Support NeoGAF

[Youta Mottenai]

Apparently she won't be stripped of her medal, but will be disqualified from future events. And they're advising her to get some kind of surgery because they believe something about it is life threatening.

Don't have a link on that, though, so grain of salt.

If I´m not wrong (a lot of years since college) AIS women have increased risk of testicular cancer, that´s why they are removed as soon as possible once the condition is discovered, usually during the first years of adolescence.

And wow, this subject seems to be like a "bat-signal" to the bigots. I remember the same bs in that thread about Kim Petras.

 

[SapientWolf]

If I´m not wrong (a lot of years since college) AIS women have increased risk of testicular cancer, that´s why they are removed as soon as possible once the condition is discovered, usually during the first years of adolescence.

And wow, this subject seems to be like a "bat-signal" to the bigots. I remember the same bs in that thread about Kim Petras.

I thought women didn't have testicles.

 

[blahness]

I thought women didn't have testicles.

so what exactly constitutes someone being a woman?

 

[SapientWolf]

so what exactly constitutes someone being a woman?

And on that same note, what is a man?

 

[MC Safety]

And on that same note, what is a man?

Oh, I know this! A miserable little pile of secrets!

(Sorry.)

 

[Domino Theory]

so what exactly constitutes someone being a woman?

wat

 

[Squirrel Killer]

And shim would have known no? Why put yourself through all of this. I think this is leaving everyone a little embarrassed.

No, she would not have had to have known. Could she have known? Perhaps. For her sake, I hope she knew before some tabloid announced it to sell a few copies.

If "it" identifies with the female GENDER, I'll respect that and call him "her."

That's weird imo.

And yet, it's respectful, so cope and deal.

With no ovaries or uterus, you have no period. (I'm actually curious how that works. Does the vagina just dead-end where the cervix is supposed to be?) An 18 year old girl never bleeding would have raised suspicions more than his man-hands. I don't believe a teenager gets through adolescence without at least privately exploring him/her self.

Athletic amenorrhoea is common with many female athletes.

And I'm not sure how many adolescents dig all the way into their uterus while "exploring."

It could be that she has an intersex condition called 5-alpha-reductase deficiency.

This is going to devolve into an episode of House, isn't it? I'll give you a hint, it's not lupus.

Was Michael Phelps cheating with his disproportionately large upper body? It's an unfair advantage and everyone knew about it.

That's an interesting discussion. Large feet (Ian Thorpe) or an oddly shaped body (Phelps) can be a performance enhancing attribute, but is commonly allowed. Testosterone is a performance enhancing hormone produced by the body, but excessive levels, even if naturally produced, are grounds for disqualification. It's not clear cut. Where do you draw the line? Sure, she hasn't been demolishing world records, but Caster has been competing with three times the amount of a performance enhancing hormone in her body than her competitors. Thankfully, I don't have to draw that line.

 

[Raistlin]

Why are you guys still calling him, "she" when it is clear both by looking and through genetic testing that he is definitely a him. I can understand being raised with gender confusion. I know hermaphrodites have it rough and all that, but this person took advantage of the male qualities he possessed to basically cheat his way into Olympic history. I don't feel the least bit bad for him.

Yeah, it's really unusual to identify with females when you have no penis.

:\

 

[blahness]

wat

No really, is gender only determined by the sum of the anatomical parts? Or should we only look at the genetic makeup? Should both be considered when making this decision? How much of a role in gender determination does testosterone and estrogen have? I have my own thoughts on this matter but wanted to throw these questions out for those so quick to judge.

 

[The Faceless Master]

oh wow.

 

[Kitschkraft]

Geneder may be physically binary, but even that's a grey area as this lady proves. Mentally or psychologically? That's hardly binary at all.

Which is why we really should be describing "sex" and not "gender" (Which, academically, has been considered separate from biology for some time now from what I understand).

Her gender is definitely female, she believes she is a female, was raised as such, and I'm guessing that she adheres to traditional female "gender roles".

Maybe I just read one too many feminist articles.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

She should be allowed to keep the medals amd compete as a woman IMO.

Ridiculous. Ignoring the other issues at work in this thread, I would think that the one thing we should agree on is that it's not fair for the other contestants that he/she was allowed to compete against them. Sports is divided by sex for a reason. He/she had the athletic advantages of a male body.

The medal should be revoked.

 

[Kitschkraft]

That's an interesting discussion. Large feet (Ian Thorpe) or an oddly shaped body (Phelps) can be a performance enhancing attribute, but is commonly allowed. Testosterone is a performance enhancing hormone produced by the body, but excessive levels, even if naturally produced, are grounds for disqualification. It's not clear cut. Where do you draw the line? Sure, she hasn't been demolishing world records, but Caster has been competing with three times the amount of a performance enhancing hormone in her body than her competitors. Thankfully, I don't have to draw that line.

This is why I find this whole thing so very intriguing.

I wonder how many female athletes, without all the weird chromosome stuff, still have higher levels of testosterone.

Hell, how many male athletes have had obscure amounts?

I wonder if this would have even happened had her jawline just been a little less sculpted.

 

[Chumly]

Ridiculous. Ignoring the other issues at work in this thread, I would think that the one thing we should agree on is that it's not fair for the other contestants that he/she was allowed to compete against them. Sports is divided by sex for a reason. He/she had the athletic advantages of a male body.

The medal should be revoked.

Yup

Female sports are regulated to females for a reason (men have a significant advantage). Its unfortunate for people like caster but she has a "man" body which makes it completely unfair.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

How the hell does it take weeks to test her gender?

Shoulda just done the patented Goku crotch grab

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Oh, I know this! A miserable little pile of secrets!

(Sorry.)

Enough talk.

Have at you!

 

[BlackSalad]

Was Michael Phelps cheating with his disproportionately large upper body? It's an unfair advantage and everyone knew about it.

When half of the elite athletes in swimming have this advantage, it might become a discussion. Male = athletic advantage, female = disadvantage.

I bet phelps body type is more rare than a 'woman' having balls

 

[Zaptruder]

The whole conflating the testes producing gonads thing with unusual body shape that increases hydrodynamic performance is pretty ludicrous. If you're going to go on that angle, are you going to seperate black people from white people? White people from asians? Because while the differences are small in day to day life, at the elite level of competition, the genetic racial differences clearly exist.

 

[BloodySinner]

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Those are ugly women, not manly women.

 

[Bleepey]

Ridiculous. Ignoring the other issues at work in this thread, I would think that the one thing we should agree on is that it's not fair for the other contestants that he/she was allowed to compete against them. Sports is divided by sex for a reason. He/she had the athletic advantages of a male body.

The medal should be revoked.

But she was raised as a female, identifies as female, this is not the case of a tranny competing, it's someone who had every reason to think they were female and were raised in such a way. Sure some might say she has an unfair advantage, but i believe because she was born, raised and identifies as such she should keep and continue to be allowed to compete.

 

[maharg]

It's worth noting that her time in the race in question wasn't even that great. She's certainly not setting any records, and if she were competing in the male side of things it'd be a bad time if anything. If she has an unfair advantage, I'm not sure it showed.

 

[iamblades]

But she was raised as a female, identifies as female, this is not the case of a tranny competing, it's someone who had every reason to think they were female and were raised in such a way. Sure some might say she has an unfair advantage, but i believe because she was born, raised and identifies as such she should keep and continue to be allowed to compete.

Bullshit.

That's like saying if some athlete's parents raised them on an IV drip of Dianabol they should still be allowed to complete with clean athletes because it's just how they were raised.

(s)he is a male, and so can't compete against females no matter how he was raised, and especially not how he identifies himself.

It's an unfair competitive advantage, and if the rules are set up to keep the playing field level, you have to keep people like this from competing against the females. In an ideal world there would be a place where people in this situation could compete against others on an even playing field, but because of the rarity of the condition, it isn't feasible.

To allow otherwise would basically end most women's sports, because there is no way real females could compete against transgenders or hermaphrodites at the highest level.

Edit: Of course I think high level athletics are soon to be extinct in the current form anyway. Once we get into gene doping and cybernetics and even more advance performance enhancing drugs, there will be no such thing as fair competition, just who has the better tech. So lets see some super roided up genetically modified women competing against the men. :lol :lol

 

[Night_Trekker]

How the hell does it take weeks to test her gender?

Shoulda just done the patented Goku crotch grab

I knew I saved this gif for a reason!

 

[BlackSalad]

It's worth noting that her time in the race in question wasn't even that great. She's certainly not setting any records, and if she were competing in the male side of things it'd be a bad time if anything. If she has an unfair advantage, I'm not sure it showed.

She greatly improved over last year’s world championships, which she ran a very fast time compared to the competition. The track and field era lately has been demolished into speculation because of drugs and whatnot (whole nother thread) but let’s just say the times of our women Olympic qualifiers in the USA of 2004 increased huge compared to 2008...

Regardless, the question is whether the un-dropped ornaments that she has actually has, had an effect on her performance, and the only answer I can see is that it certainly did not hurt her performance.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Unfortunately the South Africans are threatening to take the IAAF to the courts with the accusation of racial discrimination. Fucking pathetic and yet oh so predictable.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

So.... long story short: Is she a man?

 

[Meus Renaissance]

What is androgen insensitivity syndrome?

Androgen insensitivity syndrome is a condition that affects sexual development before birth and during puberty. People with this condition are genetically male, with one X chromosome and one Y chromosome in each cell. Because their bodies are unable to respond to certain male sex hormones (called androgens), they may have mostly female sex characteristics or signs of both male and female sexual development.

Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome occurs when the body cannot use androgens at all. People with this form of the condition have the external sex characteristics of females, but do not have a uterus and therefore do not menstruate and are unable to conceive a child (infertile). They are typically raised as females and have a female gender identity. Affected individuals have male internal sex organs (testes) that are undescended, which means they are abnormally located in the pelvis or abdomen. Undescended testes can become cancerous later in life if they are not surgically removed. People with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome also have sparse or absent hair in the pubic area and under the arms.

The partial and mild forms of androgen insensitivity syndrome result when the body's tissues are partially sensitive to the effects of androgens. People with partial androgen insensitivity (also called Reifenstein syndrome) can have normal female sex characteristics, both male and female sex characteristics, or normal male sex characteristics. They may be raised as males or as females, and may have a male or a female gender identity. People with mild androgen insensitivity are born with male sex characteristics, but are often infertile and tend to experience breast enlargement at puberty

http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition=androgeninsensitivitysyndrome

 

[NetMapel]

I don't know what the chromosome makeup of a hermaphrodite is like. However, if it is a XX-make up or a variation of XX-make up, then she's a female by genetic, wouldn't you say ?

 

[WickedAngel]

And on that same note, what is a man?

It's somewhat telling that I heard the response to that question in the voice that originally said it.

 

[Slayer-33]

shes so cute

 

[Meus Renaissance]

I wonder what his hormonal balance is like because I'm pretty sure Caster would be ahead on the testosterone levels :lol Damn, I wouldn't even want to get tested. I don't know how I could handle being told just how much of a man/woman I was in terms of hormones. I am all man, I tells you. All man :lol

 

[G_Berry]

:lol

 

[Zaptruder]

I wonder what his hormonal balance is like because I'm pretty sure Caster would be ahead on the testosterone levels :lol Damn, I wouldn't even want to get tested. I don't know how I could handle being told just how much of a man/woman I was in terms of hormones. I am all man, I tells you. All man :lol

I've seen pictures of you. I'm sure we could get you to look prettier than Caster in a dress and a wig.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

I've seen pictures of you. I'm sure we could get you to look prettier than Caster in a dress and a wig.

Incidentally a woman did once ask me if I was a girl. But she was very old and had bad eye sight.

 

[theignoramus]

I think the South African olympic committee or government needs to take some fucking responsibility for this. You cant tell me they didnt have the medical expertise to be able to determine this. Its obvious with one look at the girl that you know its going to raise questions so why didnt they have her tested so she wasnt embarrassed on a world level?

No doubt. What kind of ineptitude resulted in the South African's having their star athlete internationally humiliated?
Instead of screaming about racial discrimination, they should be conducting an internal investigation as to how this happened.
That's what would happen in any fucking modern country anyways...some accountability.

 

[lastendconductor]

Those are ugly women, not manly women.

Don't hate on Hillary Swank you motherfucker.

 

[Pein]

Don't hate on Hillary Swank you motherfucker.

I agree, Hillary is hot

 

[Bisnic]

I knew I saved this gif for a reason!

Gotta love anime where a boy still look like a girl even without a wig.

 

[mario ate my burger]

shes so cute

 

[Gummifaust]

 

[Dennis]

Hillary Swank is not mannish, just fit. Don't hate.

 

[CAVE343]

I knew I saved this gif for a reason!

So wrong and the same time soo funny :lol

 

[Deleted member 1235]

This reaaaalllly sucks for her. quite badly. Imagine a massive career starting up getting actual money where you might otherwise be dirt poor and then 'surprise, you're actually kind of a dude'

devastating.

Wouldn't it be NUTS if humans were undergoing some mad kind of evolution and this was the beginning of it :lol Soon we'll all be intersexed and can just make babies with ourselves if needed. Would be easier, then we woudln't need to get off the internet at all.

 

[Phobophile]

I don't know what the chromosome makeup of a hermaphrodite is like. However, if it is a XX-make up or a variation of XX-make up, then she's a female by genetic, wouldn't you say ?

Except that "variation" could involve XXY. At that point, you could say he's a man with a redundant X chromosome or she's a woman with an unnecessary Y. Hence the hermaphroditism.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

A lot of peoples' sexual politics are getting in the way of their common sense here in this thread. Not surprising, but a shame.

This:

Gender is overwhelmingly binary. A tiny fraction of the population have abnormal foetal developmental giving them intermediate or mixed characteristics. Saying gender is not binary because a very small number of people have trouble identifying with a specific gender doesn't make much sense.

...should have never been seen as a controversial statement. It's basic science.

Everyone needs to take a deep breath.

That's the macro issue. The micro issue though is still a great concern. I hope this person, in whatever way this person chooses to live from this point on now that the truth is known, is treated with kindness and respect. We're not sure what this person knew or suspected or thought leading up to this point, but I still think this person is not a cheater. This person didn't choose to be born this way. Yet this person's athletic career is now over, the most intimate details of this person's condition have been laid bare to the whole world. And on top of it, according to the Telegraph piece, this person finds out the condition presents "grave health risks."

This person is going to need a lot of support, and I'm really concerned that South Africa may not be the best place to live if you need that kind of support.

 

[AVclub]

After catching up with the last couple of pages of this thread, I'd like to apologize. My ignorance on this subject evoked a response which, after a bit of reading, doesn't make much sense. So thanks to those of you who took the time to point out where I was wrong. I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my misguided point of view.

 

[mckmas8808]

A lot of peoples' sexual politics are getting in the way of their common sense here in this thread. Not surprising, but a shame.

I agree with this.

 

[StuBurns]

This thread is incomplete without the Tokio Hotel guy:

Looks like Bjork.

 

[DarkJediKnight]

But she was raised as a female, identifies as female, this is not the case of a tranny competing, it's someone who had every reason to think they were female and were raised in such a way. Sure some might say she has an unfair advantage, but i believe because she was born, raised and identifies as such she should keep and continue to be allowed to compete.

Judging by the older pics, I have serious doubt that he/she was raised as a girl or identified as a girl. Look at the clothing.