Support NeoGAF

[cormack12]

Source: https://gamerant.com/sony-patent-reactive-difficulty/

More at link too

Sony submits a patent detailing the use of AI learning to balance video game difficulty in real time, potentially changing video game fundamentals.

A new patent from Sony details its potential plans for handling difficulty in video games, titled "Use of Machine Learning to Increase or Decrease Level of Difficulty in Beating Video Game Opponent." That name is a bit of a mouthful, but it's essentially a form of reactive difficulty. As players progress through a game, the enemies and bosses will get stronger or weaker to accommodate the player's level of skill.

 

[Raonak]

Seems like a very obvious use of machine learning. surprised that no-one patented this before.

Lots of games use dynamic difficulty, but don't think it's been done with ML before (atleast not on a big game)

This could be a gamechanger for stuff like competitive game balancing.

 

[OneBigPuss]

I think Resident Evil 4 was using some form of scalling

 

[Aenima]

Its notion of difficulty seems to be more complex than just increasing health and damage, as the AI would be capable of coding new attack patterns for enemies.

This would be great to see. Tired to see devs just making the enemies be bulet sponges and 1 shot you in the hardest dificulties.
Sony is pretty big in the AI department, so hopefully they do good things with it for videogames.

 

[M1chl]

This is logical next step, love to see it

 

[Marchizmo]

I think Resident Evil 4 was using some form of scalling

RE 4, no bullets? Here have some more you missmanaging piece of shit. JK

 

[Killer Sakoman]

Using AI to develop AI? Expect most game developers to adopt some form of it in the future. However, this might be better while connected online as AI algorithm would better be off loaded to the cloud and keep console CPU free.

 

[Xenon]

Why does it seem like almost every time Sony patents something it's like basic shit that other devs have been doing for years.

I could have sworn there were quick to bots that learned And became more difficult the more you played them .

 

[Moogle11]

Probably not something that will have much appeal to me as someone who doesn't like hard games, hard boss fights etc., but I've got no bones to pick with it since they list opting in or out right at the start of their flow chart. I'm all for games giving the players options to select an experience that suits them, especially for Sony games where the story, characters etc are the main draw for a lot of us. Not saying all games need to include such options and developers should of course make the games they want to make. I heavily screen what I decide to play and not every/most games have to be for me.

 

[Aenima]

Probably not something that will have much appeal to me as someone who doesn't like hard games, hard boss fights etc., but I've got no bones to pick with it since they list opting in or out right at the start of their flow chart. I'm all for games giving the players options to select an experience that suits them, especially for Sony games where the story, characters etc are the main draw for a lot of us. Not saying all games need to include such options and developers should of course make the games they want to make. I heavily screen what I decide to play and not every/most games have to be for me.

The AI adjust to player skill. If you suck at a game the boss will be easier. The AI is not only making the games harder, its adjusting the game to player skill making the enemies harder or easier.

 

[Diddy X]

I don't know how it works but seems like a too obvious way of using AI for someone to patent it?

 

[skneogaf]

But the more you retry something the better you become anyway.

 

[driqe]

So it's basically AI adjusting to player skill?? Die a couple of times and you get easier enemies?

 

[Iced Arcade]

Left 4 dead's AI director was ahead of its time

 

[Max_Po]

So it's basically AI adjusting to player skill?? Die a couple of times and you get easier enemies?

what else ? console should extend a hand and tickle you ass crack ?

 

[DonJuanSchlong]

Why does it seem like almost every time Sony patents something it's like basic shit that other devs have been doing for years.

I could have sworn there were quick to bots that learned And became more difficult the more you played them .

Apple does the same. They tried to even patent a shape.

 

[bitbydeath]

Why does it seem like almost every time Sony patents something it's like basic shit that other devs have been doing for years.

I could have sworn there were quick to bots that learned And became more difficult the more you played them .

Cause they don’t want another rumble case.

 

[namekuseijin]

great

we expecting AI in games to get smarter for real challenge and bozos in decision-making wanting it to learn how not to hurt their snowflake audiences

 

[TKOFromTokyo]

I like where this is going. It should be an opt in or opt out thing though. I don’t want games making it easier for me without me choosing that.

What I’d really be interested in is AI that recognizes user patterns and adjusts to the pattern to force them to use different skill sets and maneuvers to force the user to master more complete use of the characters rather than rely on certain patterns.

 

[driqe]

I like where this is going. It should be an opt in or opt out thing though. I don’t want games making it easier for me without me choosing that.

What I’d really be interested in is AI that recognizes user patterns and adjusts to the pattern to force them to use different skill sets and maneuvers to force the user to master more complete use of the characters rather than rely on certain patterns.

So Roguelites?

Sony always patents stuff that other devs have been doing since forever, to be fair tho, we don't know exactly how this will work.

 

[Moogle11]

The AI adjust to player skill. If you suck at a game the boss will be easier. The AI is not only making the games harder, its adjusting the game to player skill making the enemies harder or easier.

Got you. That's definitely appealing. I read it wrong I guess and just saw the bit about learning about successful strategies so bosses/enemies could adapt and be harder.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Do that have a technique to adjust/improve the ‘I’ part for gamers, especially a select bunch of us here?

 

[phil_t98]

Funny thing with this type of setting with in a game is how would you gain trophy’s for playing it on hard if the game adjusts the setting all the time

 

[Moogle11]

So Roguelites?

Sony always patents stuff that other devs have been doing since forever, to be fair tho, we don't know exactly how this will work.

I'm not a huge fan of roguelites, so I may have just not played any that do something similar, but I've not seen enemies or bosses learn your strategies and adapt to be harder in future runs.

The one's I've played it's just randomized/procedurally generated each run on what rooms you get, what power ups drop that you can use to make your build each run, which enemies/bosses you face each run etc.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Funny thing with this type of setting with in a game is how would you gain trophy’s for playing it on hard if the game adjusts the setting all the time

By getting rid of those lazy ass trophies to begin with.

 

[Greeno]

I don't know how it works but seems like a too obvious way of using AI for someone to patent it?

Yeah, the Rockstar patent also has this issue. And the hell is the issue with Blooper and their split-screen patent?

Also, this does seem similar to how that "Echo" game handles AI.

 

[Myths]

It creates dynamic paradigms based on a set of recorded actions the user inputs and gives an approximation of comparison to said paradigms within some acceptable margin of error. And it can continue to compound, combine, and generate even more complex building blocks of paradigms based on user action and input.

also; I don’t know what I’m saying.

 

[Fake]

Left 4 dead's AI director was ahead of its time

Spot on. Left 4 Dead 2 director is no joke spamming Witch infront the safe room.

 

[Gamerguy84]

As long as it scales down for me than fine.

 

[Woggleman]

Can you imagine this in the next TLOU game?

 

[TKOFromTokyo]

So Roguelites?

Sony always patents stuff that other devs have been doing since forever, to be fair tho, we don't know exactly how this will work.

Correct me if I’m wrong, because I don’t know much about different genres, but don’t roguelites just spawn levels differently? I’m talking about a pattern like against enemy A you tend to move right and do attacks B, C, and D. The AI recognizes this and makes a shift to the right ineffective at attacking them and forces you to adapt and change your pattern. Of course you wouldn’t want it to be too heavy handed and negate every action you take, but it could force you to use a varied approach to common enemy A, thus making it less repetitive and building up your mastery of the move set.

 

[killatopak]

Funny thing with this type of setting with in a game is how would you gain trophy’s for playing it on hard if the game adjusts the setting all the time

There probably would be a hard cap on how easy the ai will be on harder difficulties.

like on a scale of 1 to 100 in terms of difficulty.

Easy 1-50
Normal 25-75
Hard 50-100

 

[oldergamer]

Seems like a very obvious use of machine learning. surprised that no-one patented this before.

Lots of games use dynamic difficulty, but don't think it's been done with ML before (atleast not on a big game)

This could be a gamechanger for stuff like competitive game balancing.

If its obvious it shouldn't be granted a patent. There are tests with machine learning and AI in games all over the place.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

Fuck off patenting such a generic idea and process flow. Unless there is more in the full patent application, piss off. Far too generic for approval.

 

[zcaa0g]

Dynamic difficulty is stupid in racing and RPG titles.

 

[JimboJones]

It would only work if it gave you like a "dunce" cap or penalised you (shit tier item drop maybe) if it had to lower it for you to complete the section.

 

[Griffon]

Software patents are fucking degenerate.

 

[ComputerBlue]

Doesn’t MLB The Show have something similar? Obviously you’re not killing or getting killed. But I thought that game had a setting which would dynamically adapt the difficulty based on your skill and change over time.

 

[ksdixon]

I thought TLOU 1 had this years back? Enemies called to one another, recognised when your clip was empty, follow you from room to room etc.

Or more recently RE2make's enemies would take a varying number of shots to kill-off, and ammo amounts would change, depending on how you were performing.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I don't know how it works but seems like a too obvious way of using AI for someone to patent it?

i assume the patent must contain technical descriptions on how they're gonna achieve this.
Afaik you can't patent a software based on the end result alone.

 

[cormack12]

I thought TLOU 1 had this years back? Enemies called to one another, recognised when your clip was empty, follow you from room to room etc.

Or more recently RE2make's enemies would take a varying number of shots to kill-off, and ammo amounts would change, depending on how you were performing.

I think that's different. That's not adapting, that's AI behaviour based on a difficuly setting. Can't comment on ReMake as haven't played it yet. The Director for L4D2 is probably the closest but it has a different purpose. The way I interpret this is that you may get a menu at the start saying

opt in for increased difficulty
opt in for decreased difficulty

If it's decreased then the game will assess how you play and maybe calculate that you struggle with something like enemy flanking and stop doing it (currently a toggle in TLOU II), or it may see that you struggle with a specific enemy type (shotgun archetypes in Uncharted) and then do an encounter swap for a different archetype maybe.

And if you are in it for increased difficulty, the opposite. The game would throw more shotgun archetypes at you. Or send more enemies to flanking positions. Or see that you struggle more with shamblers than clickers.

More advanced learning may determine that you struggle with a particular attack pattern e.g. heavy attack followed by light attack so it may produce combo that exploits that. Server stats may determine that your loadout for this encounter is sub optimal and drop a heavy weapon in for you based on how many players have beaten it with a particular weapon type.

It will be interesting to see it used in games that specifically target difficulty. Like Souls bosses for example. I doubt it's near ready for production yet, will probably start getting used soon though, probably as an optional difficulty in the first party games. Has potential to be amazing or frustrating. Imagine in FIFA, the computer seeing you are weak on corners, then just playing for them like Sam Allardyce in real life.

 

[DonJuanSchlong]

I think that's different. That's not adapting, that's AI behaviour based on a difficuly setting. Can't comment on ReMake as haven't played it yet. The Director for L4D2 is probably the closest but it has a different purpose. The way I interpret this is that you may get a menu at the start saying

opt in for increased difficulty
opt in for decreased difficulty

If it's decreased then the game will assess how you play and maybe calculate that you struggle with something like enemy flanking and stop doing it (currently a toggle in TLOU II), or it may see that you struggle with a specific enemy type (shotgun archetypes in Uncharted) and then do an encounter swap for a different archetype maybe.

And if you are in it for increased difficulty, the opposite. The game would throw more shotgun archetypes at you. Or send more enemies to flanking positions. Or see that you struggle more with shamblers than clickers.

More advanced learning may determine that you struggle with a particular attack pattern e.g. heavy attack followed by light attack so it may produce combo that exploits that. Server stats may determine that your loadout for this encounter is sub optimal and drop a heavy weapon in for you based on how many players have beaten it with a particular weapon type.

It will be interesting to see it used in games that specifically target difficulty. Like Souls bosses for example. I doubt it's near ready for production yet, will probably start getting used soon though, probably as an optional difficulty in the first party games. Has potential to be amazing or frustrating. Imagine in FIFA, the computer seeing you are weak on corners, then just playing for them like Sam Allardyce in real life.

It'll probably need feedback loops for a while to be able to good database, and then to exploit that.

 

[Elektro Demon]

Finally the code will recognize that the journalist playing it is a moron and adjust difficuilty accordingly.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Wait, are they patenting rubber banding?

 

[skit_data]

Sound like something akin to the Xenomorph AI in Alien Isolation except it also scales down the difficulty.

 

[cormack12]

It'll probably need feedback loops for a while to be able to good database, and then to exploit that.

Maybe that's what they have been doing, and sharing subsets on all these infographics like GoT and GoW like this below - probbly influences future design right now tbh

 

[kuncol02]

It would only work if it gave you like a "dunce" cap or penalised you (shit tier item drop maybe) if it had to lower it for you to complete the section.

There is lot of ways games are adjusting dificulty dynamically. L4D had AI director which decided what enemies send against players, HL:Alyx keeps players from having excess ammo and items by removing some when you have to much.

 

[Alx]

Why does it seem like almost every time Sony patents something it's like basic shit that other devs have been doing for years.

I could have sworn there were quick to bots that learned And became more difficult the more you played them .

Japanese companies often use the number of patents as a way to value themselves (if you're a researcher applying for European companies, they'll ask you how many papers you published, in a Japanese company they would ask how many patents you filed). Also it's quite easy to patent anything (there are conditions of anteriority but you can circumvent them with technicalities), as long as it isn't challenged by another party it still stands.
So in short, yeah many patents are bullshit and claim to have invented something that has existed for decades. But nobody will say anything as long as you don't use them.

 

[Retinoid]

So when Journalists play the game the AI will cease functioning, allowing them to finally play through the game with no challenge?

 

[Gandih42]

It's very unclear what exactly this means in terms of application. In general, I kind of like games to have a static difficulty so it's a thing to be mastered rather than something that accommodates itself to me. But not every game needs to be that. I would be curious to see an application where the enemies adapt to your playstyle to counter you. Not just swapping enemy types or adjusting stat values (hp, dmg etc.). Say you were sniping off all enemies with magic or arrows in Dark Souls. Then later in the zone, the enemies would start to hide and use cover to counter that tactic and block your spells. Or if you are using a heavy and slow weapon with large sweeping attacks, they would start spreading out and keep their distance when you swing.

I'm not sure Dark Souls is a good game for this kind of application, as the strengths of the game is in large part due to enemy and encounter design. Which would change significantly with something like this. But I think designing a game around the idea of an adaptive AI to adapt to your playstyle and skillset would be interesting. Make the challenge about constantly outpace to the enemies trying to adapt to you. I imagine such a game would need fairly deep fighting mechanics and a lot of tools for the player to utilize in order to make it interesting to fight adaptive enemies.

I'm personally not interested in the opposite side of this, making game easier for someone struggling, but obviously that would be very useful for players just playing through a game for the story/experience. Whatever the case, I do hope this is not the kind of patent that will end up blocking other games from using a good feature/idea. Like the loading screen minigame thing, or what Warner Bros is trying to do (did do?) with the Nemesis system.