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[notaskwid]

WTF? SD cards are like $12 for 32GB retail price. When you consider that Nintendo would be buying in bulk at wholesale prices, I'd be surprised if it comes out to more than a couple dollars more than a BD-ROM disc.

A couple dollars times 1 million copies printed is A LOT of money.

 

[Calm Mind]

GAF until late September:

FTFY

 

[Josue]

When Iwata first talked about the NX, did he specifically say that the multiple devices included a handheld and a home console?

 

[orioto]

The Wii U version will use a disc. That's what people are assuming the disc means.

The carts are making people think that's what the NX will use, and given Nintendo's statements have people thinking that (if it has handheld and console versions) both would use the same format - cartridges.

But it could use a different format for each.

I see the logic here but to me it only confirms there is a portable version. Which is huge to me honestly. Having a game like that on a portable is like skipping 2 gens in term of gaming on the go..

For the cart used in both consoles i'm not sure honestly. I assume the portable versions of some games could need to have difefrent assets, smaller textures for size purpose maybe ? Maybe they would need two versions of the games, even if they are the same. But who knows.

 

[Kouriozan]

Cartridges would in fact solve the problem of games playable on both the home console and handheld, I'm fine with this.

 

[DarkTom]

Carts are awesome, I probably won't buy NX anytime soon but it would be a good first step to tempt me.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

But that just makes a good point for cards and shows how inefficient discs are now. Read speeds aren't fast enough, and faster read speeds for discs creates more noise and heat, so a large part of the game is moved to the HDD so the HDD can do the grunt work.

What are the read speeds of modern cartridges like?

 

[Branduil]

A couple dollars times 1 million copies printed is A LOT of money.

They are already going to have to print cartridges... the NX handheld isn't going to use discs. If it's the same game, it actually saves them money to only print one SKU.

 

[encephalon]

This fantasy makes no sense to me. It often brings up less loading. The 3DS and Vita games I've played are no stranger to loading times. Sometimes lengthy ones. Unless you're suggesting it's an actual cartridge, not the SD cards that get brought up in these threads.

I'm fine with this. In fact, I hope it's true. All my cart-based games have lasted much longer than my disc-based ones. Most of my PS1 library, for example, is scratched to hell and doesn't work anymore but my SNES library is still alive and kicking.

In Japan, people take care of games so PS1 games still work. It's the SFC games that don't tend to read, in my experience. I've had to clean almost every single one I've bought in order to get it to work, and even then, it's takes multiple resets. That being said, I haven't played PS1 games on an old PS1.

But this is 2016. So maybe in 20 years, 3DS cards will read just fine, we won't have to worry about batteries, and there's no reason anyone's discs should be scratched up. It's bizarre that the latter is brought up at all as a bonus for using cartridges in the modern era.

 

[//DEVIL//]

WTF? SD cards are like $12 for 32GB retail price. When you consider that Nintendo would be buying in bulk at wholesale prices, I'd be surprised if it comes out to more than a couple dollars more than a BD-ROM disc.

yeah ? i didnt know a 32 is this cheap lol so um. what about the read and write speed compared to 4x blue ray ?

 

[ArchedThunder]

I see the logic here but to me it only confirms there is a portable version. Which is huge to me honestly. Having a game like that on a portable is like skipping 2 gens in term of gaming on the go..

For the cart used in both consoles i'm not sure honestly. I assume the portable versions of some games could need to have difefrent assets, smaller textures for size purpose maybe ? Maybe they would need two versions of the games, even if they are the same. But who knows.

The whole assumption for the longest time has been that NX devices will share their games, so the best way for the handheld and console to share games would be for then to use the same media.

 

[T-0800]

A couple dollars times 1 million copies printed is A LOT of money.

Third party games won't sell that much.

 

[digoutyoursoul]

Love cartridges but I would be surprised if they went back to them, I don't think third parties would be keen

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

A couple dollars times 1 million copies printed is A LOT of money.

They'd also save a large amount on shipping and packaging over optical. And then there's making one SKU instead of two if nx home/portable are truly compatible as has been rumoured.

Overall I think it would be slightly more expensive, but nowhere close to the cartridges of the past. I'd hope they make the boxes smaller then the 3DS ones.

 

[orioto]

The whole assumption for the longest time has been that NX devices will share their games, so the best way for the handheld and console to share games would be for then to use the same media.

Yeah for a game like Zelda who has WIiU assets it's easy.

But, now let's imagine the home console is more powerful, next gen level (let's hope). Then you have your game that has to run on a WiiU level of hardware and on a PS4/XBO level of hardware, with potentially different models, textures... different assets.

Wouldn't it be a problem to have both version of everything on the same cart ? Maybe not, maybe they can use a lod system i don't know. PC and android games must be doing that.

 

[geordiemp]

It would certainly make sense from a Nintendo point of view.

Lower power consumption, quiet, fewer moving parts, much smaller form factor, less internal storage space( as games will likely read straight from the card as opposed to being installed). Lower shipping costs, fewer materials needed, less packaging, takes up less shelf space in stores and in warehouses. Cheaper hardware for consumers.

The big risk will be in regards to bigger games which need bigger cards...as they'll either be more costly or need a fair bit of compression/lower quality assets to fit.

Do people not realise that optical drives are only used once to install the game to hard drive. All this talk of quiet and moving parts does not apply when playing games.

Many third party games are pressed on disk and have huge day 1 patches, 15 GB is not unheard of. For many games half of the data is got after you have installed the optical disk, not counting all the DLC and stuff. The amount of Destiny 50 GB updates I have had is not even funny. So Nintendo would need a large Hard drive anyway if they are serious about third party.

Anyway, I think there is a market for a really powerful portable.....

 

[Alienous]

I see the logic here but to me it only confirms there is a portable version. Which is huge to me honestly. Having a game like that on a portable is like skipping 2 gens in term of gaming on the go..

For the cart used in both consoles i'm not sure honestly. I assume the portable versions of some games could need to have difefrent assets, smaller textures for size purpose maybe ? Maybe they would need two versions of the games, even if they are the same. But who knows.

It's certainly possible. I'm inclined to thinking they'll share the actual media, given that it would be a sellable gimmick, and that New 3DS games are a foray into the territory of the same software playing differently on different hardware.

 

[Interceptor]

When Iwata first talked about the NX, did he specifically say that the multiple devices included a handheld and a home console?

It´s heavily implied for example in those quotes:

Last year, an unprecedented thing in the history of the Japanese video game market happened: Five titles for Nintendo 3DS sold more than two million copies each in the latter six-month period of 2014. As this record-breaking incident attests, video game software sales have been progressing smoothly on dedicated video game hardware even after smart devices have become widespread in this country.
...
Of course, the challenge of asking our consumers to purchase dedicated video game hardware has become harder now that smart devices have widely spread. However, we recognize that our business model of producing both video game hardware and software is effective even today, and we do not share this pessimistic view of the future for dedicated video game systems.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/corporate/release/en/2015/150317/03.html

Last year we also started a project to integrate the architecture for our future platforms. What we mean by integrating platforms is not integrating handhelds devices and home consoles to make only one machine. What we are aiming at is to integrate the architecture to form a common basis for software development so that we can make software assets more transferrable, and operating systems and their build-in applications more portable, regardless of form factor or performance of each platform. They will also work to avoid software lineup shortages or software development delays which tend to happen just after the launch of new hardware.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/130131/05.html

Still, I am not sure if the form factor (the size and configuration of the hardware) will be integrated. In contrast, the number of form factors might increase. Currently, we can only provide two form factors because if we had three or four different architectures, we would face serious shortages of software on every platform.

To cite a specific case, Apple is able to release smart devices with various form factors one after another because there is one way of programming adopted by all platforms. Apple has a common platform called iOS. Another example is Android. Though there are various models, Android does not face software shortages because there is one common way of programming on the Android platform that works with various models. The point is, Nintendo platforms should be like those two examples.

Whether we will ultimately need just one device will be determined by what consumers demand in the future, and that is not something we know at the moment. However, we are hoping to change and correct the situation in which we develop games for different platforms individually and sometimes disappoint consumers with game shortages as we attempt to move from one platform to another, and we believe that we will be able to deliver tangible results in the future.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/140130qa/02.html

 

[Plum]

Yeah for a game like Zelda who has WIiU assets it's easy.

But, now let's imagine the home console is more powerful, next gen level (let's hope). Then you have your game that has to run on a WiiU level of hardware and on a PS4/XBO level of hardware, with potentially different models, textures... different assets.

Wouldn't it be a problem to have both version of everything on the same cart ? Maybe not, maybe they can use a lod system i don't know. PC and android games must be doing that.

For PC games you don't have "High detail textures" and "Low detail textures" stored as seperate entities in the game files, you have the former and if the user picks lower detail textures they get scaled down to a lower resolution. It's how something like Doom 3 can look like this despite the developers never intending it to look that way even at the default lowest settings.

It wouldn't be a problem at all. Developers would just have to tell the game to use lower settings when it recognizes it's running on the NX Handheld.

 

[nightside]

Love cartridges but I would be surprised if they went back to them, I don't think third parties would be keen

Why not? The problem with cartridges was that Nintendo demanded third parties to buy a shitload of cartridges for a shitload of money and pretended ridiculously high royalties. I don't see Nintendo having the same policy this time around

 

[Refreshment.01]

It wouldn't be cartridges like the NES, SNES, & N64, but rather game cards like the DS & 3DS (since Macronix is supposedly the manufacturer for the NX cartridges, the same guys who did the DS & 3DS cartridges).

• 1st- Having a cartridge-based platform allows for the same physical copy to be used across the NX Console & NX Handheld, thus not forcing the platform as a whole to be digital-only to get the point of a shared library across (if that's the route Nintendo's going, which may end up being the case). This would also benefit Nintendo in the long-run because they only have to print one copy of a game rather than two, thus saving money overall.
• 2nd- Using cartridges instead of discs also allows for Nintendo to avoid having to install game assets to the device's hard drive, which can help in saving space for the user. Nintendo has bypassed the need for installations for the most part with the Wii U (Xenoblade X aside), so Nintendo may want to continue this trend. Also by virtue of the faster transfer speeds, load times would be cut down by a considerable degree. Not to mention that you can put your save data on the cartridge itself.
• 3rd- The use of cartridges for the NX Platform also cuts down on the number of moving parts, which would be a bigger benefit for the NX Console. Not only would said NX Console be able to last longer without breaking down, but Nintendo can cut costs down by not needing a disc drive. Said saved costs can be either diverted towards improving the NX Console (Ex: adding a better CPU, GPU, more RAM, etc.) or just lowering the price tag of the NX Console.

This is not nitpicking but i think, we are missing some things here:

The third point, fully agree with that. There are advantages by going with cartridges.

On to the first point. A shared library doesn't need for the different form factors to share the same storage medium. This is how games have worked for decades. Even you point this out yourself by bringing the digital example. SO there's nothing preventing the hyphotetical home console form factor using disks and the handheld, cartridges, for the same exact game.

The second point, doesn't correspond with reality. The main reason is patching and DLC. You will always need to install extra stuff beyond the game's data at it's shipment state. Also the need to install assets depends of the type of game and it's needs. Nintendo managed to avoid that because of this, yet for something more ambituos like Xeno, they infact recommend several installs for the disk version.

 

[orioto]

For PC games you don't have "High detail textures" and "Low detail textures" stored as seperate entities in the game files, you have the former and if the user picks lower detail textures they get scaled down to a lower resolution. It's how something like Doom 3 can look like this despite the developers never intending it to look that way even at the default lowest settings.

It wouldn't be a problem at all. Developers would just have to tell the game to use lower settings when it recognizes it's running on the NX Handheld.

That's not a problem if the cart can be big enough indeed.

Now, if they have something like that. Let's have a reality check here for some. It's not a big mainstream gimmick, as the Wii was. it's nothing, compared to the Wii. So that's not their big thing.

 

[AmyS]

Nintendo NX MX AR VR Cartridge Disc Console Handheld Supplemental Computing Super System.

I can't take these rumors anymore!

 

[McHuj]

Great, I'm all for it.

I imagine even for Nintendo within 5 years digital sales may surpass physical media sales so a cart reader may be cheaper for them in the long term and certainly would help with a tiny form factor.

 

[Gamezone]

As long as it's physical media, hopefully more than 50 GB so developers can ignore huge content downloads as well.

 

[jett]

They are so modern they have to install because their drives are so slow.
On Wii U you can have each game purely digital or as a Disc with no installs.
Modern.

Because the Wii U has PS360-level hardware and its games don't need to fill up as much RAM memory as the PS4 and Xbone do, nor does it have as much memory to begin with.

But that just makes a good point for cards and shows how inefficient discs are now. Read speeds aren't fast enough, and faster read speeds for discs creates more noise and heat, so a large part of the game is moved to the HDD so the HDD can do the grunt work.

The average flash card isn't particularly fast either (more like not fast at all), and I don't see Nintendo going for the super expensive ones if this pans out, for obvious reasons.

Discs will be going away eventually though, but they will not replaced by friggin' game cards, they will be replaced by nothing.

 

[MCN]

Many third party games are pressed on disk and have huge day 1 patches, 15 GB is not unheard of. For many games half of the data is got after you have installed the optical disk, not counting all the DLC and stuff. The amount of Destiny 50 GB updates I have had is not even funny. So Nintendo would need a large Hard drive anyway if they are serious about third party.

So why wouldn't they be able to write those patches directly to the cartridge, overwriting the old game files as needed? Can't do that with optical media, because that isn't writeable. This doesn't need to be an issue with a new cartridge system.

 

[stan423321]

Yeah for a game like Zelda who has WIiU assets it's easy.

But, now let's imagine the home console is more powerful, next gen level (let's hope). Then you have your game that has to run on a WiiU level of hardware and on a PS4/XBO level of hardware, with potentially different models, textures... different assets.

Wouldn't it be a problem to have both version of everything on the same cart ? Maybe not, maybe they can use a lod system i don't know. PC and android games must be doing that.

A lot of newer PC games don't do that anymore and focus on getting higher resolution and framerate, which is what Nintendo could do. Also they could made a texture downsampling chip or something.

Regardless, if the high-end version fit then throwing the low-end version in is mostly trivial. It's not like various forms of NX will use completely different data formats - unless Nintendo engineers went INSANE.

 

[geordiemp]

Why not? The problem with cartridges was that Nintendo demanded third parties to buy a shitload of cartridges for a shitload of money and pretended ridiculously high royalties. I don't see Nintendo having the same policy this time around

So why wouldn't they be able to write those patches directly to the cartridge, overwriting the old game files as needed? Can't do that with optical media, because that isn't writeable. This doesn't need to be an issue with a new cartridge system.

What I read from the Halo dev, not exactly third party but he listed his thoughts in that thread. I am sure he has a good idea of whats involved. It is an interesting view point from a AAA western dev anyway. He expands later in the thread if your interested.

If it's cartridges you can say goodbye to the third party renaissance.

 

[bman94]

I play most of my 360 games from my USB card, and obviously the 3DS already works on cards. This obviously won't happen.

You playing 360 games on a card has nothing to do with 3rd parties having manufacture the cards themselves. The 3DS card isn't containing full AAA releases like Assassin's Creed or Call of Duty. Those games are huge compared to a typical 3DS game meaning more money would be spent manufacturing a card as opposed to a standard Blu-Ray disc. Even Super Smash Bros 4 had to be limited in scope because of the limitations of the 3DS card. Music sounds like crap on there cause they had to compress everything to fit on the card.

 

[McHuj]

So why wouldn't they be able to write those patches directly to the cartridge, overwriting the old game files as needed? Can't do that with optical media, because that isn't writeable. This doesn't need to be an issue with a new cartridge system.

My guess that the carts would be read only and won't just typical sd carts. Going read only may improve read speeds as well and will improve security as well.

 

[Davey Cakes]

Yep, this is what a lot of Nintendo-GAF believes. I'd personally love it.

Same.

Streamlining everything between handheld and console makes so much sense and creates such a possibility of a rich library of games, even just from Nintendo. The mere idea gets me giddy.

I mean, just combine the game libraries of Wii U and 3DS alone and you have something amazing. Imagine if that were the NX?

I'm really hoping that Nintendo, this time, were forward-thinking enough to actually go for it. I'd tip my hat to them.

 

[Mr Swine]

I really hope Nintendo ditches rewritable memory on the cards if both handheld and console use he same media. That would only jack up prices when we already have cheap flash memory like SD cards

 

[Nanashrew]

Because the Wii U has PS360-level hardware and its games don't need to fill up as much RAM memory as the PS4 and Xbone do, nor does it have as much memory to begin with.



The average flash card isn't particularly fast either (more like not fast at all), and I don't see Nintendo going for the super expensive ones if this pans out, for obvious reasons.

Discs will be going away eventually though, but they will not replaced by friggin' game cards, they will be replaced by nothing.

The day physical dies will be an awful one that I dunno if I'll be able to continue. But you can still buy CDs/vinyl for music, Blu-Ray/DVD for movies and shows, so I do doubt it will ever truly go away. They'll just incentivize them more by offering more with it, I'd imagine.

You playing 360 games on a card has nothing to do with 3rd parties having manufacture the cards themselves. The 3DS card isn't containing full AAA releases like Assassin's Creed or Call of Duty. Those games are huge compared to a typical 3DS game meaning more money would be spent manufacturing a card as opposed to a standard Blu-Ray disc. Even Super Smash Bros 4 had to be limited in scope because of the limitations of the 3DS card. Music sounds like crap on there cause they had to compress everything to fit on the card.

Smash had to be limited in scope due to the 3DS in general. Little to do with the card. CPU was even cited as the main problem they could not get the Ice Climbers to work, for example.

 

[Maserati]

>

 

[test_account]

Nintendo will use cartridges if they're going for games being played across several of systems, i'm pretty sure of it. Kinda like Vita and VitaTV plays the same games.

WTF? SD cards are like $12 for 32GB retail price. When you consider that Nintendo would be buying in bulk at wholesale prices, I'd be surprised if it comes out to more than a couple dollars more than a BD-ROM disc.

In contrast, a 50GB BD-R disc are like $1 - $2 at retail. When buying in bulk at wholesale prices, its even cheaper.

They are so modern they have to install because their drives are so slow.
On Wii U you can have each game purely digital or as a Disc with no installs.
Modern.

Do we know if PS4 and Xbox One couldnt run games from disc? Even if it lead to long loading times. Every old disc based system could run games directly from the discs without installing afterall, but some of them had really long loading times because of that. Xenoblade Chronicles X on WiiU offers install packs to cut down the loading times, i guess Zelda might do the same.

But that just makes a good point for cards and shows how inefficient discs are now. Read speeds aren't fast enough, and faster read speeds for discs creates more noise and heat, so a large part of the game is moved to the HDD so the HDD can do the grunt work.

The benefit of discs is still that its a cheap way to distribute much data.

 

[cacildo]

Cartridges are beautiful. They need to come back

 

[Interceptor]

Storing both assets on the card would be no problem, but you dont even have to do that. Once the card is locked to your account you can just download the higher assets on your console... or the entire game

 

[test_account]

Cartridges are beautiful. They need to come back

They never really left. Been available on handhelds since the begining =)

 

[digoutyoursoul]

Cartridges are beautiful. They need to come back

They do, not a fan of discs

 

[Aureon]

I have zero idea what the cost of carts (obviously at mass manufactured level) would be today?

Could a large capacity cart be cost efficient?

Flash memory is around 2-3$ for 32gb. (Wholesale usb keys, SD cards are pricier, but mostly due to patents)
Optical storage (DL BD) is half that, maybe a bit less. But optical storage has other drawbacks, like read speed, having to include an optical reader, which makes the console heavier, bigger and noisier.
Flash memory is also writeable, so you could do on-cartridge patches and saves, possibly enabling a hdd-less version of the console, driving price further down.

if they want 64gb storage, though, that could be harder.

WTF? SD cards are like $12 for 32GB retail price. When you consider that Nintendo would be buying in bulk at wholesale prices, I'd be surprised if it comes out to more than a couple dollars more than a BD-ROM disc.

SD cards have very high royalties and patents. usb keys are half that.

 

[Mexen]

Blowing intensifies

 

[Mr. Pointy]

512GB SD cards are like, $5 on taobao or aliexpress. Totally worth Nintendo switching over.

Spoiler

slash s

 

[Theanine3D]

In Japan, people take care of games so PS1 games still work. It's the SFC games that don't tend to read, in my experience. I've had to clean almost every single one I've bought in order to get it to work, and even then, it's takes multiple resets. That being said, I haven't played PS1 games on an old PS1.

But this is 2016. So maybe in 20 years, 3DS cards will read just fine, we won't have to worry about batteries, and there's no reason anyone's discs should be scratched up. It's bizarre that the latter is brought up at all as a bonus for using cartridges in the modern era.

You must not have any kids.

I was a kid in the PS1's lifespan. Like, 6 years old. At that age, no kid takes care of anything well, especially discs. Today, yes, I obviously take very good care of my stuff, but that's because I'm an adult now. At least with SFC/SNES carts, you can clean them to get them back to normal. Once a disc is scratched, it's dead forever.

Since Nintendo always prioritizes kids as one of their target audiences, it's actually a selling point that the games for the NX not be scratchable/destructible.

 

[ArtHands]

Well it's a hybrid. Of course it'll be cartridges.

Seems only the storage is a hybrid. You can use the same game cart on both NX handheld and NX console.

 

[Hermii]

I guess that sucks for the Wii U, but uh more modern consoles install everything to the HDD, the disc never spins after that, so it's a non-event.

Modernity has nothing to do with it.I guess the iPhone 6s isn't modern because it doesn't have a bunch of noisy fans in it.

This thread lists a bunch of advantages of going with cards, and the cost drawback isn't nearly as significant as it used to be.

 

[BBboy20]

So, is the reason nobody can agree to anything or the lack of hardcore facts is because these new-end cards have not put to use in this fashion yet?

 

[BGBW]

I hope they also go back to calling the home system a control deck.

 

[ArchedThunder]

I hope they also go back to calling the home system a control deck.

The NX Handheld and the NX Control Deck.

 

[Davey Cakes]

With carts, it's not a matter of being old. Nostalgia is one aspect. I mean, we know that the carts of today (that would be used in a game system) and the carts of the N64 days are not quite the same.

I don't really understand the detriment of carts to 3rd parties. I mean, Nintendo making the system more powerful and/or cheaper (without optical media), simplifying the buying process for consumers, and decreasing the necessary shelf space for retailers seem like things that would all benefit 3rd parties in the long run. Increasing access to the NX is key.