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Sovereign Citizen drops hot ether in legendary legal brief .

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G

GKSilKamina

Member
Don't worry, I take it all as a compliment, because I am well aware that the court has not spoken to me because it cannot defeat my legal arguments - so it runs and cowers like a panic-stricken hoe that has stolen money from her pimp. Just for the record: you are a hoe. This court is a hoe. And I will backhand you both, should you continue to waste my time.
Click to expand...

Absolutely fantastic.
 
S

Snakes On A Dirigible

Member
Ahasverus said:
Can you explain to me like I'm 12 what this Sovereign Citizen stuff is about? Because I'm in tears.
Click to expand...

From what I've gathered, it's a group of people who don't recognize the US Federal government and reject all forms of Federal taxes. They seem to think that their own personal interpretation of the law (whatever that may be) is the only legitimate one.

Seems to have some conspiratorial roots as well, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/ideology/sovereign-citizens-movement
 
J

Joey Fox

Self-Actualized Member
That podcast is an hour and 40 minutes. Any help on when the 9 minute section is doing the dramatic reading?

The beginning of the podcast did not interest me, for those who say it's great.
 
S

...Scatter...

Banned
She learned history and law in an hour. Wrap it up folks. Clearly we're out of our element. We're little gelatins and she's The Fist Of The North Star.

(though honestly sometimes I do think our judicial system is bullshit)
 
S

Scrooged

Totally wronger about Nintendo's business decisions.
Snakes On A Dirigible said:
From what I've gathered, it's a group of people who don't recognize the US Federal government and reject all forms of Federal taxes. They seem to think that their own personal interpretation of the law (whatever that may be) is the only legitimate one.

Seems to have some conspiratorial roots as well, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/ideology/sovereign-citizens-movement
Click to expand...

According to that wiki page Kent Hovind is a Sovereign Citizen. Oh wow. And was just recently convicted of criminal contempt. He just continues to be hilarious.
 
P

Permanently A

Junior Member
Don’t you know that your FBI and CIA have been trying to recruit me since grade school? Lol. But they’re unscrupulous losers like you, so it won’t be happening.
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Is this the new Navy Seals copypasta?
 
N

Nivash

Member
Snakes On A Dirigible said:
From what I've gathered, it's a group of people who don't recognize the US Federal government and reject all forms of Federal taxes. They seem to think that their own personal interpretation of the law (whatever that may be) is the only legitimate one.

Seems to have some conspiratorial roots as well, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/ideology/sovereign-citizens-movement
Click to expand...

Yeah, there's no real easy way to explain it that truly covers all of the craziness.

The way I like to think about it is like this: it's belief in legal magic. Putting aside the rationalizations,(such as the "strawman", naval court and the Magna Carta) a lot of it hovers around the notion that if you phrase things just the right way both in your written statement and while present in court, the entire system breaks down and essentially allows you to do whatever you want.

There's a ton of rituals and basically legal spells involved which is why I think it resembles magic. This includes things like renaming themselves and then refusing to answer when addressed with their legal names in an attempt at literally separating the legal and physical personas, "counter-suing" the courts and then demanding outrageous amounts in "damages" when they don't respond and - OK, I'll touch on the naval thing - insisting that if the court has a flag with a golden fringe (which is common because hey, it looks nice) that means that the court is actually an admiralty court which doesn't have jurisdiction on land.

It has tons of subgroups (or sects might be a better word) which don't agree with each other. What unites them s this magical thinking and a complete obsession with it, to the degree that we see self-destructive delusions like with this woman. Oh, and a complete inability to admit that they're wrong. Hit them with a thousand examples of why their faith isn't working and they'll just respond with a thousand examples of minute things these people supposedly did wrong.

EDIT: And I do mean delusions. They don't just talk the talk, they walk the walk even if it means ending up physically harmed. Like this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfVbiefMdNU

They aren't harmless themselves either. Members have been involved with numerous murders of police officers and other civil servants who have the bad fortune of getting in their way. The FBI treats them as borderline, if not actual, domestic terrorists.
 
C

Cat Party

Member
Nivash said:
Yeah, there's no real easy way to explain it that truly covers all of the craziness.

The way I like to think about it is like this: it's belief in legal magic.
Click to expand...

Actually, you just found an easy way to explain it.

As funny as their antics can be, these people are in fact quite terrifying and dangerous. The judges, attorneys, and law enforcement personnel who deal with them have to endure a lot of harassment and veiled (or unveiled) death threats. And sometimes they act on those threats.
 
W

WoodWERD

Member
The court takes "judicial notice" of blah, blah, blah....Yep. Whatever. That's right, I had a cocked and fully loaded AK-47 assault rifle, as well as a .45 caliber pistol. What's your point?
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Brilliant. I feel for the poor kid.


Nivash said:
Yeah, there's no real easy way to explain it that truly covers all of the craziness.

The way I like to think about it is like this: it's belief in legal magic. Putting aside the rationalizations,(such as the "strawman", naval court and the Magna Carta) a lot of it hovers around the notion that if you phrase things just the right way both in your written statement and while present in court, the entire system breaks down and essentially allows you to do whatever you want.
Click to expand...

Yeah, we used to get some great letters from people like this trying to either rewrite the terms of their mortgage or simply claim it was unenforceable since they weren't subject to state/fed law like the rest of us sheep.
 
S

Slayven

Member
Nivash said:
Yeah, there's no real easy way to explain it that truly covers all of the craziness.

The way I like to think about it is like this: it's belief in legal magic. Putting aside the rationalizations,(such as the "strawman", naval court and the Magna Carta) a lot of it hovers around the notion that if you phrase things just the right way both in your written statement and while present in court, the entire system breaks down and essentially allows you to do whatever you want.

There's a ton of rituals and basically legal spells involved which is why I think it resembles magic. This includes things like renaming themselves and then refusing to answer when addressed with their legal names in an attempt at literally separating the legal and physical personas, "counter-suing" the courts and then demanding outrageous amounts in "damages" when they don't respond and - OK, I'll touch on the naval thing - insisting that if the court has a flag with a golden fringe (which is common because hey, it looks nice) that means that the court is actually an admiralty court which doesn't have jurisdiction on land.

It has tons of subgroups (or sects might be a better word) which don't agree with each other. What unites them s this magical thinking and a complete obsession with it, to the degree that we see self-destructive delusions like with this woman. Oh, and a complete inability to admit that they're wrong. Hit them with a thousand examples of why their faith isn't working and they'll just respond with a thousand examples of minute things these people supposedly did wrong.

EDIT: And I do mean delusions. They don't just talk the talk, they walk the walk even if it means ending up physically harmed. Like this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfVbiefMdNU

They aren't harmless themselves either. Members have been involved with numerous murders of police officers and other civil servants who have the bad fortune of getting in their way. The FBI treats them as borderline, if not actual, domestic terrorists.
Click to expand...

That is the best explanation for sovereign citizens and pretty much every fringe fuck the government groupI ever seen.
 
J

Javaman

Member
Suikoguy said:
That judge could order her arrest based on death threats being made.



Honestly, they are a far bigger threat then Terrorism, in the USA anyway.
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Yep. Sadly the Bundy cattle standoff seems to have empowered them. It's good that it didn't turn into an actual gun battle, but the sovereign citizens consider the standoff a big win.
 
A

Ayato Kanzaki

Member
Can someone please post the text of the brief to another source, like pastebin or equivalent? I can't access the source linked (or the podcast), maybe because of region locking, and it seems I'm missing something great.
 
MisterFalcon

MisterFalcon

Member
Nivash said:
Yeah, there's no real easy way to explain it that truly covers all of the craziness.

The way I like to think about it is like this: it's belief in legal magic. Putting aside the rationalizations,(such as the "strawman", naval court and the Magna Carta) a lot of it hovers around the notion that if you phrase things just the right way both in your written statement and while present in court, the entire system breaks down and essentially allows you to do whatever you want.

There's a ton of rituals and basically legal spells involved which is why I think it resembles magic. This includes things like renaming themselves and then refusing to answer when addressed with their legal names in an attempt at literally separating the legal and physical personas, "counter-suing" the courts and then demanding outrageous amounts in "damages" when they don't respond and - OK, I'll touch on the naval thing - insisting that if the court has a flag with a golden fringe (which is common because hey, it looks nice) that means that the court is actually an admiralty court which doesn't have jurisdiction on land.

It has tons of subgroups (or sects might be a better word) which don't agree with each other. What unites them s this magical thinking and a complete obsession with it, to the degree that we see self-destructive delusions like with this woman. Oh, and a complete inability to admit that they're wrong. Hit them with a thousand examples of why their faith isn't working and they'll just respond with a thousand examples of minute things these people supposedly did wrong.
Click to expand...

On this site is a link to a fantastic overview of what is called Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Arguments. It's a tempting thing to believe if you are in deep debt that with some amazing trick (sold to you for a small price of course) all your troubles are solved.

http://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.html

"The JONES, WILLIAM A. this bill was sent to is not me, I am William A. Jones, an entirely different legal person."
"I am subject to tribal law only even though I'm not in a tribe or live on tribal land"
"All laws since William the Conqueror landed in 1066 are invalid"
 
R

Random Painted HIghway

Member
You do not mess around with these people, some are just weirdos but others are extremely dangerous and it is not easy to distinguish between the two. When I was a prosecutor I prosecuted a husband wife team of sovereign citizens on a large theft case. They are in prison now, were given twenty years each after a trial. I can't go into the details of the case but I was hammered with typed and hand written pro se motions citing the uniform commercial code among other things, it was bizarre. Letters to Obama, holder, the irs, etc. good times. They accused me and the court of ordering their kidnapping-things got real when that letter hit. Back a few years ago these types would file property liens on everybody, thankfully the rules on such things have tightened up on that end of things. I've prosecuted a lot of folks on serious charges and defended a lot of folks on serious charges, but these two are the only ones that I actually thought would be crazy enough to come after me personally. The motions and briefs are hilarious to read from a distance, I kept them in my office for the occasional chuckle.
 
S

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Ahasverus said:
Can you explain to me like I'm 12 what this Sovereign Citizen stuff is about? Because I'm in tears.
Click to expand...

Remember when you were 5 and you told your mom that you didn't have to eat your spinach because you were the Emperor of Jabrovia and she could get bent?

Moral of the tale: You ate your fuckin' spinach and you got your ass paddled too.



It's literally that, but the government is your mom.
 
N

Nivash

Member
QuicheFontaine said:
For reals?
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Sure. It's $200 for each Explosive Destruct Device (that's one for the launcher and one for each round) in addition to registration and an "extensive" background check. Hell, you could probably own an Abrams legally provided you make it street legal (or only drive it on your own land), register the main gun as an EDD and remove the machine-guns (would actually be more difficult to register than the tank itself).

Almost anything fire-arms related is legal if you manage to jump through the hoops the right way.

EDIT: The sauce:http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_II_weapons
 
Y

yasu151

Member
Nivash said:
Yeah, there's no real easy way to explain it that truly covers all of the craziness.

The way I like to think about it is like this: it's belief in legal magic. Putting aside the rationalizations,(such as the "strawman", naval court and the Magna Carta) a lot of it hovers around the notion that if you phrase things just the right way both in your written statement and while present in court, the entire system breaks down and essentially allows you to do whatever you want.

There's a ton of rituals and basically legal spells involved which is why I think it resembles magic. This includes things like renaming themselves and then refusing to answer when addressed with their legal names in an attempt at literally separating the legal and physical personas, "counter-suing" the courts and then demanding outrageous amounts in "damages" when they don't respond and - OK, I'll touch on the naval thing - insisting that if the court has a flag with a golden fringe (which is common because hey, it looks nice) that means that the court is actually an admiralty court which doesn't have jurisdiction on land.

It has tons of subgroups (or sects might be a better word) which don't agree with each other. What unites them s this magical thinking and a complete obsession with it, to the degree that we see self-destructive delusions like with this woman. Oh, and a complete inability to admit that they're wrong. Hit them with a thousand examples of why their faith isn't working and they'll just respond with a thousand examples of minute things these people supposedly did wrong.
Click to expand...

I have a long-time friend who's never getting out of prison. A group of us (3-4 of his closer friends) visit him once every 6 months or so, but it's getting hard. I didn't know the term for it, but you pretty much touched on a lot of what my friend has been spouting. I don't feel it my place to tell him he's wrong, because his life is hard enough resulting from his crimes, and he is paying his dues. However, from him strongly demanding we all pay our mortgages with gold to trying to convince us he was wrongfully convicted because the 'admiralty' court isn't a real court, it sounds really off-base. And, as you mentioned, he never admits he was wrong when we confront him with previous inconsistencies based on his beliefs; we've stopped trying such.
 
TheRedSnifit

TheRedSnifit

Member
QuicheFontaine said:
For reals?
Click to expand...

Yes, it's perfectly legal in all but a few states. To get one you just need to fill out some paperwork, pay the ATF a $200 tax, wait a few months for a comprehensive background check and then register the weapon with the federal government. I could pay $2500 and have an RPG launcher with a missile in four months, though you have to repeat this process for each individual missile.
 
A

Ally of Justice

Member
Slayven said:
“...when I told you I AM Justice—I meant it. It took me about 1 month to study the history of the world and to learn the history and inner workings [of] American jurisprudence, literally. I was born to do this here.
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I see you're an Ally of Justice. I'm an Ally of Justice myself.

She's amazing, this Floridian-American...
 
A

Ahasverus

Member
Stinkles said:
Remember when you were 5 and you told your mom that you didn't have to eat your spinach because you were the Emperor of Jabrovia and she could get bent?

Moral of the tale: You ate your fuckin' spinach and you got your ass paddled too.

It's literally that, but the government is your mom.
Click to expand...
lol this should be in a textbook, thanks!
 
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