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[Lard]

Er, Europe?

And the US, of course.

But I guess people are going to say the DMCA is absolute garbage etc etc. Still, whether you like it or not, it is illegal.

At least Canada hasn't hit rock bottom yet, despite our ridiculous internet.

 

[Emitan]

At least Canada hasn't hit rock bottom yet, despite our ridiculous internet.

Don't worry, my government has been pressuring yours for so long it's only a matter of time until we're both just as fucked.

 

[mclem]

Er, Europe?

(c) any act of putting into circulation, or the possession for
commercial purposes of, any means the sole intended
purpose of which is to facilitate the unauthorised removal
or circumvention of any technical device which may have
been applied to protect a computer program.

That appears to state that it's illegal to distribute it, and illegal to use it for commercial gain, but *not* illegal to use it full stop.

 

[Raist]

That appears to state that it's illegal to distribute it, and illegal to use it for commercial gain, but *not* illegal to use it full stop.

Which is kinda relevant in a thread dedicated to the geohot vs sony issue?

 

[minus_273]

Er, Europe?



And the US, of course.



But I guess people are going to say the DMCA is absolute garbage etc etc. Still, whether you like it or not, it is illegal.

Jailbreaking phones has a DMCA exception in the US. If they bring up this it will likely receive an exception too. The law focuses on enabling homebrew.

"Computer programs that enable wireless telephone handsets to execute software applications, where circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of enabling interoperability of such applications, when they have been lawfully obtained, with computer programs on the telephone handset."


http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/library-of-congress-adds-dmca-exception-for-jailbreaking-or-root/

 

[Zoe]

Jailbreaking phones has a DMCA exception in the US. If they bring up this it will likely receive an exception too.

Not for another 2-3 years. And then the exemption would have to be renewed every 3 years.

 

[mclem]

Which is kinda relevant in a thread dedicated to the geohot vs sony issue?

But not in answer to LovingSteam's precise question, which was strictly about the *hacking*, not the broadcasting of said hack.

Besides which, there's one other convenient potential loophole - and I stress potential, it's rather dependent on how well the lawyers on each side argue the case:

(c) any act of putting into circulation, or the possession for
commercial purposes of, any means the sole intended
purpose of which is to facilitate the unauthorised removal
or circumvention of any technical device which may have
been applied to protect a computer program.

Sole intended purpose. That's an awfully powerful statement.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Sole intended purpose. That's an awfully powerful statement.

It just means you can legally sell modchips which double as air fresheners.

 

[Dunlop]

That appears to state that it's illegal to distribute it, and illegal to use it for commercial gain, but *not* illegal to use it full stop.

He posted on the internet for all to see

 

[Raist]

Sole intended purpose. That's an awfully powerful statement.

It is. Problem is, you can claim that it's for "fair" and "legit" use of homebrew only, the method used in the end circumvents protection measures that prevent you from installing random stuff on the console in the first place.

 

[plagiarize]

But, for example, in PS2 era there were a lot of computer shops that offered the service of adding "backup game" chips to PS2, so any 15yo child was able to pirate games easy, with only a small fee. The police knew that the use of those machines were used mainly for pirate games, that it was already illegal (unless here we had an amazingly huge linux community of 15 yo guys) but there was no legal way to stop the massive piracy, because the ads talked about "backup loaders" instead of "pirate games". So they changed the law to forbid the modifications done to surpass security systems.

Yeah, that don't avoid the piracy, but at least it make it more difficult.

i understand how it works, but i don't see why we should ban something which has legal uses because they also have illegal uses. like i say, if i'm to blame for piracy for downloading cracks Sony should be to blame for piracy because they sell DVD burners and i'd bet that a large percentage of those are used for copying things that shouldn't be.

even if it gets made illegal globally it's not going to change my opinion that it shouldn't be illegal.

 

[squatingyeti]

Let's all understand one thing, stuff like the DMCA and other ridiculous "laws" are only all encompassing and make everything illegal until they are challenged. The very idea of creating a law saying it is illegal to do X, may be illegal itself. I guess a better explanation is creating a law, does not make that law itself legal. It's just that the law was not challenge and ruled illegal itself.

What geohot did should NOT be illegal. He told other people what they could do to get homebrew on a machine they own. He did not do it for them, and neither did ANY coder. The consumer had to make the choice on their own to take the steps.

We should all remember, that at the time, jailbreaking an iPhone was "illegal". When looked at further, it was decided our consumer rights were actually important and saying something like that is illegal is stupid.

 

[squatingyeti]

i understand how it works, but i don't see why we should ban something which has legal uses because they also have illegal uses. like i say, if i'm to blame for piracy for downloading cracks Sony should be to blame for piracy because they sell DVD burners and i'd bet that a large percentage of those are used for copying things that shouldn't be.

even if it gets made illegal globally it's not going to change my opinion that it shouldn't be illegal.

Sony used the idea that the Betamax had perfectly legal uses despite the fact it could be used illegally. They now would like to change course and claim the idea something could be used illegally outweighs the fact it has perfectly legal uses.

 

[Zeal]

a lot of Tyler Durden talk going on in this thread.

 

[blu]

Problem is, you can claim that it's for "fair" and "legit" use of homebrew only, the method used in the end circumvents protection measures that prevent you from installing random stuff on the console in the first place.

Not much of a problem, according to Article 6 of the same EU law your original quote is from.

 

[Raist]

Not much of a problem, according to Article 6 of the same EU law your original quote is from.

Sure. Except that it clashes with article 7 1a. The sole purpose of his patch is to circumvent security measures in place to prevent installation of random stuff.
Same for Paragraph 3 of article 6.

 

[mclem]

Do you mean 7 1c? 7 1a doesn't appear to match with what you're saying.

"Disallowing installation of random stuff on the console" is arguably not a "technical device which may have been applied to protect a computer program." - after all, precisely which program is it protecting?

"Disallowing execution of a pirated copy" *would* fit that bill, and circumventing that restriction would definitely break the laws here.

When things get specific, the laws are definitely breached. In the general case, though, I'm not sure they do.

 

[phosphor112]

I don't know if this goes here... it's semi related to the court case, but Graf_Chokolo has some fighting words for Sony.

Graf_chokolo, famous for a multitude of decryption payloads, has warned Sony to back off. Earlier today, several sites were issued Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) notices, ordering them to stop hosting several famous PS3 dev's projects. Sites such as GitHub complied with the order, and removed projects being worked on by coders Kakarotoks, Graf_Chokolo, and Kmeaw.



In response to these actions, earlier today on XorLoser's blog, Graf_Chokolo gave Sony an ultimatum. He stated that if Sony was to continue such tactics, that he will publish his IDA database, for the PS3's Hypervisor and Hypervisor processes. What this means, is that reverse engineering the hypervisor would immediately become much easier for other developers using IDA Pro Disassembler. IDA Pro is a popular tool, commonly used in reverse engineering software.

Read more: PSGroove.com - Graf_Chokolo Tells Sony to Back Off or Else... http://psgroove.com/content.php?712-Graf_Chokolo-Tells-Sony-to-Back-Off-or-Else...#ixzz1COlQHHib

I'm not legal major, but that sounds like black mail, which is... well illegal.

 

[Link1110]

I don't know if this goes here... it's semi related to the court case, but Graf_Chokolo has some fighting words for Sony.



I'm not legal major, but that sounds like black mail, which is... well illegal.

Extortion, technically since what he's threatening to do wold be illegal if he just went ahead and did it without the threat.

 

[phosphor112]

Extortion, technically since what he's threatening to do wold be illegal if he just went ahead and did it without the threat.

Oh. So is blackmail like saying "give me 5000 dollars or I will tell everyone you have a mistress" versus, "give me 5000 dollars or I will publish your credit card information on the internet."

This guy is treading into some deep waters.

 

[Pureauthor]

Well it's nice to know that everyone involved is acting like a moron.

 

[Dead Man]

What I am finding amusing is the sense I get that Sony thinks its industrial secrets are worth more legal protection than the US governments state secrets. What would happen if a journalist published this information? Would Sony sue them?

 

[mr_toa]

Sure. Except that it clashes with article 7 1a. The sole purpose of his patch is to circumvent security measures in place to prevent installation of random stuff.
Same for Paragraph 3 of article 6.

And that's exactly what the DMCA did get expanded to allow smartphone owners to do via jailbreaking. Seeing how the Register recommended compared to European directives, this might vey well also be deemed legal for consoles, if tried under European juristiction.

 

[blu]

Sure. Except that it clashes with article 7 1a. The sole purpose of his patch is to circumvent security measures in place to prevent installation of random stuff.
Same for Paragraph 3 of article 6.

Did you actually read the whole Article 7?

Article 7

Special measures of protection

1. Without prejudice to the provisions of Articles 4, 5 and 6, Member States shall provide, in accordance with their national legislation, appropriate remedies against a person committing any of the following acts:

 

[Foffy]

What I am finding amusing is the sense I get that Sony thinks its industrial secrets are worth more legal protection than the US governments state secrets. What would happen if a journalist published this information? Would Sony sue them?

Seeing the hilarious US response to the Wikileaks cable leaks, I wouldn't be surprised if Sony wanted to charge journalists who publish information.

 

[Jobiensis]

I'm not legal major, but that sounds like black mail, which is... well illegal.

Nah, it's not even a clear cut case of extortion.

 

[phosphor112]

Nah, it's not even a clear cut case of extortion.

Never thought of that, well, we know it's a clear cut case of blackmail.

 

[Safe Bet]

Graf_Chokolo has some fighting words for Sony.

Edit:

please disregard this post

I should have waited for more intelligent people than myself to explain "what this means" before hitting submit.

 

[Sophia]

Why would you spend your life on the deconstruction of other people's software instead of writing your own?

Because he wants to prove a point; That not even a (in his view) corrupt law can help Sony stop the homebrew scene now.

If you agree with that point or not, and it's related issues, is another thing.

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

Nice. Good job.

I hope Sony win this case and he has to pay the massive Sony's lawyers bill and some more. Serves him right. Maybe that'll force him to get a job or put his brain for something more productive than just hacking.

fuck sony


/stillbitteroverbleemcast

 

[Safe Bet]

Because he wants to prove a point

His point/belief being all hardware should be "open"?

 

[Sophia]

His point being all hardware should be "open"?

No, his point being that Sony should quit using the law to try and punish people for using their legally bought hardware as they see fit.

 

[Dambrosi]

His point/belief being all hardware should be "open"?

Hmm, apparently not:

That not even a (in his view) corrupt law can help Sony stop the homebrew scene now.

Reading comprehension ftw?

Anyway, this thread's taken a turn for the stupid. I'm out.

 

[Safe Bet]

..using their legally bought hardware as they see fit.

Uh..

That's what I meant when I said "open".

 

[Sophia]

Uh..

That's what I meant when I said "open".

I guess. It's less about the hardware being open and more about blackmailing Sony tho. *shrugs*

I can't really blame him. We're at the point where consoles are effectively PCs anyhow.

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

Uh..

That's what I meant when I said "open".

the internet is really gonna test the waters on what is "owned" nowadays.

with everything and everyone being connected, the company still has its hand up your dress even when you bought the hardware.

 

[Vagabundo]

His point/belief being all hardware should be "open"?

All hardware is open. It just depends on how determined you are.

 

[Sophia]

All hardware is open. It just depends on how determined you are.

This is true. This is what makes Sony's tactics even more ludicrous. You're fighting an uphill battle the moment the hardware hits consumers hands, making it inevitable that it will be opened one way or the other.

Had they continued to embrace the homebrew scene, rather then making them enemies, this whole situation of cat and mouse, threats, and blackmailing could have been avoided.

 

[RustyNails]

Has this been posted? Apologies if it did.

Sony gets restraining order on Hotz: Judge orders George Hotz to cease all hacking of console, turn over PCs and hard drives within two weeks.

Sony won its first victory in a lawsuit against PlayStation 3 hackers this week, as a judge granted the electronics giant a temporary restraining order preventing lead defendant George Hotz from further hacking of the console. Additionally, Hotz must now turn over his computers, hard drives, and all other storage materials related to Sony's legal team within 10 business days.
..
In opposing the restraining order, Hotz's attorney pointed out that with the PS3 security keys already readily available online as a result of the hacking, there was no further injury to prevent. "That cat is not going back in the bag," he said.

Why ten days though? That will just give George Hotz time to delete any "evidence".

Edit: Oh forgot to include the meatiest part:

The judge signed off on Sony's proposed restraining order with minimal edits, agreeing that the order was "necessary to prevent immediate and irreparable injury" to Sony. Additionally, the court determined Sony "has shown a likelihood of success on the merits of its claims for violation of the [Digital Millennium Copyright Act] and the [Computer Fraud and Abuse Act]."

 

[Cheerilee]

Why ten days though? That will just give George Hotz time to delete any "evidence".

It takes time to mail a computer from New Jersey to California. And if he deletes anything, they can probably nail him for that.

Edit: Oh forgot to include the meatiest part:

I think that means the court is accepting that Sony may have a valid case that's allowed to proceed, that it's not without merit. A judge can't tell you that you're probably going to win/lose before the trial even starts.

 

[RustyNails]

It takes time to mail a computer from New Jersey to California. And if he deletes anything, they can probably nail him for that.

My question is how will they know? I'm such a legal noob.

 

[DonMigs85]

My question is how will they know? I'm such a legal noob.

They can tell if he deletes certain files because the data will still exist on the HDD, complete with timestamp - unless he formats the whole drive and writes 0's over it, but of course they'll be able to tell that too.

 

[RyanDG]

My question is how will they know? I'm such a legal noob.

Whenever you delete something, its not ever gone. It's still on the hard drive. Only way to really delete something is to re-write it over and over with information - generally 0's and 1's (or any other information can be used) until it is so fragmented it's not recoverable. Problem is that is also traceable to show that it was done - and will be argued it was done in violation of the order and he can get in trouble for that (though the original evidence may not be there).

 

[RustyNails]

Ah. Thanks guys. But a person as tech-savvy as him, would he have some tools or scripts to erase his tracks? I'm sure tools like those are in the wild somewhere.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Ah. Thanks guys. But a person as tech-savvy as him, would he have some tools or scripts to erase his tracks? I'm sure tools like those are in the wild somewhere.

Exactly.

 

[RyanDG]

Ah. Thanks guys. But a person as tech-savvy as him, would he have some tools or scripts to erase his tracks? I'm sure tools like those are in the wild somewhere.

That's the problem. The only way to complete erase his tracks would be to physically destroy/damage the drive. And by doing so he would be in violation of the court order. Otherwise, there will always be traces of his activity based on the nature of the technology that causes the drives to work.

 

[Glowingmonx]

''oops''

 

[BobTheFork]

''oops''

It's D-Ban(tm) and RUNNNNN!

 

[wsippel]

They can tell if he deletes certain files because the data will still exist on the HDD, complete with timestamp - unless he formats the whole drive and writes 0's over it, but of course they'll be able to tell that too.

Unless he knows what he's doing. Or uses a UNIX or UNIX like system. Or both. And he probably does. Both.

 

[Cheerilee]

Ah. Thanks guys. But a person as tech-savvy as him, would he have some tools or scripts to erase his tracks? I'm sure tools like those are in the wild somewhere.

Then they'd find evidence of the tools.

If he was smart, he did all his illegal stuff on one set of computers, and all his legal stuff on another, but the whole case is just one great big DMCA violation unless it's not, so it's not like there'd be much of a difference between the two sets of computers.