MotorbreathX
Member
Glad your opinion doesn't mean shit in the real world. He can do what he wants. Not what you find productive to society.canova said:
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Sony sues George 'geohot' Hotz and fail0verflow over PS3 jailbreak.
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DangerousDave
Member
Godslay said:
It's not so simple as corporations vs consumers.
Godslay said:
You make this statement as thought it's fact. It's really not. There are a lot more nuances to Sony's arguments than "LOL Sony sent him $1", "LOL Geoh1t". The problem is in this thread is that people are more than willing to accept the defense's arguments and not giving fair consideration to Sony's. There's bias here (nothing wrong with that), and it's obvious by all of the comments surrounding the documents that people have been overly optimistic of the case (in favor of geohot) without really understanding the crux of a lot of the arguments. That's fair. We should be supporting geohot. Most people who support Sony's lawsuit don't really understand what it is that they can potentially gain with a solid win in this case. It has potential to set up a very dangerous precedence that has far-reaching effects for future consoles and the idea of ownership.
In fact, I would probably say that if this case plays out in a specific way, it is going to be far more impactful to our industry than what the iPhone's jailbreak ruling was for the mobile industry.
Do I think Sony is going to ultimately prevail in this case? Probably not overall, but there are definitely some intriguing parts of the lawsuit that should at least be of some worry to geohot. It's nowhere near as cut and dry as what this case seems to be portrayed here in this thread.
giving sony all of his computers and hacking utilities won't do shit, but i hope he was smart enough not to have any really personal or incriminating evidence regarding other 'projects' stored on them.
either way, this is over the line and bullshit. whatever asshole judge approved this needs to have his pockets checked for wads of sony cash.
either way, this is over the line and bullshit. whatever asshole judge approved this needs to have his pockets checked for wads of sony cash.
Godslay said:
Look, as I've stated in the past, Sony removing OtherOS is wrong. But this is not the way to get back to them. File a complaint or file a lawsuit against Sony or something.
But publishing protective keys inside a PS3, something that's placed there to fight piracy, is wrong too.
I know I'm preaching to the choir here or in the homebrew thread, so I'm just gonna leave it at that
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
canova said:
A lawsuit was filed against Sony and so far nothing has come of it. And while I can understand the anger at publishing the keys on the web, it being 'wrong' (relative) isn't the same as being illegal. Do you still not understand what is at stake here? Whether the product you buy is actually yours to do what you want to. That is what is at stake. Do you actually own that console or are you renting it? I don't see how anybody can defend Sony in this case. This isn't about Geohot any longer. This is about YOU, ME, and every other person who purchases a piece of electronics.
Zoe
Member
LovingSteam said:
Nothing will ever stop people from tinkering with things on their own, in the privacy of their home.
AT THIS POINT IN TIME, it is illegal to circumvent the security methods in place in the PS3. What geohot did is circumvent those measures and then he broadcast it to the whole world so others could circumvent those measures. If he had kept his mouth shut, kept to private circles, none of this would have happened.
DangerousDave
Member
linkboy said:
Yes. GeoHot publish some keys that allow anyone to play pirated games. Yes, you still can do a lot of other things with it, but it's no coincidence that we can "play our own games without getting up to change the disc" much before to read mkv. Simply because the demand of "backup games" is much greater than the demand of "amazing multimedia mkv reader".
As I said, it's like cracking a game. You are allowing people that legally purchased the game to play it without putting it in the disc tray. But if I see someone cracking a game that I made my first though is not "Oh, that guy is a very good guy. He allow a lot of people to avoid inserting the disc in the disc tray." Profesional deformation maybe
The implications of breaking the security system of a console it's obviously good news for pirates, and even good news for legit homebrew users that want to do what they want with their machines. But they're bad news for a lot of companies. Not only for Sony, for a lot of third parties, from the bigger corporations to the smallest indie developers, that made the software for a closed machine (paying extra fees in order to work for it) to be safer from piracy effects. If piracy is over some reasonable margins, there are no benefits and the companies suffers, but also the users.
That mechanism of corporations vs consumers is very simplistic. Because in the "corporations" side there is not only Bobby Kotick, there are also small and humble companies and also regular people that works for big companies, but they work a lot of hours without getting rich. Is like the old "workers vs capitalists", when in the "capitalist" side you put from Bill Gates to the owner of a small shop that works 14h each day to carry on.
Marrshu said:
Again, not so simple. If those numbers, instead of being the encryption keys of an evil corporation that sell consoles at 600$ and charge us 60$ for 8 hour games, was, for example, the master keys of a security alarm that you use, that will allow you to modify the alarm sound, but it will allow any thief that read that code on the web to turn off the alarm... you will still think that is something about corporations trying to silence something that a consumer said? And I'm not comparing pirates or homebrew users to house robbers, is an example that not always leaking private information of corporate products is good.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Zoe said:
Please show where its illegal to circumvent the security methods of the PS3.
DangerousDave
Member
LovingSteam said:
In Spain it is.
Ey, you said "where".
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Zoe said:
The same DMCA that allows the jailbreaking of phones. Yea, because one is different than the other.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Zoe said:
We will find out if that is the case. Won't we. And the legality or illegality of it doesn't change the fact that this case isn't about Geohot. This case is about consumer rights and whether we own the product we purchase. This is why I am astonished that so many on such a forum are ready to vote for the corporation to win, thereby stating that you do not in fact on your consoles.
DangerousDave
Member
LovingSteam said:
And I don't understand since when cracking games is considered a user right.
Zoe
Member
LovingSteam said:
No, we won't. Exemptions set by the Library of Congress are revisited every 3 years. The current exceptions are:
http://www.copyright.gov/1201/ (abridged for brevity)
Nothing in there about video game console firmware.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Zoe said:
And if that were the case then the GeoHot one would be open shut except it isn't. So no, it isn't as simple as 'Well DMCA says no so its no.' Although you will obviously continue to spin it that way as you have since day one.
DangerousDave said:
lol and back to the cracking games we go.
DangerousDave
Member
Minsc said:
The not-so-funny part of the obtrusive DRM was to make more difficult the piracy, because games got pirated too easy.
So, if no one had pirated PC games first, the legit users shouldn't suffer the consequences of the DRM.
In the end, is not very different to the PS3 issue.
LovingSteam said:
This isn't necessarily true. Even a case that is fairly obvious on its merits still has to go through the appropriate court channels, and will take time to resolve.
I don't like the DMCA, and think that Geohotz should have the right to publish the PS3's codes if he is able to acquire them through hacking, but the law is the law. It's definitely not cut and dried.
Unless the DMCA is found unconstitutional or something, or the Library of Congress decides to create another exception, I'm not sure how Geohotz will win.
Zoe
Member
LovingSteam said:
It hasn't been open and shut because that's not what the primary case has been about yet. First, Sony needed the TRO and in order to get that they needed the jurisdiction established.
Also, geohot isn't being pursued by law enforcement (at this time). Sony is pursuing damages caused to them.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Zoe said:
No kidding he isn't being pursued by law enforcement. Sony isn't just pursuing damages caused to them, they are trying to reinvent the concept of private ownership. And again, people on GAF support them in it. Blows my mind.
No it isnt. I think is even allowed in the latest 2006 law modification if it prevents you from backuping your game.DangerousDave said:
Computer programs are, games and movies arent.
So if no one made games no games would have been pirated and there would be no drm! Also no game related jobs.
CadetMahoney
Member
Lince said:
That's what I want to know, too many alarmist posts before the fact (UC2 has some gltiches). Let's wait and see how it all turns out cheating-wise.MrNyarlathotep said:
Freyjadour
Member
DangerousDave said:
If If If. Vicious cycles that leave legitimate users unhappy.
But it never works. The DRM is always cracked. Always. And it always will be.DangerousDave said:
Many developers (particularly indie devs) sell games without DRM and still make a profit, some even enough to give their games away for charity. If they can do that, why can't others?
squatingyeti
non-sanctioned troll
Zoe said:
It's illegal just like it was for the iPhone. How can no one else see the parallels here? The problem is, it shouldn't be illegal. He shouldn't have to keep it to himself. The DMCA is a draconian piece of shit that needs to be destroyed. Instead, it's being pushed on other countries.
Freyjadour
Member
squatingyeti said:
Not going to happen with people clamoring for more.
BoboBrazil
Member
I think Wii and Xbox 360 kind of prove that even with stuff like this out you can have a successful console and sell alot of software and hardware. If anything this helps sell more hardware, which helps Sony because those people will buy blu-ray movies and games. Sony are just being bullies and using scare tactics. What does Sony hope to gain from suing him? How would they determine a number for monetary damages? They are blowing money on a case that can have no positive outcome for them. If the guy actually goes to prison over this it is bullshit.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
The iPhone exception was made since it was a hot issue at the time they were reviewing the current list of exemptions. This whole case may end up causing game console firmware to also end up on the list as a result. Or it could end up going the other way. You can never tell with these cases.squatingyeti said:
They're keeping their shareholders happy. That's the duty of any publicly-listed company. Sad, but true.BoboBrazil said:
And nobody is going to jail over this. It's a civil matter, not a criminal one. An incredibly important civil matter that may determine the fate of consumer rights in the US, but, ultimately, not something to go to prison over.
CadetMahoney
Member
Were they selling out before? Didn't know that lol.Lyphen said:
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Lince said:
He's gone and can't respond, but the only circumstances under which I can see someone being laid off specifically for reasons of piracy would be somebody who is downloading massive amounts of warez on their work computer on work time using their work internet connection.
Or the guy who fucked up sonys encryption I guess.
Developers don't get laid off due to piracy, because the existing publisher model means developers have already been paid what they're going to get (outside of mega success bonuses) in the development cycle.
Developers do get laid off if their last title didn't sell many copies, but then it is very hard to claim that not selling many copies is a result of piracy, when there is a very direct correlation between the most pirated games and the games that sell most.
canova said:
You are aware that part of Sony case against geohot is that he specifically said he'd like to get a job preventing hacking of consoles, right?
BoboBrazil said:
AFAIK, 360 firmware flashing is only of benefit to pirates and has no homebrew application.
The wii of course has some great homebrew - wiimote controlled quake is sweet.
intheinbetween
Member
BoboBrazil said:
pretty much, and don't forget about PS2 and DS
Boombloxer
Member
Not exactly. It depends on the type of game and the structure of the agreement.
Reading these threads are always interesting, even if the sides never change.
Godslay said:
It's a common misconception on the side of a lot of the consumer rights fans that Sony barely has a leg to stand on. A lot of their case is utter bullshit, and raising some of the shit that they're trying to push through should be severely punishable as blackmail ("do what we say or we'll shower you with expensive lawyers making utter bullshit claims") and wasting court time.
There are, though, a few bits in there that could have some validity to them. Essentially the two parts that spring to mind immediately from my initial reading of their documents and the decisions to date are the argument for jurisdiction due to the impact on Sony in California, and the DMCA case - although this is a very anti-consumer case, the DMCA is a very anti-consumer law.
DangerousDave said:As I said, it's like cracking a game. You are allowing people that legally purchased the game to play it without putting it in the disc tray. But if I see someone cracking a game that I made my first though is not "Oh, that guy is a very good guy. He allow a lot of people to avoid inserting the disc in the disc tray." Profesional deformation maybe
I'd be thinking how stupid it was to make a game that was only conveniently playable if you had a pirated version, where the experience for the pirate is better than the experience for the user. I'd be cursing management for forcing us to code in such a way, and I'd be thinking about ways around the problem for my next release, too.
DangerousDave
Member
iapetus said:
I was not talking here about PC obtrusive DRM, only about the normal have the disc in the tray to play. But, whatever...
In a ideal world where pirates don't exist, you don't have to bother the user with DRM, with original disc checking, or a Dial-A-Pirate. And in a world where thieves don't exist, you don't have to bother to close your door with three keys and turning your security alarm on.
What you are saying is: Don't close the door of your house. If a thief really want to enter, he will enter. And you are only pissing off the legal people that is coming to your house, that have to wait until you unlock all the locks of the door.
DRM and other obtrusive methods are annoying, but they're not added to sadistically torture the users because game developers are evil. They are trying to protect their investment to be able to do more games.
iapetus said:There are, though, a few bits in there that could have some validity to them. Essentially the two parts that spring to mind immediately from my initial reading of their documents and the decisions to date are the argument for jurisdiction due to the impact on Sony in California, and the DMCA case - although this is a very anti-consumer case, the DMCA is a very anti-consumer law.
I wonder if the removal of OItherOS will factor into Sony's chances here. It seems pretty cut and dried with the DMCA - unless there are some precedents Geohot can use.
I wonder if the library of congress will allow an exception for the jailbreak for other OS?
iapetus said:
Isn't that always the way? The pirated, jailbroke or hacked are always more convienent to use. The pirates have a better life.
robertsan21
Member
Scary to see consumers siding with Sony!!
Piracy or not, we own our product and we should be able to do whatever we want with it!
Piracy or not, we own our product and we should be able to do whatever we want with it!
DangerousDave said:
Ah, we're in shitty analogy world again. Allow me to present the other side of the shitty analogy. In an ideal world we wouldn't have to send people to prison for murder, but we do. Sometimes we don't do this soon enough, and the criminals kill again.
What you are saying is: Send everyone to prison for murder whether they committed it or not. The inconvenience for the innocent is a fair price to pay for making sure we get the guilty locked up.
DangerousDave said:
And in doing this they're often counterproductive, because the more obtrusive they are, the more likely they are to drive consumers to access a pirated version.
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