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[Milk Lizard]

Even Obama makes for a better drag.

 

[oxrock]

If he/she was born without a penis and has a vagina don't you think it makes sense that the person in question truly believes that they are female and aren't really cheating? I think she was just under the understanding that she was completely fugly extremely gifted woman athlete.

 

[Norml]

It was pretty obvious she was a hermaphrodite imo.

 

[wayward archer]

But look up the "woman" who does hold the world record in the 800m.

Many of the WRs for women's track and field are from an era of rampant cheating.

World Record Holder for the women's 800m:

 

[Ninja Scooter]

World Record Holder for the women's 800m:

Why is her bulge bigger than mine?

 

[SlipperySlope]

Internal testes, eh?

I'm assuming there's no penis? That would mean he's not able to release, right?

That sure would ratchet up your aggressiveness.

 

[Kurtofan]

World Record Holder for the women's 800m:

nice package

 

[FortunateSon]

Wow the name wasn't a tip off?

:lol :lol :lol

Amazing.

 

[harSon]

Jesus Christ, some of you are fucked up.

 

[AVclub]

If he/she was born without a penis and has a vagina don't you think it makes sense that the person in question truly believes that they are female and aren't really cheating? I think she was just under the understanding that she was completely fugly extremely gifted woman athlete.

With no ovaries or uterus, you have no period. (I'm actually curious how that works. Does the vagina just dead-end where the cervix is supposed to be?) An 18 year old girl never bleeding would have raised suspicions more than his man-hands. I don't believe a teenager gets through adolescence without at least privately exploring him/her self.

 

[harSon]

With no ovaries or uterus, you have no period. (I'm actually curious how that works. Does the vagina just dead-end where the cervix is supposed to be?) An 18 year old girl never bleeding would have raised suspicions more than his man-hands. I don't believe a teenager gets through adolescence without at least privately exploring him/her self.

She was born in a fucking village in South Africa, it's not she had infinite amounts of medical knowledge at her disposal.

 

[Hitokage]

christ sakes when did gender become such a mine field?

When biology and medical science came and fucked up everyone's traditional binary thinking on the matter.

 

[Fenderputty]

With no ovaries or uterus, you have no period. (I'm actually curious how that works. Does the vagina just dead-end where the cervix is supposed to be?) An 18 year old girl never bleeding would have raised suspicions more than his man-hands. I don't believe a teenager gets through adolescence without at least privately exploring him/her self.

Female gymnasts get their periods late all the time. Women develop sexually at a much alter age when they work out from the time they were children.

 

[levious]

With no ovaries or uterus, you have no period. (I'm actually curious how that works. Does the vagina just dead-end where the cervix is supposed to be?) An 18 year old girl never bleeding would have raised suspicions more than his man-hands. I don't believe a teenager gets through adolescence without at least privately exploring him/her self.

it would not be unusual for a female athlete to not have a normal menstrual cycle would it? I don't see how you can call her more man than woman when they've said she's a hermaphrodite and that she personally can't be held accountable.

 

[ymmv]

Here's the somewhat similar case of Erika Shinegger who once was the world champion women's downhill skier in 1966. While preparing for the 1968 winter olympics she was utterly surprised when she was disqualified by the IOC after a medical test for having male chromosomes. Erika Shinegger who had lived her whole life as a woman decided to "change sex" and live as a man. After a couple of operations he got married and even had a daughter.

Before:

After:

 

[Monroeski]

it would not be unusual for a female athlete to not have a normal menstrual cycle would it? I don't see how you can call her more man than woman when they've said she's a hermaphrodite and that she personally can't be held accountable.

I don't believe it matters if she's "more" man or "more" woman; if she's ANY man she is disqualified whether she's aware of it or not.

 

[levious]

I don't believe it matters if she's "more" man or "more" woman; if she's ANY man she is disqualified whether she's aware of it or not.

not saying she shouldn't be disqualified, just referring to AVclub calling her "he" and claiming he cheated.

 

[AVclub]

it would not be unusual for a female athlete to not have a normal menstrual cycle would it? I don't see how you can call her more man than woman when they've said she's a hermaphrodite and that she personally can't be held accountable.

Three times the normal testosterone of a woman and BALLS are what I factor in when deciding whether she's a man or a woman. It's simple, really. Women have ovaries and men have testicles. Like I said, I can understand confusion about which gender you identify with. However, knowing your physical attributes, especially if you are an athlete, is pretty mandatory.

You seriously expect people to believe that this kid has been training since she's a toddler without ever visiting doctors and having blood work done? At 18, as an Olympic athlete, she's never once visited a gynecologist or gotten a pelvic exam? Especially if the dude wasn't getting a period, someone should have investigated.

It seems pretty suspicious to me. Now that the secret has been uncovered, they are trying to play it off by pleading ignorance, but I don't buy it.

 

[nightez]

Well, I understand respecting a person's beliefs, but if the Olympic committee decides that "she" is really a "he" will you still continue to call him a her? Would you be okay with him using the female restrooms or continuing to compete in female events? It isn't so much about what you're called, as what you are. Shouldn't the two two things match up though?

Read YMMV's post, its not so black and white as you think. She's within the grey area, she may not even have a penis, probably why she was raised as female by her parents.

She grew up in a poor family family in a remote village with no scientists or anything. And its not cheating because there's no way she would have known about this.

....

 

[levious]

but they're internal AV... the balls I mean... I wouldn't assume she/he'd have the same level of health care we would consider normal, so I don't know whether it's absurd or not.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Whoever leaked the story originally is a douche. Should never have been made public that he/she was being tested. Shoulda waited for the results and then quietly retracted. It's unlikely that he knew since he probably just didn't have a period. That happens more often than people know, to regular women. Oh well. Hope it ends well for him, but I doubt it. PEACE.

 

[methane47]

Tests show world champion runner Caster Semenya is a hermaphrodite

Different page

???

I don't know.

NOT SURPRISED

we knew it.

 

[Hitokage]

It's simple, really. Women have ovaries and men have testicles.

No, it actually isn't simple sometimes. You just want it to be.

 

[Orlics]

this is a rare case when the pronouns "ze" and "hir" are actually appropriate and not just overly PC bullshit. Should make it easier for everyone

 

[methane47]

Semenya, said the paper, is unaware of the tests identifying her as a hermaphrodite.

lolol

dayam...

 

[malingenie]

It is believed Semenya is unaware the tests identify her as an hermaphrodite.

This makes me really sad. Like really. The world knows before her, and there is naught she can do.

 

[MrJollyLivesNextDoor]

Here's the somewhat similar case of Erika Shinegger who once was the world champion women's downhill skier in 1966. While preparing for the 1968 winter olympics she was utterly surprised when she was disqualified by the IOC after a medical test for having male chromosomes. Erika Shinegger who had lived her whole life as a woman decided to "change sex" and live as a man. After a couple of operations he got married and even had a daughter.

i wonder if she will react the same way after being told she is biologically a man, it would be interesting to see what he/she would look like dressed as a man, probably quite attractive i'd imagine.

 

[maharg]

Three times the normal testosterone of a woman and BALLS are what I factor in when deciding whether she's a man or a woman. It's simple, really. Women have ovaries and men have testicles. Like I said, I can understand confusion about which gender you identify with. However, knowing your physical attributes, especially if you are an athlete, is pretty mandatory.

You seriously expect people to believe that this kid has been training since she's a toddler without ever visiting doctors and having blood work done? At 18, as an Olympic athlete, she's never once visited a gynecologist or gotten a pelvic exam? Especially if the dude wasn't getting a period, someone should have investigated.

It seems pretty suspicious to me. Now that the secret has been uncovered, they are trying to play it off by pleading ignorance, but I don't buy it.

You say this like her balls are dangling out her vagina. As others have pointed out, it's not at all unusual for female athletes to have completely disrupted or absent menstrual cycles, and I highly doubt the average person (or even athlete) ever has blood work done that includes checking what chromosomes they have. It's not exactly part of a standard blood panel.

You seem under the impression that mannish looking female athletes are an unusual thing. It happens a lot, with or without gonads.

Furthermore, the ruling of the IOC or whatever is completely irrelevant to what gender she is in day to day life. They do not hold the power to determine people gender, only their fitness to compete. You know very little about her specific condition (these things are different in every case) and it is likely even more difficult for her to pass as male than female without massive amounts of reconstructive surgery and therapy.

 

[Woodsy]

Read YMMV's post, its not so black and white as you think. She's within the grey area, she may not even have a penis, probably why she was raised as female by her parents.

She grew up in a poor family family in a remote village with no scientists or anything. And its not cheating because there's no way she would have known about this.

....

I believe that the IOC rules are pretty clear - women must be XX chromosomed and men must be XY. If you are some strage anomoly (XXY, for example), despite not having anything to do with it, you are not eligible for Olympic competition.

 

[ymmv]

Three times the normal testosterone of a woman and BALLS are what I factor in when deciding whether she's a man or a woman. It's simple, really. Women have ovaries and men have testicles. Like I said, I can understand confusion about which gender you identify with. However, knowing your physical attributes, especially if you are an athlete, is pretty mandatory.

You seriously expect people to believe that this kid has been training since she's a toddler without ever visiting doctors and having blood work done? At 18, as an Olympic athlete, she's never once visited a gynecologist or gotten a pelvic exam? Especially if the dude wasn't getting a period, someone should have investigated.

It seems pretty suspicious to me. Now that the secret has been uncovered, they are trying to play it off by pleading ignorance, but I don't buy it.

It could be that she has an intersex condition called 5-alpha-reductase deficiency.

Quotes from the Wikipedia article:

The condition affects only genetic males (that is those with a Y chromosome) because DHT has no known role in female development.[2]

Individuals with 5-ARD can have normal male external genitalia, ambiguous genitalia, or normal female genitalia. They are born with male gonads, including testicles and Wolffian structures, but usually appear to have female primary sex characteristics. Consequently they are often raised as girls and may develop a female gender identity. Individuals with obvious undervirilisation at birth, e.g. hypospadias, micropenis, or complete ambiguous genitalia, are currently raised as boys.[citation needed]

Individuals with 5-ARD are generally capable of producing viable sperm. In individuals with feminized or ambiguous genitalia, there is a tendency towards a macroclitoris or microphallus, and the urethra may attach to the phallus. This structure may be capable of ejaculations as well as erections, however artificial insemination techniques or in-vitro fertilisation are necessary, due to one's inability to engage in intercourse.

At puberty, individuals often have primary amenorrhoea, and may experience virilization. This may include descending of the testes, hirsutism (facial/body hair considered normal in males — not to be confused with hypertrichosis), deepening of the voice and enlargement of the clitoris.

So it could be that Caster Semenya looked like a regular girl when she was born deep in rural south Africa and was of course raised as a girl but when she hit puberty suddenly she started developing male characteristics that neither she and her family could explain.

 

[painey]

Why is her bulge bigger than mine?

because you are barely a male.

 

[Dresden]

I hope she--or he--doesn't have to go back to living in that hovel.

What a terrible blow for an athlete.

 

[ymmv]

I believe that the IOC rules are pretty clear - women must be XX chromosomed and men must be XY. If you are some strage anomoly (XXY, for example), despite not having anything to do with it, you are not eligible for Olympic competition.

It used to be this way, but because intersexuality is so complex simply counting chromosomes is not enough. I believe AIS women are eligible to compete in the olympics despite having XY chromosomes and no ovaries/wombs, because their bodies aren't able to use testosteron/androgens so there's no competitive advantage.

ABC news special about AIS: http://i.abcnews.com/Health/MedicalMysteries/Story?id=5465752&page=1


http://www.intersexinitiative.org/news/000213.html

According to Xinhua News Agency, China's state-operated press (07/27/2008), organizing committee for the 2008 Summer Olympics in Beijing "has set up a sex determination lab to test female Olympic athletes suspected to be males." The test would examine external appearance, hormone levels, and genetic and chromosomal status of any athlete suspected of faking her sex.

Prior to 1999, the International Olympic Committee routinely verified female athletes' chromosomal sex, but it had abandoned the practice both because it had resulted in unnecessary and unfair humiliation of women born with androgen insensitivity syndrome and other XY female conditions, and also because there is no definitive medical test that can determine who should be allowed to compete as a woman. The Beijing decision runs contrary to this recent development.

 

[AVclub]

You say this like her balls are dangling out her vagina. As others have pointed out, it's not at all unusual for female athletes to have completely disrupted or absent menstrual cycles, and I highly doubt the average person (or even athlete) ever has blood work done that includes checking what chromosomes they have. It's not exactly part of a standard blood panel.

You seem under the impression that mannish looking female athletes are an unusual thing. It happens a lot, with or without gonads.

Furthermore, the ruling of the IOC or whatever is completely irrelevant to what gender she is in day to day life. They do not hold the power to determine people gender, only their fitness to compete. You know very little about her specific condition (these things are different in every case) and it is likely even more difficult for her to pass as male than female without massive amounts of reconstructive surgery and therapy.

Everything you say, I agree with. It doesn't really address my point though. I'm saying this person competed on the world stage with other women. Caster did not just step out of a hut in a remote village one day and get magically teleported into the Olympics. I don't know anything about her specific situation, but I know that there are numerous screenings through which an athlete must pass before being allowed to compete in international events. SOMEONE must have known, or at least suspected.

I'm saying that someone should be held accountable for this, and if there isn't a chromosome test involved in the blood screenings for events limited to a specific gender, then maybe there should be.

 

[Phobophile]

Well, I understand respecting a person's beliefs, but if the Olympic committee decides that "she" is really a "he" will you still continue to call him a her? Would you be okay with him using the female restrooms or continuing to compete in female events? It isn't so much about what you're called, as what you are. Shouldn't the two two things match up though?

Societal roles and physiology often don't match up. I understand and agree with the Olympic committee's rules. It's clear that genetically, you have to be a woman. That's clear cut. She shouldn't be racing anymore with women.

Should a M-to-F transgendered not be able to use the women's restrooms? What about that F-to-M pornstar? He might not be able to piss at a stall but you wouldn't know otherwise.

If this person wants to continue to be a woman, maybe it's in her best interests to take a bit more hormones. But if she was aware of her hermaphroditism and identifies with the male gender and still ran with it, defrauding the race circuit, that's a dick move. It comes down to whatever that person wants to do. It doesn't fucking hurt me either way.

 

[marsomega]

Why are you guys still calling him, "she" when it is clear both by looking and through genetic testing that he is definitely a him. I can understand being raised with gender confusion. I know hermaphrodites have it rough and all that, but this person took advantage of the male qualities he possessed to basically cheat his way into Olympic history. I don't feel the least bit bad for him.

Three times the normal testosterone of a woman and BALLS are what I factor in when deciding whether she's a man or a woman. It's simple, really. Women have ovaries and men have testicles. Like I said, I can understand confusion about which gender you identify with. However, knowing your physical attributes, especially if you are an athlete, is pretty mandatory.

You seriously expect people to believe that this kid has been training since she's a toddler without ever visiting doctors and having blood work done? At 18, as an Olympic athlete, she's never once visited a gynecologist or gotten a pelvic exam? Especially if the dude wasn't getting a period, someone should have investigated.

It seems pretty suspicious to me. Now that the secret has been uncovered, they are trying to play it off by pleading ignorance, but I don't buy it.

Two for two. Standard stubbornes or bullheadish. You type that as if she had a ball sack hanging between her legs all this time. Like someone born with a penis but believed they should always be female. What the hell do you not understand about "internal testies"? She does not have a ball sack hanging from her body. She was born with a vagina (minus internal organs.)

Her situation is not rare among people like her. It very common for people with her condition to not realise they have internal opposite sex organs until late in life if ever. (Since the condition is rare don't expect any general doctor to catch it either.)

 

[Apoc29]

Why are you guys still calling him, "she" when it is clear both by looking and through genetic testing that he is definitely a him. I can understand being raised with gender confusion. I know hermaphrodites have it rough and all that, but this person took advantage of the male qualities he possessed to basically cheat his way into Olympic history. I don't feel the least bit bad for him.

What exactly are the "male qualities" that he possesses that gives him an advantage? In general, males tend to have more muscle mass than women, but do we know how much of that actually transfers to a person with both qualities? If anything, the qualities should be diminished, seeing as you're not 100% either way.

Some people who are ambidextrous, they can use either their left or right hands equally but are not super proficient with any one in particular.

Does the power of a penis+vagina somehow equate to super-human running speeds?

 

[AVclub]

Two for two. Standard stubbornes or bullheadish. You type that as if she had a ball sack hanging between her legs all this time. Like someone born with a penis but believed they should always be female. What the hell do you not understand about "internal testies"? She does not have a ball sack hanging from her body. She was born with a vagina (minus internal organs.)

Her situation is not rare among people like her. It very common for people with her condition to not realise they have internal opposite sex organs until late in life if ever. (Since the condition is rare don't expect any general doctor to catch it either.)

Caster can identify with whatever gender he wants. It doesn't bother me. However, I won't be feeling bad for him. As an athlete, he had an unfair advantage and that is precisely the definition of cheating. None of us here know for sure whether he knew or not. I'm saying I suspect he or someone close to him must have known, but I could be wrong.

So I maintain that I don't feel bad at all for him. I do however, feel bad for the actual women who trained just as hard and were denied their opportunity to stand on that podium at the Olympic games and receive a medal because he was taking up their space.

 

[Hitokage]

Caster can identify with whatever gender he wants. It doesn't bother me. However, I won't be feeling bad for him. As an athlete, he had an unfair advantage and that is precisely the definition of cheating. None of us here know for sure whether he knew or not. I'm saying I suspect he or someone close to him must have known, but I could be wrong.

So I maintain that I don't feel bad at all for him. I do however, feel bad for the actual women who trained just as hard and were denied their opportunity to stand on that podium at the Olympic games and receive a medal because he was taking up their space.

Was Michael Phelps cheating with his disproportionately large upper body? It's an unfair advantage and everyone knew about it.

 

[maharg]

Caster can identify with whatever gender he wants. It doesn't bother me. However, I won't be feeling bad for him. As an athlete, he had an unfair advantage and that is precisely the definition of cheating. None of us here know for sure whether he knew or not. I'm saying I suspect he or someone close to him must have known, but I could be wrong.

So I maintain that I don't feel bad at all for him. I do however, feel bad for the actual women who trained just as hard and were denied their opportunity to stand on that podium at the Olympic games and receive a medal because he was taking up their space.

Apparently it does bother you, because you refuse to call her the gender she clearly identifies as. You're pointedly using male pronouns while pretty much everyone else recognizes that someone with a vagina, regardless of what's inside, and who chooses the female pronoun for herself, clearly would prefer to be called her. That may change, but it'll be her who decides that, not you or the IOC.

 

[marsomega]

Apparently it does bother you, because you refuse to call her the gender she clearly identifies as. You're pointedly using male pronouns while pretty much everyone else recognizes that someone with a vagina, regardless of what's inside, and who chooses the female pronoun for herself, clearly would prefer to be called her. That may change, but it'll be her who decides that, not you or the IOC.

It is a lost cause.

 

[Monroeski]

Was Michael Phelps cheating with his disproportionately large upper body? It's an unfair advantage and everyone knew about it.

The difference between being coincidentally born with the "perfect" dimensions for a swimmer and competing in a woman's sport as a man is so large they're not really even comparable.

What exactly are the "male qualities" that he possesses that gives him an advantage? In general, males tend to have more muscle mass than women, but do we know how much of that actually transfers to a person with both qualities? If anything, the qualities should be diminished, seeing as you're not 100% either way.

Some people who are ambidextrous, they can use either their left or right hands equally but are not super proficient with any one in particular.

Does the power of a penis+vagina somehow equate to super-human running speeds?

Obviously, being a hermaphrodite does not automatically make someone a superior world class athlete any more than being male automatically makes you a better athlete than all females on earth. Males in general, however, are better athletes than females in general, and that's just fact.

There are plenty of hermaphrodites out there that don't even consider any kind of career in sports, but in Caster's case, it looks like she "hit the lottery" of being born at least part male AND being a superior athlete.

It's not cheating to be a female competing in a male sport because at the highest levels women just straight up can't compete with men. I can't recall any track meet I've been to down to the middle school level where the female winners were even close to the males (probably younger as well, but my memory of those isn't as good).

Penis+vagina doesn't "equate to super-human running speeds," but it can, in a way, equate to super-female running speeds. This is never an issue in male sports because all you are adding to an athlete is inferior female sprinting ability, whereas on the female side they have everything to gain. Caster's world leading time of 1:55.45, and even the women's world record time of 1:53.28, wouldn't have even won state at the Texas high school championships this past year in the male division.

 

[RefigeKru]

Weren't you just posting something the other day about how shitty humans are? Now you're laughing at the way a person looks. A person who unknowingly is part man.

for shame.

Oh snap.

I feel really sorry for her, although now it's been clarified through the tests, it didn't need to be made public as it is. :/ Sucks, poor girl.

 

[Hitokage]

The difference between being coincidentally born with the "perfect" dimensions for a swimmer and competing in a woman's sport as a man is so large they're not really even comparable.

By which measure? You can't even get the basic premise of your comparison straight.

 

[ymmv]

The difference between being coincidentally born with the "perfect" dimensions for a swimmer and competing in a woman's sport as a man is so large they're not really even comparable.

But what if you're born that way? I don't think that girl should compete with women if she really gets a big advantage from male hormones, but she simply can't help it if she was born that way. If she looked like a regular baby girl when she was born and was therefore raised as a girl all her life, she can't help it that she wants to compete with women athletes. She must have known there was something wrong because of her masculine features and not getting periods, but I suppose they never probed any further because her external genitalia were female. It's a personal tragedy for her that she has to find out about her medical condition through headlines in the world press but it can't be helped. The South African athletic organisation should have had her medically examined long before she was sent to compete in international events.

 

[MC Safety]

Oh snap.

I feel really sorry for her, although now it's been clarified through the tests, it didn't need to be made public as it is. :/ Sucks, poor girl.

I've heard this argument a bunch of times today and it makes no sense.

What didn't need to be made public? The initial results for the race? The complaint and investigation? The medical findings?

What part of all of this could have been kept private?

 

[Monroeski]

By which measure? You can't even get the basic premise of your comparison straight.

By the measure that Phelps still meets the basic requirement of being male and Caster does NOT meet the basic requirement of being female?

Phelp's specific physical dimensions and abilities give him an advantage, but so does everyone else's physical dimensions in every other sport in the history of the world. There is one requirement, ONE REQUIREMENT, to compete in women's track, and that is to be a woman. She does not meet that requirement. End of story. If you drop that requirement and just throw everyone male, female, and hermaphrodite into one big pool, you would never see another female professional track and field athlete again, EVER.

But what if you're born that way? I don't think that girl should compete with women if she really gets a big advantage from male hormones, but she simply can't help it if she was born that way. If she looked like a regular baby girl when she was born and was therefore raised as a girl all her life, she can't help it that she wants to compete with women athletes. She must have known there was something wrong because of her masculine features and not getting periods, but I suppose they never probed any further because her external genitalia were female. It's a personal tragedy for her that she has to find out about her medical condition through headlines in the world press but it can't be helped. The South African athletic organisation should have had her medically examined long before she was sent to compete in international events.

I agree, it does suck for her to find out like this, and I never said that she could help being born this way, but if she's not female, she shouldn't compete with females. It doesn't matter if she wants to compete with women athletes or not if she's not a woman.

 

[RefigeKru]

I've heard this argument a bunch of times today and it makes no sense.

What didn't need to be made public? The initial results for the race? The complaint and investigation? The medical findings?

What part of all of this could have been kept private?

The whole hermaphrodite aspect along with all the speculation beforehand, even though it probably would have been discovered in the event where they take her medal away/ban her.

Even if it was made public, they could have told her first.

 

[otake]

oh god. it's a he. despite what he may think he is, he is a he and should be called a he.

 

[wayward archer]

I've heard this argument a bunch of times today and it makes no sense.

What didn't need to be made public? The initial results for the race? The complaint and investigation? The medical findings?

What part of all of this could have been kept private?

It would have been best if this had been discovered well in advance so she could have revealed it at her discretion but the instant she stepped onto the track to compete as a female athlete it becomes a public matter.

There's been gender testing in sports since the 60's for this exact reason, whether they are visible or not if you have testicles and the testosterone levels that men do you have a huge body development advantage over women who do not.

I certainly wouldn't go so far as to call it cheating, especially on her part, if anything the fault was on whomever authorized her to go and compete for South Africa.