rareside said:
Zabka said:I was thinking of something like this earlier, possibly initiated by Michael Caine's character. The only thing that turns me off of it is the top and the use of totems.
You can interpret these as plot holes or issues with the script, or evidence for the whole film being a dream. I believe it to be the former, the most egregious to me being the bolded, because it makes NO FUCKING SENSE TO ME, and no one here has been able to give me a suitable explanation for it.BobsRevenge said:But so much about the "real world" is dream-like. It really does feel like a dream when you watch it. All of the intrigue, and arbitrary logic, and pacing, and all of the things that happen that are illogical are immediately explained.
How could Watanbe buy an airline in a day? It's a goddamn dream. But its weird otherwise, isn't it?
All of the fake rules about how dreams work that aren't actually true? Dreamed up.
The fact that a machine like that could exist? Dream
Why is his wife across the street in another building when she kills herself? dream
Why would they train up Ellen Page when Cobb knows the stakes are possible coma? dream
Why did his father pick him up in LA? dream
Why were his children wearing the same clothing and in the same situation as it was dreamed? It's a goddamn dream.
It just makes more sense as a dream.
edit:
How does JGL take so much more than 2 minutes when its told he only has two minutes? Dream
How come the van falling down the hill didn't act as a kick for JGL? dream
How did the bullets never actually hit them when they were in the van, except for that one shot that hit watanabe? Dream
Shit, this is kind of fun.
Yes. I don't think it was all a dream.Mr. Snrub said:If it was all Cobb's dream, wouldn't the stuff not involving him (specifically Arthur and Ariadne talking about Mal and their own totems) not make much sense?
I don't think the kick is an automatic thing. The dreamer needs the physical sensation to pull himself out, but it can be ignored or missed.You can interpret these as plot holes or issues with the script, or evidence for the whole film being a dream. I believe it to be the former, the most egregious to me being the bolded, because it makes NO FUCKING SENSE TO ME, and no one here has been able to give me a suitable explanation for it.
ChoklitReign said:Ask yourselves which is more likely: do the inconsistencies in the film mean it was all a dream, or does it mean it's a goddamn movie that's not infallible and prone to plot holes?![]()
I really like this theory.Blader5489 said:Here's what I think happened: Cobb dies from his stab wound, which ejects him from limbo, but at the same time Cobb drowns in level 1 (consequently killing him in levels 2 and 3), which bounces him back into limbo on the shore. And because he arrived there by the normal way of dying--instead of consciously entering it, like he and Page did from level 3--he is a bit disoriented at first.
rareside said:
LCfiner said:I posted way earlier in this thread that the biggest clue for me that could be used to interpret the whole thing was a dream is the chase sequence midway through. the ever narrowing alleyway where Leo gets stuck, the way he turns into an action star (like Eames in the arctic base), the "just in time" pickup by Saito. that whole sequence is dream logic and dream imagery piled on top of each other. when i was watching it, i kept thinking it was gonna be a dream reveal at the end but they maintained that the sequence was in the "real world".
I'd like to believe that the ending was the real world. that there wasn't an additional dream surrounding the whole plot, but when I think of that chase sequence, plus the circumstances of his reunion with the kids, plus some pointed Caine dialog... I dunno. It seems like there's lots of clues wanting to point you in the other direction.
It also doesn't help that every secondary character in the movie has no arc or well defined personality. I guess that could be attributed to standard action movie cliches but it seems a bit odd that every other person they meet is essentially just a tool or movie cliche.
That's more action movie logic than dream logic, not that my dreams follow any logic. The only reason why dreams even have logic in this movie is because they are meticulously constructed.LCfiner said:I posted way earlier in this thread that the biggest clue for me that could be used to interpret the whole thing was a dream is the chase sequence midway through. the ever narrowing alleyway where Leo gets stuck, the way he turns into an action star (like Eames in the arctic base), the "just in time" pickup by Saito. that whole sequence is dream logic and dream imagery piled on top of each other. when i was watching it, i kept thinking it was gonna be a dream reveal at the end but they maintained that the sequence was in the "real world".
Deku said:The mombasa scene is real.
The action star stuff in Mombasa was because it's a movie so it has movie chase convetions to follow. Even then, Cobb was just running away. Not dodging volley after volley of gunfire that kept on missing as the others did later.
Note the most intense and implausible action sequences and edge of seat (not dying) happened in the dream levels.
Tideas said:how did Cobb jump down to pavement below from what looks like the 2nd/3rd floor and escaped unharm?
dream logic or movie logic?
Tideas said:how did Cobb jump down to pavement below from what looks like the 2nd/3rd floor and escaped unharm?
dream logic or movie logic?
Pavaloo said:I just saw it a second time today and I'm wondering if anyone mentioned this yet? It has me convinced that the movie was a dream; in the first scene with Cobb washing up on shore and talking to Saito, the dialogue has Saito mentioning "a half remembered dream" (or something along those lines), but near the end when we return to that scene Cobb is the one that says that line. I'm absolutely certain that Cobb spoke some of Saito's lines from the encounter at the very beginning of the movie. It has me thinking the movie is a dream or a memory that Cobb can't change (much like what he told Ariadne when he showed her his memory of leaving his kids)?
gamemadmax said:Sorry if this is old.
I think the first scene with old saito and one of the end scene with him again are different.
In the first he says to cobb " i know you, from the half remembered dream "
And in another scene saito says " i know you " and COBB is like like i've been here before and than HE says " from the half remembered dream "
I may be wrong...
Can anybody confirm this !!!
LCfiner said:I guess that's why I thought it felt out of place. I know that there's simple action movie logic at work but there's no reason to think that Nolan would insert a very traditional action movie scene in a movie that's full of untraditional scenes and concepts and not know why he's doing it.
and that alleyway... man, that's real obvious imagery.
.
Well, the movie just exists. I can construct my own shit around it to explain things even if they are really inconsistencies or plot holes, can't I?ChoklitReign said:Ask yourselves which is more likely: do the inconsistencies in the film mean it was all a dream, or does it mean it's a goddamn movie that's not infallible and prone to plot holes?![]()
Deku said:In the third world, there is often no centralized planning and over time, buildings and structures get built in haphazard ways.
there's nothing outside of dream interpretation to think Cobb getting stuck between the buildings is nothing but a cinematic device to build tension.
Also, the biggest problem with the dreams are that it's the 'God' excuse. Just as 'God' can be used to explain any supernational phenomenon, 'it was all a dream' is a similar excuse for proponents that the entire movie was a dream, to find clues to say that it was all just a dream. It's a cop out on every level.
Furthermore, the 'it's all a dream' theorists don't account for the character arcs.
The alternate interpretation of the characters jumping out into reality in-between their dreams is that They experience something in the dreams that changes them, they come out of it to reality, then remember it then they go back in changed. That makes sense. In fact, the entire movitation of the 2nd half of the movie is for cobb and his team to do exactly that to Fischer.
Also Cobb's entire backstory is based on this. Inception he planted in Limbo kicked all the way out to reality that caused his wife to kill herself. If it was all a dream, why the guilt? What are the consequences? There are none. The only reason Cobb is guilt ridden is because he know what was real and her wife is dead because of him.
To imply to entire act of their character's evolution happened in a dream is extremely implausible to say the least.
so there can only be one conclusion, there is a reality in the movie and it's what it begins and ends with.
Right, that the catharsis happens in the dream world sort of invalidates it as something genuinely moving. I can't say I was moved either way.LCfiner said:I'm a bit confused by the bolded statement. I'm not sure what you mean by character arcs. I didn't think that the secondary characters had traditional character arcs. they didn't really change much from the beginning to the end.
do you mean how they altered their dream states in different ways? Sometimes based on suggestions by Cobb or by things happening in higher dream levels?
I agree that the entire story of Cobb's guilt and his character arc makes little sense in a dream. if anything, that's why i want to be believe it's real. I don't think character redemption and catharsis are worthwhile if they happen in a dream world (see: my complaints about<-- non Inception spoiler)Lost Season 6 finale
DevelopmentArrested said:Probably posted but definitely the best discussion on the film so far:
http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2010/07/inceptions_dileep_rao_answers.html
Also, JGL. What an empty shell of a character. He had like, two mildly interesting scenes. Well, aside from the action sequences. But what does that have to do with character?BattleMonkey said:How is Ellen Page so dull? It was just a dream. It all makes sense now.
Deku said:Not to mention that Nolan took pains to show them 'waking up' in ways that is logical and realistic to people waking up to reality (ie: stimuli being applied -- like being dunked into water or dropped from a great height).
BattleMonkey said:Because people wake up from dreams without stimuli as well. And while I might not agree with some on it, they like it as it helps fill in gaps in the more contrived plot elements.
BobsRevenge said:Also, JGL. What an empty shell of a character. He had like, two mildly interesting scenes. Well, aside from the action sequences. But what does that have to do with character?
See?
Dream theory makes more sense by the post!
Skiptastic said:Yeah, I'm not buying the "Leo's just crazy, it's all in his head" explanation. First because I don't think Nolan would do me like that. And for another reason I won't hint at because it will be major spoilers.
Deku said:Put another way, the characters evolve outside of dreams. What they experience inside the dreams do have a profound effect, but it's always after they kick out that the implications became known and they then re-enter the dreams changed.
The 'all a dream' theory assumes all 5 levels are dreamed, all the logic are dreamed up, and finally, the characters develop and change (in their arcs) in the same dream.
This mega dream even less plausible than some of the implausible dreams in the movie.
Not to mention that Nolan took pains to show them 'waking up' in ways that is logical and realistic to people waking up to reality (ie: stimuli being applied -- like being dunked into water or dropped from a great height).
If it was all a dream, why use this painstaking logic?
Mifune said:It seems like Nolan is drawing a straight line between dreams and movies. Whether "it's all a dream" or not is irrelevant because movies are essentially dreams. They're edited like dreams, follow the logic of dreams, often look like dreams.
At least that's what occurred to me while watching it.
PumpkinPie said:The whole film I thought JGL was going to be a double-crosser, I was waiting but it never happened.
Ninja Scooter said:I think I dreamt being in the theatre and the movie was an inception in my own mind.
DMczaf said:What if in Batman Begins, everything after Bruce gets off the plane from his training is a dream, then in Batman 3 he wakes up and goes on his first mission and dies.
DMczaf said:What if in Batman Begins, everything after Bruce gets off the plane from his training is a dream, then in Batman 3 he wakes up and goes on his first mission and dies.
PumpkinPie said:The whole film I thought JGL was going to be a double-crosser, I was waiting but it never happened.
Speevy said:You're in the spoiler thread. Or are you spoiling another movie? Or is this thread a dream?
Skiptastic said:I know what thread I'm in, I created it! I would be spoiling something unrelated.
SamuraiX- said:This would have been epic.
I love it when we can make up different scenarios, endings, sub-plots, etc. based around the same story arc. Movies that we can't stop talking about. Love it.