professor_t
Member
How does that story in any way corroborate what the OP said?
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Speculation: Kinect is just a über Nielson box. All else follows.
- Thread starter Oppo
- Start date
RumblePuff
Member
If any of the OP is true then I guess the license agreement that comes in the box will be fairly lengthy. I have one friend that's adamant they will eventually charge for movies based on the number of people in the room watching. Not so sure that will work as people get up and leave etc. Targeted ads based on facial expressions means they are watching you though....
Oppo
Member
That's exactly right.
Now as for privacy I could see a system whereby they don't actually associate the demographic patterns sent with the user ID attached. They don't even care about who did what specifically, as how many did which things, in aggregate.
You'd need the ID for targeted ads, that I assume one can opt out of. But there's two different potential data sets for ad usage here.
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Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
So you're cherrypicking metrics you think they can't reliably track and ignoring all of the other things it can and probably will do handwaving it with "haha tinfoil". The point someone else made about disclosure is valid, but they'll either put in an opt-in or get around it by anonymizing the data.
Isn't TV what Nerf was talking about? That was his example (the superbowl), so I assumed that was what he was talking about.
Twin Tails
Member
Won't ever watch TV on it dont have cable, i'll keep kinect unplugged. I BEAT THE SYSTEM.
No, no and no.
If you talk to anyone who has actually worked in the industry, you'd know this was laughable.
Microsoft can't make a nielsen box, because the advertisers, networks, and tv providers don't actually want accurate numbers.
They want the system they have, because it's the one everyone has agreed on and gets paid based on. It's counterintuitive, but it's more about everyone in the chain keeping their job safe, than having an accurate count. They could have far more accurate ratings than they have right now -- ono ne wants them because they're afraid they're the ones who will get screwed.
It will be many, many years before this changes.
There is no special technology required to count the number of online streams a video gets, but nielsen only JUST started testing a way to devise ratings based on online streams, because everyone had to negotiate how they would get paid on it.
Don't take my word for it, find anyone who has worked in TV anywhere and ask them about ratings, and whether or not a new box that exactly monitors people in the room would be accepted by the industry within the next decade.
If you talk to anyone who has actually worked in the industry, you'd know this was laughable.
Microsoft can't make a nielsen box, because the advertisers, networks, and tv providers don't actually want accurate numbers.
They want the system they have, because it's the one everyone has agreed on and gets paid based on. It's counterintuitive, but it's more about everyone in the chain keeping their job safe, than having an accurate count. They could have far more accurate ratings than they have right now -- ono ne wants them because they're afraid they're the ones who will get screwed.
It will be many, many years before this changes.
There is no special technology required to count the number of online streams a video gets, but nielsen only JUST started testing a way to devise ratings based on online streams, because everyone had to negotiate how they would get paid on it.
Don't take my word for it, find anyone who has worked in TV anywhere and ask them about ratings, and whether or not a new box that exactly monitors people in the room would be accepted by the industry within the next decade.
Oppo
Member
If they are doing IR blaster / CEC stuff then it's a pretty simple comparative thing, no?
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Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
Interesting. However the media landscape has many players who are often diametrically opposed to each other. Something a cable provider doesn't want or Nielsen doesn't want isn't necessarily what advertisers don't want. If they want more accurate metrics about their commercials and they feel Nielsen and the networks are obfuscating it or not providing enough in-depth info, they may very much want numbers Microsoft could provide.
Outside of America I know there have been companies working on more novel ways to track tv ratings such as by inserting an inaudible code in the broadcasting and using that to relay info. I think the Medialab of the Belgian public broadcasting service did some experiments with it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_People_Meter
I think it's this technology, but reading that wiki page, it seems to have never caught on.
And denied it at first. Apple, Google, Microsoft, Sony,NSA. They want to know every detail about you. I think consumers should at least have the option of what data was shared and who it was shared with. We live in a day and age where these corporations have shown that they can't be trusted. Don't just point the finger at Microsoft.
And Kinect 2 with its 1080p camera, 60 frames mumbo jumbo, better field of view, able to recognize game controllers and configure buttons, etc. Not seeing how kinect was built with games in mind.
Say you select a show to watch from your DVR, play it for 10 minutes, then rewind a bit, then fast forward, then skip 30 seconds forward twice, then back 10 seconds twice. What if the DVR missed one of the commands but your XBox caught it?
Even if the XBox One is collecting your IR signals from your remote, it is never going to be able to know where you are in the program, reliably, or even what program you are watching.
OP: "Kinect 2 is designed for targeted advertising."
Microsoft: "Kinect 2 is designed [in part] for targeted advertising."
Don't see how hard that is to grasp. How much you want to buy into "Xbox One is a trojan horse to get Kinect 2 [and targeted advertising] into your home" is up to you, but part of the plan has always been targeted advertising.
Which is a logical theory, but logic isn't in play here. It's pure self-preservation / mutually assured destruction, and it will take FOREVER to make a change.
Hulu can get way better demographics than any TV network, but have you noticed that most of the ads on there are pretty shitty, cheap ads?
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Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
I haven't. I'm not American and these services are still IP-locked. I suppose I could get around it, but it's still an annoying barrier of entry.
Oppo
Member
Well your example is a bit of an outlier, but if all those commands pass through the HDMI port or are communicated via Kinect IR blasting then,what's the big deal? It can't really "miss one" if its the origin. It will know which cable box it's attached to (there's a supported list). It has a program guide. So, it would simply count the inputs and deduce. Like a computer.
I don't see what the big deal is about such a feat.Even if they get the occasional bit of noisy data, it will be a drop in the ocean.
Well you're example is a bit of an outlier, but if all those commands pass through the HDMI port or are communicated via Kinect IR blasting then,what's the big deal? It can't really "miss one" if its the origin. It will know which cable box it's attached to (there's a supported list). It has a program guide. So, it would simply count the inputs and deduce. Like a computer.
Even if they get the occasional bit of noisy data, it will be a drop in the ocean.
I disagree. I don't think you will get enough reliable data to make it useful at all.
IR blasting will only work for commands that go through the XBox One and Kinect. In my example, I wasn't using the XBox One to control the DVR, I was using my DVR remote, and I selected a show from the DVR recorded program list (or worse, and on demand show).
DVRs and cable boxes definitely can miss a command. They do all the time for me. Hell, most Cable DVRs are slow enough and variable enough that even if you counted the inputs you wouldn't know when the DVR actually responded relative to the input. How will you keep track of that?
And when people fast forward or rewind, you have to know how fast (frames per second) the DVR rewinds or fastforwards (mine has 4 fast forward modes). Then keep track of how long people hold down buttons too, because that can impact the way a DVR responds.
My DVR also has a setting that will skip forward 30 seconds immediately OR it will fast forward 30 seconds. That's a global DVR setting that will mess things up and the XBox will have no idea how it is set.
Sorry man, I think you are barking up the wrong tree.
My "conspiracy" theory from June:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=63857331&highlight=#post63857331
Nielsen ratings are small fry. Like people have noted, MS can flash any graphics it wants at you and gauge your reactions through Kinect. That's a goddamn gold mine of data.
I'm just waiting for the opt-in program to be announced...
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=63857331&highlight=#post63857331
Nielsen ratings are small fry. Like people have noted, MS can flash any graphics it wants at you and gauge your reactions through Kinect. That's a goddamn gold mine of data.
I'm just waiting for the opt-in program to be announced...
Refreshment.01
Member
To Shape and Nerf:Well your example is a bit of an outlier, but if all those commands pass through the HDMI port or are communicated via Kinect IR blasting then,what's the big deal? It can't really "miss one" if its the origin. It will know which cable box it's attached to (there's a supported list). It has a program guide. So, it would simply count the inputs and deduce. Like a computer.
Even if they get the occasional bit of noisy data, it will be a drop in the ocean.
I havent researched much on how exactly the X1 works. But we need to remember they do use overlays over selected programs and interactions with tablets like "surface". X1 also has an integrated web browser this one is big when added to all the biometric data they can grab. It has voice controls for the channels you surf and a perpetually active microphone.
So the point been, there are lot of ways to data mine users.
Agreed, just not in the way Nerf proposed.
NullPointer
Member
I don't understand.
Everybody wants your data. MS just happens to have the uber device, back end and wherewithal to do so in a way never before seen.
BradleyLove
Member
My biggest concern is that literally millions of dollars is being spent by MS researching how Kinect can improve ads. I don't think they're doing the same to see how Kinect can improves games.
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Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
That just means they'll have instances where they'll collect data, and instances where they'll either collect less or none.
Well, yes. This too is useful data that can be analyzed and people voluntarily give out. Not sure what point you are trying to make. Again, the tin foil hat thing is childish as all hell. We're just discussing the potential commercialization of data. If that's something you don't think occurs and is happening more and more, you're the one with a warped world view.
What part do you not understand? Kinect can be shut off, boom I just thwarted all of MS's evil schemes to collect my data!
NullPointer
Member
OK. And thats no different than any other method of collecting marketing data. If you don't use something, you're not providing info to get tracked.
Thats kindof a given.
Nielsen is a horribly corrupt system that isn't rooted in any kind of reality, yet is the basis of all television business. This is something neither advertisers nor Nielsen are willing to change. I'm not sure how Kinect changes this in the slightest or what in the hell you're suggesting OP
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Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
Nielsen doesn't have a worldwide monopoly on ratings though. They could shop it around in other countries where Nielsen ratings aren't the one metric that is taken seriously. In the same vein US advertisers don't represent advertisers worldwide.
I spent quite a deal of time in business school, I know how much companies want your data. I have just hated how some people here have warped this for there own biased needs. All businesses want your data, some just collect it in different ways. Sony can collect data through the PSeye, Google can collect data through the Google glasses, and amazon can collect it by looking at buyer transactions( even though their policy says that they won't share it).
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Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
Well, yes but that doesn't mean you should lash out at people talking about Microsoft doing it, as if they were delusional paranoid schizophrenics. This thread is speculating about the extent of Microsoft's data collection via Kinect. We don't know the full extent of what will be possible and what will actually be done, but it's clear the technology presents the possibility for data collection on a larger or different scale than the services you mentioned.
The heartrate tracking, eye tracking, engagement metric and identifying separate users are all things that have never been combined in one mainstream living room device, so discussing what possibilities this might bring for them commercially rather than just for players in-game does have its merits. I'm probably getting both the PS4 and Xbone at some point, so I'm really not trying to fan the flames of an inane fanboy squabble.
Lastly, Kinect can indeed be turned off, but from what we can tell this is a result of the backlash and wasn't the original plan. It's hard to tell, but it took a long time before we finally got confirmation and clarity about this.
Well I guess I'm more speaking to the people in this thread that somehow think that the sole purpose and reason that ms has poured billions into Xbox is the endgame of getting your reactions to TV shows. If data was worth that much to companies then X1 would be 99 dollars and subsidized by every entertainment channel company in existence.
NullPointer
Member
Why subsidize when you can charge those same customers to use (and provide their data on) it?
Uh, to make sure it gets into every household?
faceless007
Member
Wanting to get the box into as many homes as feasible and wanting to make money on the box aren't mutually exclusive.
Or, if they are, MS obviously wants to strike a compromise between then.
IsntChrisL
Member
I made a whole video about this a few months back. The message was delivered sarcastically, but I still believe it to be true all the same. I think this is a HUGE reason Microsoft is so insistent on bundling the Kinect with every console. This was their plan all along.
NullPointer
Member
They don't seem to want every household, not if they can get the households of the more marketable demographics (who will also pay MS to participate). Their original pre-180, online-only plans would have ditched more than 30% of their 360 userbase.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
it would certainly fit with their previous 'innovations' of making Gold / Silver connecting almost mandatory (and certainly for Gold), but more importantly: Achievements.
Achievements are just a way of generating data about player behavior, while also serving as a reward for players.
So yeah, this is probably likely. It also adds to the previous mandatory online link, so that this data could be sent once every day. :\
Achievements are just a way of generating data about player behavior, while also serving as a reward for players.
So yeah, this is probably likely. It also adds to the previous mandatory online link, so that this data could be sent once every day. :\
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Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
Aren't they also planning to make Achievements for tv watching?
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
I don't know, but that would make sense.
Indy Game: The Movie on Steam also has achievements though.
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Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
BruiserBear
Banned
Ever since Microsoft stated the XB1 was $500 and Kinect was a mandatory part of the experience, I've firmly believed there was more to this story.
You have to remember that companies like Microsoft don't make demands like that unless they had very specific goals in mind. Kinect was SO important to THEM, they were willing to make weird demands and have a very expensive console out of the gate.
I DO NOT believe Microsoft thinks the Kinect is truly going to become a major gaming asset, or some navigational breakthrough for home TV. Yes, it has uses, but for them to gamble their Xbox business on this thing, and know it's going to cause them to be at $500, they had to believe it was worth it to them in the end.
The initial demands of always online, Kinect must be plugged in, it all points to them wanting data, and badly.
To be clear I do not believe in any NSA like conspiracies here. I simply believe there are some data related uses Microsoft feels are VERY valuable to them, and thus they chose to build these rules around that goal.
So in closing, it's quite possible some aspects of the OP are very accurate, and there was probably even more to it.
You have to remember that companies like Microsoft don't make demands like that unless they had very specific goals in mind. Kinect was SO important to THEM, they were willing to make weird demands and have a very expensive console out of the gate.
I DO NOT believe Microsoft thinks the Kinect is truly going to become a major gaming asset, or some navigational breakthrough for home TV. Yes, it has uses, but for them to gamble their Xbox business on this thing, and know it's going to cause them to be at $500, they had to believe it was worth it to them in the end.
The initial demands of always online, Kinect must be plugged in, it all points to them wanting data, and badly.
To be clear I do not believe in any NSA like conspiracies here. I simply believe there are some data related uses Microsoft feels are VERY valuable to them, and thus they chose to build these rules around that goal.
So in closing, it's quite possible some aspects of the OP are very accurate, and there was probably even more to it.
Then it has to be in their privacy policy. It isn't.
Ploid 3.0
Member
Same here, I mean Kinect 1 hasn't lit the xbox world on fire in the gameplay department other than Dancing games? Ok I can see menu navigations, and the cool factor of talking to your system, but they doubled down on Kinect 2. It looks more expensive and still probably won't be good for normal games.
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