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Sony sues George 'geohot' Hotz and fail0verflow over PS3 jailbreak.

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kinoki

Illness is the doctor to whom we pay most heed; to kindness, to knowledge, we make promise only; pain we obey.
CadetMahoney said:
I agree. Sony wouldn't do it, but they're pretty stupid to begin with anyway.

What if what you are activating are online play and achievements/trohpies? That in order to unlock these you'd have to buy a key to the game? Single player affairs which you run through for the experience and then vendor are untouched.
 
kinoki said:
What if what you are activating are online play and achievements/trohpies? That in order to unlock these you'd have to buy a key to the game? Single player affairs which you run through for the experience and then vendor are untouched.
From pure market curiosity I don't mind seeing them do this and see the results. They previously entertained the idea of online codes before iirc.
 

Emitan

Member
kinoki said:
What if what you are activating are online play and achievements/trohpies? That in order to unlock these you'd have to buy a key to the game? Single player affairs which you run through for the experience and then vendor are untouched.
It's the same thing as EA's Online Pass or whatever it's called. I'm not a huge fan (Mass Effect 2 did it right I will admit), but if this would stop pirates from playing online I'm fine with it.
 
Billychu said:
It's the same thing as EA's Online Pass or whatever it's called. I'm not a huge fan (Mass Effect 2 did it right I will admit), but if this would stop pirates from playing online I'm fine with it.

Some people with legit codes that don't play online will sell the online codes.
 

Rhindle

Member
I wouldn't see a problem with this, quite frankly. If a single serial copy of a game shows up online more than 5 times within a short period, there's a 99%+ chance that it's pirated.

If they want to be on the safe side, they could allow a greater number of instances - say 100 instances. That would still allow small-scale piracy (copying games from friends or rentals), but would deter downloading ISOs.
 
Link1110 said:
Why not? If I was buying a game and Gamestop offered me $10 for that code, I'd go for that.
I don't know if Gamestop will accept second hand codes even if "unscratched" or w/e. Seems like a nightmare to handle.
Rhindle said:
I wouldn't see a problem with this, quite frankly. If a single serial copy of a game shows up online more than 5 times within a short period, there's a 99%+ chance that it's pirated.

If they want to be on the safe side, they could allow a greater number of instances - say 100 instances. That would still allow small-scale piracy (copying games from friends or rentals), but would deter downloading ISOs.
I fear that would lead to organized grouping piracy on pirate forums. Someone would just follow a template of "rules" on how to run such a group and pirates will just jump on the bandwagon.
 
CadetMahoney said:
I don't know if Gamestop will accept second hand codes even if "unscratched" or w/e. Seems like a nightmare to handle.

Yeah, I was talking about how people sell codes on eBay and other sites.

Hell, people used to sell Xbox console IDs so you could get your modded console unbanned.
 

N.A

Banned
geohot's lawyers move for dismissal (via PSX-Scene)

The only evidence it has put forth to prove Mr. Hotz has entered the PSN Agreement is an improperly authenticated screen shot of a PSN Network account with the username “Geo1Hotz.” Declaration of Gilliland Exh. A. Mr. Hotz does not own or have access to this account. Mr. Hotz does not live in Rhode Island, does not use the name “Geo1Hotz” which, in contrast to Mr. Hotz‟s common handle, utilizes capital letters and a numeral, and Mr. Hotz was not born in 1995 as in the screen grab. Id. Sony further falsely states that Mr. Hotz is “reffered to online as „GeoHot.‟” This is untrue. All exhibits submitted by Sony purport to show that Mr. Hotz goes by the internet name “geohot” without any capitalized letters or numerals.

In the present case, Sony cannot demonstrate that Mr. Hotz‟s activity could even arguably be construed as expressly aimed at California. To the contrary, the sole alleged tortious activity alleged in this action involves Mr. Hotz-- who is located in New Jersey-- purportedly improperly accessing portions of his own Playstation Computer-- which is also located in New Jersey. Sony's primary allegation is that Mr. Hotz violated the circumvention provisions of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (“DMCA”) by allegedly circumventing control access to the Playstation Computer. Sony also includes various other inexplicable claims for good measure, including Mr. Hotz violating the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and the California Computer Crime Law for allegedly "exceeding access" to Mr. Hotz's very own Playstation Computer, as well as for Mr. Hotz purportedly "trespassing" on the very Playstation Computer he lawfully purchased and owns. Sony also alleges that, by engaging in such conduct, Mr. Hotz has breached the PSN TOS (which is actually not applicable to Mr. Hotz as demonstrated above). Nonetheless, this suit centers around the allegation that Mr. Hotz improperly accessed portions of his Playstation Computer.

Sony thinks that an unnamed defendant called “Bushing” resides in California but this person remains a Doe defendant, is not named as a defendant, and has not been served with process. Further, all evidence put forth by Sony regarding “Bushing” is improperly authenticated hearsay. This court should not rely on Sony‟s speculation of a Does defendant‟s place of residence to assert jurisdiction over a nonresident who is actually named with an address that has been identified, in New Jersey. Further evidence in this matter is found primarily on the internet.

Contrary to Sony‟ assertions, most of the physical evidence and Mr. Hotz himself, are located in the state of New Jersey. The bulk of Sony‟s claims regard evidence found on Mr. Hotz‟s media devices and in Mr. Hotz‟s testimony as a witness. Other than those items, the bulk of the evidence Sony puts forth may be found on the internet which is accessible just as easily in New Jersey as in California.

Sony relies on the unsubstantiated residency of the unnamed defendant “Bushing” as a basis for California being the best forum. However, “Bushing” has not been identified, named, served, or connected with Mr. Hotz in any way that would warrant bringing the only identifiable defendant out to California. If “Bushing” does exist and can be ascertained at a later date, Sony would have to amend the complaint to properly name him/her which has not occurred. Thus, New Jersey is an alternative forum that exists to provide Sony with adequate relief. If Sony can obtain jurisdiction by merely including a hypothetical defendant by the name of “Bushing” that may live in California, then any Plaintiff can file suit in California and obtain jurisdiction by adding “Bushing” as a defendant.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
N.A said:
geohot's lawyers move for dismissal (via PSX-Scene)

Zing. Looks like a solid case to me, unlike the painfully flaky case Sony put forward.

Of course, it's not going to save him from facing the charges in the slightest. If Sony can't go after him on their selected turf, they'll go after him in a court that does have jurisdiction. And while most of their claims against him are tenuous to the extent that bringing them should actually be illegal, there are a few bits in there with real substance to them, so he's not off the hook yet.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
Metalmurphy said:
Hum... no?

So, when you signed up for PSN you decided to go with the nickname m3tal17MURPHY and put in the wrong date of birth just in case you wanted to have plausible deniability?

Damn, I'd better see if I can change mine to IAP3TUS.
 
iapetus said:
So, when you signed up for PSN you decided to go with the nickname m3tal17MURPHY and put in the wrong date of birth just in case you wanted to have plausible deniability?

Damn, I'd better see if I can change mine to IAP3TUS.

I went with MetalmurphyPT with fake name/address/everything. Later I made Metalmurphy with fake info and I also have 6 more accounts all with fake info.

You really find it hard to believe that someone like Geohot, with clearly intents to hack the system, could register with fake info? Or that he even has a PSN account at all?


To me that the opposite would be the unlikely thing.
 

sajj316

Member
iapetus said:
If you're putting in fake info, wouldn't you at least include your name in what you faked? :)

Can't remember how I signed up for PSN but I don't believe anything stops you from putting in a fake first and last name. Just like Sony trying to send geohot $1 through paypal, its just another way for them to try and prove jurisdiction.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
Metalmurphy said:
You really find it hard to believe that someone like Geohot, with clearly intents to hack the system, could register with fake info? Or that he even has a PSN account at all?

If he's smart and paranoid, then I wouldn't find it hard to believe he doesn't have a PSN account at all. I'd fully expect him to have had someone else - probably someone who can't legally enter into a contract of that nature - sign up for a PSN account with false details and let him use it. And I'd expect the name on that account to be as unrelated to his as the rest of the fake info.

If the name were accurate, then I'd expect it to be entirely accurate, with the same capitalisation that he uses everywhere else, possibly with a prefix/suffix, but not with arbitrary changes in capitalisation and insertion of numbers in a style that he's never been known to use. He'd either use his name as he normally uses it, or fake the details completely, IMO.

I'm not saying he doesn't have a PSN account or access to one. But I doubt this one will turn out to be his.
 
iapetus said:
If he's smart and paranoid, then I wouldn't find it hard to believe he doesn't have a PSN account at all. I'd fully expect him to have had someone else - probably someone who can't legally enter into a contract of that nature - sign up for a PSN account with false details and let him use it. And I'd expect the name on that account to be as unrelated to his as the rest of the fake info.

If the name were accurate, then I'd expect it to be entirely accurate, with the same capitalisation that he uses everywhere else, possibly with a prefix/suffix, but not with arbitrary changes in capitalisation and insertion of numbers in a style that he's never been known to use. He'd either use his name as he normally uses it, or fake the details completely, IMO.

I'm not saying he doesn't have a PSN account or access to one. But I doubt this one will turn out to be his.

Well... Geohot IS taken. If it's not his he would have to choose something else.
 

sajj316

Member
Metalmurphy said:
Well... Geohot IS taken. If it's not his he would have to choose something else.

As you said ... if they can trace that login back to his machine @ home .. they will have a case. The fact that they have not provided evidence that maps this username back to the IP of his machine .. tells me that evidence is FAKE (pun intended).
 

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
The fact that there must not have been a "geohot" account registered with PSN, because they would have obviously tried to use that vs what they are, would lead me to believe there's no way this was him. Why on earth would he not just use "geohot"? The only way he would have kept it the same general name, but not exactly what he's always used, is if "geohot" was already registered. The fact that Sony did not list a user of "geohot" on PSN as his, would clearly make it obvious there isn't one.

EDIT: I doubt geohot was taken at the time because they would have listed that as him. They've not introduced any evidence that says they traced the IP, so it seems they just found a name that could be him.
 
squatingyeti said:
The fact that there must not have been a "geohot" account registered with PSN, because they would have obviously tried to use that vs what they are, would lead me to believe there's no way this was him. Why on earth would he not just use "geohot"? The only way he would have kept it the same general name, but not exactly what he's always used, is if "geohot" was already registered. The fact that Sony did not list a user of "geohot" on PSN as his, would clearly make it obvious there isn't one.

Geohot is taken. But no trophies.
 

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
he has not used capital letters at any time in the past "geohot", not "Geohot, GeoHot, Geo1Hot".

I would wager "Geohot" was not registered before the lawsuit.
 

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
So, why wouldn't sony choose that as the proof he has been on PSN? They have shown nothing, other than picking a registered name that is a variation on his known used name. If they wanted to prove anything, it would have included evidence that tied that to his machine, but they did not.

Furthermore, the act of agreeing to the TOS, IMHO, means shit. In the end, the machine is still his and no TOS you make can take that right away.
 
squatingyeti said:
So, why wouldn't sony choose that as the proof he has been on PSN? They have shown nothing, other than picking a registered name that is a variation on his known used name. If they wanted to prove anything, it would have included evidence that tied that to his machine, but they did not.

Furthermore, the act of agreeing to the TOS, IMHO, means shit. In the end, the machine is still his and no TOS you make can take that right away.
Maybe because Geohot isn't him, it was taken, instead he chose Geo1Hotz. I dunno, at this point we're all guessing. But makes no sense to take it for granted that he did not have a PSN account.
 

Zoe

Member
squatingyeti said:
Furthermore, the act of agreeing to the TOS, IMHO, means shit. In the end, the machine is still his and no TOS you make can take that right away.

The ToS part is only to establish jurisdiction. If that part were just complete shit, the judge would have thrown it out already.
 

test_account

XP-39C²
I dont quite get this case, isnt it mainly about him (Geohot) posting the PS3 decryption keys online? Why does it matter if he if he received $1 on his Paypal account or if he agreed to the PSN TOS? And i've read that people say that EULA/TOS hold no legal value, so why does it matter if he agreed to the PNS TOS or not then? (unless that "hold no legal value" is untrue).
 

Zoe

Member
test_account said:
I dont quite get this case, isnt it mainly about him (Geohot) posting the PS3 decryption keys online? Why does it matter if he if he received $1 on his Paypal account or if he agreed to the PSN TOS? And i've read that people say that EULA/TOS hold no legal value, so why does it matter if he agreed to the PNS TOS or not then? (unless that "hold no legal value" is untrue).

First, that last part is in fact, untrue. They may hold legal value, they may not. It depends on what you're agreeing to.

Right now, the argument is over whether the jurisdiction clause holds any weight.
 

test_account

XP-39C²
Zoe said:
First, that last part is in fact, untrue. They may hold legal value, they may not. It depends on what you're agreeing to.

Right now, the argument is over whether the jurisdiction clause holds any weight.
Ok, i see. What is the jurisdiction case about by the way? I'm not a laywer, but it seems kinda wierd to me that there is a question about jurisdiction if posting decryption keys to a security system that isnt yours online is legal or not. Or is the jurisdiction case about something else?
 

Zoe

Member
test_account said:
Ok, i see. What is the jurisdiction case about by the way? I'm not a laywer, but it seems kinda wierd to me that there is a question about jurisdiction if posting decryption keys to a security system that isnt yours online is legal or not. Or is the jurisdiction case about something else?

It's simply about what court it will be tried in and what local laws apply. Sony wants it tried in California because that's where their team of lawyers are. If they lose out on jurisdiction, they'll have to go at it in New Jersey which means they'd probably have to hire more/new lawyers.

Local laws shouldn't be a problem though because New Jersey has similar laws concerning computer crimes.
 

Safe Bet

Banned
squatingyeti said:
In the end, the machine is still his and no TOS you make can take that right away.
Does owning the machine means he "owns" everything in it and can copy/share anything in it?

Does he have the "right" to redistribute the machine's encryption keys, does he have the right to redistribute other tech held within the machine, etc..?
 

test_account

XP-39C²
Zoe said:
It's simply about what court it will be tried in and what local laws apply. Sony wants it tried in California because that's where their team of lawyers are. If they lose out on jurisdiction, they'll have to go at it in New Jersey which means they'd probably have to hire more/new lawyers.

Local laws shouldn't be a problem though because New Jersey has similar laws concerning computer crimes.
Ok, so if the californian judge in this case says that there isnt any jurisdiction, then Sony can just move the case to New Jersey instead? Does this mean that they must file a brand new case against him or does the case just gets transfered from California to New Jersey?
 

Zoe

Member
test_account said:
Ok, so if the californian judge in this case says that there isnt any jurisdiction, then Sony can just move the case to New Jersey instead? Does this mean that they must file a brand new case against him or does the case just gets transfered from California to New Jersey?

New case
 

Donos

Member
Whatever stupid and false claims Sony has, these lawsuits still deliver the message for ppl touting their "hacking" everywhere from the roofs . Sony has the money and lawyers to drag these things. And even if you/hackers don't have to pay anything in the end it still is time consuming and bothersome.
 
Donos said:
Whatever stupid and false claims Sony has, these lawsuits still deliver the message for ppl touting their "hacking" everywhere from the roofs . Sony has the money and lawyers to drag these things. And even if you/hackers don't have to pay anything in the end it still is time consuming and bothersome.

Normally I'd agree with you, but honestly, so far Sony seems to be doing a terrible job of it, and may have been setting themselves up for a failure that would've served as an important precedent in similar cases afterward. In a way, getting this case dismissed does act as a kind of reset button for them, I assume they won't make some of the more obvious mistakes twice.
 

Donos

Member
Kulock said:
Normally I'd agree with you, but honestly, so far Sony seems to be doing a terrible job of it, and may have been setting themselves up for a failure that would've served as an important precedent in similar cases afterward. In a way, getting this case dismissed does act as a kind of reset button for them, I assume they won't make some of the more obvious mistakes twice.

But like some said at the beginning of this thread, Sony HAD to drag someone to court for this even if they knew that everything they had against them is bullshit or rather weak on evidence. Shareholders, 3rd party devs etc are watching and it would harm Sony more if it seems that they don't care and "hackers" are safe whatever they do. Someone rips the PS3 wide open and Sony doing "nothing" except maybe some Firmwareupdate would make them look weaker than sueing guys having conferences and blog post about how they rocked the "f@1l" security of the PS3.
Sorry for my english.
 
I'm not arguing about whether they had to sue or not, but it just appears to me that they really didn't have their case together before rushing to court, and they might pay for early, careless mistakes.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
Donos said:
But like some said at the beginning of this thread, Sony HAD to drag someone to court for this even if they knew that everything they had against them is bullshit or rather weak on evidence. Shareholders, 3rd party devs etc are watching and it would harm Sony more if it seems that they don't care and "hackers" are safe whatever they do. Someone rips the PS3 wide open and Sony doing "nothing" except maybe some Firmwareupdate would make them look weaker than sueing guys having conferences and blog post about how they rocked the "f@1l" security of the PS3.
Sorry for my english.

The problem is, if their case is so weak that they lose and end up paying costs and/or compensation (as they damn well should on some of their claims) they'll look even weaker. Not only will the hackers have rocked the f@1l security of the PS3, they'll have rocked their f@1l lawyers as well. Game, set and match.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
Safe Bet said:
Does owning the machine means he "owns" everything in it and can copy/share anything in it?

Does he have the "right" to redistribute the machine's encryption keys, does he have the right to redistribute other tech held within the machine, etc..?

Utterly irrelevant to that part of their case. What they seem to be doing is desperately trying to conflate multiple claims. They want people to think like you are - that one case against him runs into the next. They don't.

The particular claim about him compromising the security on the machine stands alone. It's illegal to do that - but the law is there for compromising the security on someone else's machine. That they're claiming he's committed a crime by hacking into his own machine is a bad joke. They'd love to win that one, of course, because it would establish a precedent that you don't even own the hardware they sell you.
 
Plus, why make it more public, through a lawsuit you'll probably lose, that your system has been hacked? It is like waving a big banner for the rest of the world who hadn't heard yet.
 
Donos said:
But like some said at the beginning of this thread, Sony HAD to drag someone to court for this even if they knew that everything they had against them is bullshit or rather weak on evidence. Shareholders, 3rd party devs etc are watching and it would harm Sony more if it seems that they don't care and "hackers" are safe whatever they do. Someone rips the PS3 wide open and Sony doing "nothing" except maybe some Firmwareupdate would make them look weaker than sueing guys having conferences and blog post about how they rocked the "f@1l" security of the PS3.
Sorry for my english.
who did Nintendo and MS drag into court? yeah, exactly. Sony chose the wrong type of person to drag.
 

Zoe

Member
Vincent Alexander said:
Plus, why make it more public, through a lawsuit you'll probably lose, that your system has been hacked? It is like waving a big banner for the rest of the world who hadn't heard yet.

If this lawsuit is successful, it will be the greatest thing ever for console manufacturers.
 

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
Safe Bet said:
Which he was fully aware would happen when he "shared" what he had learned with the world.

Sharing what you know, does NOT make you responsible for someone doing something with THEIR machine. I think that's absolutely ridiculous. I for one, don't see how this is any different than jailbreaking an Ipod/pad/phone. Those guys would also be "fully aware of [what] would happen" when they shared what they learned. However, the courts agree that thinking like that is not only stupid, but people have the right to jailbreak if they choose.

Again, the person owning the device must make the choice to do something, telling someone how does not make you responsible for their actions.

ZOE said:
If this lawsuit is successful, it will be the greatest thing ever for console manufacturers.
And the worst thing ever for consumers. I cannot fathom how any court, after the jailbreak ruling, can differentiate the consumer's ownership of products they purchased.
 

Jobiensis

Member
squatingyeti said:
after the jailbreak ruling

The jailbreak is, unfortunately, irrelevant.

Computer programs that enable wireless telephone handsets to execute software applications, where circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of enabling interoperability of such applications, when they have been lawfully obtained, with computer programs on the telephone handset.

DMCA should die in a fire, it is a horrible piece of legislation.
 
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