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*SPOILERS* Inception Thread of Dreaming a Little Bigger

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I should have never entered this thread! I thought I had a pretty good grasp on the film, but now with so many different theories to ponder, I don't know what to believe! :lol

All I know is that this was such a great movie. Man, so damn good.
 
Zabka said:
I was thinking of something like this earlier, possibly initiated by Michael Caine's character. The only thing that turns me off of it is the top and the use of totems.

If it was all Cobb's dream, wouldn't the stuff not involving him (specifically Arthur and Ariadne talking about Mal and their own totems) not make much sense?
 
BobsRevenge said:
But so much about the "real world" is dream-like. It really does feel like a dream when you watch it. All of the intrigue, and arbitrary logic, and pacing, and all of the things that happen that are illogical are immediately explained.

How could Watanbe buy an airline in a day? It's a goddamn dream. But its weird otherwise, isn't it?

All of the fake rules about how dreams work that aren't actually true? Dreamed up.

The fact that a machine like that could exist? Dream

Why is his wife across the street in another building when she kills herself? dream

Why would they train up Ellen Page when Cobb knows the stakes are possible coma? dream

Why did his father pick him up in LA? dream

Why were his children wearing the same clothing and in the same situation as it was dreamed? It's a goddamn dream.

It just makes more sense as a dream.

edit:
How does JGL take so much more than 2 minutes when its told he only has two minutes? Dream

How come the van falling down the hill didn't act as a kick for JGL? dream

How did the bullets never actually hit them when they were in the van, except for that one shot that hit watanabe? Dream

Shit, this is kind of fun.
You can interpret these as plot holes or issues with the script, or evidence for the whole film being a dream. I believe it to be the former, the most egregious to me being the bolded, because it makes NO FUCKING SENSE TO ME, and no one here has been able to give me a suitable explanation for it.
 
Mr. Snrub said:
If it was all Cobb's dream, wouldn't the stuff not involving him (specifically Arthur and Ariadne talking about Mal and their own totems) not make much sense?
Yes. I don't think it was all a dream.
You can interpret these as plot holes or issues with the script, or evidence for the whole film being a dream. I believe it to be the former, the most egregious to me being the bolded, because it makes NO FUCKING SENSE TO ME, and no one here has been able to give me a suitable explanation for it.
I don't think the kick is an automatic thing. The dreamer needs the physical sensation to pull himself out, but it can be ignored or missed.
 
Ask yourselves which is more likely: do the inconsistencies in the film mean it was all a dream, or does it mean it's a goddamn movie that's not infallible and prone to plot holes? :D
 
I posted way earlier in this thread that the biggest clue for me that could be used to interpret the whole thing was a dream is the chase sequence midway through. the ever narrowing alleyway where Leo gets stuck, the way he turns into an action star (like Eames in the arctic base), the "just in time" pickup by Saito. that whole sequence is dream logic and dream imagery piled on top of each other. when i was watching it, i kept thinking it was gonna be a dream reveal at the end but they maintained that the sequence was in the "real world".

I'd like to believe that the ending was the real world. that there wasn't an additional dream surrounding the whole plot, but when I think of that chase sequence, plus the circumstances of his reunion with the kids, plus some pointed Caine dialog... I dunno. It seems like there's lots of clues wanting to point you in the other direction.

It also doesn't help that every secondary character in the movie has no arc or well defined personality. I guess that could be attributed to standard action movie cliches but it seems a bit odd that every other person they meet is essentially just a tool or movie cliche.
 
ChoklitReign said:
Ask yourselves which is more likely: do the inconsistencies in the film mean it was all a dream, or does it mean it's a goddamn movie that's not infallible and prone to plot holes? :D

Bingo. No movie is perfect, and almost ANY movie about alternate realities, or time travel, are going to have plot holes.
 
Blader5489 said:
Here's what I think happened: Cobb dies from his stab wound, which ejects him from limbo, but at the same time Cobb drowns in level 1 (consequently killing him in levels 2 and 3), which bounces him back into limbo on the shore. And because he arrived there by the normal way of dying--instead of consciously entering it, like he and Page did from level 3--he is a bit disoriented at first.
I really like this theory.
 
rareside said:

Nah

I think the idea is definitely implanted in the movie along the way to make you doubt and think while the plot is still going on, but in the end its too flimsy and relies on too many things we have no clue about. If the movie was a "pick your won adventure" type of book that would definitely be one of the endings, just not the real one ;)
 
LCfiner said:
I posted way earlier in this thread that the biggest clue for me that could be used to interpret the whole thing was a dream is the chase sequence midway through. the ever narrowing alleyway where Leo gets stuck, the way he turns into an action star (like Eames in the arctic base), the "just in time" pickup by Saito. that whole sequence is dream logic and dream imagery piled on top of each other. when i was watching it, i kept thinking it was gonna be a dream reveal at the end but they maintained that the sequence was in the "real world".

I'd like to believe that the ending was the real world. that there wasn't an additional dream surrounding the whole plot, but when I think of that chase sequence, plus the circumstances of his reunion with the kids, plus some pointed Caine dialog... I dunno. It seems like there's lots of clues wanting to point you in the other direction.

It also doesn't help that every secondary character in the movie has no arc or well defined personality. I guess that could be attributed to standard action movie cliches but it seems a bit odd that every other person they meet is essentially just a tool or movie cliche.

The mombasa scene is real.

The action star stuff in Mombasa was because it's a movie so it has movie chase convetions to follow. Even then, Cobb was just running away. Not dodging volley after volley of gunfire that kept on missing as the others did later.

Note the most intense and implausible action sequences and edge of seat (not dying) happened in the dream levels.
 
LCfiner said:
I posted way earlier in this thread that the biggest clue for me that could be used to interpret the whole thing was a dream is the chase sequence midway through. the ever narrowing alleyway where Leo gets stuck, the way he turns into an action star (like Eames in the arctic base), the "just in time" pickup by Saito. that whole sequence is dream logic and dream imagery piled on top of each other. when i was watching it, i kept thinking it was gonna be a dream reveal at the end but they maintained that the sequence was in the "real world".
That's more action movie logic than dream logic, not that my dreams follow any logic. The only reason why dreams even have logic in this movie is because they are meticulously constructed.
 
I guess that's why I thought it felt out of place. I know that there's simple action movie logic at work but there's no reason to think that Nolan would insert a very traditional action movie scene in a movie that's full of untraditional scenes and concepts and not know why he's doing it.

and that alleyway... man, that's real obvious imagery.


I'm not convinced one way or another but I don't buy the argument that a movie as complex as Inception has a cliche chase sequence in it "just because action movies have them"

hell, this isn't even an action movie, if you think about it. It's a heist/ sci-fi movie. all the action takes place in the dream world with very little in the way of consequences... with that one exception of the mombasa chase.
 
Deku said:
The mombasa scene is real.

The action star stuff in Mombasa was because it's a movie so it has movie chase convetions to follow. Even then, Cobb was just running away. Not dodging volley after volley of gunfire that kept on missing as the others did later.

Note the most intense and implausible action sequences and edge of seat (not dying) happened in the dream levels.

how did Cobb jump down to pavement below from what looks like the 2nd/3rd floor and escaped unharm?

dream logic or movie logic?
 
Saw the movie last night thanks to my friend hooking us up with some free tickets and it was a blast. Don't know if I want to read theories on it or not after talking about it with my friends. Seems like one of those movies where if I dive in to deep it could ruin it for me.

Oh, and I want some of those action scenes in the next CoD game. Those were mind blowing.
 
Pavaloo said:
I just saw it a second time today and I'm wondering if anyone mentioned this yet? It has me convinced that the movie was a dream; in the first scene with Cobb washing up on shore and talking to Saito, the dialogue has Saito mentioning "a half remembered dream" (or something along those lines), but near the end when we return to that scene Cobb is the one that says that line. I'm absolutely certain that Cobb spoke some of Saito's lines from the encounter at the very beginning of the movie. It has me thinking the movie is a dream or a memory that Cobb can't change (much like what he told Ariadne when he showed her his memory of leaving his kids)?

gamemadmax said:
Sorry if this is old.

I think the first scene with old saito and one of the end scene with him again are different.
In the first he says to cobb " i know you, from the half remembered dream "
And in another scene saito says " i know you " and COBB is like like i've been here before and than HE says " from the half remembered dream "

I may be wrong...
Can anybody confirm this !!!


Can anyone else confirm this? It seems to be overlooked.
 
LCfiner said:
I guess that's why I thought it felt out of place. I know that there's simple action movie logic at work but there's no reason to think that Nolan would insert a very traditional action movie scene in a movie that's full of untraditional scenes and concepts and not know why he's doing it.

and that alleyway... man, that's real obvious imagery.

.


In the third world, there is often no centralized planning and over time, buildings and structures get built in haphazard ways.

there's nothing outside of dream interpretation to think Cobb getting stuck between the buildings is nothing but a cinematic device to build tension.

Also, the biggest problem with the dreams are that it's the 'God' excuse. Just as 'God' can be used to explain any supernational phenomenon, 'it was all a dream' is a similar excuse for proponents that the entire movie was a dream, to find clues to say that it was all just a dream. It's a cop out on every level.

Furthermore, the 'it's all a dream' theorists don't account for the character arcs.

The alternate interpretation of the characters jumping out into reality in-between their dreams is that They experience something in the dreams that changes them, they come out of it to reality, then remember it then they go back in changed. That makes sense. In fact, the entire movitation of the 2nd half of the movie is for cobb and his team to do exactly that to Fischer.

Also Cobb's entire backstory is based on this. Inception he planted in Limbo kicked all the way out to reality that caused his wife to kill herself. If it was all a dream, why the guilt? What are the consequences? There are none. The only reason Cobb is guilt ridden is because he know what was real and her wife is dead because of him. So the 'all a dream' theorists just removed the movie's key motivation as well.

To imply to entire act of their character's evolution happened in a dream is therefore extremely implausible from a screewriter's pov. There would be no consequences and no motivation.

so there can only be one conclusion, there is a reality in the movie and it's what it begins and ends with.
 
ChoklitReign said:
Ask yourselves which is more likely: do the inconsistencies in the film mean it was all a dream, or does it mean it's a goddamn movie that's not infallible and prone to plot holes? :D
Well, the movie just exists. I can construct my own shit around it to explain things even if they are really inconsistencies or plot holes, can't I?

Who is stopping me?

If the movie is open to interpretation, why can't I interpret something that holds the movie in this little bubble where all illogical things are explained away with the fact that its in the bubble.

It is simply more elegant. hmm... I like how the elegance of the explanation just... sort of, contrasts with how complex the movie is. haha

Fun.
 
Deku said:
In the third world, there is often no centralized planning and over time, buildings and structures get built in haphazard ways.

there's nothing outside of dream interpretation to think Cobb getting stuck between the buildings is nothing but a cinematic device to build tension.

Also, the biggest problem with the dreams are that it's the 'God' excuse. Just as 'God' can be used to explain any supernational phenomenon, 'it was all a dream' is a similar excuse for proponents that the entire movie was a dream, to find clues to say that it was all just a dream. It's a cop out on every level.

Furthermore, the 'it's all a dream' theorists don't account for the character arcs.

The alternate interpretation of the characters jumping out into reality in-between their dreams is that They experience something in the dreams that changes them, they come out of it to reality, then remember it then they go back in changed. That makes sense. In fact, the entire movitation of the 2nd half of the movie is for cobb and his team to do exactly that to Fischer.


Also Cobb's entire backstory is based on this. Inception he planted in Limbo kicked all the way out to reality that caused his wife to kill herself. If it was all a dream, why the guilt? What are the consequences? There are none. The only reason Cobb is guilt ridden is because he know what was real and her wife is dead because of him.

To imply to entire act of their character's evolution happened in a dream is extremely implausible to say the least.

so there can only be one conclusion, there is a reality in the movie and it's what it begins and ends with.

I'm a bit confused by the bolded statement. I'm not sure what you mean by character arcs. I didn't think that the secondary characters had traditional character arcs. they didn't really change much from the beginning to the end.

do you mean how they altered their dream states in different ways? Sometimes based on suggestions by Cobb or by things happening in higher dream levels?


I agree that the entire story of Cobb's guilt and his character arc makes little sense in a dream. if anything, that's why i want to be believe it's real. I don't think character redemption and catharsis are worthwhile if they happen in a dream world (see: my complaints about
Lost Season 6 finale
<-- non Inception spoiler)
 
LCfiner said:
I'm a bit confused by the bolded statement. I'm not sure what you mean by character arcs. I didn't think that the secondary characters had traditional character arcs. they didn't really change much from the beginning to the end.

do you mean how they altered their dream states in different ways? Sometimes based on suggestions by Cobb or by things happening in higher dream levels?


I agree that the entire story of Cobb's guilt and his character arc makes little sense in a dream. if anything, that's why i want to be believe it's real. I don't think character redemption and catharsis are worthwhile if they happen in a dream world (see: my complaints about
Lost Season 6 finale
<-- non Inception spoiler)
Right, that the catharsis happens in the dream world sort of invalidates it as something genuinely moving. I can't say I was moved either way.

But what I like so much, maybe because I have a BS in psych, is that someone could dream all that up. Like, it's interesting, because then you get to read into the mind of the person dreaming it. That's hugely of interest to me. I'd like to watch the movie again with that interpretation in mind. Sort of, read into the inconsistencies and figure out what in someone's head would result in it. :lol :lol

I like that. Plus it helps me ignore all the weird assumptions and rules about dreams that are largely false. I don't have to care. Which allows me to enjoy the movie more. I'm not constantly reminded that the movie is entirely based on misconceptions about human psychology in so many different ways.

edit: I can also ignore the silly action-movie logic that pervades it.
 
I really do need to see this movie a second time before it hits Blu ray. I want to take note of more shit instead of letting everything just wash over me as an emotional experience. (which is how I watch most movies the first time)
 
Put another way, the characters evolve outside of dreams. What they experience inside the dreams do have a profound effect, but it's always after they kick out that the implications became known and they then re-enter the dreams changed.

The 'all a dream' theory assumes all 5 levels are dreamed, all the logic are dreamed up, and finally, the characters develop and change (in their arcs) in the same dream.

This mega dream even less plausible than some of the implausible dreams in the movie.

Not to mention that Nolan took pains to show them 'waking up' in ways that is logical and realistic to people waking up to reality (ie: stimuli being applied -- like being dunked into water or dropped from a great height).

If it was all a dream, why use this painstaking logic?
 
BattleMonkey said:
How is Ellen Page so dull? It was just a dream. It all makes sense now.
Also, JGL. What an empty shell of a character. He had like, two mildly interesting scenes. Well, aside from the action sequences. But what does that have to do with character?

See?

Dream theory makes more sense by the post!
 
It seems like Nolan is drawing a straight line between dreams and movies. Whether "it's all a dream" or not is irrelevant because movies are essentially dreams. They're edited like dreams, follow the logic of dreams, often look like dreams.

At least that's what occurred to me while watching it.
 
Deku said:
Not to mention that Nolan took pains to show them 'waking up' in ways that is logical and realistic to people waking up to reality (ie: stimuli being applied -- like being dunked into water or dropped from a great height).

Because people wake up from dreams without stimuli as well. And while I might not agree with some on it, they like it as it helps fill in gaps in the more contrived plot elements.
 
Would have been interesting if Nolan tackled the "reality surroundings seeping into your dreams" angle. I'm sure I'm not the only one but I tend to wake up from dreams only to realize that it's a direct extension to what is playing on the television screen :lol
 
Yeah, I'm not buying the "Leo's just crazy, it's all in his head" explanation. First because I don't think Nolan would do me like that. And for another reason I won't hint at because it will be major spoilers.
 
BattleMonkey said:
Because people wake up from dreams without stimuli as well. And while I might not agree with some on it, they like it as it helps fill in gaps in the more contrived plot elements.

no no, i meant the process they wake up was meticulously planned based on real world logic (ie: there's some scientific rationale behind it).

The world of Limbo is worlds apart from the top level reality.

A dream would be weird all the way through. some people tried to point out afew implausible things here and there. tight walls, high jumps, but none are like the elevator in Cobb's dreams or the implausible chase through a nondescript city core.

there's a very clear dividing line of 'weirdness' between the top level reality and the movies dreams.

This is just one of my objections, read up to see my objections concerning motivations of characters in this mega dream and the lack of consequences if it was all a dream.
 
BobsRevenge said:
Also, JGL. What an empty shell of a character. He had like, two mildly interesting scenes. Well, aside from the action sequences. But what does that have to do with character?

See?

Dream theory makes more sense by the post!

The whole film I thought JGL was going to be a double-crosser, I was waiting but it never happened.
 
Skiptastic said:
Yeah, I'm not buying the "Leo's just crazy, it's all in his head" explanation. First because I don't think Nolan would do me like that. And for another reason I won't hint at because it will be major spoilers.


You're in the spoiler thread. Or are you spoiling another movie? Or is this thread a dream?
 
Deku said:
Put another way, the characters evolve outside of dreams. What they experience inside the dreams do have a profound effect, but it's always after they kick out that the implications became known and they then re-enter the dreams changed.

The 'all a dream' theory assumes all 5 levels are dreamed, all the logic are dreamed up, and finally, the characters develop and change (in their arcs) in the same dream.

This mega dream even less plausible than some of the implausible dreams in the movie.

Not to mention that Nolan took pains to show them 'waking up' in ways that is logical and realistic to people waking up to reality (ie: stimuli being applied -- like being dunked into water or dropped from a great height).

If it was all a dream, why use this painstaking logic?


I disagree with the first bolded part. these characters have no defining character arcs. they are just plot devices to "get things done" with a little bit of style to some of them. They do not have any history, desires, outside interests or anything that makes them more than action movie staples.

If you can tell me how one of these non-Cobb characters changed due to some outside influence, please tell me as I completely can't remember an instance of this.


As for the second bolded bit, I agree with this. the amount of complexity required to bring everyone back safely implies that there is a real consequence to the mind (getting stuck in Limbo too long) if not done properly.

also:


Mifune said:
It seems like Nolan is drawing a straight line between dreams and movies. Whether "it's all a dream" or not is irrelevant because movies are essentially dreams. They're edited like dreams, follow the logic of dreams, often look like dreams.

At least that's what occurred to me while watching it.


I like this POV, as well.
 
Yea these theories are fucking crazy. No way of knowing which one is right. Oh well, just gonna believe that the top fell. But the theory where the whole movie is a dream also makes sense, just has some holes in it.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
I think I dreamt being in the theatre and the movie was an inception in my own mind.

What if in Batman Begins, everything after Bruce gets off the plane from his training is a dream, then in Batman 3 he wakes up and goes on his first mission and dies.
 
DMczaf said:
What if in Batman Begins, everything after Bruce gets off the plane from his training is a dream, then in Batman 3 he wakes up and goes on his first mission and dies.


Killed in a fist fight with Joseph Gordon-Levitt.
 
DMczaf said:
What if in Batman Begins, everything after Bruce gets off the plane from his training is a dream, then in Batman 3 he wakes up and goes on his first mission and dies.

His parents are deeeeaaaaaad!

Even after seeing the movie, I keep going back to the 3rd trailer. It's really well done.

I'm a nerd
 
PumpkinPie said:
The whole film I thought JGL was going to be a double-crosser, I was waiting but it never happened.

This would have been epic.

I love it when we can make up different scenarios, endings, sub-plots, etc. based around the same story arc. Movies that we can't stop talking about. Love it.
 
SamuraiX- said:
This would have been epic.

I love it when we can make up different scenarios, endings, sub-plots, etc. based around the same story arc. Movies that we can't stop talking about. Love it.

I thought the same thing mainly because I thought it was Decaprio he was fighting in the trailer.
 
Working on reading through the whole thread, but my reaction after seeing it yesterday:

First off, there isn't much point in gushing over how ridiculously awesome and pleasantly challenging the film was since every word on that front that could be said already has been. It's the best film I've seen so far this year and will go down as one of the best heist films ever (much like Nolan fooled everyone into thinking TDK was a superhero film when it was really a crime film about a city, Inception is a heist film disguised as sci-fi---or maybe it's the other way around). So I don't want this to come across as major criticism. But I still had some quibbles with parts:

Much has already been written about the dreamscapes were still basically grounded in our world and not that outlandish, and I realize the plot reasons for that (If they could omnipotently manipulate the dream as it happened without consequences the film would be 20 minutes long). Still, I can't help but think there was a bit of a lost opportunity for world-bending (or similarly cool effects) to make an appearance after that. The film goes out of its way to demonstrate Ariadne's impressive grasp on it, and then right after says they can't do that too much, so what's the point? It felt kind of like the scene was there just as a cool visual set piece because it the plot dictated that it wouldn't happen again. What a tease.

For all the emphasis on Ariadne's ability to draw mazes with a long time-to-complete, I didn't really understand how the geography of the maze and having the subject navigate it was important. We didn't get any sense of the players navigating the mazes and since they took Fischer everywhere they needed him to it didn't seem to matter how elaborate the worlds were. Which leads to:

Snow fight was kind of incoherent and felt like a wasted location. If the design of the building and the surrounding terrain was supposed to be part of the maze it didn't matter because it basically reduced to inside and outside. It didn't help that they were all wearing the same snowsuits so it was impossible to kep track of who was where and what each person's task was, I think there was some dialogue explaining that but it went by too fast. Why were 2 of them climbing down the cliff face? There was just no sense of geography or infiltration in that level which I found kind of frustrating because I'd been led to believe navigating the maze would play a bigger role.

Nevertheless, Academy should just announce tomorrow that they're awarding the Best Editing Oscar early because really, can you imagine trying to take all that raw footage and assembling it into something coherent, let alone this well-paced and engaging? I think I would have run screaming from that job.

I was lucky enough to see the film without having seen any promo material except posters and the first teaser; I didn't even see trailers 2 and 3. So now that I've seen them, I'm surprised how many of the great visuals were thrown in: Cobb's crumbling limbo, what's inside the Vault (sick guy), Ariadne building the bridge, Arthur in zero-g tying the bodies together and in the elevator shaft. I saw all these for the first time in the movie and they blew me away (especially at how seamless they were. CGI? what CGI? Nolan invented zero-g for real, bitches.)

The one flawed shot was when Cobb and Ariadne start walking up the right-angle Paris street, something just looked janky about the transition.

This isn't really a criticism as a thing-I-would-have-liked-different, but I was kind of surprised at how tidy the ending was. The heist succeeded, nobody died, Cobb got his closure, everyone won. It's the first unambiguously victorious ending in Nolan's career, and it was almost a little too...dare I say...Hollywood? Maybe it's just my taste for the dark and ambiguous (which is what draws me to Nolan's films in the first place) but on an intellectual level I think I might have liked something a little more bittersweet, someone getting stuck in Limbo or something. But I realize that's totally subjective and not what Nolan wanted.

That motherfucking hallway fight...goddamn. If anything was wrong with it, it was too short. MOAR AWESOME JGL ZERO-GRAVITY FIGHTING!
 
Here's one of the dream ending theory....

COBB WANTS TO MEET HIS KIDS

This is THE reason i think COBB DOES INCEPTION ON HIMSELF.

COBB eventually meet them in his dream.



Hopefully will post a detailed explanation...
 
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