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SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion

DatDude

Banned
BI doesn't even explain why they have an underclass when they have steampunk machina who could probably do all of the labor as it is. Why bother letting in Negroes and Irishmen if you're trying to create a racist utopia? The existence of the Vox Populi doesn't even make sense, because the existence of an oppressed underclass on Columbia isn't even justified, because the racists could've just left those people back on land anyway.

Because as the end of the day you still need people to do the lowest common denominator jobs: washing the shit stains off the toilet.

An people who usually are desperate enough to do these jobs, are the lowest common denominator race/ethnicity.

I mean, fuck the same thing could be said about Bioshock. It was a city built for SCIENTISTS! ARTISTS! THE RICH AND THE WEALTHY!

Fuck, you manage to build a city under the ocean, you have big fucking brainwashed people protecting little girls, surely you could build brainwashed workers who will do all the shit that nobody else wants to do!

But, yet nobody argues why did you bring all these poor talent-less schmucks to a city which was built for the talented rich :/
 

DTKT

Member
Why do some people need everything to be explained in these stories? Sometimes these explanations (eg about the revolution) aren't actually needed to tell the required story.

The game touches on several "touchy" and complex subjects that were absent in Bioshock 1. Things like racism, race superiority, religions zeal, slavery, rebellion, terrorism, faith are exceedingly complex to address. Infinite has a lot of moments where it uses these themes in order to give life to Colombia but without the care and the attention they would need to be properly portrayed and explained in context.

I have this feeling like they simply used these themes as tools and furniture for Colombia. Infinite is not a game about racism, religious zeal, bigotry but it's still abundantly using these topics as building blocs for the overall feel of the setting. It's a shame that it couldn't be a more robust package.

I had zero expectations so I don't feel as let down by the lack of complexity and details in all the side stuff. But it's definitely a missed opportunity.
 

Gorillaz

Member
On another note, I find the reception to Bioshock Infinite's ending (which embraces the futility of choice and seems to indicate that free will is an illusion) compared to the massive fan backlash of Mass Effect 3's original endings to be quite amusing. Perhaps you will say that Ken Levine never gave us the false premise of choice in BI. That it is meant to be a rails shooter with minimal RPG elements from start to the finish. And like livestock to the slaughter, we embrace the lack of choice from the beginning, all the way to the end. In which case I will say that at least Mr. Levine was honest to us, unlike Mr. Hudson. But is it not ironic that in a medium that is supposed to better than the ones before because of its interactivity, we embrace this message of the lack of choice? And why?

I think it's more so a trade off. People will accept the linear ending and illusion of free will because in return you get a strong narrative. Kind of like the saying "The Journey is more important then the destination", but in this case it's the destination that made the journey worth it.
 
OMG

Just started a new 1999 playthrough and got to Battleship Bay. The couple to the right of the exit to the gift shop have a short exchange about marriage when you walk up to them. It ends with the woman saying "Some men haven't the slightest idea who they really are."

So much foreshadowing.
 

DatDude

Banned
But is it not ironic that in a medium that is supposed to better than the ones before because of its interactivity, we embrace this message of the lack of choice? And why?

Because choice is fucking irrelevant.

More choices just end up equating to the same bullshit, just in different clothing.

An this isn't embracing the lack of choice, but rather more acceptance.
 
I'm not saying they needed to do it in detail, it's just when you think about it in detail for a little bit the world-building seems to fall apart. I think the main problem with Bioshock Infinite is the whole premise (ha!). You had this cool floating city that was all intriguing to begin with. That's high concept enough. But unlike Bioshock, where the story and the setting were all poking around about choice and freedom and the ideology involved (namely, Objectivism) is all about freedom, in Infinite you have all of this quantum mechanics nonsense. It just doesn't gel together with me. Examining a hyper-jingoistic, zealous American splinter state facing a worker's revolution would be interesting enough; I'm sure all of the character drama involving DeWitt, Comstock, and Elizabeth could be made to fit that. To make it all about multiverses just seems gratuitous. What the hell does the nature of reality or fate have to do with a flying racist city. Both are fantastical enough elements but they don't fit together well enough imo
 
The game touches on several "touchy" and complex subjects that were absent in Bioshock 1. Things like racism, race superiority, religions zeal, slavery, rebellion, terrorism, faith are exceedingly complex to address. Infinite has a few moments where it uses these themes in order to give life to Colombia but without the care and the attention they would need to be properly portrayed and explained in context.

I have this feeling like they simply used these themes as tools and furniture for Colombia. Infinite is not a game about racism, religious zeal, bigotry but it's still abundantly using these topics as building blocs for the overall feel of the setting. It's a shame that it couldn't be a more robust package.

I had zero expectations so I don't feel as let down by the lack of complexity and details in all the side stuff. But it's definitely a missed opportunity.
It's also a 12 hour long game, not a book. I think it's fair enough to allow them to touch on those issues without going into a great explorations of how they all came about and contributed to the downfall of the city.
 

DTKT

Member
I'm not saying they needed to do it in detail, it's just when you think about it in detail for a little bit the world-building seems to fall apart. I think the main problem with Bioshock Infinite is the whole premise (ha!). You had this cool floating city that was all intriguing to begin with. That's high concept enough. But unlike Bioshock, where the story and the setting were all poking around about choice and freedom and the ideology involved (namely, Objectivism) is all about freedom, in Infinite you have all of this quantum mechanics nonsense. It just doesn't gel together with me. Examining a hyper-jingoistic, zealous American splinter state facing a worker's revolution would be interesting enough; I'm sure all of the character drama involving DeWitt, Comstock, and Elizabeth could be made to fit that. To make it all about multiverses just seems gratuitous. What the hell does the nature of reality or fate have to do with a flying racist city. Both are fantastical enough elements but they don't fit together well enough imo

Agreed.

I'm still quite pleased with Infinite, but I would have taken "racist-city in the sky with a religious zealot at the head" versus "science-cy mumbo jumbo time-traveling". Still, for what it is, it's a miracle it didn't end in a clusterfuck of amazing proportion.

It's also a 12 hour long game, not a book. I think it's fair enough to allow them to touch on those issues without going into a great explorations of how they all came about and contributed to the downfall of the city.

I guess so? It's just a videogame is a pretty weak excuse to be honest. There must be ways to address these subjects in a more detailed and complex way without adding 20 hours to the game. They made the choice to use them as the "fluff" of the city and should be fairly criticized for that. Maybe it's topics they will explore during the DLC. I wonder if those are going to take place after the ending. On one hand, that would be really interesting but quite complex to do. I'm guessing it's going to be missions that are quite independent from the main story.
 

MormaPope

Banned
Honestly, I am embarassed by these historical oversimplifications and even more embarassed that they are being used to justify a papering over of a videogames lack of narrative development. It is almost like this wierd backwards thinking where political revolution was badly explored in this game in an overly simplistic way therefore you guys seem to assume that real history is equally simplistic.

So you complained about Infinite's story being complicated and convoluted, yet you want more complicated allegories and story beats that give better/more history lessons? Your arguments are starting to get convoluted.
 

pakkit

Banned
On another note, I find the reception to Bioshock Infinite's ending (which embraces the futility of choice and seems to indicate that free will is an illusion) compared to the massive fan backlash of Mass Effect 3's original endings to be quite amusing. Perhaps you will say that Ken Levine never gave us the false premise of choice in BI. That it is meant to be a rails shooter with minimal RPG elements from start to the finish. And like livestock to the slaughter, we embrace the lack of choice from the beginning, all the way to the end. In which case I will say that at least Mr. Levine was honest to us, unlike Mr. Hudson. But is it not ironic that in a medium that is supposed to better than the ones before because of its interactivity, we embrace this message of the lack of choice? And why?

It seems pretty clear to me. Mass Effect was. from the beginning, marketed as a game that would react to and embrace your decision. The titel of the series is "Mass Effect." Then they decided to go arthouse in the final act, despite denying that the ending of the series would be a simple "A,B,C" choice.

Bioshock Infiinite, on the other hand, foreshadows it's thoughts on finality from the get-go. Furthermore, I think you make the error of conflating "interactivity" with "choice". They're clearly two different concepts. Everyone can agree that videogames have a great strength in interactivity, but not every writer in the medium emphasizes choice, or even thinks its a good thing to offer.

Regarding your second post, I think the multiverse is Ken's way of addressing the imaginative design of the world. It makes the city more plausible, and not in an arbitrary "Jedis have midiclorians" way.
 

LTWheels

Member
They do briefly touch on those themes with the propaganda from the kolisocope and posters around the world. They give enough of an incite into those themes without being elicite about them.
 

Sblargh

Banned
I think the personal stories are centre stage in this game, since there is a relationship evolving as you play the game. The other stories aren't as in the fore as the previous Bioshock games for this reason.

It's stated that the Vox rebelled against the Founders because they kept them down and were spurred on by the revolutionary zeal and propaganda of Fitzroy, who held a grudge after her false arrest for killing Lady Comstock. I'm not sure there's a need to delve any deeper than that, although I guess they could have gone deeper. Where do you stop is the question.

It's a good point. I think Bioshock escapes a bit this criticism because a properly objectivist society never actually existed, so it was its very own sandbox in a way. It had less responsibilites.

I love the game for the personal stories, and I love this sci-fi sandbox with its crazy twins and lighthouses and tears and quantum balloons and robots with cancer. But your question remains, once you get into these very real world issues of race and class, where do you stop? How do you say you talked enough about how much crap people can take from an unjust society before they turn violent? And how do you know you dealt approprietly with the issue of how much violence is just or unjust violence?

To be fair, as I played the game, it was just a passing concern. As soon as these issues started to bother me, the Booker-Elizabeth drama would get my attention and affection. But then you turn off the game and there is this praise of how it deals with these issues and it is where it really bothers me.

Standards set by whom?

And people laughed at GTA IV being "oscar-worthy" because it was shitty fucking game. It was a horrible regression of San Andreas and honestly didn't deserve the praise since it fell backwards on it's major, number underlying principle, which was simply being a fun sandbox experience.

I come as a NeoGAF user to proclaim that the standards are now higher.
It is done.

Not all rebellions are that simple. But at it's core they all share the same foundation as to why they began.

Even Bioshock 1 rebellion was simple, which this guy is seeming to herald as the shining example of explanation. It was just poor people, sick of being poor and mistreated and rebelled.

I think the same goes for Infinite rebellion. He's fishing for deeper back story when there simply doesn't need to be.

Actually, Bioshock's revolt didn't even started as a class thing. It started with the smuggling of bibles. This is how Rapture is very different from real world societies. It was totally free market to sell addicting, mind-destroying, super-powered drugs, but selling bibles was going too far. Splicers were a problem of too much freedom inside an aquarium, the poverty issue comes after the smuggling of bible issue which comes before ADAM changed everything. Rapture is too alien a place to warrant this kind of parallels; Columbia, on the other hands, invite the parallelism too much.
 

DatDude

Banned
What the hell does the nature of reality or fate have to do with a flying racist city. Both are fantastical enough elements but they don't fit together well enough imo

I think your problem is that your seeing this as the major core theme of Infinite.

It isn't. It's about Booker, Comstock, Elizabeth, and the Lutece Twins.

Everything else is just the backdrop for the main notion of all the quantum mechanic foolishness that you like to refer it as.

An your right, Bioshock did piece this better together. But that's also because it was SPECIFICALLY TIED into the narration.

Atlas was the leader of the uprising. The root and the cause. He was a major component to the narrative that tied all these themes together.

While in Infinite this is just simply the background that's need for the narrative to occur.
 

Lunar15

Member
Hold on, did Comstock know when he took Anna, that it would be the thing that made him into what he is? Why would he do that to himself, when it's the thing he regretted the most?
 

MormaPope

Banned
Hold on, did Comstock know when he took Anna, that it would be the thing that made him into what he is? Why would he do that to himself, when it's the thing he regretted the most?

Comstock put his daughter's first period in a display case. Like I said, baptism is one hell of a drug.
 
I'm not saying they needed to do it in detail, it's just when you think about it in detail for a little bit the world-building seems to fall apart. I think the main problem with Bioshock Infinite is the whole premise (ha!). You had this cool floating city that was all intriguing to begin with. That's high concept enough. But unlike Bioshock, where the story and the setting were all poking around about choice and freedom and the ideology involved (namely, Objectivism) is all about freedom, in Infinite you have all of this quantum mechanics nonsense. It just doesn't gel together with me. Examining a hyper-jingoistic, zealous American splinter state facing a worker's revolution would be interesting enough; I'm sure all of the character drama involving DeWitt, Comstock, and Elizabeth could be made to fit that. To make it all about multiverses just seems gratuitous. What the hell does the nature of reality or fate have to do with a flying racist city. Both are fantastical enough elements but they don't fit together well enough imo
Well I suppose it depends on which way around you think those two ideas came. Do you think they wanted to make a game which explored multiverses and reality and fate first or do you think they first of all wanted to make a game about a flying city built by a secessionist? If it's the former - why not tell that story around a flying city built by a secessionist? "There's always a city".
That's obviously simplifying things - one did not necessarily come before the other - but I didn't feel that the two ideas were as incongruous as you did.
 

Sblargh

Banned
Hold on, did Comstock know when he took Anna, that it would be the thing that made him into what he is? Why would he do that to himself, when it's the thing he regretted the most?

Booker isn't young Comstock, he is alternative Comstock. Comstock is a Booker who never had an Anna because he changed his name and became a prophet. Booker is a Comstock who had the opportunity of getting married and having a daughter because he never became a prophet.
 

dejay

Banned
What the hell does the nature of reality or fate have to do with a flying racist city.

That made burst out in laughter, but not in a derogatory way against your post. I think the term "flying racist city" is funny for some reason.

Plus I'm a bit drunk.

I guess they could have gone for a more streamlined environment in which to build a story, but I guess when it takes you five years to get these games out you try and put as much of your creative juice into them as possible. Plus, I like it, so that's all that matters. I like Firefly - essentially the same era juxtaposed with technology, so I may be biased.
 

DTKT

Member
Hold on, did Comstock know when he took Anna, that it would be the thing that made him into what he is? Why would he do that to himself, when it's the thing he regretted the most?

His only insight into the "future" was through Lutece. She fed him the information required in order to bring her brother into her reality and later, bring Booker.

Well I suppose it depends on which way around you think those two ideas came. Do you think they wanted to make a game which explored multiverses and reality and fate first or do you think they first of all wanted to make a game about a flying city built by a secessionist? If it's the former - why not tell that story around a flying city built by a secessionist? "There's always a city".
That's obviously simplifying things - one did not necessarily come before the other - but I didn't feel that the two ideas were as incongruous as you did.

To be fair, the multi-verse/alternate reality themes, while heavily foreshadowed, only come in play during the last hour and a half or so. The rest of the story is all about Booker, Comstock, the Vox and all the other parts of the city.
 

Lunar15

Member
His only insight into the "future" was through Lutece. She fed him the information she needed in order to bring her brother into her reality and later, bring Booker.

Ah, got it. Part of me worries that, because I didn't get all the voxaphones, I missed a lot of these elements. Not a great way to tell a story, in my opinion. At least, not this kind of story.
 
I think your problem is that your seeing this as the major core theme of Infinite.

I guess at the end of the day, I feel baited and hooked by the whole setting. You create Columbia, which looks great and feels great but once you start to analyze it a little you realize is just a hollow set piece for Schrödinger's Catastrophe.

While in Infinite this is just simply the background that's need for the narrative to occur.

And that, I feel, is a failure of this game. It's ludonarrative dissonance. You have a place that seems to embody turn of the century Americana and the grotesqueries of our nature, but then the game just uses it for something entirely different. Which, I feel, is a waste of potential for the setting.

That made burst out in laughter, but not in a derogatory way against your post. I think the term "flying racist city" is funny for some reason.

No worries, I'm pretty tongue-in-cheek throughout this. I don't think it's a bad game, I just think it's worth criticizing, and like its predecessor it's more shallow than people give it credit for.
 

DatDude

Banned
But then you turn off the game and there is this praise of how it deals with these issues and it is where it really bothers me.


I think were more impressed that a AAA game (I don't even think artsy indie games touch racism and shit like this) challeneged these themes in general. Could they have been improved up? For fucking sure...but I think we all agree that is a big stepping stone in the right direction, and will hopefully inspire more developers to take these thematic risks, and more developers to fund these projects.


I come as a NeoGAF user to proclaim that the standards are now higher.
It is done.

Just how Sessler has the right to proclaim whatever the fuck he wants, because just like you, he can. So, let it be done ;)



It was totally free market to sell addicting, mind-destroying, super-powered drugs, but selling bibles was going too far. .

Yes because the main ideology was:

bioshock-no-gods-or-kings-only-man.jpg


Religion was a big fucking no-no
 
To be fair, the multi-verse/alternate reality themes, while heavily foreshadowed, only come in play during the last hour and a half or so. The rest of the story is all about Booker, Comstock, the Vox and all the other parts of the city.
But they're the reason for the series of events which led to the rest of the game happening. How would they finish the story without the multiverse and alternate reality aspects?
 

Lunar15

Member
Booker isn't young Comstock, he is alternative Comstock. Comstock is a Booker who never had an Anna because he changed his name and became a prophet. Booker is a Comstock who had the opportunity of getting married and having a daughter because he never became a prophet.

Wait wait wait. Really? That is not how I understood it. I thought because he gave away anna, he went to baptize himself to wash away that sin, and therefore became comstock.
 

LTWheels

Member
Ah, got it. Part of me worries that, because I didn't get all the voxaphones, I missed a lot of these elements. Not a great way to tell a story, in my opinion. At least, not this kind of story.

I think one of the logs mentions that Comstock fails to realise that the 'future' prophecies are the possible future events from other realities. He thinks that it is set in stone and going to happen in his reality.
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I hope the DLC just ends up being different versions of Booker in a bunch of weird, wacky settings

Revolution Booker's perspective would be interesting.
 

Sblargh

Banned
I think were more impressed that a AAA game (I don't even think artsy indie games touch racism and shit like this) challeneged these themes in general. Could they have been improved up? For fucking sure...but I think we all agree that is a big stepping stone in the right direction, and will hopefully inspire more developers to take these thematic risks, and more developers to fund these projects.

It totally is. That's why I said it raises the bar even above itself. It was a backhand compliment, but it was a genuine compliment.

Just how Sessler has the right to proclaim whatever the fuck he wants, because just like you, he can. So, let it be done ;)


Yes because the main ideology was:

bioshock-no-gods-or-kings-only-man.jpg


Religion was a big fucking no-no

Which is very weird from a real history point of view. The few atheocratic societies we got were also the opposite of Ryan's free market ideology. Rapture feels more like a very cool though experiment where Columbia feels like sci-fi revisionism.
 

CCF23

Member
Wait wait wait. Really? That is not how I understood it. I thought because he gave away anna, he went to baptize himself to wash away that sin, and therefore became comstock.

Don't they explain this? The baptism is to wash away his sins from when he was at war. Battle of Wounded Knee?
 
Regarding your second post, I think the multiverse is Ken's way of addressing the imaginative design of the world. It makes the city more plausible, and not in an arbitrary "Jedis have midiclorians" way.

Plasmids are pretty hokey too, but they were just there in the setting and while an important story element (causing the downfall of Rapture and leading to moral choices regarding harvesting), nothing more than that. In Infinite, quantum mechanics not only explain Vigors, but makes the whole story be about multiverses and predestination and turns it way too high concept. It's sort of like the ending to LOST, maybe?

But they're the reason for the series of events which led to the rest of the game happening. How would they finish the story without the multiverse and alternate reality aspects?

They could have used a different plot mechanic (even if its supernatural/sci-fi/fantasy) that's less wacky and jarring than multiverse theory?

Which is very weird from a real history point of view. The few atheocratic societies we got were also the opposite of Ryan's free market ideology. Rapture feels more like a very cool though experiment where Columbia feels like sci-fi revisionism.

Rapture was really cool because it really was Ken Levine's exploration into extremism and ideology. Andrew Ryan founded a utopia, then like all utopia-founders, he went all Stalin on us and became repressive and often counter to his own ideology. Suppression of liberty by banning religion (I think it was to prevent Atlas from using religion as a way to stir up the underclass?) was his own hypocritical turning against his own beliefs. So Rapture banning Bibles at that stage is a believable turn of events.
 

DTKT

Member
But they're the reason for the series of events which led to the rest of the game happening. How would they finish the story without the multiverse and alternate reality aspects?

I just meant to say that when a "fresh" user is playing, the focus seems to be on the City and the different actors within. Infinite, in another reality, could have been Bioshock:Colombia. You are surexposed to the city so when the game fails to properly explain some it's components, it's kind of disapointing.
 
Oh... ok. That makes this story significantly more murky to me.
That's what made it all click for me.
Is baptised, changes name, becomes mad ultra-nationalist, meets Lutece and builds a floating city. The rest happens.
Isn't baptised, none of that happens, but has Anna. The rest happens.
 

DatDude

Banned
I guess at the end of the day, I feel baited and hooked by the whole setting. You create Columbia, which looks great and feels great but once you start to analyze it a little you realize is just a hollow set piece for Schrödinger's Catastrophe.

I think that stands for alot of media, not just video games.

Hell you could argue that the Titantic was a film that created a setting about inequality (the people who drowned first, the irish, the blacks, the poor of the poor), but as we all know Jack and Rose was the main theme of this narrative.

Same with Infinite. The ship is Columbia, while Jack and Rose, the main narrative components/the stars, are Booker and Elizabeth.

This occurs for alot of films as well, titanic is just the first one that came to mind.

And that, I feel, is a failure of this game. It's ludonarrative dissonance. You have a place that seems to embody turn of the century Americana and the grotesqueries of our nature, but then the game just uses it for something entirely different. Which, I feel, is a waste of potential for the setting.

This isn't a failure of the game. It's a failure based on your expectations. The game never promised on the back off the box that this is main revolving theme. None of the media even showed that either (just random occurrences here and there).

You just personally wanted this to be the core theme, and was incredibly disappointed when you discovered it was the backdrop rather than the main catalyst that drove the narrative forward.


I don't think it's a bad game, I just think it's worth criticizing, and like its predecessor it's more shallow than people give it credit for.

I think that you just don't care for the quantum phsyics narrative aspect. Because just simply doing a second playthorugh sheds so much light in regards to how much effort that Levine outputted into this narrative.

The Lutece conversation, the foreshadowing in the lighthouse, with the heads and tails aspect, even the music lyrics in the pop music had a lot of depth and meaning to the narrative.

It's incredibly well made simply from a foreshadowing perspective, and simply how much details were scattered throughout the narrative that gave hints to the players about what would occur, but was simply nonsense/ white noise to the player.

Plus, it's a fucking hard narrative to write and come up with. An the fact that Levine managed to include next to none plot holes is a feet in itself. Especially since the highly praised Kojima, comes up with the exact same twists, but never the bow that neatly wraps it all nicely together.

I think in that regard, saying Infinite is shallow is showing quite a bit of disrespect to Levine and the writers at Irrational for the work they put in the narrative.

But hey, it's your opinion, so I respect that.
 
I just meant to say that when a "fresh" user is playing, the focus seems to be on the City and the different actors within. Infinite, in another reality, could have been Bioshock:Colombia. I feel like you are surexposed to the city so when the game fails to properly explain some it's components, it's kind of disapointing.
I'm still not sure which components aren't properly explained. If you stripped out the multiverse and alternate reality aspects, what would Booker's reason for saving Elizabeth? The story would bpneed to be heavily rewritten, and I don't see how it would be any better. I think it would also worsen it just as a game since those elements actually led to some neat gameplay ideas and some really interesting moments with the tears.
 

Lunar15

Member
Ok, just trying to rationalize the plot first:

The story is basically the Lucetes trying to undo their own damage, seeing how they took Anna in the first place?
 

seldead

Member
Which is very weird from a real history point of view. The few atheocratic societies we got were also the opposite of Ryan's free market ideology. Rapture feels more like a very cool though experiment where Columbia feels like sci-fi revisionism.
That's just because an Objectivist society based on Ayn Rand's philosophy didn't exist, but having a completely libertarian view (outside of religion, which she was very much against much to the irony of Paul Ryan citing her as his idol) was the foundation of Rand's dream world.
 

Lunar15

Member
EDIT: Nevermind.

I'm just gonna sleep on this. I hate that I have to order the plot up first, at least a little bit, before I can properly analyze the themes.
 

LTWheels

Member
Ok, just trying to rationalize the plot first:

The story is basically the Lucetes trying to undo their own damage, seeing how they took Anna in the first place?

They also show selfishness as if the Lucetes stopped themselves from building the city or discovering the tears it would have had the same effect undoing their damage.
 

vladdamad

Member
I still don't understand why Liz killing Booker at the end kills all potential Comstocks. Why would killing that Booker alone kill all potential Comstocks? Surely if they were to properly go back in time (through a parallel universe) they would have met an alternate Booker there, who was being baptised, i.e. current Booker from the past?
 

pakkit

Banned
EDIT: Nevermind.

I'm just gonna sleep on this. I hate that I have to order the plot up first, at least a little bit, before I can properly analyze the themes.

You hate engaging with plot? Almost all good stories necessitate reflection afterwards.
 
I still don't understand why Liz killing Booker at the end kills all potential Comstocks. Why would killing that Booker alone kill all potential Comstocks? Surely if they were to properly go back in time (through a parallel universe) they would have met an alternate Booker there, who was being baptised, i.e. current Booker from the past?

I always thought of it as a tree. Kill off one branch and destroy the resulting branches of them. At least, that's how I rationalize it so I don't have to deal with the loops that tend to result from thinking about multiple dimensions, time travel, etc.
 
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