tracking locked even during very fast movements. Without the optical tracking, the Move drifts 1-2 feet after just one medium speed motion.

What kind of powerful swing are you doing that you think you could break a wrist strap? No seriously. Are you trying to say with a straight face that you would be throwing your controller so hard that the strap would just snap in two? Wow. Just Wow. Well if you are doing that then you deserve whatever happens.

People have broken Wii wrist straps, and those things are much thicker.

And once again that is a strap problem and not a controller problem.


You put it in a harness and attach the strap to that. It's be sort of like the rubber casing the Wii motion used to attach the Wii Motion Plus. It wouldn't have to cover the entire controller. In fact I could see it just covering the handle, and over and around the front trigger to lock it in. It could be molded to give you a better grip too. On second thought you might have to cover more of the controller to greater spread out any stress the controller would receive if it were thrown.

It's not just a strap problem, it's a grip problem. Unless you're also belting your hand to the controller, it's going to slip out of hands like nothing before. So that harness and strap better be the heaviest duty possible. But it also has to not occlude the lightbar.

specifically stop acting like you know every god damn thing, You don't know so stop acting like you do know. Eat the Cake Foo.

I know a lot about VR (I have a Vive) and I know a lot about the Move (I was a fanboy). And I know common sense geometry, physics, etc.Maybe split your anger equally towards both sides of the debate if you want anyone to take you seriously.

 

[jaypah]

i want vr with dualshock 4

That's fine. Some of us want devs to have a clear option. The Sports Champion devs didn't have to worry about making a DS3 compatible game and it worked out great, that game was very fun and polished. Why stop that now?

 

[magnumpy]

I think it's interesting that all these various VR devices are using different control paradigms. PSVR, Oculus Rift, HTC Vive, Oculus Touch, Gear VR... there doesn't seem to be an agreed upon standard for controlling VR games.

that's interesting and a bit huh??? I expect there to be a period of experimentation before some kind of standard is established. of course there are things like Oculus Dreamdeck that require basically no controls, except for head motion.

interesting times for gaming. looking forward to whatever the future brings.

 

[cakefoo]

This gameplay mechanic is the definition of a gimmick. The success of VR won't depend on games like this.

The act of swinging something to hit an object is a component of many types of games- racket sports, sword games, baseball. Throwing is another action movement that would have major occlusion issues with a controller that has optical tracking on only one side.

 

[cakefoo]

I think it's interesting that all these various VR devices are using different control paradigms. PSVR, Oculus Rift, HTC Vive, Oculus Touch, Gear VR... there doesn't seem to be an agreed upon standard for controlling VR games.

that's interesting and a bit huh??? I expect there to be a period of experimentation before some kind of standard is established. of course there are things like Oculus Dreamdeck that require basically no controls, except for head motion.

interesting times for gaming. looking forward to whatever the future brings.

They only have different control methods because they want to cut costs for the sake of marketshare. Vive's inside-out controllers are the best tracking tech for VR (minus ergononmics, arguably).

 

[The Dear Leader]

In a world with the Vive and its controllers having all PSVR games being forces to work around a controller is incredibly disappointing. Limits creativity in a field that will live or die based on creativity.

 

[cheezcake]

This gameplay mechanic is the definition of a gimmick. The success of VR won't depend on games like this.

https://gfycat.com/GreedyPracticalGreendarnerdragonfly

 

[jaypah]

I think it's interesting that all these various VR devices are using different control paradigms. PSVR, Oculus Rift, HTC Vive, Oculus Touch, Gear VR... there doesn't seem to be an agreed upon standard for controlling VR games.

that's interesting and a bit huh??? I expect there to be a period of experimentation before some kind of standard is established. of course there are things like Oculus Dreamdeck that require basically no controls, except for head motion.

interesting times for gaming. looking forward to whatever the future brings.

Well, you actually nailed it. We are still in the experimental period. The Vive design is the front runner (motion controls out the box, roomscale, ability to use a controller) but even it lacks the ability for a motion tracked traditional controller for whatever reason you would need one. Things may all get closer together but it'll be a while before anything close to standard is reached.

 

[PLASTICA-MAN]

How much is the Aim Controller?

 

[Zalusithix]

Job Simulator, Heist, Audioshield, and Until Dawn: Rush of Blood should work fine with the DS4, just not as well as they potentially would with the Move. All Sony is saying is that if you don't have the Move controller, you could still play those games and I see no reason why that should not be the case.

Audioshield wouldn't work as well as you might think with two DS4s. It's not as active as Holoball, but there's a lot of movement that would obscure the DS4's light bar since it was never meant to be held/used like that. Everything from extended crossovers to portions where the orbs are coming down from a high inclination. You'd have many periods where you'd be relying 100% on the IMU, and that's not going to work out well. This is a game where being positionally off by even a centimeter can be the difference between the edge of your shield catching an orb or not. Positional drift would be gamebreaking. Trust me, I've had the Vive's controllers lose tracking and drift in the midst of playing. Not a good thing.

That said, I can at least appreciate your attempts to emulate tracked controllers with multiple DS4s, even if I don't think it'll work out from a technical standpoint. At least it's more rational than those that think the Move controllers can be reduced to traditional input methods like sicks and buttons.

 

[bobbytkc]

The act of swinging something to hit an object is a component of many types of games- racket sports, sword games, baseball. Throwing is another action movement that would have major occlusion issues with a controller that has optical tracking on only one side.

I can swing a sword in a videogame by pressing a button. If your gameplay mechanic is based on replacing something I can do with a button by actually moving my arms, I don't consider that anything more than a gimmick and it is most certainly not something with sufficient depth that a hardcore gamer will appreciate in the long term.

 

[Daft Punk]

Lmao, lost his shit again.

Nah, you're right bruh. I should have to be a dev to understand that games that are already released for motion controlled VR would have to be reworked considerably to function even half-assed on a DS4. Can't be critical of shit unless you're a professional, right? Right on dude.

That's the main point though. You as well as the rest of us honestly don't know what this will entail. Trying to automatically throw down a qualifier of "Well anyone with EYES can see that it's going to take work to blah blah" is just reactionary at this point. This is why I wish a dev would come in here and provide insight because this entire thread is Tales from the Ass: Views from the Armchair Edition.

 

[jaypah]

How much is the Aim Controller?

I don't think they announced a price. But hopefully no more that $60 or so. Even if it's not heavily supported I still want one. Though I think support will be at least decent because it's fun to shoot at stuff.

 

[PLASTICA-MAN]

I don't think they announced a price. But hopefully no more that $60 or so. Even if it's not heavily supported I still want one. Though I think support will be at least decent because it's fun to shoot at stuff.

From what I saw the aim controller has the Move ball at the end of it. Does that mean you mount the move controller on it to be tracked by the camera or this is a full controller on its own and does have the ball by default? If it needs the Move controller, does it come with it when you purchase it or do you have to buy it separately?

Also some other questions:
Will the PS Move full pack include the the Sony headset everyone is wearing when they demo the PS VR or do you have to get it seprately? If so, what is the model they used and how much does it cost?

Another question that intrigues me: the PS4 Camera is needed to track the PS VR lights and the PS Move ball. Imagine if you turn your view from the camera to look behind, both the PSVR lights and PS Move ball will not face the camera in that postion. How is the camera supposed to track them then?

I didn't try PS VR yet. Some who already did may answer me.